I am looking for a mid-range that can do everything. I want it to fly into a wind and not flip. I want it to be Low speed stable to overstable and high speed stable as well, not to flippy. I am looking to get it in the Pro type plastic... Elite X or KC Pro. I want to be able to carry multiples of the discs beaten in at different levels. I just dont know which one to choose? Wasp or Roc...?

flip a coin

As always my suggestion is a ching roc. Dead flat means high speed stable, low speed stable (not overstable at all). No understable in the equation.

KC Rocs and Glow Rocs are great. Use glow rocs to beat in faster and KC rocs for a little more over stability when new. Grip is great with both but the KC rocs are stiffer.
I've thrown a new z wasp and they are very over stable but that z plastic won't break in very easily.
Good luck!

for me, wasps and rocs feel REALLY similar.

So I just use a z-wasp as my most overstable midrange and a beat up dx roc as my most understable... and then a couple other rocs in between for straightish shots.

pretty similar disc in most aspects (wasp may be SLIGHTLY more overstable, but not by much... assuming same plastics)

I have heard that discraft paid money to use the roc mold as a prototype and they changed it ever so slightly. I have just heard this and would like to know if this is true because these are two very similar discs.

rocs of all ages and origins

As always my suggestion is a ching roc. Dead flat means high speed stable, low speed stable (not overstable at all). No understable in the equation.


Wasps are more consistently flat on the flight plate. Rocs and Wasps fly similarly. Just handle a few and pick the one that has the best plastic blend for you. KC rocs are stiff, new DX rocs or glow DX are flexible and soft. Champ Glow rocs will be overstable after years of use. Z plastic is also very durable and doesn't usually nick or scuff, I just have never taken to much of the discraft plastic.

Everyone is going to tell you something different. This is because subtle differences in mold and plastic really matter and everyone finds what works best for them. So just grab one roc or wasp that feels good to you and experiement with it. Then keep trying until you find something that works for the most shots and weather conditions for you and THEN buy a stack. I'd hate to buy a stack of any disc to later find a major weakness that makes me hate every one of them

Personally, my favorite roc is a 180 flat top DX Coyote. Starts out with a very flat flight in high speed with slight overstable low speed. Gradually becomes a straight forever disc. Has more glide than a roc and feels better in the hand too. DX Coyotes use a different mold than Champ and Star too... a slight concave indention on the wing adds some stability. Plus the new DX plastic is MONEY for mids - more durable and grippier in more conditions

DX Gremlin

Which beats in faster and which one is more overstable?

The wasp seems to be more overstable than the roc. Discraft's Pro-D plastic on the Wasp or Innova's DX plastic on the roc will beat the quickest.

I havent thrown a Wasp, but from my experience with the Roc I hate it. You cant put any speed on them or they'll worm burn and the only way to get any amount of distance is to throw them like 20 ft. in the air and just let it glide. This is why I like Gator and Goblin because I can throw them fast, flat and low and get tons more distance. The Roc IMO is VERY overrated.

JD, Lot of good feedback on this thread. I'm pretty commited to the Roc. I throw Champion, KC, DX, Glo and Ching. I have a Z-Wasp for a backup to my Champion. Those are overstable and don't breakin fast. KC's are pretty durable but are not grippy. They are a little longer and faster.

If you are a Buzzz fan I would consider just throwing the Wasp too. The Buzzz for me is very close to a Roc in flight but much more comfortable in hand.

the correct answer is: Millenium's QMS (http://www.golfdisc.com/aurorams.shtml)

http://www.golfdisc.com/images/golfdisc_aurorams_quantum.gif

I throw Rocs because they're more readily available to me, although I would say there isn't too much difference between the Roc and Wasp. You can find DX Rocs pretty much anywhere, but Wasps tend to not be as common. Of course, if you're living in other parts of the country (particularly MI or MN) your experience may vary.

To answer an earlier qusetion, I think Discraft's D plastic beats in the fastest, even faster than DX.

Super Roc's !!!!!!

Star Roc's !!!!!!

I just want to let everyone know that I would be purchasing this in the Elite X plastic, so they dont wear down to quickly... How does that plastic compare to the KC Pro plastic in quickness of wear?

The ESP wasp's are suh-weet!....so were Super Roc's! ESP's have grip like the elite-x plastic, but much more durable.

I have 10 super rocs that i like to throw but just dont find them to good for drives

I just want to let everyone know that I would be purchasing this in the Elite X plastic, so they dont wear down to quickly... How does that plastic compare to the KC Pro plastic in quickness of wear?



Elite X wasps are a little more durable than KC plastic. Find a max weight, flat top, x wasp and you will be set. I threw x wasps for awhile until the buzzz came out, now I just have one z wasp and 4 buzzz in the bag.

Very Heavy Midnight Buzzz.
Nuff said.

-Scott Lewis

gateway element is an awsome disc, i used to throw rocs
but not anymore, don't knock it till you try it, it just might make you change your mind!

TK

The elements I have thrown are not nearly as stable as a roc. I hear the Element X or whatever they are going to start calling it would be closer to a wasp or roc.

Throw a Buzzz...It does anything.

Right now I am trying out a Star Roc to see how it compares to the Z-Wasps I usually throw... that being said... throw the Wasp. Why? Because it will always be a Wasp. It won't depend on where is was manufactured, whether or not it was hotstamped. There is no Classic Wasp to get confused with, and if you do decide to move into the high grade plastics you can do so by going to the store.

But really, try out either one. From my experience, if you like one, the other one will work about the same for you. I stuck with the Wasp because I like the durability of the plastic. The DX Rocs I threw beat up too quickly. Stupid trees.... who do they think they are?

Yes the element-X is like a stable roc, very nice flying disc, feels good in the hand and the element is like a nice seasoned roc, will hold whatever line you put on it.

TK

I throw wasps over rocs for one main reason. The wasp is avaliable in all plastics. While I dont want to spend $$$ to have the same options w/ rocs.

Pro D wasps break in faster than DX wasps. They start off a touch more overstable. The Roc's will hold the sweet spot alittle longer, but take longer to get there.


X wasps are more durable and more stable than the KC. New they are actually more overstable than any of the plastic options (other than mabey some of the many varities of champ roc) they break in great and fly well, they are my choice. However X wasps are a limited edtition deal, but still only cost 12$ new, instead of 25-100+.

ESP/Z vs Champ. Easy ESP and Z are avaliable. I dont like the flights of these as much as the previously listed.

and the element X is the best flier new. If you get a domey S plastic one, its durability is comparable to KC pro, and is as stable as a pro D wasp.
There are variants in the E plastic ones, the transparent ones are beefy like Z wasps, while the Opaque ones tend to be between a buzzz and a Roc or wasp.

They dont seem to be as HSS as the wasp or roc, but are more versitle.
The domey S ones would be most comparable to the DX, D, KC, X wasps, and would beat into the straightest flier out of the element X choices.



In the End pick one learn it and stick with it. If some day down the line you get picked up by one of these companies, it will not be hard to learn the new disc, they really are fairly exchangable

I havent thrown a Wasp, but from my experience with the Roc I hate it. You cant put any speed on them or they'll worm burn and the only way to get any amount of distance is to throw them like 20 ft. in the air and just let it glide. This is why I like Gator and Goblin because I can throw them fast, flat and low and get tons more distance. The Roc IMO is VERY overrated.



Wow. Have you ever seen any decent throw a Roc? I too think that they are a bit overrated considering everything else that is out there, but that does not take away from what CAN be done with a Roc. I've seen Ken Climo throw a roc 340', 6-8' off the ground. He throws it hyzer and low, and as the disc sits up flat it creates just enough lift to keep it up. There is enough velocity so that it holds its altitude all while traveling on a dead straight line. Now I understand not everyone gets a chance to play with the champ, but I've seen players in the intermediate level throw Rocs real well also.

Bottom line is, if you throw a Gator and a Goblin farther than a Roc, it is you that is having difficulties and not the Roc. I throw a Buzz because I get a cleaner release than I do with a Roc or Wasp. So for me, this makes my Buzz fly better in the wind than the other two because of the clean release. A little flutter out of the hand throwing into the wind and the flight is done with.

I am looking for a mid-range that can do everything. I want it to fly into a wind and not flip. I want it to be Low speed stable to overstable and high speed stable as well, not to flippy. I am looking to get it in the Pro type plastic... Elite X or KC Pro. I want to be able to carry multiples of the discs beaten in at different levels. I just dont know which one to choose? Wasp or Roc...?



Standard KC Pro Roc is a lot easier to find than an Elite X Wasp. So go with what you can get your hands on.
As far as all the other comments posted after your question ... Seems like everyone want's you to be a LOT more confused than you are.
Pro Roc or X Wasp, you can't go wrong with either one.

I really like X-wasp. I like the grip of the plastic, the pace of the seasoning, and the glide.

Does Discraft make a Crystal Wasp ?

I am looking for a mid-range that can do everything



A well used DX Roc, What's a Wasp?????? "Sorry had to do it"

I throw an X-Wasp and a Z-Wasp. If you're actually comparing the Wasp to the Roc and leaving out all the other midranges the Wasp and Roc differ by the plastic. I know -- the Roc people will scream blaspheme, but the disc is a copy of the Roc. If it's not -- I'm not sure how you could get much closer.

The X-Wasp is most similar to the Super Roc in that it takes a very long time for the disc to wear and seems to get to get to a stable (straight -- why can't the disc golf community stop using the word "stable" -- it's correct usage means "straight" it's common usage usage means "over stable" . . . yeah yeah, what I just typed is confusing unless you actually talk disc stuff with lots of fanatics like I do . . . let's all agree that stable actually means "over stable" and we'll just say straight when we mean straight. Why do I fear the first time I hear "over straight" . . . .sigh.) flight and then retain that period of wear almost indefinitely. I have an X-Wasp that has seen heavy use for 3+ years and still flies true. D-Wasps or DX-Rocs that I have thrown get to this point but then become "flippy" in about the same amount of time. Drivers made with X plastic seem to go right through the worn in stage to extreme flippy way too fast.

The plastic that surprised me that never really took hold is the "special blend" or "star" Roc. Aside from the 2001 CE Roc, I didn't really like the rest of the "CE" Rocs flight characteristics. When the special blend stuff came out I thought for sure that the added grippiness would be a hit with the Roc-heads and they'd throw them alot -- but it hasn't happened in my neighborhood.

I've just started throwing an ESP Wasp and I have high hopes. The plastic has additional grip and isn't nearly as over-stable at slow speeds as the Z is. The ESP also skips much less than the Z. Theses are exactly the reasons that I thought the star Rocs would be popular -- but we'll see, maybe it will wear too quickly.

Whatever -- I realize that all threads will disintigrate into whichever midrange is the favorite of whoever is typing -- seems like I could get good with pretty much any midrange that I've thrown. If I have to compare a Wasp to a Roc . . . .same disc, different plastics.

from what i have get from what you want you should get an esp wasp. they will no tbreak in like the x. i have found the x to be quiet "flippy" the esp i straight to a fault with a great fade that can be counted on. that being said i rely on my z wasp of almost 3 years for any shot 330 and in depending on the terrain. for real close shots i use the warlock or the star aero( a very underrated disc. improved my game by 5 strokes at least). i hope this helps.