does rule 804.06-B ever get enforced? or, has it been left solely to TD discretion?

for those who don't have the rule book memorized like me....

804.06 Grouping and Sectioning

B. All players within a division should be randomly grouped for the first round and grouped by cumulative score for each round thereafter.

I have seen many different ways of doing first round groupings.

What I do is literally just take all the cards from a division mix them up in my hand and then put them on the board accordingly.

However, when you go to some tournaments and see some first round groups, its pretty obvious that the TD did not follow this rule.

are you talking about the first part random groupings or the second part solely by cumlative score? or both?

At the lower levels it certainly seems appropriate to allow reasonable discretion to the TD. For example, I am a low rated rec player. My non- PDGA member friend came to a tournament with me once and we asked the TD to group us together in the first round since he was from out of town and didn't know anybody. That seemed reasonable. Accomodating mother/daughter, father/son etc if it doesn't really screw everybody else up seems reasonable. If somebody is somewhat injured it is kind for the TD to put them on 1 or 18 rather than the hole a half mile away from the parking lot. If somebody seems to always miscount their strokes, its not a bad idea to put a player who is knowledgable about the rules and unafraid of speaking up in that person's group.

In terms of enforcement, there is very little players can do to enforce this rule. It would be more appropriate in the guidelines sent to TD's for tournament management. As for a random shuffling, I don't know of very many TD's that actually do this. Most, as I have done, will put them up in the order players signed up for the event. This can be fairly random, but technically is not exactly random if I tell you how it was ordered. Thereafter I always set it up so that cards are grouped by cumulative score, previous round scores and by last name. I don't know anyone who does not group by cumulative score after the first round.

To explain my grouping if Joe Blow shot a 54 in round 1 and Jim Smith shot 55 then Joe would be ahead of Jim on the Round 2 card. Round two Joe Blow shot a 55 and Jim Smith shot a 54. Their total score is 99, but since Jim Smith shot the better second round, he would be ahead of Joe Blow on the card.

There use to be a tournament in our area that always mixed divisions on the first round. This is a violation of the rule, but it was interesting in many ways. It was very effective in teaching new players the proper conduct in a tournament. For a rec player to see an open player's conduct and maintaining rules helped them to see how the game should be played competitively. So often we put all the divisions together and rec and int players make the same mistakes, repeat the same errors in following rules and spread rule-non-rules. However, that event does not mix divisions anymore.


does rule 804.06-B ever get enforced? or, has it been left solely to TD discretion?

for those who don't have the rule book memorized like me....

804.06 Grouping and Sectioning

B. All players within a division should be randomly grouped for the first round and grouped by cumulative score for each round thereafter.

Whats the problem JUFF?

From the Rules Q&A:



Rule Question: Mixing divisions
Question
Can a TD put players from different divisions in the same group?

Response
Only if absolutely necessary per 804.06; a TD must strive to place players into groups with players from the same division insofar as is possible. That is especially true with regard to the border between pro and am divisions. Pros should play with pros, and ams should play with ams.

A TD may need to mix divisions in order to fill a group, because divisions are rarely evenly divisible by the group size. That is fine. (For example, there may be three senior grandmasters and two women masters at a tournament with groups of five; they may be placed within the same group.)

Exceptions to the grouping constraints may also be obtained by the TD by petitioning the Competition Director.




In the Charlotte Open (A-Tier) we mixed all Pro divisions in the first round. The main reason for that was that there were 4 Pro women and we thought it might be nice for them to see other faces for one of the 4 rounds.

We asked each of them for their preference and they all loved the idea. We also bounced the idea off the top touring Pro's there as well as several seasoned TD's (like Kirk Yoo). All loved the idea.

We used the loophole in the rules to allow it (the rules say "should", not "will" or "must". If anyone would have had a major problem with our decision, we would not have done what we did.

i was just referring to the first group random pairings. it has come to my aTTention that certain players seem to get paired with the same high-level players repeatedly in the first round.

Oh c'mon Juff, you've only gotten paired with me once so far. Be patient, you'll getta see some more majic ;)

Well obviously you are more than likely speaking locally and since I was randomly paired with two 1000 rated players during the first round this past weekend, I'm going to asume you mean me.

If you are meaning me, I am seriously laughing my butt off that you think I have / had anything to do with my first round grouping at Buckhorn or anywhere else I have played.

I mean I did the leaderboard for the DEP Cup and I put myself on hole 4 for the first round b/c that is where I feel in the mix of randomness.

If you are not talking about me, I would love to hear who you think is getting this so called special treatment at tournaments and why you are upset about it.

Mp3 hit the nail on the head, "Should"...so it's perfectly o.k. to bribe, lobby, or sell group spots as long as you feel a little shame while doing so...according to the rulebook

very true.

at the crosstown the last two years Kirk has let people for 20 dollars towards the purse pick a player they wanted to play with.

B/c of that, I was fortunate enough to get to play with the Champ and Barry the last two years.

I think more tournaments could do this and raise money for the purse - it was a very cool idea.

not particularly.... but now that you mention it, how many times have you been paired with schweb in the 1st round?

recently let me think......

FDC's - no
Sneeky Pete - no
Charlotte Open - no
DEP Cup - yes
Hawk Hollow - no
Fall Disc Golf Classic - no
Charleston - no
One Moe - no
Raleigh Winter Jam - no
Buckhorn - yes

Man your claim is looking really good that I always try and play with schweb. The two events I was the TD and didn't play with him, at One Moe and DEP Cup I did the leaderboard and played him just once, starting on the 4th hole.

I had nothing to do with Buckhorn hole assignments this weekend.

I can do the whole year of 2006 if ya want...let's see...

Buckhorn - no
Coastal plains - yes
earlewood - no
azeala - no
frizzak - no
crosstown - no
VA Doubles - no
VA Open - no
Alamance - no
Zebulon - no

then continue the list events from above


3 times in 20 tournaments. WOW

what claim? i just asked a question, you're the one who concluded this was about you. i am more interested in finding out why this is a rule at all, as it seems to be universally left up to the TDs discretion. check the ego, its not personal, its a rules issue.

at the crosstown the last two years Kirk has let people for 20 dollars towards the purse pick a player they wanted to play with.

B/c of that, I was fortunate enough to get to play with the Champ and Barry the last two years.


I had no idea those guys would actually pay to have you on their cards, MtL. :)

I'm glad to know that more than one member of Team Trim is concerned about the rules.

Seriously.

I'm glad to know that more than one member of Team Trim is concerned about the rules.

Seriously.



I'm glad to know that more than one member of the PDGA is concerned about the rules, verily.

What does it matter who you are paired with in the first round of a tournament anyway??

Definitely playing with someone who is having a hot round "lifts" your game, and playing with someone who is sucking "deflates" your game. The better (higher-rated, if you will) player(s) one is playing with, the more advantage one receives, because the better the player, the higher the probability of a hot round & the lesser the probability of sucking.

I usually have the opposite effect when playing with a really good player, esp. when I'm struggling and they are plying good.

Its frustrating and for me, makes things worse from time to time. (see Round 2 of the buckhorn open when Schweb shot a 51 and I shot 61)

You know it wasn't Schweb. You were frustrated because you had to play with the 915. Always fear the 915.

hahahahaha yeah it was very imtimdating.

im sure that my roller that went like 4 feet on my third shot of hole 6 had nothing to do with my frustration - lol

I can see VeganRay's point, this might apply to some players, but not all. As an sub-900 am, I seem to play better when I get down on the bottom third of the cards, when I'm playing against "my people".

I seem to play better when I get down on the bottom third of the cards, when I'm playing against "my people".



Now TThats FUNNY!

I like playing with certain people first round...VeganRAY is correct that the better the player the better effect it has..The truth is, your round can feel horrible compared to theres, but if the only beat you by 3 strokes, you probably have most of the field. Personally, I have favorites to play first rounds with...Schweb is one of them...My brother and any ZZ is good for me as well...Steve Brinster, may be the worst...I like playing with MTL and JEff YAHN...The messiah and A. Beaver are great as well...M. Peckham is allright as well...Brinster is BAD, Bad...he says the same about me.

I like playing with everyone.

My buddy logan was on the lead card Sunday with 4 1000 rated players and he says man I Got a fun card today.

I said "I've never had one that wasn't"

What did Logan say about the 915 that was on his card on Saturday?

he was trembling too hard to speak.

I'm glad to know that more than one member of Team Trim is concerned about the rules.

Seriously.



Seriously?!?

Seriously.

It's a step in the right direction. The more people concerned with the rules, the more the sport will grow!

I think the TD and the TD alone can pick his/her group for the first round. Sometimes even a volunteer...

I agree w/Jeff - why is it a rule? I think its one of the worst rules we have, and when they put in place, I regularly wrote for an exemption when sanctioning my events. If it's a small event - there's no better way to give up and comers the exposure they need to become better tournament players than to group them w/ a pro. If it's a big event, or all pro event, why would it matter what divisional players you play w/if they're all pros anyway?

Silly rule. I regularly mix divisions for the first round - been doing it in sanctioned and non sanctioned events since 1987 - never had a complaint that I can think of.

Well, now you're talking about a different rule from the one Juff raised. There is a rule that groups are to be formed randomly and another rule that as much as possible they are to be segregated by divisions, especially the pros from the ams.

I've been around long enough to see major issues arising from TDs not following one or the other of those two rules. Usually what happens when the rule gets relaxed is it gets more relaxed for some people than for others. The TD goes out and plays in a foursome of his buddies and some other pro goes out and plays with an intermediate woman, a junior boy and an Am Master. If that pro shoots crappy there is one kind of problem and if he shoots great there is a whole 'nother different kind of problem.

I form groups "randomly" by really not paying attention to the names. We use color coordinated leaderboard cards, and I try to just get all the same colors together, and my helper people on the close holes.

But more often than not, Jon does the leaderboard, and I think his process is a little less random here and there. I noticed that if I say anything negative about someone I played with in the morning, they don't seem to be on my card for the next five or six tournaments in the morning. So now I try not to say anything negative.

Personally, I like the format where the first round is as desegregated as possible, no more than one pro per card until you have too many pros, etc. I remember learning a lot from Gunars the first tournament I ever played. I don't know how rec players can possibly learn the rules under the current system. But that is not PDGA so we don't do desegregated morning rounds.

When I was progressing thru the AM divisions, I always liked to play with a Pro on the card.

Sure, everyone likes to play with better players the first round, however, I am HIGHLY against it for this main reason:

Imagine if the front 9 of a course was wide open and the back 9 was heavily wooded. You start on hole 1 and there are mixed divisions. You first 9 holes it is very windy. Meanwhile, someone who started in your division started on hole 10 and is in the woods not feeling the full effect of the wind like you are. As you approach the woods, the winds stop. Now you just played 9 open holes in winds while someone in your division is playing the same holes in no wind. That is just not fair.

By keeping players within a division and on the same part of the course, most of this problem is solved simply b/c all players are on pretty much the same part of the course throughout the round and elimantes most bad luck with "I was on hole X when the high winds were coming in"

Juff...TTupelo comes to mind... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I've been around long enough to see major issues arising from TDs not following one or the other of those two rules. Usually what happens when the rule gets relaxed is it gets more relaxed for some people than for others. The TD goes out and plays in a foursome of his buddies and some other pro goes out and plays with an intermediate woman, a junior boy and an Am Master. If that pro shoots crappy there is one kind of problem and if he shoots great there is a whole 'nother different kind of problem.



I think the PDGA rule about not mixing Am's and Pro's is spot on for these reasons you mention. If you want to give noobs exposure to top level players, do that in your weekly/monthly non-sanctioned events. Or have the Pro's host a clinic for the noobs with entry fees going into the pro purse. Or have the noobs watch the top pros in a final 9.

These kinds of distinctions are a big part of what gives sanctioned events more prestige than the more casual weeklies/monthlies.

I regularly wrote for an exemption when sanctioning my events. If it's a small event - there's no better way to give up and comers the exposure they need to become better tournament players than to group them w/ a pro.



No need to get an exemption. It's called an X-Tier. That's what we ended up doing for one of our sanctioned tournaments. We always mixed all groups the first round anyways in the spirt of Johnny Roberts, for who the tourney is named after. We also wanted to show new TD's that were helping that you should follow the PDGA rules.
Being an AM I think mixing is a great idea. One of my 1st tourneys was mixed and I played with a really cool local PRO that taught me several things that you would never learn from watching (always pick up your disc and mini with your non-throwing hand, rules need to be second, and you can call someone to help them...which you would never do with players in your own division!)
But I definately see the point that a PRO once made when this topic came up...PROs are not in the tourney to teach rules, they are there to compete.
Slightly off topic but...he also mentioned that disc golf is one of the few sports that all you have to do is pay the PRO entry fee and play PRO. You could be in your 1st tourney ever. How much would that screw with someones game??!! A total newbie that doesn't have a clue of the rules. The bottom card would be pretty frustrated, I'd say, by the end of the 4th round.

-mikew

There are plenty of opportunities for Pros and Ams to play on mixed cards if the local organizers want to do that. What I usually see at the local minis is the organizer playing with the same 3 guys, then one other card of 4 pros that always play together ...

If it's such a great idea do it at monthlies or weeklies where there is not as much on the line.

I have had people complain in monthlies and even casual large group rounds on weekends. Obviously, I prefer to play with myself... haha

If you have 2 people who play slower than molasses, there should be a rule that they get creatively punished.

I like when the TD and assistant go behind closed doors to set the groups because then they can hide their randomness and who can argue with that. Maybe everyone...

I think random is a good rule. That being said, I really enjoyed my first round group at Tupelo.

that first round at Tupelo was sweet for sure.

In '98, played my first tourney in KC (Rosedale, Emerald City Open) NOT knowing about the mixed groups in the first round. Not only were the other 3 guys on my card Advanced or likely Pro, one of them Aces our 2nd hole played... :confused: :o At the tee on our 3rd hole I said "WTF?", and they told me I was the only newb there... :D:o

I agree w/Jeff - why is it a rule? I think its one of the worst rules we have, and when they put in place, I regularly wrote for an exemption when sanctioning my events. If it's a small event - there's no better way to give up and comers the exposure they need to become better tournament players than to group them w/ a pro. If it's a big event, or all pro event, why would it matter what divisional players you play w/if they're all pros anyway?

Silly rule. I regularly mix divisions for the first round - been doing it in sanctioned and non sanctioned events since 1987 - never had a complaint that I can think of.



Craig,

I know as Competition Director I fielded a number of complaints from pros about pros mixing with ams in groups in PDGA events. I don't think it's a bad practice, but it's something players should know before they get to their event. Some pros would stay home if they knew they had to play with ams ahead of time. That's why I typically had events such as those register as X-Tier events...just to let players know that something was a little different than the normal procedure.

Chap

I don't know how rec players can possibly learn the rules under the current system.



Do you mix divisions during local leagues and minis? Rec level players could start by learning it there. I think by the time they reach a PDGA event, they should at least know the basics of the rules. Local leagues and minis are the IDEAL place to learn these things.

Chap

As long as we are on the topic, what is the justification for putting players in POOLS at big tournaments?

That seems blatantly unfair.

As long as we are on the topic, what is the justification for putting players in POOLS at big tournaments?

That seems blatantly unfair unless they are absolutely drawn randomly.

As long as we are on the topic, what is the justification for putting players in POOLS at big tournaments?

That seems blatantly unfair.



It eliminates ALL of one grouping from having a "weather" advantage over the other........

IE Charlotte Worlds '97....I believe ONLY 2 PEOPLE from the B Pool made the CUT.... :eek:

Since then, they have grouped the TOP PLAYERS together so they play under "like" conditions.....

yes, I understand that reasoning, it's just not what the rule says

PDGA Competition Rules in section 804, which the Competition Committee is starting to oversee, are gradually being separated from the fundamental Rules of The Game which the Rules Committee oversees. I expect there will be two books eventually. Even now, players on tour, especially those playing NTs, need to read the Player handbook that covers items not in the rulebook like dress code and tie break specifics. It's the same in ball golf where the PGA has special tournament rules that are not in the USGA rulebook.

All of our local tourneys (thrown by Flying Saucer Disc Golf) are structured according to this rule...from a small unsanctioned event up to a B Tier.


sleepy