I'm playing in my first tournament on the 17th, can someone please explain to me how the tiers work???

This document on the Tour page is a good start:
www.pdga.com/documents/td/07TourStandards.pdf (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/07TourStandards.pdf)

Here are the other ones you may find helpful:
www.pdga.com/documents/td/2007tourinfo.php (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/2007tourinfo.php)

How can we explain how it works when we are busy debating whether it works? :D Click on Home in the upper left of your screen. Then click on "2007 PDGA TD/Tour Information (Updated 1/29/07)". Then read the 2007 Tour Standards document, the Table of Divisions and Points and maybe even the sanctioning agreement. That should raise any questions you don't know to ask.

Alright thanks for the help...how do I know which tier to join at the touney though or are you automatically placed in a specific tier???

The event itself is a specific tier level. Perhaps you're referring to which division to enter? The guidelines for entering divisions as a beginner are also shown in those documents. Typically, a true beginner in the sport should enter the Recreational division. Those who have been players for few years but this is their first sanctioned event may want to try the Intermediate division.

Well yea i've been playing for about 3 years this is just my first tournament, so once I get there do I get to choose to go into AMs intermediate or what??

Yes. You can choose to the extent the tournament director approves. There are some situations where the TD knows the player from local leagues and feels they should be playing in the top Advanced division based on their scores on the course. However, in most cases, I can't see a TD requiring you to play in a division higher than Intermediate. That's what I would also recommend for your first event. Even if you know the course well and the scores you shoot there, there's something about playing in an event that makes those holes seem and play more challenging. Relax and enjoy it.

Thanks Chuck...I wanted to ask you this too..I'm trying to get a course installed in a park thats in my area, would be the initial steps to do this????

Read some of the documents on this website. There's a lot of info covering your questions already available on the PDGA site. In addition, I would ask some of the people listed as course contacts in the PDGA Directory for courses in your area. Course info: www.pdga.com/cd_start.php (http://www.pdga.com/cd_start.php) Read the San Francisco proposal for starters.

Have you played the tournament course layout before? Call the TD and tell him/her what you normally shoot. They'll tell you what division you should join.

We had a guy play one of the local events who signed up in Rec but he would have come in 2nd in Advanced. He had never played a tournament before (but played every day for 3+ years).

I have a question regarding divisions. I posted this in another forum, but felt this would be more appropriate.

I noticed a tournament played last weekend had a winner in the Intermediate division that has a ranking of 931. The information I read stated that Intermediate was available to players with rankings of <915.

Looking over tournaments I actually find that there are many tournaments with intermediate players with rankings over 914. Shouldn't these players be required to play up in Advanced? Is the <915 ranking for intermediate optional or just for guidance?

I have a question regarding divisions. I posted this in another forum, but felt this would be more appropriate.

I noticed a tournament played last weekend had a winner in the Intermediate division that has a ranking of 931. The information I read stated that Intermediate was available to players with rankings of <915.

Looking over tournaments I actually find that there are many tournaments with intermediate players with rankings over 914. Shouldn't these players be required to play up in Advanced? Is the <915 ranking for intermediate optional or just for guidance?



Should have happened...BUT there is a "clause" that allows players "in a series" to continue to play in a division as long as their rating does not increase MORE than 20 points above the allowed limit....

This MUST be approved by the Comp Director...
there are also a list of other things....

You can find this in the <font color="green"> Competition Manual </font> (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/07CompetitionManual.pdf)

TDs are not supposed to allow players with ratings over the max to participate in ratings-protected divisons.

It could be that the player's rating at the time was within his division and has since been raised above the 914 max.

TDs are not supposed to allow players with ratings over the max to participate in ratings-protected divisons.

It could be that the player's rating at the time was within his division and has since been raised above the 914 max.



the only exception is if the player is involved in a points series race that he started at the beginning of the year when he was elidgable to compete in intermediate.

The <915 rule for intermediate is a requirement. A couple of caveats are in order.
a) If there was a rating update right before the tournament (2 weeks I believe), they can play in the division appropriate under that previous rating. If the tournament was last weekend (2/17-18), then the last update 1/29 was close, but not close enough.
b) For older tournaments, the rating shown is the current rating, not the rating at the time of the tournament, therefore historical checking is not easily done.

Remember that when you're looking at older results, the current rating of the player is shown, not the one they had before the event. In addition, players who have pre-registered for an event get a grace period for events up to 2 weeks after a ratings update. If a new player's rating is based on less than 4 rounds, they can appeal to the Tour Manager for an exemption. That's not to say the TD didn't make a mistake in some cases.

a) If there was a rating update right before the tournament (2 weeks I believe), they can play in the division appropriate under that previous rating.



You guys are getting good. Thanks for the help. The key is they had to have pre-registered in those events before the ratings update. You don't get the exemption if you see your rating went up and then try to register in the event in your old lower division. Too late.

Remember that when you're looking at older results, the current rating of the player is shown, not the one they had before the event. In addition, players who have pre-registered for an event get a grace period for events up to 2 weeks after a ratings update. If a new player's rating is based on less than 4 rounds, they can appeal to the Tour Manager for an exemption. That's not to say the TD didn't make a mistake in some cases.



The tournaments I'm referring to aren't old tournaments, and the update didn't push anyone over the edge.

http://www.pdga.com/schedule/event.php?TournID=6494

If you want you can see the rating history of the winning player in intermediate. His rating has never been below 927.

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=6490#Intermediate

Here is another example. There are 914+ players in 10th and 13th place. Their rating histories also show they were over 914 for quite a long time before the tournaments.

I could pull up more examples, but that's really not the point. I mainly want to know who is responsible for ensuring the player is in the right division and if there are any steps in place to enforce the rating/division requirements.

If the rating rules are a requirement and they are being broken, who in the end is responsible for that? If the rule isn't going to be enforced and there are no penalties for breaking it, why bother having the rule?

Remember that when you're looking at older results, the current rating of the player is shown, not the one they had before the event. In addition, players who have pre-registered for an event get a grace period for events up to 2 weeks after a ratings update. If a new player's rating is based on less than 4 rounds, they can appeal to the Tour Manager for an exemption. That's not to say the TD didn't make a mistake in some cases.



This event happened last weekend.

The player's rating history (going back to April 2001) has never been below 915.

Methinks the TD blew it on this one.

The TDs are responsible and the Tour Manager reviews the results. I'm disappointed that TDs aren't paying more attention since they get the ratings for players in their region right before the event so they can check. It's almost like an Intermediate player needs to check the ratings on their PDA for everyone in their division before playing.

Nice to see 3 1000 rated rounds in the intermediate division. Yikes!

The TDs are responsible and the Tour Manager reviews the results. I'm disappointed that TDs aren't paying more attention since they get the ratings for players in their region right before the event so they can check. It's almost like an Intermediate player needs to check the ratings on their PDA for everyone in their division before playing.



Let me mention that I didn't play in any of these tournaments. I'm just trying to learn all of the PDGA rules, and its odd that there is a rule that just doesn't have to apply.

I hear people saying that this is a required rule, and that the TD should check, but what happens when they don't? It seems a bit unusual to have a required rule with no penalty for ignoring it. It would be like having a falling putt be illegal, but its totally up to you if you want to obey the rule. No penalty.

Food for thought for future rules. I'm just an amateur, but I like rules to apply. It sucks for all the real amateurs. By having no repercussions, it condones the behaviour by the players involved, and the TD. Why bother checking if there is no reason to?

I don't think all the resposibility should be on the TD. Players should know what division they are eligible for, and if they play in the wrong one, there should be some consequence.

The only leverage available to the Tour Manager is to not allow the TD to run events in the future. Not the best solution. I think the TD should have to make good by boosting the payouts of players finishing below the ratings offender(s).

I thought there was something that placed the onus on the player. I thought I read somewhere that a player would lose their PDGA points for the offending tournament and face a possibile suspension for playing in lower division than they were eligible for.

Maybe I'm imagining things, but it seems reasonable to me. You can't really take away their winnings after the event, but you could certainly assign them a DQ after the fact.

That is a pretty alien concept for disc golf, however, personal responsibility for your own actions and all. :p

I thought there was something that placed the onus on the player. I thought I read somewhere that a player would lose their PDGA points for the offending tournament and face a possibile suspension for playing in lower division than they were eligible for.

Maybe I'm imagining things, but it seems reasonable to me. You can't really take away their winnings after the event, but you could certainly assign them a DQ after the fact.

That is a pretty alien concept for disc golf, however, personal responsibility for your own actions and all. :p



I know Robert Sotta fairly well....he used to live in Columbia, MO. I haven't seen him in about 5 years. The guy has an absolute cannon for an arm, but he hasn't played a whole lot of disc golf in the last 5 years. I'd be willing to bet that Robert had no clue he even had a rating, much less what it was. He probably just figured he hadn't played in a couple of years, so he'd try intermediate. I know if someone had told him he couldn't play in intermediate, he'd have played advanced instead.

Chap

PS Did the Intermediates play different tee boxes than the Open and Advanced? I have a hard time believing Robert would have finished only one shot behind Coda playing the same course configuration.

I thought there was something that placed the onus on the player. I thought I read somewhere that a player would lose their PDGA points for the offending tournament and face a possibile suspension for playing in lower division than they were eligible for.

Maybe I'm imagining things, but it seems reasonable to me. You can't really take away their winnings after the event, but you could certainly assign them a DQ after the fact.

That is a pretty alien concept for disc golf, however, personal responsibility for your own actions and all. :p



I'm a fan of personal responsibility. I think it does fall on the player to register in the proper division, just like it falls on the player to know the rules. If you didn't know it was a two-stroke penalty for turning in the cards late, you still get the penalty, along with everyone else on your card. There need to be very specific penalties for being in the wrong division.

That being said, it also falls to the TD to keep an eye on these things. If I can look over a list of registered players on PDGA.com and identify people in the wrong division in just 30 seconds, then the TD can do the same thing. Its not much to ask that a TD check the ratings of the registered players to make sure they are in the right division. If there is someone in the wrong division, then they need to re-register. If a male registered in the Women's division, no one would ignore that. While that is an extreme example, its still a wrong division.

I guess what I'm taking from this thread is that currently, rankings are only a recommendation, and if the TD has no problem with a person playing in a lower division, or doesn't notice, then there is no penalty and no change.

Perhaps a change is in order for next year?

Maddisen (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=20863) is responsible for making sure players don't play below their rating. She's only 13 so she doesn't get to every tournament. When Maddisen doesn't show up, Kiralyn (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=16008) does it. If Maddisen and Kiralyn both don't show up, probably it doesn't get done.

Every weekend you can find someone who played below their rating.

I think there are almost never any consequences for this, but I don't think anyone has ever been caught red handed cheating at this, either. Usually it is some guy who didn't know he had a rating and a TD who was too understaffed to be checking every rating.

PS Did the Intermediates play different tee boxes than the Open and Advanced? I have a hard time believing Robert would have finished only one shot behind Coda playing the same course configuration.


yes different T-boxes on some holes but not all

From the Competition Manual


Section 2: Division Qualifications
2.1. General
A. Players are not allowed to enter a division for which they are ineligible. Please see The Table of PDGA Tour Player Divisions for specifics.
B. A player is solely responsible for knowing what division(s) they are eligible to compete in. Entry into an ineligible division may result in disqualification from the event and/or suspension from PDGA events.

Doesn't the competition manual contradict the sanctioning agreement on the issue of responsibility?

The answer would be "yes, the two documents are contradictory in that regard."

From the Competition Manual


Section 2: Division Qualifications
2.1. General
A. Players are not allowed to enter a division for which they are ineligible. Please see The Table of PDGA Tour Player Divisions for specifics.
B. A player is solely responsible for knowing what division(s) they are eligible to compete in. Entry into an ineligible division may result in disqualification from the event and/or suspension from PDGA events.




See, I did read that thing. :)

I want to amend my initial statement in the thread and say that personal responibility for one's actions is in short supply in the world today. Disc golf shouldn't be singled out.

If the results of tourneys were reviewed right away and all players with ratings too high for the divisions they played in were DQ'd after the fact, I believe it would not take long for players to pay attention. Maybe a 1 month suspension for a 2nd offense and 3 months for a third. It would provide TDs an opportunity to distinguish themselves from other TDs by providing the ratings-checking service. It's hard to get TDs, so we don't really want to suspend them.

As it seems to be now, there is absolutely no risk for a player to enter a lower division and see if they get found out. Zero risk. Simply get moved to the right division if you get found out.

There is zero risk at tournaments where all divisions are playing the same course at the same time from the same tees. Once you get away from that scenario, if a player is found out half way through the morning round, there might not be a way for him to continue playing the tournament if he played the morning round from the wrong tees or played the wrong course or is there on the wrong day.

Okay, my oversight on failing to consider the "found out after the tournament has started but before the awards ceremony." :)

Other than being discovered during the tournament, there is no risk in trying to get over.

From the TDs perspective, it should be like playing Masters. If you say you are eligible for Masters, I'm not going to card you. TDs that card the Masters would be providing an addition service over TDs like me that don't card the older players, just like TDs who check the ratings prior to tee off provide a service that some other TDs don't provide.

I don't think all the resposibility should be on the TD. Players should know what division they are eligible for, and if they play in the wrong one, there should be some consequence.



Oh, Oh, I suggest branding!

BTW, when you use the PDGA website to post your pre-registration, it displays the players by division with their current ratings. This makes it very easy to check the ratings of your players, and uploading the pre-reg list really isn't too tough once you do it once.

Another nice resource for TDs provided by the PDGA.

I used to use a custom spreadsheet with lookup tables to verify PDGA membership and rating, but the PDGA website is way easier. :)

PS Did the Intermediates play different tee boxes than the Open and Advanced? I have a hard time believing Robert would have finished only one shot behind Coda playing the same course configuration.


yes different T-boxes on some holes but not all



Then they should have been rated differently.

Chuck should note this for ratings purposes for this event.

Chap

From the Competition Manual


Section 2: Division Qualifications
2.1. General
A. Players are not allowed to enter a division for which they are ineligible. Please see The Table of PDGA Tour Player Divisions for specifics.
B. A player is solely responsible for knowing what division(s) they are eligible to compete in. Entry into an ineligible division may result in disqualification from the event and/or suspension from PDGA events.





And where can a player without a computer get a copy of this Competition Manual? I tried to get these printed multiple times as Comp Dir (and once after that), to no avail (BoD didn't agree). Most players don't carry a laptop with them on the course, even if the course had wireless access.

I'm not saying Robert knew or didn't know this rule, but seeing that this was only instituted in the most recent manual, and Robert hadn't played in a tournament since 2004, and since the manual is not available in printed form, it is at least possible he was unaware of the rule, and since the TD didn't bother to check, he entered the wrong division.

Chap

I don't know who Robert is, and I certainly don't assign any bad intentions to him.

For the sake of this discussion it doesn't even matter who Robert is because this scenario seems to happen over and over again in all different areas with different players for whatever reasons. No sense in singling anyone out yet.

What we seem to have here is Yet Another PDGA Rule That Is Not Enforced. (YAPRTINE) Or more correctly, YAPRTINE evenly. So.....since the last thing we need at sanctioned tournaments is YAPRTINE, maybe we can figure out a way to enforce this one. I check the tourneys I run. I check the tourneys I play in when the pre-reg is posted. I try mightily not to say anything when I see a player pre-regged in Rec with a 879 rating, because why should I care and I'm already considered a rules d<font color="black">i</font>ck. But somehow I usually end up saying something before the event.

What is the answer? It's easy to pick out the offenders early in the season like now. It's quite a bit tougher at the end when regional points series' are finishing up.

And where can a player without a computer get a copy of this Competition Manual?



Furthermore, if a member does not have a computer how would he know his rating? When many online pound the servers near the time ratings come out so that they can have the immediate gratification, it may seem foreign that some don't know/care. Yes a players rating is on his membership card, but based off my card, the rating printed is from the September 2006 update.

If the competition manual is supposed to be followed as an addendum to the rule book, at the very least it should be sent out to certified officials.

I don't know who Robert is, and I certainly don't assign any bad intentions to him.

For the sake of this discussion it doesn't even matter who Robert is because this scenario seems to happen over and over again in all different areas with different players for whatever reasons. No sense in singling anyone out yet.

What we seem to have here is Yet Another PDGA Rule That Is Not Enforced. (YAPRTINE) Or more correctly, YAPRTINE evenly. So.....since the last thing we need at sanctioned tournaments is YAPRTINE, maybe we can figure out a way to enforce this one. I check the tourneys I run. I check the tourneys I play in when the pre-reg is posted. I try mightily not to say anything when I see a player pre-regged in Rec with a 879 rating, because why should I care and I'm already considered a rules d<font color="black">i</font>ck. But somehow I usually end up saying something before the event.

What is the answer? It's easy to pick out the offenders early in the season like now. It's quite a bit tougher at the end when regional points series' are finishing up.



I realize all of this. What I'm saying is that the TDs need to bear the burden of checking ratings for players in their events, because they are the ones who SHOULD know the rules. You can hold the player responsible, and I don't know if Robert has a computer or not. I do know he's a fair indivdual, so I'm sure if he'd known he couldn't compete in Intermediate, he would have moved up to Advanced. I'm sure he's not alone in that. Intermediates are often players who don't have much experience, they sometimes need such guidance.

I know that there are a NUMBER of similar incidents in various tournaments throughout the country. The problem is, this is a very simple thing to fix if the TD checks player ratings before he lets a guy into a division. It's impossible to fix after the fact.

Chap

It's easy if the player is pre-registering.

It's pretty tough if you are trying to get the last 20 players registered and start the players meeting in 30 minutes.

It's easy if the player is pre-registering.

It's pretty tough if you are trying to get the last 20 players registered and start the players meeting in 30 minutes.



Exactly!!
:D

It's easy if the player is pre-registering.

It's pretty tough if you are trying to get the last 20 players registered and start the players meeting in 30 minutes.



Exactly!!
:D


Cool. So it's just another rule that won't be enforced and should be ignored. Just like all the other rules. :p

The PDGA: Go ahead and put yourself at a competitive disadvantage by playing by our rules in our sanctioned events.

I understand how you feel, but I don't think this is one of those situations. The violations of the format requirement have been inadvertant every time someone has pointed them out and gotten the facts together. Or, everyone concerned consented, like when that young woman played Pro Master or when I played Pro Women. :eek: If there were any cheating here, there'd be consequences. When it is just stupidity [or consensual fun] like it almost always has been, not that much enforcement is needed.

If any intermediate is worried about a clueless advanced player playing in their division, they should check who is in their division and bring it to the TD's attention if someone is out of place.

Bruce, by the same token almost all wide-open shot fairway runup foot faults are done by accident with no devious intention of cheating. (I can't imagine anyone saying to themselves "I am going to land a foot to the left and slightly past my lie on this here wide-open shot.") Yet you and I will be at a distinct competitive disadvantage when we make certain that we land our plant foot on the LOP and within 30cm of the mark.

I guess what you are saying is that the status quo there is also fine, and that a competitive disadvantage is the price you have to pay for following the rules.

At least we aren't pretending now. We might as well state the facts of the situation.

It's easy if the player is pre-registering.

It's pretty tough if you are trying to get the last 20 players registered and start the players meeting in 30 minutes.



Exactly!!
:D


Cool. So it's just another rule that won't be enforced and should be ignored. Just like all the other rules. :p

The PDGA: Go ahead and put yourself at a competitive disadvantage by playing by our rules in our sanctioned events.



NOT...ALL my events...only 1 now...are PRE-REG only.....

It is easy to double check using the PDGA's Scoring page...

NOT so terribly hard to do as a TD...It takes about 1 minute of my time :p
AND eliminates this problem.... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
:D

The scenario is like someone getting mugged in the street, everyone else expects someone else to call the police, in the end no one does and thats sucks. But if everyone called the police and they got flooded with calls then that also might suck or slow down response.

So realistically someone needs to accept the responsibility of checking things like player ratings matching divisions. The person in the best position to do this is the TD, now I am not saying the TD must perform this task solely but perhaps delegate it to someone who they know will or likes to help out with running the tournament. There is no reason if it is a pre-reg tourney that a player with a 930 rating should be playing Intermediate Am, its a down right travesty!

If there is registration at the event then its the players responsibility to ensure they entered the correct division prior to play. If the tourney is two days, the TD should verify the registration division lists against the pdga player rating for each player that night and inform the next day anyone violating the division they are playing in that they will not receive any prizes for finishing well in that division. If the course played is the same they can move up to the division they are supposed to be in, if not they donated that week and learned a valuable lesson! DNF them so no points or prize shift happening in the ranks.

It may suck, but its the only fair practice for all the other entrants that played by the rules. We need to stop worrying about pissing off the person offending the rules and worry about the impression we are imposing on those who are following the rules. Besides I don't know any place in the world that ignorance is a good defense for breaking rules!

If the competition manual contradict the rule book, (the person who notices the errror) inform the BOD to fix it, and then issue the competition manual in a supplement to the rules manual and publish it in the disc golf world news, all members get that whether they like it or not. Heck I don't now why that stuff is not in every issue of that **** magazine, we pay for that thing with our membership it might as well serve a purpose in the regulation of our sport along side the promotion of it.

TDs do a lot, and I would rather have a 940 rated player win Rec and a 990 player win Int than not have a PDGA sanctioned tournament to play in because the TD that was going to run the tournament has been suspended because s/he didn't catch someone playing in the wrong division in a previous tournament.

TDs do a lot, and I would rather have a 940 rated player win Rec and a 990 player win Int than not have a PDGA sanctioned tournament to play in because the TD that was going to run the tournament has been suspended because s/he didn't catch someone playing in the wrong division in a previous tournament.



I understand what you are saying Rhett but there needs to be checks and balance in place to protect those that are doing everything right. I didn't say burn the TD at the stake! How come everything on this forum goes straight to extremes as if it is the only case that will ever happen.

I agree Td's do immense amounts of work in organizing and running tournaments and I believe all TDs should have a staff to help them out, with things like this! But in the end there is a set of agreements that the PDGA has with a TD and this seems like a good one to expect TD's to comply with.

I have an excel spreadsheet that does score management, it does watch for players playing outside of their rating and will notify the TD of this when verifying eligibility of players. However, if you don't have a computer to run this, it won't work. I can tell you this, the TD is supposed to get a copy of player status to check whether they are current or not, open or am, age allowed or not. This has worked in the past, before the use of these new fangled computers.

To some extent you can tell whether a player is probably too young to play in Masters by looking at them. However, you can't tell their rating level by looking. Perhaps players need to attach arm bands at registration with their rating on it instead of an entry number like marathons...

I'm playing in my first tournament on the 17th, can someone please explain to me how the tiers work???



This was the original post on this thread. :confused:

Hehe...you have just witnessed the PDGA DISCussion Digression Syndrome....but hey, some of the best discussions on this board happen because of thread drifts. It is funny sometimes to compare posts of some threads....

In defense of our off-topicness, the original poster was talking about which division to play in, not about tiered events. It was just the wrong terminology. So we're not that far off, right?