The premise to this thread is that lots of tournaments is bad for pros and maybe adv players as well, whereas lots of small local tournaments is good for recreational players and drawing new tournament players. In other words, I believe the pdga really needs to focus on changing the tournament format. The one size fits all tournaments are just not going to work as well in the future.

The problem with the current system for pro players is that we are not all playing the same tournament on most weekends. In Iowa we draw roughly 15-25 open players/tournament. The same is true in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Kansas, Missouri, and Illinois. Most of our tournaments are happening simultaneously within no more than 3-4hrs from each other. If we were all playing the same tournament each week, the field could be 100-150 deep. This could create purses worth playing for. There would actually be reason for me to practice and start acting like a professional player. This would also help in bringing in sponsorship.

The other thing that is happening at tournaments using only one course and trying to offer every division is they are selling out. This hurts participation from new players. I understand the constraints at the Memorial and the USDGC, but this sport is simply not big enough to be turning people away.

There are two things I'd like to see changed. One is to limit the number of tournaments that offer pro divisions. The other is to mandate a minimum field requirement. I'd like to see a tournament like the Memorial be required to go to two weekends. They are hurting the touring pros by limiting the number of hacks like myself who can't commit two months out. This leads me to preregistration pros and cons, but that will have to wait...

I agree 100%. "Pros" shouldn't just be playing for each other's money. If that is all a TD can muster, he should not be allowed to run pro divisions. If those tournaments weren't everywhere, every weekend, the pros would be more concentrated at the B and A tiers.

Jon and I will probably continue to run crappy tournaments for pros as long as the PDGA allows. Someone stop us. We cannot. :D

"Pros" shouldn't just be playing for each other's money. If that is all a TD can muster, he should not be allowed to run pro divisions.



Can you please elaborate? What I am reading into this is that you are implying that TDs must go out to bust their humps to raise money and fork it over to some guys who happen to be gifted at throwing plastic well. Am I reading you correctly?

IMO, true DG promoters have better places to spend any money they raise - better places both for the long term growth and health of the sport AND to get the sponsors' the most bang for their buck (so hopefully they will be perpetual sponsors).

I'm not busting my butt to raise money for the pros. I don't think anyone should have to. I think those of us who aren't going to, shouldn't be allowed to run pro divisions is all. But if I can run pro divisions and just give them their money back, I'm fine with that too. I just don't think it is right to run the pro side like a poker game.

Both of you guys are right and probably don't disagree as much as first glance would indicate. If a tournament is going to have pro divisions, then it should be a *professional* tournament. Tournaments like the Memorial and the USDGC are successful because they are the focus of those given areas for an entire year. Des Moines was able to host quite a tournament in '04 when it was the focus for the better part of a year and a half.

My solutions make some assumptions that would be contrary to the status quo. For instance, I would limit the number of tournaments that offer pro divisions to no more than 2/weekend across the country. This would mean that many current pro players would not be pros anymore. Being a pro player would actually mean something.

Now on the issue of playing for each other's money, this isn't necessarily a problem if there are enough players. If there were 150 open players at a tournament with a $100 entry and they only paid something like 20% of the field, money could be made. Nobody is getting hurt too badly, but now it's a tournament worth travelling for. There are going to be those that say they play for fun and that's too expensive, well guess what, maybe you shouldn't be playing *professionally*.

I mentioned preregistration earlier. I understand why it's necessary and why it works. However, many players cannot commit to travelling more than a month out. I believe that certain size tournaments ought to be required to allow a certain size field. For instance, an A tier Am tournament ought to hold up to roughly 360 players (4 courses worth), and a C tier should hold at least 180 players if pros are allowed. The bottom line is that I don't think these little one day/one course tournaments are doing anything but making a few bucks for the pdga. Many of these tournaments could/should be consolidated into larger more professional events.

There are only 285 players in North America under age 40 with ratings over 984, which we've been referencing as the ratings break where an Open player can be regularly competitive. Of course, older pros over 984 (another 140) might join the fun. In addition, players under that rating level might play if you let them. I'm not sure the numbers are there yet to effectively pull off this consolidation concept when you would have to draw something like 1 out of 5 potential players scattered around North America just to fill a 72-player Open field for a weekend event.

So what you're really after is more unsanctioned tourneys. Even if that's not your intent, it doesn't matter, that's what you'll get.

... 150 open players at a tournament with a $100 entry and they only paid something like 20% of the field, money could be made.



This looks more like a troll all the time. "Professional" tourneys should be working towards a deeper payout until 100% of the field cashes. Then the "gambling for each others entry fees" people can STHU.

This looks more like a troll all the time. "Professional" tourneys should be working towards a deeper payout until 100% of the field cashes. Then the "gambling for each others entry fees" people can STHU.


That's worst case scenario.

There are only 285 players in North America under age 40 with ratings over 984


I wonder how the PGA gets away with only 150 players.

There are only 285 players in North America under age 40 with ratings over 984


I wonder how the PGA gets away with only 150 players.


People are willing to pay to watch them play, so they can draw the line at 150 (or whatever it is. I'll trust you it's 150) and say "You must jump through these hoops of ours with these results before we will consider lettign you play for our sponsors money. And then you must continue to jump through these other hoops or we'll send you home after the season."

Since no one is willing to pay to watch disc golfers play, anyone can play pro whenever they want.

There are only 285 players in North America under age 40 with ratings over 984


I wonder how the PGA gets away with only 150 players.



If you paid attention to the PGA. You would see that they drew 115,000 spectators to yesterdays event in AZ
.
At an average of $30 per person thats ALOT of CASH to pull in. And that was only a Friday.<font color="red">170,000 expected today &amp; tomorrow /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif </font>

Its REAL easy to have that much money when you have that many "Outside" people putting money into it....Not to mention the sponsors on top of it.

We CAN NOT compare ourselves to the PGA...we are in no way close to being on the same scale........

The PGA also ONLY pays those who make the CUT which is around the top 72 players or so....the other 78 have to get back in the car a drive to the next venue...where most of them are sleeping in their cars...trying to earn a paycheck.. :p

This looks more like a troll all the time. "Professional" tourneys should be working towards a deeper payout until 100% of the field cashes. Then the "gambling for each others entry fees" people can STHU.


That's worst case scenario.


If you want to continue playing for entry fees then you are correct, sir.

The fact is that a truly professional sporting event pays players from top to bottom. You think last place at a NASCAR/WPT/PBA/NBA/PGA whatever event , gets nothing ? Developing a professional class requires this payout structure eventually become reality.

I see you failed to answer my assertion that this proposal would do nothing more than encourage TDs to offer more unsanctioned events since the open players want a tourney to play next weekend.

You guys are right as always. Everything we are doing right now is gold and should not be improved upon.

Everything we are doing right now is gold and should not be improved upon.




New ideas are great. They just have to be realistic and doable, not just wishful thinking. Organizing TDs is slightly easier than herding cats. New ideas have to start somewhere. Get some TDs together in your area to run 3 or 4 Am only events to raise cash for one Pro only event and show that it can work. If it does then maybe others will follow. They've discussed a similar concept in Texas but I'm not sure how far they got.

You guys are right as always. Everything we are doing right now is gold and should not be improved upon.


Actually, this is the first time I've been right but thanks for noticing :)

Like a famous television gangster once said when confronted with someone who wanted something that wasn't going to be, "I want to 'do' Angie Dickinson, see which one of us gets lucky first."

Consider the Boston Marathon; this is about the longest running annual sporting event in the world. It's been held every year for 111 years (except a couple years in WWII). Until sometime in the 1980 or 1990s the winner was awarded a laurel wreath and a trophy. Now they get cash, but it was a very contentious transition. It's similar to DG in that the race was a local and/or niche phenomenon for most of it's history. Now, it's broadcast live around the world to billions of people. The event grew, but it grew on the backs of people who loved the event for what it was not what they could get out of it.

If you want someone to pay you to do what you love to do, then you better love doing something that people are willing to pay you to do (hehehe). Either that or help other people love it. I don't think people will be convinced by the suggestions you make for a problem that's likely not even a problem but is rather a personal decision. It reads like an unwillingness to practice hard enough to get better at this game because the carrot someone's holding up ain't tasty enough. Sorry, I doubt anyone will buy this argument for a dollar, much less the $100 MSRP for this new and improved tourney system.

Pre-reg is bad ?! Sorry, I know even a stopped clock is right twice a day, but . . .

There's no fun like Chilly Dog Winter League fun !

I'm confused Justin. You are talking about making the PDGA and events better for professionals. You want to see fewer tournaments but more money in the tournaments that are for pros. You have suggestions for events (some of which are realistic) and you have lots of ideas about how we can improve the entire system.

However, when I click on your player info I see you are a consistently cashing, 989 rated pro, but yet you applied for amnesty to skip out of the $25 difference? I'm confused? Is there something I'm missing? If I'm erroneous here please just let me know and I'll retract everything.

Again, I'm all about slow, realistic, continued growth. I promote this sport as my full time career so no one wants this more than I do, I just think we have to support the people that are out there doing the work and not just talking about it.

If you wish to continue this via PM I'm cool with that too.

Ter

I'm confused Justin. You are talking about making the PDGA and events better for professionals. You want to see fewer tournaments but more money in the tournaments that are for pros. You have suggestions for events (some of which are realistic) and you have lots of ideas about how we can improve the entire system.

However, when I click on your player info I see you are a consistently cashing, 989 rated pro, but yet you applied for amnesty to skip out of the $25 difference? I'm confused? Is there something I'm missing? If I'm erroneous here please just let me know and I'll retract everything.

Again, I'm all about slow, realistic, continued growth. I promote this sport as my full time career so no one wants this more than I do, I just think we have to support the people that are out there doing the work and not just talking about it.

If you wish to continue this via PM I'm cool with that too.

Ter



DOH! /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

You didn't miss anything. I'm 32. I'm married with 2 kids who are both playing sports now. I'm an owner/operator for one business and may be taking on another. I'm in the worst shape of my life. I have no business playing *professionally*. I don't practice. I don't care enough to take tournaments seriously. If I had it to do all over again I would never have moved up. I enjoy the competition and am good enough to compete as a pro locally, but I have no business playing large tournaments. It's not that I couldn't compete if I worked at it, but there's no incentive in the current system. If the majority of tournaments continue to be *get-togethers*, then I don't want to pay $50+ to play in them. And I sure as heck don't want to pay $75/year to have the right to pay those entries. I may play amateur this year. I haven't decided yet. If I'm not going to put 100% into tournaments, then I'm going to play them for fun. It's unfortunate that the *amateur* system pays so much. The fact that there are prizes involved is actually the only reason I wouldn't play amateur. I'd rather pay $20 and play for a trophy (or a ribbon for that matter). I'm just there to play in a structured format for a little bit of competition. And the only reason I cashed as consistently as I did is because half the field gets paid. At least half of those cashes were completely undeserved and would be better spent added to the top 10% of the field.

I'd rather pay $20 and play for a trophy (or a ribbon for that matter).



You should be able to do that in several regional events if the TDs allow Trophy Only entries.

....but they don't.

Unless Snelson, Huckaby, Par 72 and others here have changed their policies, at least MN events have had Trophy Only option if requested for several years.