Here's the situation:

Playing in a sanctioned tournament a player throws his disc and it hits a rock. The rock slices through a portion of plastic that runs along the bead of the disc. There is no hole or crack...it's basically a portion of plastic that is hanging on by a thread. The player proceeds to mark his disc and then busts out his butane lighter and begins performing "plastic surgery" (pun intended) to mold that piece of plastic back in place. Is this legal?

Here's the closest rule I could find that attempts to address this:

C. Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics. This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear from usage during play or the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrape marks. Discs excessively sanded or painted with a material of detectable thickness are illegal. See sections 802.01 D, E and F.

"Inevitable wear and tear" and "excessive sanding" seem to be vague imo.

And one other related item....would sanding the entire bead from the disc be considered "excessive"?

I have used my butane lighter before to smooth out burrs of plastic on my discs. I think that kind of thing is more like "routine maintenance" to keep your discs in good flying shape. If you're fixing a gouge by using a lighter or sandpaper, you're not trying to modify your disc, just giving a little fixer-upper.

IMO, sanding the entire bead off a disc would be excessive. But what about the guy who throws a few rounds of only thumbers and forehand rollers to break a new disc in? Or if someone repeatedly throws into a big tree (or onto asphalt) as hard as they can at point blank range?

I am curious as to what the authority has to say on this issue. As of now, I would do the same, melt the slice back into position, even in the middle of a sanctioned round. Is this wrong?


If it is wrong, can you tear off the sliver, or do you have to leave a "hanging chad"? :D:confused:

I agree with Alan on this one.

It is apparent that the player is not intentionally trying to alter or modify the flight of the disc. While this is an example of the extreme end of disc repair that we do, I would consider this maintenance. Whether he cut off the sliver, or melted it back onto the disc. ESPECIALLY if he was trying to melt it back to it's original condition. Melting the sliver back in a manner dissimilar to the manufactured finished product would raise suspicion.

If a group came to me with this in a tournament I was officiating, and there was no blatant intent to modify the flight (ie. melting the sliver 90degrees in relation to the bead) I would not penalize the player in question.

We used to have it written in the rules that heat was not allowed to repair discs, and I think it even mentioned no knives either. I guess it was replaced by the paragraph that says, "Players may NOT make post manufacturer modifications to the disc".

That phrase is SOO open to interpretation.
If a manufacturer put a sticker on the disc, wouldn't removing it technically be a "post-manufacturer modification"? I realize that is a draconian interpretation, but I have known some TD's that were "draco's"!

We used to have it written in the rules that heat was not allowed to repair discs, and I think it even mentioned no knives either. I guess it was replaced by the paragraph that says, "Players may NOT make post manufacturer modifications to the disc".



If you were to stick to this strictly, if a players disc hit a gravel path, got chewed up on the bottom, then they could not even smooth out the disc so that it did not hurt/cut their hands when thrown. The player would be forced to discard the disc. In the rules, "moderate sanding" is allowed, but then even that is open to interpretation.

What is moderate when it comes to disc repair?

Not to be a stickler, but the rule reads:

"Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics. This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear from usage during play or the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrape marks."

This does not allow for anything BUT sanding. So the disc may not be modified by use of a lighter or throwing it into a tree with the explicit desire to change it's flight characteristics. I know exactly what you are talking about and I know that a large chunk taken out of a disc is more likely to alter the original flight than molding the piece back into place. So why is it okay that the flight changes are okay if it looses a chunk and they are not when you modify it with a lighter? Well for two different reasons, first the rule says you cannot do and secondly it implies you cannot do anything with the intent to change it's flight. The damage is allowed due to throwing, molding the plastic is not. The rule does not allow for specific and deliberate changes except light sanding. The rule goes on to further define some painting as being acceptable, if it has no appreciable thickness.

While the disc will take damage in flight, this is allowed. I would suggest that throwing a pro-line Wraith into a wall to get it to turnover is post production modification as well as sanding the bead off an Aviar to make it a half bead design. On the other hand, you could go play catch with it on a local street until that bead is half rubbed down due to scuffing the pavement and you could practice a hole with a tight fairway and modify that Wraith while trying to force the disc through. So inevitable wear and tear is allowed and anyone knows that a disc will change it's flight characteristics if thrown long enough, but anything besides throwing it, with the exception of light sanding, is not allowed.

So can you throw it into a tree on purpose? I don't think you can if your intent is to change the discs flight. How do you know if someone has done that? You don't, but then again there are lots of places people can bend the rules. I could throw a disc into a tree 10 times and the disc may move slightly from over stable to stable and suddenly the 11th time it is good for nothing but a roller. In my mind this type of post production modification is not easily controlled, but once again, people do it.

So to shorten this, I believe you can cut off the chunk to protect your hand, but you cannot remold it with a lighter because you will change it's new flight pattern.

By the way this has been discussed before, but I could not find the thread.

I have a buddy who I played with a few weekends ago who intentionally scratched up the rim of his putter to create better grip...It didn't seem to alter the flight char. (which is hard to tell on a putt) I told him it was illegal and that he shouldn't use it in a touney....Please tell me I'm correct ( I'm just a little competitive ;-p )

That is definitely a post manufacturer modification and is illegal.

C. Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics.



The rule is the entire sentence, not the first half.

If there is a large chunk of plastic half connected to the disc, you have 2 options, remove it or repair it. Which of the 2 options results in the least alteration from the original flight characteristics.

Which part of that sentence provides for option 2?

It's the Indian and not the Arrow.
heres my rule for this: You can do whatever you want to the disc as long as you aren't adding additional materials or making the disc no longer 1 piece.
You can cut the edges if you want or sand it down.. Just becuase You modify it doesn't mean You'll be able to throw it better.

As long as it's in one piece, is still round, and hasn't had other materials added to it I don't care. You still have to throw it and that's the difficult part.

-Scott Lewis

Which part of that sentence provides for option 2?



Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted by the rules.


C. Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics. This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear from usage during play or the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrape marks. Discs excessively sanded or painted with a material of detectable thickness are illegal. See sections 802.01 D, E and F.



The rule does not prohibit making post production modifications to a disc, it prohibits making post production modifications to a disc for the purpose of changing it's flight characteristics.

The rule specifically allows for minor modifications in order to maintain the shape and feel of the disc.

The rule prohibits adding anything of detectable thickness and implies the removal of any substantial amount of material is also not allowed.

The strictest interpretation is that we are not allowed to repair anything that happens to the disc during normal use except to lightly sand out nicks and scratches. You are not even allowed to unbend a taco'ed disc.

On the other end, you are allowed to keep the disc smooth and round by sanding out imperfections picked up in play.

My interpretation is that you can do whatever is required to maintain the disc's flight characteristics as close to original as possible. With the restriction that you are not allowed to add or remove detectable thicknesses of material to/from the disc.


I guess it should be the options available to the player should be:

Option 1. Disregard the chunk of plastic hanging from your disc until it either is knocked off or back into place through normal use.

Option 2. Try to maintain the original flight characteristics of the disc by returning the disc as much as possible to it's original shape (without adding new materials).

Option 3. Alter the disc and probably it's flight charateristics by tearing or cutting off the hanging chunk of plastic.


Of course, this is just my reading of the rule.

Try this.
1. Forget everything you know about disc golf and it's rules.
2. Read this rule and maybe the rest of the rule book to get a feel for how it's written.
3. Decide how address problems with your disc that effect it's flight characteristics.

In order to meet the no post production modifications:

A. You required to leave the chunk hanging.

Anything else is a post production modification.
There are 2 types of modifications.
B. Repair (return the disc to it's original condition)
C. Removal (remove the offending nick or chunk)

I think the rule favors option B over C.

Wow....this rule is about as clear as the water in the Gulf of Mexico ;)

The Rule reads:

C. Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics. This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear from usage during play or the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrape marks. Discs excessively sanded or painted with a material of detectable thickness are illegal. See sections 802.01 D, E and F.



The rule does not prohibit making post production modifications to a disc, it prohibits making post production modifications to a disc for the purpose of changing it's flight characteristics.




Rather than paraphrase the rule inaccurately, just read it; "may not make post-production modification of discs which alter". There's no mention about intent, there is specific mention of the result of modifications.


The strictest interpretation is that we are not allowed to repair anything that happens to the disc during normal use except to lightly sand out nicks and scratches.



Actually, this is again backwards, this isn't an interpretation much less "the strictest" one, it's a literal reading of it.


My interpretation is that you can do whatever is required to maintain the disc's flight characteristics as close to original as possible. With the restriction that you are not allowed to add or remove detectable thicknesses of material to/from the disc.



This is why the rules are written down but even so, people think they can follow some of them and ignore others or better yet "interpret" them to suit their own ideas.

Which part of that sentence provides for option 2?



Anything not prohibited by the rules is permitted by the rules.


C. Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics. This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear from usage during play or the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrape marks. Discs excessively sanded or painted with a material of detectable thickness are illegal. See sections 802.01 D, E and F.



The rule does not prohibit making post production modifications to a disc, it prohibits making post production modifications to a disc for the purpose of changing it's flight characteristics.

The rule specifically allows for minor modifications in order to maintain the shape and feel of the disc.

The rule prohibits adding anything of detectable thickness and implies the removal of any substantial amount of material is also not allowed.

The strictest interpretation is that we are not allowed to repair anything that happens to the disc during normal use except to lightly sand out nicks and scratches. You are not even allowed to unbend a taco'ed disc.

On the other end, you are allowed to keep the disc smooth and round by sanding out imperfections picked up in play.

My interpretation is that you can do whatever is required to maintain the disc's flight characteristics as close to original as possible. With the restriction that you are not allowed to add or remove detectable thicknesses of material to/from the disc.


I guess it should be the options available to the player should be:

Option 1. Disregard the chunk of plastic hanging from your dis il it either is knocked off or back into place through normal use.

Option 2. Try to maintain the original flight characteristics of the disc by returning the disc as much as possible to it's original shape (without adding new materials).

Option 3. Alter the disc and probably it's flight charateristics by tearing or cutting off the hanging chunk of plastic.


Of course, this is just my reading of the rule.

Try this.
1. Forget everything you know about disc golf and it's rules.
2. Read this rule and maybe the rest of the rule book to get a feel for how it's written.
3. Decide how address problems with your disc that effect it's flight characteristics.

In order to meet the no post production modifications:

A. You required to leave the chunk hanging.

Anything else is a post production modification.
There are 2 types of modifications.
B. Repair (return the disc to it's original condition)
C. Removal (remove the offending nick or chunk)

I think the rule favors option B over C.



I have seen folks , take a lighter and melt the chunk of plastic back into the rim , it hopes it would maintain the original flight characteristics.

C. Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics. This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear from usage during play or the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrape marks. Discs excessively sanded or painted with a material of detectable thickness are illegal. See sections 802.01 D, E and F.



What is the definition of "play" in the second sentence?

If it is speaking of playing only rounds, then technically, any disc that you throw outside of a round would be illegal, since you are putting wear and tear that doesn't result from "play."

I only say this in defense of throwing a disc against a tree to beat it up (as opposed to sanding off the bead, which I don't support). If the wear is going to be identical to what would happen with lots of "play" I would support its legality.

Some people play lots of casual rounds with one disc for the sole purpose of changing it's flight characteristics. Should that be illegal? How about playing catch in a parking lot? Should it be illegal to have a poor throw that skips off the concrete? I think if saying that you can't intentionally throw a disc into a tree or beat it on the tee pad, then, by extension, I think you would have to say that any modification not made in an actual round would be illegal (no practice!)

I support clarification of the rule, since it can be applied in absurd ways.

The Rule reads:

C. Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics. This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear from usage during play or the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrape marks. Discs excessively sanded or painted with a material of detectable thickness are illegal. See sections 802.01 D, E and F.



The rule does not prohibit making post production modifications to a disc, it prohibits making post production modifications to a disc for the purpose of changing it's flight characteristics.




Rather than paraphrase the rule inaccurately, just read it; "may not make post-production modification of discs which alter". There's no mention about intent, there is specific mention of the result of modifications.




You are correct sir, My apologies.

Though, you show concern about reading the rule as written and then immediately use a partial rule to make a point ?

Again the rule as written is:

Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics.

The period and everything before it is needed to understand the meaning of the sentence. But my point still stands as posted earlier. Making modifications that result in an alteration of the original flight charateristics is forbidden. Making modifications that preserve the original flight charateristics are not forbidden.

I remember when DG was fun.

perfect post!

So, I've got a brand new D Wasp. I want it to match the flight characteristics of my "bizzle" moderately beat up one currently in my bag. I take it out to my local forest preserve and throw up and down the tightest trail I can find with the expressed purpose of beating it up. I am just trying to speed up the wear and tear process. This is technically illegal, correct?

probably...maybe... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

OK so here's an official response from the PDGA rules commitee....I emailed them on this topic to get it from the source;

Dear Bizzle,

Thanks for writing!!

It depends on how you make the scratches and how severe they are. The tool used for the scratching might also impact the decision. (Sandpaper versus a knife for instance.)

Regardless, it would be a judgement call. IF a fellow competitor questioned the legality of your disc she could ask the TD to inspect it. Then you'd be at the mercy of the TD's decision.

For additional research please see our Q & A on "Grip Additives"

Yours Sincerely;

Carlton Howard
PDGA Rules Committee Chairman



:confused: :confused: :confused:

probably...maybe... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



exactly

But, which question did you send them ?

From the answer I am quessing he asked if it was okay to roughen the bottom of the disc.




But, which question did you send them ?

To alter a disc is one thing to repair is another. In Golf you have to repair your clubs once in awhile or get them to better suit your hieght. To mold a piece back into place trying to repair a disc to it's original state is one thing, to sand off the bead on a disc is altering it's characteristics. I don't believe the PDGA should allow altering with sandpaper or any other item. I feel you should be able to make routine repairs though, it's inevitable your disc is going to take on damage.

2 cents...

But, which question did you send them ?



Sry fo the delay...been gone a few days....I asked them if it was ok to "rough" up the edges and bottom of the disc with the intent to create grip and not alter the flight characteristics.

In hind site.......roughing up the edges of the disc will definately change the flight char.........so.......Basically, I have come to the conclusion that to make REPAIRS to your disc which do not change the flight characteristics is acceptable and perfectly legal.

If you repairs require removing a "hanging chad" or chunk of plastic....no bueno.....time for a new disc.

If you need more grip.....buy a grippier plastic or use dirt, rosin...etc.

This makes no sense, though, when looking at the demographics of disc golf. A lot of people get into the sport because they're too poor to play ball golf. The rules committee shouldn't be forcing people to buy new discs because of easily repairable damage. If the rule can be applied in the way in which you're speaking, then I think the rule should be changed.

I read it as:

Repairs that neither add nor remove material are OK, but if you can not repair the disc and have to remove a chunk large enough to effect the flight characteristics, then it's not good.

The traditional way of looking at it was that no repairs could be performed at all because they were post production modifications that were not from normal wear and tear. At least with this interpretation, you are allowed to repair a disc if you can maintain the original flight characteristics and do not add material to the disc.

I doubt that you will be challenged by a player on your card if a small chunk is removed.(Were talkin small people) But if some Jackhole :mad:decides to biotch about it, it still comes down to and TD decision, or a certified official.

I wonder how they would test that it affects the flight char......I mean it would have to be a significant modification for it to be CLEARLY noticible.

I have a few crappier plastic discs that I LOVE to throw that have some damage to them that I dont dare use at a tourney, if this issue ever gets resolved, I would love to add them back to my bag. I guess I'll bring them next tourney and be straight up with the TD or official and let them decide if I can throw it during the event.

This makes no sense, though, when looking at the demographics of disc golf. A lot of people get into the sport because they're too poor to play ball golf. The rules committee shouldn't be forcing people to buy new discs because of easily repairable damage. If the rule can be applied in the way in which you're speaking, then I think the rule should be changed.



I do not see the PDGA requiring anyone to buy new plastic, but I can say I would have issues with another player taking sandpaper to smooth any part of the plastic(top,bottom,edge)
especially in a sanctioned event. If you have a chunk taken out that a large coin can slide in and out of I would assume the flight would change, hang it up and move on.I think for a larger part of the sense yes discgolf is cheaper and alot more fun to play IMO, but at the same time you can when need be spend some $$ bills on it as well. I saw it in this sense when I begin to play practice practice practice and become better. The better you play the more you stay in the fairway the less trees you hit the less money you spend on plastic.

It takes a pretty good chunk of plastic to alter the flight characteristics of a disc, and I haven't seen any changes for the better. The thing is that the hanging chunk needs to be left on until it is knocked off as normal wear. You should not cut it off.

It takes a pretty good chunk of plastic to alter the flight characteristics of a disc, and I haven't seen any changes for the better. The thing is that the hanging chunk needs to be left on until it is knocked off as normal wear. You should not cut it off.



What about taking a lighter and melting it back together?

(Which I've done and seen others do before for small gouges on the edge.)

i think if you're worried about the other guy and what hes doing with his disc....... you're probably not shooting too well, or have already lost.

i think if you're worried about the other guy and what hes doing with his disc....... you're probably not shooting too well, or have already lost.



I would have to disagree here. I mean not too many disc golfers are rocket scientists. I say if a dude with a lighter and a knife can sevearly alter the flight pattern of a disc he should go work for Aerobie cause he has an edge over all of us. Cheaters should not be allowed and that includes lefties, ie tbender.

People that can throw big thumbers are cheaters too. It is a disc not a baseball.

burn :D

And those tall guys with long arms .....
That's just not fair.... :cool:

People with mohawks should not be allowed to play, as it is distracting to the other players and basically cheating. :)

I wonder how they would test that it affects the flight char......I mean it would have to be a significant modification for it to be CLEARLY noticible.




Check the rule. There is no requirement that the change be noticeable. It only says "post production modification of discs that alter their original flight characteristics."

Nonetheless, a chunk of plastic hanging by a thread is "inevitable wear and tear from usage during play" and would be legal unless you did that intentionally to your disc.

If the intent of the rule is to allow repair of the disc in this type of situation, then it should say so.

i'm not cheating, i'm practicing rollers in the road. and then repairing inevitable wear and tear from usage during play

: ) :

I'm not cheating. I'm practicing hitting the first tree off the tee really, really hard. It's a legitimate shot in North Carolina, since I pull it out of my bag 5-10 times per round.

The hair wasn't that bad. It was the sweat shirt that really got 'em.

The hair wasn't that bad. It was the sweat shirt that really got 'em.


The 'hawk looked good on you, strangely enough. :)

<font color="gray">I wonder how they would test that it affects the flight char......I mean it would have to be a significant modification for it to be CLEARLY noticible.</font>



Check the rule. There is no requirement that the change be noticeable. It only says "post production modification of discs that alter their original flight characteristics."

<font color="gray">Nonetheless, a chunk of plastic hanging by a thread is "inevitable wear and tear from usage during play" and would be legal unless you did that intentionally to your disc.

If the intent of the rule is to allow repair of the disc in this type of situation, then it should say so.

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Does this include "tuning" discs like Steady Ed used to do to whippets and such? And how about tweaking an epic as recommended?