The 2007 Ironwood Open will be on April 21-22, 2007. The max field is 120. Six temporary holes will be set-up at the Lakeview Beach Disc Golf course in Moraine State Park in Portersville, Pa on Saturday (2 rounds). Six temporary holes will be set-up at Knob Hill Disc golf Course in Warrendale, Pa on Sunday (1 round follwed by a cut for a final safari round). More details coming soon. Visit www.PFDS.org (http://www.PFDS.org) for additional information on this event and other events occurring in Pitsburgh in 2007.

I'll see y'all there.

Libby, we may want to think about keeping it at just Moraine. The only reason I say so, is that Knob Hill is pretty freakin muddy during April. But....either way, It;s going to be an amazing event!!!! I like the logos dave is working on.

Chris you are too much man. First you didn't like the idea of making it a single event, then you didn't want to increase the field, then you didn't want to have seperate divisions playing at different courses, and now you don't want to have the tournament at seperate courses. Also, need I remind you that the Ironwood Open as been hosted at Knob Hill several times before going to Moraine. How about we just go with what I got since I already changed the format to have both divisions play the same course on the same day by putting temp holes in.

just an idea. Because I know 2 years ago when we did the IO at Knob it was a freaking muddy mess

and also Knob was only used once for the Ironwood. Schenley Park held every other Ironwood event we have had. I believe Schenley was used for 5 years???

Chris,

I agree it gets muddy. But I am also thinking about time and our tournament sponsors being located in Cranberry. So its pretty convenient to have it at knob on Sunday. And if you look at the stats on KNob hill you will see that the Ironwood Open has been held there more then once. There are reasons that I am having it at knob. Its not just because I want to have it at two courses. Although, the IO2 has always been played at two courses with a much greater distance between them.

I am posting this so others can see what I said to you. Like I said, this is your event and you can run it anyway you like, but I think you should take the opinions of the few who have expressed them to you and make this the best Ironwood ever.


OK here goes.

"For the past two years people have been complaining that the Ironwood Open needed to be separated from the Indiana open because we were being held down by it."

Who had complained about the Indiana event?? I am not sure I understand this. The only complaint I have ever heard about the Indiana event is that the payout was lower than the Ironwood. I told J Gary when the idea about getting rid of Indiana came about, that I thought it was a bad idea. But I did recognize that it was most important to have an equal payout at both events if we ran them again this year as we always have. I pushed for 2 1day events again this year. and was hoping that was how it would be. Which is not happening and is fine because IUP got the PA STates now which is aweome!!!

Everyone who has ever played it IUP always comments on how great of an event it was and how much fun they had at the course....but yes there were complaints last year about the payout....but 1 was a c-tier and 1 was a b-tier. So I said lets do 2 b-tiers equal payouts.

Why do we need more than 90 players...what is the thinking behind that. Many events fill up, thats just a fact of tournys. I dont think adding more holes and people make a better event.

2.......... "When was the last time the PFDO filled up? Why
>is it that we can get enough volunteers to run a tournament at two
>separate courses on the same day for one tournament and not for the other?"

Well I believe the PFDO has filled up the ams every year except twice since it was played at Knob Hill in 95. And I believe the largest PFDO field was 170 players??? I will have to check into this. But the PFDO has always been a huge event for 20 years now!!!!! 20 years, thats right. and since it went to Knob in 95 it has been a huge success, with many years being in the top 10 for money and players.

AS for the volunteers, Tom Moeller created the Ironwood open as an event to showcase Schenley Park. It was used as a means to show off PGh's other 18 hole course at the time. Part of the deal was that J Gary and KB did not have to do much to make the event happen, and I believe they still like the fact that it is not THEIR event. They do soooo much work that I/we do not expect them to run this event. You had many people come and help you last year at the Ironwood including myself. Because I thought it was an event worthy of my help. I think you are seeing a lack of volunteer effort this year because of the changes in the format. Splitting the people up at differnet courses is just not going to happen.

3.............This is your event.........you should not need a co-td. The only reason a co td would be needed is if the field was split which we almost all agree is not the way to go. We do not have a huge club and many of us just want to play. Asking for a split field requires more work from many people. If you keep it at 1 place, more people would be willing to help out because we would all be there. You had tons of help last year from everyone including Sharon Jenkins. And you will have our help again if the club/players feel it is a worthy cause. No one wants to be overwhelmed though.


4 .............."Now to my last point. Everyone is attacking me and critisizing what I am
>doing. There are very few of you who have run events in which you receive
>conflicting arguments and ideas from a wide variety of people. The older
>guys don't receive it for the PFDO because they have been running it for
>ever and we just do what they say. "


Well this goes back to the fact that you have only been here a few years. I have been at every PFDO since 1995 and have seen J Gary called an #$*&$!, I have seen our club criticized for payout, there have been numerous complaints over the years, which we all take to heart and have tried our best to rectify.


If you want help and you want us to back you, perhaps you should listen to peoples opinions and think about the seriously. Bryan Wright said it best, why make a mediocre event for 120 people when we can run a spectacular event for 72 or 90??? You are the TD...splitting it up at 2 courses means someone else has to TD, someone else has to do scores, someone else has to do......... and so on. Its a big deal, and none of us are up for it. I love the Ironwood and it has been a favorite event of mine for the last 5 years, but the way you are changing things, I am not excited about it and will not even participate in if we have temp holes or split the field.

I would much rather play 3 rounds or 4 rounds and be done. No safari #$*&$!, no temp holes. Just golf on our great courses the way they were designed. None of this goofy golf #$*&$!. We have 2 of the best courses in the world, why ruin them with extra holes, safari holes, etc. After analyzing all of the stats from last years PFDO and Ironwood we have found a few tweaks to pin placements that we will need to use this year for better scoring averages. For insatance...hole 4 at Knob Hill was in C-pin which yielded almost all 3's. This year we will have it at A-pin so it is amust birdie hole instead of a 3 for everyone...there are more examples but you get my point.

We are taking the stats to make a better scoring spread and a better courses for this year. Longer and harder pins are not always the answer to a better hole. There are things we learn every year and we keep trying to make our events better. I know you think a bigger field makes a better event but it does not. Look at the USDGC and the Japan Open, they are great events because the day that the event is over, they start raising money for next year. We do not...we do not have the resources to do so. We are a small club that has the best courses in the world and we run world class events that attract many world champions and the best players in the world. I think if the Ironwood switches to temp holes or split field, the quailty of the event will suffer hurting us next year and in the future. And you heard it from me, Dave and Bryan within minutes of your email that we did not think it was the way to go, and I am sticking with what I say that I will not attend the event if it is trying to pushed to the limit. The more you stretch things out the more chance that it will all break and fall apart. So I think you should really think about what people have said, talk to J Gary, KB, Jerry, everyone. See what they think. We will be honest with you. We are not trying to hurt your feeling or attack you, we just want to see a smoothly run event, which we had last year. Perhaps the best ever actually.

chris

I am posting this so others can see what I said to you.



I'd prefer you guys handle this face-to-face out on the course, via a phone call, or by private e-mail. No reason to drag this disagreement out into the public. The Pittsburgh Flying Disc Society has come a long way lately. You guys now have four world-class disc golf courses in Knob Hill, IUP College Lodge, Moraine, & Deer Lakes. You're now a PDGA Affiliate Club and are known for throwing the best disc golf tournaments each year. I've been so impressed with your progress that I sent my money into Chuck Vesch this week for a lifetime PFDS membership.

Now don't go ruin it all with public bickering here. Thank you.

Delete it then. I don't think it is bickering as much as it is talking and voicing opinions. And as a club we send our emails to everyone on our list, I jusr forgot to cc so I put it here.

PLEASE DELETE POST

Chris,

Honestly I like you. But your e-mail that you just typed points me to one conclusion. Laziness is a virtue in your eyes.

I just want to make one point to you. I never, NEVER, wanted to do temp holes, but because you and others complained about having a split field it seemed like the only option to increase the number of players.

What I See: I see a tournament that is ready to grow and needs to grow. You picture the tournament as being the same because you've "played in every PFDO since 1995" and believe that that is the only big tournament in Pittsburgh. Why is it that other clubs can host numerous large events but we can't? We have plenty of volunteers to pull it off, and I will ensure that it does. I know that you are opinionanted and that is good, I like your comments. But through my experience at work I have come to one main conclusion at every site I visit, audit, and make recommendations at. An outside and fresh view often yields a different course then what is implemented. Often you will see that the people who have been around for a long period of time are often too close to something to open up to new ideas, see improvements, or accept change. I have not been in Pittsburgh for that long you are right. However, I have been around long enough to play in 2 Ironwood Opens (1 that I TD'd) and two PFDO's. The PFDO had a smaller field then the Ironwood open the first year and had a split field that had about 115 players the second year. The Ironwood could have matched that last year.

Now with that said, I already have volunteers to be a Co-TD and split the field. Splitting the field has many advantages.
1) It allows for smaller groups and flexibility
2) It allows for more players to attend the event
3) In increases our exposure to possible sponsorships
4) It gets more volunteers involved and trains new volunteers for future tournaments.
The main disadvantage is this.
1) People who travel together may be playing in different divisions.
So what we will do is create a car pool list. We will have a number to call if someone needs a ride to a course. We will have a contact person who is specifically assigned just to this task.

You may not agree with what I think is best fitting for everyone's needs and that is fine. I cannot make everyone happy. If you decide to not participate in the event then I am sorry. It will be a great event that you will miss.

As for the Safari 9. I have talked with Sid and Dave and thought about what to do. This is what I came up with. This will be the order of holes for the final 9.
1) Hole 18
2) Hole 4
3) Hole 5 (White tee pad) to 6 basket
4) Hole 7
5) Hole 8
6) Hole 11 (white tee pad) to 12 Basket
7) Hole 13
8) Hole 14
9) Hole 16

The two holes that are safari holes are very open and are there to eliminate the amountt of walking on the course. I think you can agree that those too holes would be fair to the players.

The field is limited to 144 players in order to ensure that only 4 somes are on a card.

Sorry, I was typing when you posted this comment. You may delete the post if you like.

I think that sounds pretty good. I think that playing the concrete tees at Knob would be a better idea just for the fact of safety.the long tees at knob get very muddy during the spring and I think it would be nice to play from a firm solid footing.

I have a few other ideas about utilizing our sponsors that I would like to talk to you about.

Anything that increases our sponsors exposure and helps pursuade them to continue their support is extremely welcome. Lets discuss tomorrow at Deer Lakes.