So I got my National Tour calendar this week. It happens to mention that the DGLO will have part of the tournament take place at the toboggan course. Does anyone know if the ams will get to play there as well during this tourney?

YES!!! AM1s play toboggan, hudson mills original and hudson mills monster. I'm not sure about Ams and Masters tho.

Pros play toboggan, monster champs, toboggan.

Very cool to know....I'm glad I get to play Toboggan twice!

sweeeet... for some reason i didnt think that was happenin till '08. hopefully i will get to play it this year

Some year I'll get back to this tournament though I'd rather play the original than the monster, better course in my opinion.

you crazy man

but both are fun

I agree with Mitch! The regular course is way better. I refuse to play the GLO because of the monster. Now if all three days were at Toboggan I would be in.

Really? If you don't mind me asking, what makes you not want to play monster?

The black pins are horrible. They made each of those holes a tweener. Meaning you can't score on those holes you can only mess up. Hole one is the perfect example. If I throw a great shot off the tee I would have a putt on the regular pin, if I threw a good shot I had a long or challenging putt at the regular pin. Now for the black pin if I throw a great shot off the tee I have to lay up for the three. If I throw a good shot of the tee I will have to lay up for the three. It seems to me that the black pins were put in without any thought other than to create higher scores. Don't even get me started on hole three what a disaster.

The other problem is that it is so over grown. Most of the holes from A-F and 13 - 16 have become so random now. All of the bushes in the fairways need to be removed. When the course first went in it was a lot of fun. Now when you tee off on these holes you just hope you don't end up behind one of the big bushes in the middle of the fairway. 13 is the perfect example. The first time I played the monster course in 97 this was a great par 5. You could be as aggressive as you felt comfortable of the tee knowing that the rough was huge and punishing, but you still had to place your shot. Now the rough in front of the tee is so tall I saw players throwing down the walking trail because they couldn't get over the rough. Now if you do through over the rough the only place to land is about 350' directly on the short tee. If you are not in about a 20' circle you will have nothing but a thumber or something from your knee. This continues all the way down the fairway until you get about 250' from the pin. This is not fun!

Hudson mills has fond memories for me. This was the first tournament I went to out of state, this was the first supertour I made the final nine, and this was the first supertour I won. I took some time off from traveling so I missed the GLO for a couple of years. I was truly sadden to see how bad the monster course had become. I have spoken with several players who will not play the GLO as long as the monster is being used.

I understand how hard it is to maintain a course of that size. The course I put installed in CA (Stafford Lake) was on 75 acres of rough and wild land and I had no help from the parks department. I just don't enjoy playing a course that needs at least one spotter on almost every hole. If the black pins were not used and the letter holes along with 13 had the bushes in the fairway removed I might consider coming back. Or as I said in my previous post all three rounds at the toboggan.

[QUOTE]
The black pins are horrible. They made each of those holes a tweener. Meaning you can't score on those holes you can only mess up. Hole one is the perfect example. If I throw a great shot off the tee I would have a putt on the regular pin, if I threw a good shot I had a long or challenging putt at the regular pin. Now for the black pin if I throw a great shot off the tee I have to lay up for the three. If I throw a good shot of the tee I will have to lay up for the three. It seems to me that the black pins were put in without any thought other than to create higher scores. Don't even get me started on hole three what a disaster.

This is exactly how I feel. The black pins are nothing more than an extension of the regular hole, but it's only purpose is really to add one stroke to the hole. Most of those pins aren't reachable on your first or second shot (depending on the hole) and you're forced into a 120 foot approach (unless your Shawn...you might reach some of these!) and that's just not fun hole after hole after hole. The original has a lot of classic shots, technical shots, and a lot less flukiness than the Monster. This tourney also has fond memories for me. As a rookie I played there and was in the 2nd or 3rd group playing with Feldberg, the Champ, and Al Shack and kept up with them! Then my alarm didn't go off and I almost missed the 3rd round...fond memories of the first two though. The next time I was there i swore I wouldn't collapse that 3rd round and wound up shooting the best round of the day to finish 5th. Love the tournament, love the Original...could do without the Monster in the long layout. Never played Toboggan but I've heard nothing but great things about it. Some year I'll get back to this event, but It'll probably be if it's just toboggan and original.

I fully agree with what both of these guys have said!!! I wish it was Toboggan OG Toboggan!!! I will play this event every year as long as I live in MI (since its in my back yard!!!) but if I ever decide to move out of state I would also probly decide not to drive all that way to play the Champ Blacks!!!

Although I am very excited to play the The Toboggan against some of the top pros in country!!! The ones that will be there atleast!!!

i thought the monster was the worst permanent course we played in paw2000, didn't like campground much either but it was a temp. thoroughly enjoyed the other 4 courses especially cass-benton.

Not a huge fan of the Monster. However, having two rounds at Toboggan will make up for it. I think the best example of poor course maintenence/overgrowth is on the Monster hole #14. Off the tee you need a pinpoint accurate drive 360-400 feet as not to end up behind some shule in the fairway. That isn't a huge deal, but you need another pin point accurate drive this time of 400 - 450+ feet to clear all the crap in the fairway. You should be rewarded for a good shot. Last year I had a sub par drive(off on the right) but made a tremendous shot back into the fairway just to be behind a giant shrub. Of course I had no shot....third shot I tried to play it safe and my disc hit a branch in the fairway and I was behind another huge bush...again with no shot. You know how the rest goes...
Having a few obstacles in the fairway to avoid is ok(such as bunkers in ball golf) but the fairway of hole 14 is all about being lucky. They could, and should remove 50%-75% of those bushes in the fairway. Come on, isn't covering 1038 feet tough enough?

sounds like an overgrown hole 11 at Renny. At least we keep Renny cut. You can 4 it if you play smart, go big and you can 7 it easily. Got a good roller and I think it can be threed.

Love the Toboggan, and played a round at the original Mills. It would be a nice change to have the original course as the birdie fest and then the Toboggan as the strategy and course management course. Having 2 tough courses to learn will make it tough for the out of towners, but Original is just a good skills course. Would pair well with the Toboggan.

Have to jump on the wagon, not a fan of the Monster either....Original layout is great and much more fair and rewarding for throwing good shots. Have yet to play Toboggan somehow?

Ok, I understand. I think the most challenging and fair layout at Hudson is Monster long tees, regular pins. I am not really a fan of the champion pins either. Toboggan, Original, Toboggan would be a fun mix.

On the topic of hole 14- I don't think it's flukey, I think that to get a birdie 4, you have to throw 1 great drive, a fair 2nd drive, and then it's a wide open 350 to the pin. On the first landing zone, there is alot of room to work with. There are only 2 bushes that are trouble off the tee, and those are directly to the right of the short tee . But you can even have a lie behind those bushes and still 4 it with a nice 2nd drive. I really enjoy 14, it's a really tough par 5.

Everyone is going to love the toboggan. It is quite the challenge.

AGREED!!!

Toboggan Toboggan!

I'm there, and I am sure Naved will want to travel up with me too.

You know I love me some Toboggan!!! And I dont even think that Monster Longs to Regular baskets is that fair either!!! To score on the course you have to throw a ton of AMAZING shots off the tee considering a 1000 rated round is 2 under par!!!

Cant wait to see what the Big Dogs shoot on the Toboggan!!!

I do agree that Toboggan, Original, Toboggan would be the best layout, but the Monster is a great course. Playing Toboggan and Original allows big scoring in round 2 with most top pros shooting at least -10 and Toboggan allowing the big arms and course management players to shine.

I agree with Daemon that Champ baskets on Monster are not very good, but Blacks is a good course. The park is working on removing the russian olives in the fairways which will make it more fair and some trimming is necessary, which they usually do around DGLO time. It takes long accurate drives but scoring is definitely possible. Playing regular Blacks there are a ton of decue opportunities and you need to play smart on the rest of the holes. A trimmed Monster is a great course

You know I love me some Toboggan!!! And I dont even think that Monster Longs to Regular baskets is that fair either!!! To score on the course you have to throw a ton of AMAZING shots off the tee considering a 1000 rated round is 2 under par!!!

Cant wait to see what the Big Dogs shoot on the Toboggan!!!



Even a 1-under 71 (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5509&year=2006&include_ratings=1#Advanced) will do it actually. The black course is sweet.

To Shawn I pose this
I believe the Black pins were put in because there was room to do so, they added length to the course, and probably to bring the scores up not that I know whose idea it was to add these pins or even the reasons for them to be added. Most PRO�s and higher above average AM1�s were shooting -8 to -12 on the monster longs. Yeah sure I can�t par the championship black holes on a regular basis, nor do I or my friends play these holes regularly. My AM rating is only 841 and I don�t complain about offering the extra difficulty.
I have pared (score of 3) Black 1,3,13. I have never pared E or 8. But I don�t complain about it. I have seen you play and I don�t have the shot selection or range you have but I make do.
All courses installed in a park of this nature grow up and mature and fill in. Hudson Mills controls what maintenance is or can be done. I know for a fact that A3 is allowed input into what they would like but ultimately the park decides what is or can be done. The park will not for the most part allow A3 to go out and do work in the park because of liability risks, although they started relaxing this stance I heard last year.
Holes A-F are brutal if you get off the fairway, most definitely. Last year the park and/or A3 I am not sure which took steps to widen the fairways A-F, in particular from the PRO tees forward. Talk to some of the people who played the DGLO last year. Later in the year the park started a program to remove the Russian olive bushes that are invasive. Many of these large bushes were removed from the monster hole (14) and hole 15. More will be removed in the future but are being left until some new trees can be placed and they start to grow in. Russian olives were removed both from the fairway and in the rough on the West side of the fairway. Understand that some the Russian olives still exist in the fairway on the monster hole, even though some were removed. I am assuming that you mean hole 14-17 not 13-16 because 13 is a short hole with a black basket of course, 14 is the monster hole. I am pretty sure you mean 14 not 13 because 13 has never been a par 5.
Are you saying that trees and bushes should not be allowed to grow and fill in? Or are you saying that you prefer to play in the wide open? I am shocked that you have a problem with the growth at this park. Just like in Ball Golf placing the shot sometimes is a very important part of the game. I have played at over 150 different courses in 10 different states and Hudson mills are still my favorite courses.
So with 24 holes you have trouble on 10 holes? So I guess you should be shooting birdies on the other 14 holes and go for pars on these troublesome holes.

Personally I think the 2 courses at Hudson mills are arguably among the best courses in the world, now I have played but a small percentage of all of those courses. If you want to attack a course try another one.
Personally we are sorry you and I gather Juliana won�t be coming to the DGLO. You will be missed; you are just making it easier for all the other less pampered PRO�s to win this event. Enjoy your future events played out in the open where bad shots aren�t penalized by the rough.
We at Hudson mills will fill your spots with the less pampered PRO�s have a nice day.

The Monster was the weakest course of all six played at the 2000 Worlds as evaluated by eight members of the PDGA course designers group (Monroe, Hoeniger, Rife, McDaniel, Houck, Dropcho, Howard, Kennedy), even falling below the Campground with its grouping of wide open holes. With six years more of growth, it's nice to hear that A3 has been able to work with the HM Park Dept to groom some areas and deal with the olive trees. Shawn's remarks about tweener holes was in relation to the scattered foliage in relation to length. Several holes either had limited scoring spread or the spread was produced with a higher percentage of foliage luck versus skill than is desireable.

At the time, appropriate hole lengths for skill levels was a newer design concept and it's not surprising that even higher profile courses hadn't yet been adjusted based on guidelines. However over six years later, Michigan still lags many other states with fast course growth in applying the newer design guidelines. It has only one member in the course designers group familiar with the more technical aspects of adjusting designs for appropriate lengths.

Chuck, could you eloborate on which course is in this course designers group familiar with more technical aspects for appropriate lengths? Also, I'd like to hear more about the newer design guidelines.

I'd just like to say with regards to comments that the course is to tight on some holes or has bushes or trees in "unfair" positions, if that is a problem don't play any courses in New England. I have only played a couple of courses out here that don't have large trees or bushes in a good number of the fairways. In fact few courses out here even have defined fairways. My point? Disc golf has been played differently by region for some time. If you are looking for big open holes with one or two trees over 500' then keep playing in the Midwest. If you want to play where a few bad kicks from one of the 20 large trees in a fairway can ruin a round, keep playing in the Northeast. Until we have standardized course design like ball golf there will be these differences of design and opinion. I think that these differences of opinion are why some people like the OG better than the Monster. The OG requires lots of dueces and distance and not a whole lot of tight shots. The monster, espcially Champ-Blacks requires dueces when possible and good course mangement where not. You also have to have good long accurate drives. Just my 2 cents.

Terry Calhoun is the only active member of the DGCD designers group in Michigan and he hasn't done too much from a design standpoint with the existing Michigan public courses yet. Greg Rife, now in Dexter, is also a member but is currently retired from design and being a mover and shaker when in Minnesota. The PDGA design guidelines are here: www.pdga.com/cd_start.php (http://www.pdga.com/cd_start.php) and more detailed forecasting and analytical tools are available to members of the DGCD. Contact me for more info if any are interested. We now have over 100 members worldwide.

For those that did not attend the DGLO 06, the Monster course had about 20% of its over growth taken out last year. Many bushes and trees were removed or trimmed especially on #3, A-F, and the Monster hole itself. There will be much more done this year as well, as the maintenance crew will be out in force. This should be a tournament not to miss. We have already started selling fund raiser discs at www.sportdiscs.com (http://www.sportdiscs.com), ESP Flashes yet to be released to the public and Crystal Z Avengers with two very stylish new Colormax logos are available at very reasonable prices, check them out while they last.

Peace,

Pad Timmons
TD DGLO 07

Mary everyone is entitled to their opinions about courses. I am merely expressing my opinion about the course. I used to love that course it was one of my favorite courses in the world. However that was about 8 years ago.

Chuck is right course design has changed and move to a new level. I am approaching 500 different course played and "The Monster" is no longer a monster by today's standards and it is not even in my top 100 courses. This could be due to knowing what it used to be like back in 1997.

You need to not taking things so personal this is just someones opinion not attack on anyone or any club.

Not quite sure what your term of pampered touring pro means. If pampered means living in a 19' van sleeping in driveways and walmarts, barely scraping up enough money for gas, then your right.

As far as filling pro spots....42 open last year is far from filling up spots.

To be fair, last year it was the weekend after the Japan Open and that had an impact on pro attendance.

2006 42 open
2005 47 open
2004 52 open
2003 54 open
2002 63 open

Not really because all the big guys still showed up. I knowthat 5 of us were planning on going but played the Mid America Open istead because of the entry. :D

All pros should consider this one of their stops next year as playing Toboggan 2 times is well worth the price of admission!