Maybe this was covered before, but I'm too lazy to look.

I use a hydra from time to time, especially in the rain on a short course because of the feel. How does a floating discs apply to water OB? My understanding of the rule, from every event I've been in, and penalties I've taken, is that is any part of the disc is out of the water - it is NOT OB. The disc must be completely submerged to be OB.

So, how do I interpret that rule with my floating hydra? Clearly not completely submerged.

Also, how do you interpret the 'stopped of it's own momentum' rule? If it is floating down a moving stream, do have to wait until it stops? Do I HAVE to stop it in any circumstance, or do I HAVE to wait for it to stop? Can I let if float toward the basket if the stream flows that way? Can I stop it if it is floating away from the basket? In these cases it is clearly not moving under its own momentum, but do I have to stop it where it entered the water - what if I was first to tee off and had to wait?

First, take a look at 803.09. If you're truly lazy, that would have taken taken you less time than writing your post.

But submerged is an interesting definition of surrounded. An out-of-bounds area is a 2 dimensional area defined by the TD. If a disc is completely within that 2D area, it is OB. It does not matter if the disc is floating or submerged as that aspect of location is in the 3rd dimension. It could even be caught up on a Beaver's dam and still be out of bounds.

Unless you have a really strong current (read white water rapids) that causes the disc to enter back in bounds, waiting for the disc to get closer to the basket only helps if it is easier to retrieve the disc. It does not change where you play next from. The rule does not say as you quoted "stopped of it's own momementum". Reread the rule referenced above for what the rule really says. Thus even in the rapids example above, the disc is moving "only by the action of the water" and would have already been considered out of bounds.

A. A disc shall be considered out-of-bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area. A disc thrown in water shall be deemed to be at rest once it is floating or is moving only by the action of the water or the wind on the water. See section 803.03 F. The out-of-bounds line itself is considered out-of-bounds. In order to consider the disc as out-of-bounds, there must be reasonable evidence that the disc came to rest within the out-of-bounds area. In the absence of such evidence, the disc will be considered lost and the player will proceed according to rule 803.11B.

Floating or surrounded by water (not submerged) it is OB :)

Thank you for the clarifications. Our local TDs have been putting in placea loose interpretation of the water OB rule, which is what I stated. Because most of the water is small creeks or streams, it was a rule that the disc had to be submerged, because you could still throw from the water as it was mainly shallow and a foot or two across.

The rule is very clear. All my questions were based on out local interpretations.

What type of deviation from the rules are allowed? I'm going to be hosting an event next year, and I too have a course with a small stream. I don't want to be outside my bounds by enforcing the submerged rule, rather than strict reliance on the 2D plane of the creek.

another interpetation i've gotten (aside from what has already been said), which may be covered in the rules, is to push the disc vertically down into the water - if it is completely surrounded by water, then it is OB

clearly, if the disc were touching in bounds, it would not be able to be pushed down into the water

Not that I recommend it, you can declare OB to be any water greater than a certain depth and if it is shallower than that it is just casual water. The reason I don't recommend this solution is that it makes the OB line much more difficult to determine. Simpleness goes a long way towards avoiding ambiguity. Why not just declare the stream entirely OB or entirely as casual water?

Definitely the best option...water is either OB or it isn't

Any determination should be an either/or. It's all OB or it's all good. Starting to worry about the depth of the water is a great way to start an argument. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I've seen some fairly deep water called casual and a drainage way that hadn't seen water in YEARS declared OB. Go figure!

Remember the old KISS rule.

Ideally, the water's edge should never define an OB line. A fixed well defined edge of some sort should always be the way OB is marked when possible whether it's cement, stakes, string or paint.

We had a situation here last spring where I marked the OB lines around a lake on Friday afternoon, and that night and the next morning it rained a good bit. The water level in the lake rose enough so some of the painted lines were underwater! They were still plenty visible, and only a foot or two from being dry, so I made the decision that the paint lines were still the OB line. A player could actually be underwater but still safe. With the meter relief, there was plenty of room to take a dry, legal stance, so I didn't see any problem with the situation as we played it that day.

After further review of the underwater OB lines, I wonder now if the TD can allow an extra meter of relief for any OB lines described in the above situation? Seems as if it is announced in the player's meeting (since the situation occured after the course rules sheet had been printed)and made clear that only underwater OB lines would be affected by the extra relief, it would be fair and allowable.

The water that is not OB, I am assuming would be casual. However, the rules for OB and for casual are different. OB you can move closer to the basket, casual you cannot. So you have a choice of either standing in the water or moving back up to 5 meters in the line a play. Am I right here?


After further review of the underwater OB lines, I wonder now if the TD can allow an extra meter of relief for any OB lines described in the above situation? Seems as if it is announced in the player's meeting (since the situation occured after the course rules sheet had been printed)and made clear that only underwater OB lines would be affected by the extra relief, it would be fair and allowable.

The water that is not OB, I am assuming would be casual. However, the rules for OB and for casual are different. OB you can move closer to the basket, casual you cannot. So you have a choice of either standing in the water or moving back up to 5 meters in the line a play. Am I right here?





Yup. You can move anywhere up to 1 m perpendicular to OB and (assuming you are still wet) then to the nearest good spot up to 5 m back on LOP.

The water that is not OB, I am assuming would be casual. However, the rules for OB and for casual are different. OB you can move closer to the basket, casual you cannot. So you have a choice of either standing in the water or moving back up to 5 meters in the line a play. Am I right here?





Yup. You can move anywhere up to 1 m perpendicular to OB and (assuming you are still wet) then to the nearest good spot up to 5 m back on LOP.


...and what if the casual creek swells to 6m on LOP...what then? :confused: :p :D:mad:

You have to get wet...

If you really want to stay dry, you can always throw from your previous lie for a +1 penalty.

We don't need no stinkin' penalties! ;)

Seriously though, can a TD add an extra meter of relief (for a total of 2m. perpendicular to the OB line) as a special condition covering only certain areas?

Technically, you would be defining a "drop zone" that just happened to be 2m from the OB line. The stratches of OB where you are allowed to use the drop zone would need to be identified.