I just quit a tournament which 07 Am Worlds director ran. And my first round I was matched with a junior and advanced player. Even though there was 4 juniors in the event they mixed the divisions. From my understanding it is against the rules to mix divisions unless it is necessary. Do you think I should get some sort of refund since I had to play against the rules and quit the tournament because I did not agree with the rules the TD maid up that did't follow the PDGA rules?

I just quit a tournament which 07 Am Worlds director ran. And my first round I was matched with a junior and advanced player. Even though there was 4 juniors in the event they mixed the divisions. From my understanding it is against the rules to mix divisions unless it is necessary. Do you think I should get some sort of refund since I had to play against the rules and quit the tournament because I did not agree with the rules the TD maid up that did't follow the PDGA rules?



Heck when I am on a card all the other guys are playing with a junior. :DIt was just for the 1st round so quit ya whining.

Well if this Junior cared to play like you do it would be different. He just kicked the snow around staring at the ground and we had to find his disc everytime. And if you are playing at a pro level as a junior then that is different you are playing competively just like every other pro.
Just following the rules

So if there were 4 Juniors that were split up, how did the players on the other 3 cards do?

Sounds like you may have gotten the worst of the bunch, but you can't expect TD to know that ahead of time, can you?

It has happened to me before and I think it actually helps my game by relieving pressure. BTW I'm sure you made that kid feel REAL good when you quit because you had to play with him. :confused:

Well it looks like one kid quit after the 1st round. Was it the guy you played with?

Shane - Was your issue that you had to play with a junior at all, or was it because of the behavior of the junior? It sort-of sounds more like a case of objecting to the junior's behavior...and at that point, I'd be inclined to issue the same kinds of courtesy warnings as you would for any other player.

I've played in two Southern National events and I always liked their way of seeding the opening round with mixed players and divisions. I think it helps tie disc golfers together across all skill levels together and gives us newer players a chance to meet and play with folks like Lavonne Wolfe - whom I had the pleasure of meeting and playing with. Wouldn't have ever happened if not for that initial mix-master seeding.

Once in a while, I guess you are bound to draw an unhappy golfer that probably didn't want to be there in the first place...especially in the junior circles where often a kid is forced to come along with Dad (or Mom) when they didn't want to.

I think that TDs are supposed to petition the PDGA in advance when they plan on deviating from PDGA rules, and this format would require it I think. If the TD was granted such an exception then a refund is probably not in order...but if not, then I think you probably have a case and should file a grievance through the competition committee.

This has beeen discussed a few times on this board, one I found at Division Groupings Thread (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=20949&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1) .

Some people like it, some don't. For a small turnout like Brown Deer (38), I can understand why the TD didn't want to send out 4 Juniors on their own. The backup that would have resulted would have created additional problems and complaints.

Since there were 13 Pros, would you rather there was 3 groups of 4 and the last unlucky Pro ended up with all ams? Also, were there 3 on a card or 4? With only 38 people (and 13 pros), someone is going to get the short straw regardless of how you group the cards. Hopefully that person is understanding.

If you look at the GLDGC thread on the browndeer tourney you can see what I said and what Terry said. I posted how unhappy I was about the format and protested against Terry. But instead of being objective and looking at the rules Terry personally attacked me. Not until 2 days later did Terry find out the rules from someone else who actually looked them up. Then he tried to ban me from courses this website and other things just because I proved him wrong. And this is our 07 AM Worlds director.

D-tier = tournament designed for newer players and is used in order to increase tournament participation. IMO the mixing of cards encourages lower level players to play more events as they are able to play with better players which could maybe show them a thing or two. I wouldn't even mind payin $10 to play a D-tier and play with mixed cards every round so that i could give some tips on tourny play. The $10 would be used for PDGA fees and ratings.

I paid $55 and juniors paid $28

I never said how much you paid I just said that IMO D-tiers shouldn't even pay out in the pro division but instead allow them to play for ratings for a small fee while helping out the newer players.

But that is not how it is set up. Yea the kid did quit because he didn't want to be there. And I was positive the whole round saying nice shot it wasn't like I was mister negative. I just got frustrated because it wasn't right. The TD didn't play with any Juniors. He played with a Advanced woman and man. Also Terry has a personal agenda with me because I do not always agree on what he does. He switched cards I was origonally on hole 14 then he moved me right before the players meeting and put me with the worst junior he had. Him knowing this because he has run tourneys with him in it. But anyways not to get off the subject a rule was broken.

How were you playing?

I was 1-2 strokes off the lead with 3 holes left. Leader was at +4 and I was at +5 or 6

so why would you quit after the round was over? Or did you quit in the last few holes? I mean if you had a problem with it wouldn't you have quit before the round started? If you would have then maybe you should get a refund but since you didn't I don't think you can expect to get one.

Well if you look at the other thread there is no arguing with Terry. Also I did not know what division this kid was playing until we already started. Who knows he could of been another Matt Hall and actually be a pro

The fact remains that you shouldn't have played the full round if you expected to get your $$$ back. I mean what if you have shot awesome? Maybe you would have stayed so therefore your asking for a refund could have been based off you performance(not saying it was). I can see how you were upset but it is a little too late now.

I guess I am not looking for so much my money back, but to point out that Terry Miller was wrong and did not follow the rules layed out by the PDGA. Then he made it personal by attacking me. Good TD by the way.

From my understanding it is against the rules to mix divisions unless it is necessary. Do you think I should get some sort of refund since I had to play against the rules and quit the tournament because I did not agree with the rules the TD maid up that did't follow the PDGA rules?



Every player in every event qualifies for a refund because not one TD can or does actually follow the rules as written either for 2006 or 2007, because it can't realistically be followed. Unless a TD has used a random number table to assign groups, no groups have been assigned randomly per the rules. The only event that even tries to group by ratings has been the Worlds. Even then, only the top pool is seeded by ratings. So, you may have a disagreement with Terry on how he did the groupings, but he has diverged from the rules no more than many other TDs.

My only complaint as a potential player would have been that the plan to mix players from different divisions wasn't promoted in advance. Even then, the rule doesn't say Ams and Pros CANNOT be grouped together, but should not be, so mixed groups aren't totally against the rules.

It was not advertised as a mixed division tourney. But as regular PDGA tournament.

Regular PDGA events have had and will likely continue to have mixed divisions in the first round and not lose their sanctioning. However, it should be adequately communicated in advance so players can choose to attend or not.

To the best of my knowledge, it is not allowed to mix divisions for the first round unless there is no other way around it (i.e the event fills and you have 5 somes and there are 23 pros and 6 masters and a pro women, you would have 4 groups of open players, a group of masters, and a group of 3 bottom open players, the last place master and the woman). It rarely works out that nice however.

There was a TD that started to do this year and I informed him it was not allowed and he changed it. Did you approach the TD about this when you saw the cards?

MTL, I don't disagree with what you're saying on principle. But I also stand by my comments on actual practices.

I understand totally what you are saying Chuck. However, I do not think it is fair to mix it up like that. It has nothing to do with a skill level issue or anything like that, just a fairness issue.

Let's say a course has the front nine being pretty simple and the back nine has open and lots of OB.

Half of a division starts on the front and the other half starts on the back (in the example of mixing groups - if this was the case, you would have players of all divisions all over the place).

Halfway through the round, a horrible storm comes through. The golfers who started on the easier part of the course are now in the open and the OB portion of the course in the winds and rain while the other half is on the easier part.

While weather situations are NEVER avoidable, at least by keeping people golfers in the same division together and on the same part of the course (like open 1-5 masters 6 - 7 women 8 adv 9 - 15 int 16 - 18), if something like this happens, golfers are as close to same part of the course as possible and somewhat avoids the situation I described.

Not any less fair than staggered starts like USDGC.

There is never going to be a perfect solution. However, if an event has less than 90 golfers and is on one course and does shotgun start (which is about 90% of the events) my scenario above is in effect.

My point is if we allow stagger start events, your argument against mixed divisions doesn't stand up. My argument against mixed groups in PDGA events is it's unnecessary because there are enough other leagues, informal play and unsanctioned events for mixing divisions. And, of course, it's against the guidelines. I enter a division because I expect to play with other people in it, especially now that several of us have more choices.

I agree!

It's a balancing act being a TD. I think the biggest complaint heard round these here parts is a major back up on a hole which clogs up the entire flow.

I've had to play with juniors more than most because I'm usually the only woman or pro woman. So you don't get THAT much sympathy from me. However, a TD shouldn't mix skill levels as diverse as that.

If this particular TD's jerking you chain so much, don't play his events. Vote with your feet. If you have a complain, make sure you make it in "a loving christian way". :D

The best pro score was +4. The course has 2 700ft holes and very tricky woods. Not to mention 4 inches of snow. It is definetely going to be the hardest course for AM Worlds. Which I'm assuming Juniors won't even play it. Also I did not know I had a Junior on my card until the 2 minutes was blown. And I walked from hole 2 basket to 3's teepad.

When I was at the Oklahoma Open this year I played my first round with:
1 recreational woman
1 Intermediate man
and 2 of us were recreational men

If mixing is the practice that is going to be allowed by non-enforcement, then the rules should be changed to reflect the practice. No different than foot-faults on run-ups in the fairway.

It is becoming increasingly difficult to know which rules are expected to to be followed strictly and which ones are allowed to be flaunted. Perhaps a Q & A submittal in this regard is in order. :confused:

Personally I like the mixed concept in the 1st round of a tournament. I will without hesitation it has helped my game and attitude more than once. My game has been helped by playing with players far better than me (most of which are much younger) and my attitude has been helped by mentoring much younger and less skilled players during the round. Take it for what it is, a chance to mingle with golfers you normally don't get to play with. Just my 2 cents :cool: