Scenario

A doubles tournament, where one team is facing a putt with water behind the basket. Player A asks Player B (his partner), to stand in front of the water, behind the basket, to stop his putter from going into the water if he were to miss the putt. If he misses the putt and his partner does catch the disc, then they will rule the shot as going OB.

The question is, is this allowed? 1 side argues, if the shot is caught and declared as OB, then there should be nothing wrong it, your taking Player B's shot anyway. However, the other side argues that catching a disc in mid flight is interference and never should be allowed to begin with. Who is right?

Right and wrong and following the rules are 2 different things. Rules are there for a reason...but sometimes it just makes good sense to bend them under some circumstances. C'mon, stopping a disc that is going to clearly go out of bounds, and assuming be difficult to retrieve should be able to be stopped.

On the other hand, would Player A make the same putt if Player B was not standing there? I would say he/she might opt for a lay up or loft putt if they were to lose a disc by running the basket and missing. If they are determined to run at it (because his partner already layed up), then let someone stand there is what I say.

One part of me is willing to say that if you are giving up the OB call, then knock yourself out!

Another part of me says that this is part of doubles strategy. The one who can't straddle or loft putt should lay up.

As stated in the scenario, I would have to say no can do. Learn to straddle putt.

thats kind of the point of the question

knowing your not going to lose a disc gives you confidence to then run at it, and knowing that putting is 90% confidence to begin with, it is clearly an advantage - but whose to say the player isn't planning on running at it anyway and would rather not have to lose/go retrieve a disc from the water if he misses (which could also save time)

but as flyinhighin said: "stopping a disc that is going to clearly go out of bounds, and assuming be difficult to retrieve should be able to be stopped"

i've also encountered this in a singles tournament, where the player had stated he was going to tryand make the putt, but there was a hill behind the basket that led to water and wanted to know if a player would stand there to try and top it if it were to hit and try to roll into the water (he would take the OB stroke)

obviously its a potential morality vs rules conflict, but do the rules specifically state that you can not stop a partner's disc from going into the water? is this the same as the typical disc interference?

Scenario

A doubles tournament, where one team is facing a putt with water behind the basket. Player A asks Player B (his partner), to stand in front of the water, behind the basket, to stop his putter from going into the water if he were to miss the putt. If he misses the putt and his partner does catch the disc, then they will rule the shot as going OB.

The question is, is this allowed? 1 side argues, if the shot is caught and declared as OB, then there should be nothing wrong it, your taking Player B's shot anyway. However, the other side argues that catching a disc in mid flight is interference and never should be allowed to begin with. Who is right?




A: If it was just for fun, sure, duh, no problem.

but if it was a PDGA event, pro division, by the book...


You 'COULD' have just let them. If the putt goes in, nothing
matters. There is nothing in the rules from having
your partner stand somewhere when you shoot.

HowEVer, if they miss the putt, AND grab the disc...

Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or obscures another player�s thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.

2 strokes, no warning.

Or you could have said... "Ever read 803.07 part c?, is
that piece of plastic worth 2 strokes?"

or something like that,
Bowler

I'm with the Bowler if it is a money round or for prizes. It is intentional interference and it is being done to gain an advantage, so it should not be allowed. We do this all the time in casual rounds at Firefighters.

I agree that if it's casual/unsanctioned and the group agrees, then do it. If it's for cash or sanctioned, then it's a no go. It clearly gives the player an advatange mentally. Yes, they take the OB stroke if they miss, but knowing they aren't going to lose their putter and can make a all out run is a pretty big advantage.

A similar situation occurred a couple years ago to my friend's and I in a sanctioned tourney. We were all down in Am2 and happened to be paired together. The course we were at had a brutal extra 6 holes that all had water in play. One particular hole was about 280' with a river with a hard current about 15' behind the basket. To eliminate the risk of losing our discs one player stood behind the basket in case anybody was headed in the water. This probably ended up helping my buddy who proceeded to get a skip ace, knowing his plastic was safe if it went deep.

In retrospect, not a good decision, but it was two years ago, the extra holes bordered on ridiculous (one was on a drainage grate 20' into the water with a 5' wide peninsula being the only land leading to the basket on the backside of the hole with a pond surrounding the rest of the area), and we were pretty much tournament newbies. Clearly an advantage though imho.

Sorta like in 8-ball; you're not supposed to do combos hitting the 8 ball first but you can just go ahead and do it then lose your shot. I suppose you can do anything you want in sport, but then take the penalty (or consequence). Like a coach stepping off the sidelines to trip or tackle a runaway TD run.

This is a good quesiton. The rule does state any interference will result in 2 strokes. Additionally, I would have to agree that the player on the other side of the basket gave the putting player a bit of confidance that they obviously would not have had. Why is it obvious? Because if they were confident, they would have never asked to have the putt stopped if it was headed to the water.

How many of us have walked up to a basket to see how far the drop off is or how far back the water is? This does matter. If I was concerned I would have used my alternate putter and not worried about the water. This is one reason that I carry an alternate putter.

the thing is, I understand the rule, and it makes sense, so that nobody gets a competitve advantage

but the thing is, the rule was put in place becase "interference" of a thrown disc actually interfers with the shot and its projected landing area

the difference being (and what i'm just curious about), is in doubles, if your partner has already laid up, then does it matter if a player/partner "interferred" with the disc to stop it from going in the water? if the putt has been missed, then your taking the lay up shot anyway, so where the disc is projected to land really doesn't matter

as i figure, the rule will and should hold up for competitive advantage reasons - i'm just curious as to the opinions of readers on how the rule would apply in a doubles format

Click on the Doubles Rules www.pdga.com/rules/doubles.php (http://www.pdga.com/rules/doubles.php) and you'll see that interference is one of the penalties that applies to the team score. So, if the player interferes by stopping the disc, the team would get the 2-shot penalty negating any benefit.

I still think it applies as in singles. Technically a rule violation? That could be debated using your post as points, but regardless of whether your partner is laid up or not, catching the disc would be a large competitive advantage.

You could decide that the made putt is worth the risk of losing your favorite putter (if that's the case). The sheer risk/reward nature of the putt is the reason for the hole placement, which is partially defeated in that scenario. Water v. general OB is almost a double penalty. You lose your disc and a stroke, the penalty is diminished all other things being equal.

edit: Thanks Chuck, technically a rule and an unfair advantage

I understand your point, but would you not agree that if you had a putt like that, your concern might effect your putt? I know many people that would rather lay up than loose a putter. I also know quite a few people that the thought of missing the putt never enters their mind, or if it does, it is pushed away by concentration. I once heard John Houck say if you don't like where your disc landed, don't throw it there.

So here is the deal, if the player is concerned about loosing the putter, they will soft putt. In which case they have to conincide the break over to fall into the basket. I can do that and a lot of players can. Not everyone can do it well though. If I am not concerned about the putt, mainly because my partner has laid up, I may gun the putt, more force, straighter line for a longer range. However, if I am now worried about the putt going into the water I have to think real hard about it. If you were playing singles in a tournament would you agree to stop a putt? If you answer was no, why? For the same reasons I gave above. Just the fact the partner had laid up should be enough, but if I am worried about going into the water I may choose to putt differently.

With all that said, I would certainly agree to watch where the putt goes in and help fish it out.

thanks for the input everybody

the replies are about as i expected - i was just asking out of curiousity and to confirm

i figured i'd ask being i've encountered this potential situation twice in doubles (altho neither time, did a player actually have to stop the disc) and once in singles (again never actually needed) - altho in the singles, i think the player was mostly asking if somebody would stand near the water in the event the disc would 'roll' in, and snatch it up before it got too far out (not touching it until it was completely in water ofcourse)

and snatch it up before it got too far out (not touching it until it was completely in water of course)




Not until it has completely "stopped" of its own momentum. Otherwise, it's interference.

but how can u argue that a disc is moving under its own power once completely surrounded by water? in the event of a roll in, the disc might float a little first, which means extra movement could be caused by the current - at what point does it switch from being disc momentum to current and who can prove it? (the disc certainly isn't flying or rolling)

Just pointing out the specific rule that a disc must be at rest from its own momentum before it's officially OB. I doubt you'll get any complaints once the disc is in the water. But we all know that rollers might pass thru OB back to IB. Thus the rule requirement to technically wait until a reasonable person would say any motion is now from water movement, not the disc momentum.

agreed

A similar situation occurred a couple years ago to my friend's and I in a sanctioned tourney. We were all down in Am2 and happened to be paired together. The course we were at had a brutal extra 6 holes that all had water in play.

I played that tournament. I remember thinking, "What Richards. They sell discs so they set up six extra holes all on the edge of water where you probably cannot get your disc back. What total unmitigated Richards."

I played that tournament. I remember thinking, "What Richards. They sell discs so they set up six extra holes all on the edge of water where you probably cannot get your disc back. What total unmitigated Richards."



Tell me about it. After the day was over I had lost 4 discs into the river, including the players pack I had just gotten and my 9x aviar into the pond. Fortunately I got the 9x back, but not until almost a year later.

They look fun until you hit chains have it fall out of the basket and directly into a pond, only to take your drop 35ft away because that's the closest point not in the pond.

you forget...you don't have to take your next throw from the last place IB...you could take the option of throwing from the prior lie.

I have had people stand behind a basket between the basket and a huge nasty retention pond so that way when/if it goes into the water I would have a better idea of where it went in...and then if it looks like it is sinking faster than I can get to it, that person will pull it out of the water and place it where it went in.

One part of me is willing to say that if you are giving up the OB call, then knock yourself out!

Another part of me says that this is part of doubles strategy. The one who can't straddle or loft putt should lay up.

As stated in the scenario, I would have to say no can do. Learn to straddle putt.



Ok, the loft putt part is making sense to me. I'm not sure where you're coming from with the straddle putt though. Are you assuming they could straddle far enough to make the water less of an issue (sounds like an awfully short putt to be worried about water in that case to me) or do your straddle putts drop faster for some reason?