What do you think of these new plastics? Personally I am not jumping on the bandwagon.

Tell me again why I am being charged more for plastic that is far less durable??????? If I wanted more grip and less durablity I'd buy Pro or X plastic for LESS money than the super durable Champ and Z plastic.

In fact, I've been trading away my ESP and Star prizes for Champ and Z. It's mostly personal preference, I like the translucent centers for night discin as well. I play mostly wooded courses and don't like discs that change flight patterns every time I hit a tree. I also don't think the Z or Champ plastic has a grip problem as long as it's not wet or cold.

I think the idea is that Star is as durable as most champion plastic, but with more grip. You could ask Dave about the Star plastic. I like it more than ESP but no Champion, which there are some drivers not yet widely availble in Champion that is there in Star.

I totally agree except I'll throw champion for durability and DX in the rain for grip. I don't see an incredible difference between pro and star other then $5-$6. In a couple years everyone will probably release a different transparency of plastic and call it platinum line to charge us $16-$18 for a disc. I think star plastic should replace pro or cost less then champion without raising champion plastic. On the other hand I believe ESP is a step above all others of discraft's plastic.

From what I know, or have heard should say the Star type plastic actually costs less to make than the champion plastic. But thats just what I have heard.

The durability is still far above that of the Pro plastic and the grip level is just somewhat better in my opinion than the Champion line. I think it has its place, every plastic has its place. Throw what you want :)

Tell me again why I am being charged more for plastic that is far less durable??????? If I wanted more grip and less durablity I'd buy Pro or X plastic for LESS money than the super durable Champ and Z plastic.



Define durable.

Star and Esp both (especially ESP) are very durable.

I feel the Star wears slower than Champion. They both wear slow enough that I notice no change in flight over the practical life of the disc, unless I choose to change it.

ESP does not seem to wear unless you are throwing on an asphalt golf course...

Star and Esp really are the best compromises of durability, flight, and grip....

The best plastic ever was the old Elite Discraft plastic. It was a sad day when this plastic was discontinued.

So far I'm a big fan of Star Plastic, but only Star in certain Molds.
I do like the plastic as far as grip and overall feel. It has a nice feel to it that is a little easier on the hands in my opinion. I Only like the Star Sidewinder and Star Teerex right now out of what I have tried as the Teebird felt odd and other discs just aren't my type of disc. I also dont 'have much of a problem with the Durability thus far. I haven't noticed much of a difference in flight of my star discs except over time just like with champion. I haven't seen any that have changed dramatically because of a tree hit or any collision.
Can't wait to try the Aviar BB, Stingray, and Orc. Hoping Dave will make a Star Gremlin in the regular overstable mold!!

-Scott Lewis

I've had ESP Surge, STAR SL, ESP Meteor, ESP Pulse, and STAR Orc. Not a single one held up as good as Champ or Z plastic. I define durable as not taking a gouge out when hitting a tree, and not bending the rim. Like I said, I play where there are lot's of trees - ESP and STAR definitely taco, bend, curl, bow (whatever) much more easily than Champ and Z. I've had a Z Crush for 4 years that shows hardly any wear and I bet I've thrown it well over 1000 times.

I'm not into the new stuff because it's not the best of anything. Z and Champ are more durable. Pro, X, and DX are more grippy. So why pay more for something that isn't best in either category?? It's like charging more for the latest fad.

and that's your opinion and that's fine.... I like the feel so I am going to throw it.

my experiences have aligned with superberry's. some star i have seen is really grippy and nice though. i imagine these just had more "pro" plastic mixed in. i am throwing 1st run red SOLFs that are really grippy and more durable than the pro plastic. they are not as durable as the QOLF, and the grip [in this case] feels nearly identical. i think the price should be lower as well, as it seems that the general consensus is that they are not as durable as champion/z, and in my experiences, the grip of the star is SOMETIMES better than champ. there are certain champ discs out there with a grippier feel than certain star discs. also, it varys so much disc to disc that you really can't generalize too much. They are a blend of pro and champ plastics [someone please correct me if i am wrong], and should be priced as such.
on the other hand, as a business person, i see no wrong in asking top dollar for a disc more durable than pro and more grippy than champion.

IMHO; Star is not my favorite either. I have had SW, SL, TB, Valk, Shark and Trex. Still throw TL and Leopard. I have not seen much durability compared to Champion. My biggest problem is the staining and gouging. Same problem with my ESP Surge and Buzz which also broke-in quick. I am going back to Champion and Z. I have to say that Star and ESP produce a nice flight; Speed, Glide and Forgiveness of the early Pro, Pro/CE Blend and Elite X.

About Price; 1. They Have to go up sometime. 2. There are Research, Development and Production Costs.

Personally, I could learn to throw better and stop looking for the magic disc. That would save money and cut down on my stock of inferior discs. On the other purchasing hand; If I buy a new discs because it's cool, I have no complaint.

all the plastics throw differently which allows you to have 3 of the same disc in different plastics and have a variety of shots without changing hardly anything. i like esp plastic for drivers more than midrange. it seems to hold up better. i did replace alot of champion plastic with star and have recently found a happy medium. champion/Z is still the most stable and will hold up better in the long run.

From what I have come to understand, star plastic (and I would assume ESP as well) is regular champion plastic with an additive for grip. That is why the cost is higher. Now as far as my preferance goes, I prefer some molds of star plastic, but my favorite plastic is Pro. I carry as much pro as I can. The only star discs I have in my bag are Teebirds (Pro Teebirds are too hard to find) and a Teerex. The only champion discs I have are super overstable (Firebirds and a gator, and the only reason I have not switched to star is because I know I will lose a little bit of the overstableness) But if every mold in my bag was made in Pro plastic I doubt I would carry much else.

They are a blend of pro and champ plastics [someone please correct me if i am wrong],



Star discs are not a blend of Pro and Champion plastics, but the original CE discs were. Star is Champion plastic with an additive for grip.

They are a blend of pro and champ plastics [someone please correct me if i am wrong],



Star discs are not a blend of Pro and Champion plastics, but the original CE discs were. Star is Champion plastic with an additive for grip.



Is the additive more expensive than the champion plastic (like >$3.00 per pound)?

Is the additive more expensive than the champion plastic (like >$3.00 per pound)?



Yes, it is definitely more expensive than that but I can't give more details.

Esp is not as durrable as Z it never will be, but it does have more grip and more glide! If its durability you want Z or champion. its that simple

However, ESP/star is more durable than X/pro. I think it's a great blend, worthy of being labeled "the most durable grippy plastic available"

but.. in many cases [not all] it is no more grippy than champ/z, and less durable.

I agree, but it was never deemed any manufacturer's "most durable" line of plastic.

you are correct, but the point i was trying to make was that in some cases we are asked to pay more for a less durable disc with no better grip, or feel. In my experience, you have to hold the discs you want to buy, as some champ is more grippy than some star, and vice-versa. this makes it hard on us who mail order. I love some star i have seen, but other stuff i have seen feels just like champ. i am not complaining, just giving my 2 cents.

I agree, but it was never deemed any manufacturer's "most durable" line of plastic.

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winning response folks!

If you don't like it, don't buy it, if the manufacturers can't sell it, they won't make it. It is new tech, who cares if it costs more. Especially if the old tech is better, you should be happy because this might even drop the price of the older "better" technology.

Is the additive more expensive than the champion plastic (like >$3.00 per pound)?



Yes, it is definitely more expensive than that but I can't give more details.



They could always just use sanoprene instead. It is pretty freakin cheap. :DIMO some Star is decently grippy and some is slick while ESP seems to be a little more consistant and from looking in people's bags more durable as well. I really like the feel of the ESP Wasp.

Tell me again why I am being charged more for plastic that is far less durable??????? If I wanted more grip and less durablity I'd buy Pro or X plastic for LESS money than the super durable Champ and Z plastic.

So I've been throwing the same ESP Surges since early this spring and mine have held up extremely well durability-wise. They are my main drivers, so I have given them a lot of use. I've smacked them into plenty of trees and even some nasty hits into big rocks out in Maine this summer. Just a few small scuffs to show for it, and they are still significantly more overstable than my Z-Flashes.

I agree that Z-plastic is fantastic for durability; that's why I throw a lot of it. But in my experience ESP is pretty darn close. MUCH closer to Z than X for sure. My Surges have held up well enough that I'm now willing to try out a few more models in the ESP line. Plus, that ESP stuff does have a nice feel to it...

nanook

Tell me again why I am being charged more for plastic that is far less durable??????? If I wanted more grip and less durablity I'd buy Pro or X plastic for LESS money than the super durable Champ and Z plastic.

So I've been throwing the same ESP Surges since early this spring and mine have held up extremely well durability-wise. They are my main drivers, so I have given them a lot of use. I've smacked them into plenty of trees and even some nasty hits into big rocks out in Maine this summer. Just a few small scuffs to show for it, and they are still significantly more overstable than my Z-Flashes.

I agree that Z-plastic is fantastic for durability; that's why I throw a lot of it. But in my experience ESP is pretty darn close. MUCH closer to Z than X for sure. My Surges have held up well enough that I'm now willing to try out a few more models in the ESP line. Plus, that ESP stuff does have a nice feel to it...

nanook





....as Fred Durst would say, "We are in agreeance !" God help our children. :D

Just so long as we can be in agreeance that we may have a grievance so that we can express our personal views without misconceivance about taking things personally.

Thinking about the plastic, I guess my number 1 attribute is durability, so that is what I will pay most for. I think this shows for most other people as well with the price of old CE stuff on ebay too. That's why I don't "get" the new plastics. Like I said, my Z and Champ discs have NO gouges. All my ESP and Star plastic did, and I owned it for only a fraction of the time.

seems like esp is more durable than star. do you think the manufacturers get their plastic from the same places? [are star and esp the same, basically]?

Could you imagine the indestrucibility of an Z or Champion Devilhawk?

Could you imagine the indestrucibility of an Z or Champion Devilhawk?



that's the beauty of imaginary things: they are virtually indestructable ;)
(hence the continued Bush stance on Iraq) :eek:

My DevilHawk still looks like it did the day I bought it ... although I only see it fly over occasionally at a very high altitude. Hopefully it will land someday. Guess that's what I get for playing safari golf with it. ;)

I hope the disc-golfing astronaut isn't using a Devilhawk for the interstellar MTA record.

I felt up a lot of my plastic thanks to this thread. While the grippiness of the Star/Sirius varied from disc to disc, they all provided more friction than any Champion disc I could find. The white first run SOLFs with the Millenium stamp were the grippiest. I had less trouble feeling the difference between Z and ESP but the ESP is slightly tackier.

The other difference is the malleability of the plastics. The Champ is gummier so you may be getting a better grip on it since you can mash your thumb and fingers down into the flight plate a little deeper.

My Devilhawk won't be back for 76 years.

My ESP experience has been that it beats into a predictable flight path more quickly than Elite Z, but less quickly than Elite X, but holds it longer than X but not as long as Z. In lighter weights, it seems to lose less high speed stability, but has less low speed stability as compared to Z. I've not yet thrown any light weight X drivers(except the first run avengers, but I'm not sure those count as they had some freakish properties in comparison to other discs).

I guess what I draw from my experience is that you can grab an ESP disc and quickly beat it into the same flight path as a lost one, and it'll retain those characteristics longer. If you have a beat Z disc that's a main part of your bag, you should have one lightly used to replace it if it's ever lost, because it's not quick to 'tune'.

I like the grip of Star better than ESP. ESP still feels slick to me. I think it's really good plastic, but I won't be throwing ESP because I like it better. 80% of my bag is Star, and I'll be sticking with it. Feels good, flies great, and it lasts long enough for me. I've been throwing Star for a year, and none of my discs are ready to retire, or put away. I've only cut one of them, and it was easy to fix. Flies just like it did at the beginning of summer, maybe better.