I recently was in a situation where a player throws a shot and lands in a blind area potentially OB. After everyone throws, he runs ahead to check the location of the disc. The group arrives at the disc, and miraculously, it's already marked "in-bounds."

Is there anything we can call to prevent a player from marking his lie before the group sees the spot of the lie? Is it a courtesy violation to run ahead and mark it before the group can approach the lie?

Read 803.09D

803.09 D. If the in-bounds status of a disc is uncertain, either a majority of the group or an official shall make the determination. If the thrower moves the disc before a determination has been made, the disc shall be considered out-of-bounds, and he or she shall proceed in accordance with 803.09 B

That determiniation is anywhere within 1 meter of OB, even if that is inbounds. If there was a question about it's status you could tell the player that within 1 meter of OB the lie is in question until verified by a majority of the group or by an official. This also means that if you are within 1 meter of OB you should always get a ruling before marking your disc.


I recently was in a situation where a player throws a shot and lands in a blind area potentially OB. After everyone throws, he runs ahead to check the location of the disc. The group arrives at the disc, and miraculously, it's already marked "in-bounds."

Is there anything we can call to prevent a player from marking his lie before the group sees the spot of the lie? Is it a courtesy violation to run ahead and mark it before the group can approach the lie?

I mustn't have been clear. My question is regards to the act of running up and potentially moving the disc before the group arrives at the disc.

I understand the rule on the location of the actual disc and determining if it's IB/OB, but how can we prevent a player from running up to an area blind to the rest of the group before the group approaches that area?

1. Run faster.

2. Ask him to wait.

Tell him/her to wait until the group can see the disc or it will be an automatic out of bounds.

The player can't move the disc meaning they can't mark it with a mini before an IB/OB determination is made. Otherwise, the disc is declared OB. Even if a disc is OB, I would want to see where it is so the player doesn't maybe take a more favorable mark IB.

The unfortunate loophole is that the player could still go ahead and move the disc from OB to IB and leave it on the ground for all to see before marking it and the group would not know whether the player moved it if they were out of sight of the group. Players can certainly ask the player not to go ahead.

Yup, player ran thru the loophole. We told him not to do it, but our hands were tied as far as doing something about it.

Thanks again for your responses..

I am sorry I did not clarify. What I meant is that since the disc was marked, without group review, the determination was in question. I am willing to bet the player did not mark the disc 1 m from the OB line, therefore his mark, before verification automatically made the disc OB. The loop hole is if the disc was moved further than 1 m from OB. Was it? You could also tell a player that if they run up to the disc and move it, before verification, that by rule it is assumed and penalized as OB. You can say that, even if the disc had been more than 1 m from the OB. It seems to me that you did and did not realize that you could call the lie in question. You would not have called him on cheating, you would have simply stated that the rule does not care if the disc is in bounds or not, if it is not reviewed when it is close then it is out.


Yup, player ran thru the loophole. We told him not to do it, but our hands were tied as far as doing something about it.

Thanks again for your responses..

Jerry, the loophole is the rule doesn't say the group has to see the lie before the player goes on ahead, just that the player can't touch the disc until someone sees it. However, if the player goes ahead and moves the disc from OB to IB without the group seeing it, waits until they come and see the disc on the ground, there's no rule the group can invoke to penalize that potential cheating. Thus, the loophole. Even claiming a courtesy violation after asking, and the player still going ahead, would only result in a warning.

Chuck, I understand what you are saying, but the disc was marked before verification. This is in direct violation of the rule. If the disc itself had been moved and not marked then yes, there is a loop hole here, but in this situation, the act of marking the disc could result in the shot being penalized.

I agree that if the player marks it then the OB applies. I pointed out the loophole and he then said the player did use it. So, now I'm not sure if the disc was marked or it just happened to be IB before being marked.

arg..

Okay, I'm sorry for confusing the situation. For the sake of this discussion, let's say by the time we approached his lie, it was the disc sitting in bounds, not his mini (marked lie.)

So to clear things up:

Player A throws to a blind area with lots o' OB nearby. After everyone throws, we know he's "out" (next to throw) and he runs up to his disc in front of the group. The group cannot see if its IB or OB until significant time after he's already arrived at the disc, which is now sitting IB. There is speculation the disc was OB and moved IB before we approached him/the lie. We cannot prove it was moved, nor can we (within the rules) force him to not run up before the entire group. As a courtesy, we can ask him to wait for the whole group to see it together, but legally we cannot penalize him for running up (nor can we even hit him with a warning or courtesy violation - at least I didn't see that action listed as a courtesy violation)..

Am I understanding this correctly?

Only if his lie is ahead of another lie, so he is "advancing on the fairway beyond the away player". If he is the away player, there is nothing that says he must wait on the group to proceed to his lie.

If the IB/OB status of a disc was uncertain as expressed by one or more players in the group and a player was asked to wait so they could all go look at the lie together and make the "group call" determination and the player refused to wait, then I think that's clearly a courtesy violation of:


C. Refusal to perform an action expected by the rules , such as assisting in the search for a lost disc, moving discs or equipment, or keeping score properly, etc., is a courtesy violation.

But at most it's a warning. Can more than one player in the group give a warning for the same violation so it counts as a penalty?

Is that a serious question or a quiz?

In either case, the answer would be no:


The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent courtesy violation of any type in the same round.

It seems the big issue was the uncertainty of the rest of the group as to the IB/OB status of the disc. As such what if someone told player A before he ran up that he thinks Player A should wait so the group can make an IB/OB determination? Would that change things? If such was the case it would seem more than a warning as Player A would have flaunted the group. This would be different from the group later saying we really ought to have seen it.

I think running up is common, and not so nefarious, when its a concern over losing a disc that nobody thinks is OB. Player A chucks one into the woods or weeds or whatever. He is really trying to get a little more than the three minutes to find the disc figuring the clock doesn't start in anybody's mind until he is again the away disc. I suspect this breaks the rules but we often allow it because it helps speed up play as long as we don't have any of those trust issues inherent in your original hypothetical..

OK, so Player B asks Player A not to advance to check the disc in the blind location but player A advances anyway. Player B assesses Player A with a courtesy violation [801.01B or C]. Player C then calls a courtesy violation on Player A for being rude to Player C [804.05A(1)] and thus we have a subsequent warning and penalty.

Now we're taking a big leap and assuming that more than one person in a group would actually call someone on the rules and stroke them...

I can see buddies planning an ambush like this on someone in their group that tends to run ahead in general. :D

I've got no problem with them running ahead to find the disc, just don't get any closer than you need to to verify that it's inbounds. If it's OB, go ahead and get it. Retreiving it will not change it's status.

The rule states for each subsequent violation. I don't think one event can generate multiple calls and I don't think any TD would allow it either. Worse case would be a warning, if the disc had not been marked and no-one actually saw the disc get moved. However, the damage to a reputation would last for years.


OK, so Player B asks Player A not to advance to check the disc in the blind location but player A advances anyway. Player B assesses Player A with a courtesy violation [801.01B or C]. Player C then calls a courtesy violation on Player A for being rude to Player C [804.05A(1)] and thus we have a subsequent warning and penalty.

It would be pretty ballsy to run ahead and move your disc from OB to IB, and assume that nobody is paying attention, and that you wouldn't get caught, risking disqualification and sure humiliation in the disc golf community. The doubt of the disc's status probably occured after the group saw that it was IB. Considering that it flew into a "blind" spot, you never know what branch (or whatever) it hit, or how it skipped, or cut-rolled. If you have an issue with a player's integrity, or if the group is concerned with the disc's status (i.e. maybe you're on the lead card, and a penalty would be critical) and you think that they might be OB, then don't lollygag behind him to give him the opportunity to cheat, keep up. We're still a self officiated sport, you don't see an ump in baseball calling balls and strikes from the dugout.

golf is a game of integrity. as a player, i do not feel it is my responsibility to chase players around in the woods to try and catch them cheating. on the other hand, i have to demonstrate integrity to the game by calling violations (i.e. foot faults, courtesy) when i see them.

in order to protect myself from being worked by "competitors" who'd use the guise of protecting the integrity of the game as a pretext to accuse me of something that their was zero evidence to support, i may have to get a "rules buddy" to hold my hand and walk with me to find my disc every time that isn't in plain sight.

I know if I did that and didn't tell the rest of the group I was out of bounds the guilt would get to me anyway. I don't see the purpose in lieing over a shot like that. I also try not to call violations. Unless it is clear just warn the person don't mess with them during a round while your competing against them.

there is nothing that says he must wait on the group to proceed to his lie.



Nothing except perhaps common courtesy and respect for other players, which is difficult if not impossible to write into a rule book.

there is nothing that says he must wait on the group to proceed to his lie.



Nothing except perhaps common courtesy and respect for other players, which is difficult if not impossible to write into a rule book.



And if he's thrown it somewhere questionable, as a competitor I'm going to either get there when he does or ask him to hold up until the group arrives. If he goes running off in spite of this it will look a little ridiculous and at least you'll understand where he's coming from . . . seems silly to imagine a person running off after you've said something like "hold up so we can make sure it's in or out of bounds . . .." it's not really a request that doesn't make sense.

there is nothing that says he must wait on the group to proceed to his lie.



Nothing except perhaps common courtesy and respect for other players, which is difficult if not impossible to write into a rule book.



And if he's thrown it somewhere questionable, as a competitor I'm going to either get there when he does or ask him to hold up until the group arrives. If he goes running off in spite of this it will look a little ridiculous and at least you'll understand where he's coming from . . . seems silly to imagine a person running off after you've said something like "hold up so we can make sure it's in or out of bounds . . .." it's not really a request that doesn't make sense.



And it's a reasonable request as well. Polite people will heed the request of the group and not run ahead. Rude people will ignore it.

What people are unaware of here is, the guy threw a red Phoenix on his drive, but when he got to his disc, he found out that not only was it miraculously in bounds, but it had morphed into a Comet. About a week later, somebody found the phoenix deep in the woods.

What people are unaware of here is, the guy threw a red Phoenix on his drive, but when he got to his disc, he found out that not only was it miraculously in bounds, but it had morphed into a Comet. About a week later, somebody found the phoenix deep in the woods.



That is pretty hard to swallow. Even a Meteor shouldn't be able to morph into a Comet. Possibly the other way around though, I'm not an expert in that field...

Moving forward, I hope the rules committee will consider re-wording the rule so that more than one player on a card must approach a disc's lie at the same time.

Moving forward, I hope the rules committee will consider re-wording the rule so that more than one player on a card must approach a disc's lie at the same time.



In the meantime, I would hope that a courtesy violation was called


C. Refusal to perform an action expected by the rules , such as assisting in the search for a lost disc, moving discs or equipment, or keeping score properly, etc., is a courtesy violation.



and the Tournament Director was informed, and everyone in the group told everyone else at the tournament about this incident so that the golfer in question is never, ever tempted to perform such a dubious action again.

Moving forward, I hope the rules committee will consider re-wording the rule so that more than one player on a card must approach a disc's lie at the same time.



In the meantime, I would hope that a courtesy violation was called


C. Refusal to perform an action expected by the rules , such as assisting in the search for a lost disc, moving discs or equipment, or keeping score properly, etc., is a courtesy violation.



and the Tournament Director was informed, and everyone in the group told everyone else at the tournament about this incident so that the golfer in question is never, ever tempted to perform such a dubious action again.



Jeff, there is NOTHING in the rules preventing a player from running ahead of the group to check his lie. As such, we could not even cite him with a courtesy violation.

Jeff, there is NOTHING in the rules preventing a player from running ahead of the group to check his lie. As such, we could not even cite him with a courtesy violation.



Yes, there is. If the IB/OB status of a disc was uncertain as expressed by one or more players in the group and a player was asked to wait so they could all go look at the lie together and make the "group call" determination and the player refused to wait, then I think that's clearly a courtesy violation. I would not hesitate one bit to call that, or second someone else's call.

Jeff, there is NOTHING in the rules preventing a player from running ahead of the group to check his lie. As such, we could not even cite him with a courtesy violation.



Yes, there is. If the IB/OB status of a disc was uncertain as expressed by one or more players in the group and a player was asked to wait so they could all go look at the lie together and make the "group call" determination and the player refused to wait, then I think that's clearly a courtesy violation. I would not hesitate one bit to call that, or second someone else's call.



Erg..I mustn't be clear. When we arrived at the disc, it was clearly in bounds. My point is that there is nothing to stop a player from advancing ahead of the group to "check" his/her lie.

Erg..I mustn't be clear. When we arrived at the disc, it was clearly in bounds. My point is that there is nothing to stop a player from advancing ahead of the group to "check" his/her lie.



As soon as the disc was thrown, the IB/OB status of a disc was recognized by everyone in the group as uncertain. The rules clearly state that if the in-bounds status of a disc is uncertain, either a majority of the group or an official shall make the determination. If the thrower moves the disc before a determination has been made, the disc shall be considered out-of-bounds, and he or she shall proceed in accordance with 803.09 B. Again, if someone was asked to wait so that the group could all go look at the lie together and make the "group call" determination and the player refused to wait, and ran ahead where the lie would be out of sight of the group and possibly moved by the player, then I think that's clearly a courtesy violation. I would not hesitate one bit to call that, or second someone else's call.