I am wondering which plastic people like the most.

I just got a Buzzz and a Torque in ESP and it is easily my new favorite. I love the grip, but can't speak to the durability.

Gateway S. Best combination of ideal flight, durability and grip. Second Choice would be Discraft X

Evolution, hands down.

Gateway's E plastic

Funny...the two Gateway guys like their plastic....thats a satisfied production team.

I like E plastic okay. I like S as well. But I really like Star plastic, with a close second being Pro Line (only for understable/turnover drivers).

I don't care much for Discraft at all.

But Evolution does feel nice....I recently found a couple E palastic discs. I saber and a spirit. I like the spirit so far. The grip is almost too small for my fingers though.

The Saber, though I haven't thrown it yet, seems like a nice disc as well.

I just love em' all! :D

I am partial to my 'E' volution Plastic :) but I have to give the nod to the Star Plastic, Proline and ESP stuff I like the feel of

1. Gateway S
2. Discraft x
3. Gateway E

First run ESP Surge plastic! Why Discraft X? I don't find those discs that grippy and the durability is a joke. I think Gateway S is a classic, but the Evolution is still far too inconsistent to even be considered a single plastic. Inferno plastic is not what you guys are referring to as the best, but it still says Evolution. You guys should be more specific like "the E plastic that my orange ELX is made of".

I like the Star plastic quite a bit, but durabilty is not nearly as nice as the Champion plastic.

Gateway plastic would definitely be the top, although I have also noticed the many differences in E plastic.

As for what I like to throw, S plastic for sure (it is definitely the best base plastic out there), the new DX in some models, and Star. Star may not be as durable as Champ, Z, or even ESP, but I really like the feel of the discs that I have in Star and I've found them to be pretty consistent disc to disc -- they definitely will get scuffed more (pavement, etc.) but as for everyday tree hits and normal wear and tear, they're great. Champion and Z were always too slick and too stiff for me. Also, I've been using a couple of the same Star discs for 6 months or more and I haven't needed to change up a thing.

ESP
Z
S
D

Duh... CE of course. :D Although waaaaaaaaaaay too expensive to keep much of in the bag anymore. Star plastic is nice too.

Original SE (Tee Bird) plastic & the pre-Candy-mix KC 10x Tee Birds. SWEETEST!

I love the old 10x stuff personally. CE was nice, but not as nice as the 10x. Thankfully, Gateway's softer E plastic is really similar.

Day-Glo 2nd Run CE
1st Run CE
Stiff Red Star
ESP
Some E
CFR GLO

Millenniums SIRIUS plastic is great

The E plastic in the white Hybrids is the best feeling plastic ever...

better than my 01 ce stuff, better than the 8-9-or 10 time Kc stuff and yes even better than the SE plastic from that same time.

No Contest.

my.02579040815

Lightning Prostyle! :eek: :D

Lightning U-2...! ;)

And to add to my last, I love the Star plastic in Yellow. It seems to grip well and is fairly durable. Second favorite would be the Red Star. Oddly enough Red star seems to hold it's original flight charactistics longer, but yellow breaks in faster. Just my opinion.

I prefer DX plastic. I do use Star discs as well.

Overall I prefer DX as well, great grip, great D/flight...but it doesn't make 'tourney-sense'...

Hitting a tree with DX is like a box of chocklits... :eek:
.02

Gummy Champion, hands down!

For myself , it really depends on the exact weather conditions !!! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The E plastic in the white Hybrids is the best feeling plastic ever...

better than my 01 ce stuff, better than the 8-9-or 10 time Kc stuff and yes even better than the SE plastic from that same time.

No Contest.

my.02579040815



I know what you're talking about. I got one of my E Hybrids worked in, and it was amazing...Too bad I can't throw that disc!

ESP

Gummy Champion, hands down!



Yea, what Ray said!

In regards to a couple of posts in this thread:
...but the Evolution is still far too inconsistent to even be considered a single plastic. Inferno plastic is not what you guys are referring to as the best, but it still says Evolution. You guys should be more specific like "the E plastic that my orange ELX is made of".

and
Duh... CE of course. Although waaaaaaaaaaay too expensive to keep much of in the bag anymore. Star plastic is nice too.

Can anyone point me to an existing thread dealing with the changing consistency of some plastics? How frustrating is it when you find a plastic you love, in a mold you love, and then the formula changes or goes out of production? After reading lots of threads, some plastics seem held in such high regard that I can't fathom why they're not still used. Personally, I've got a few older Millenium discs that are made out of the opaque/translucent Quantum plastic. The new discs in the clear plastic just can't hold a candle to those older discs. I'd probably still throw Millenium exclusively if I could get all the Millenium molds in that classic Quantum plastic! What's the deal? raw materials no longer available from suppliers? not cost effective? disc makers got bored?

nanook

as far as CE plastic is concerened I believe the PDGA decided it was too hard and they asked innova to change their blend.

Really? Wow, I had never heard that! Guess you learn something new every day. Too bad though, I've heard the old Quantum stuff I liked was very CE-like. I guess that's why people are asking for big bucks for some of the old QJLSs on ebay.

*Thread drift alert* So Pat, are you getting hyped for the start of this year's Winter Warrior series? I'm chomping at the bit...

nanook

as far as CE plastic is concerened I believe the PDGA decided it was too hard and they asked innova to change their blend.

I'm pretty sure that this is not true. Dave has stated more than once that the CE plastic was too failure ridden. Too many X outs cost to much money. Besides, the current Z and Champion plastics are easily as hard as the CE plastic.

that could be it also, I know that champ/z have the lowest sucess rates from all current plastics, and wasnt CE supposed to be denser than champ?

As for winter warriors I am pretty excited, I only made it to ft collins last time around and had a blast.

Edit: looking around I found that champ is supposed to be more versitle as far as molding. So I geuss I was wrong, I am interested to find where I heard that it was too hard.... (sorry for the misinformation eric)

as far as CE plastic is concerened I believe the PDGA decided it was too hard and they asked innova to change their blend.

I'm pretty sure that this is not true. Dave has stated more than once that the CE plastic was too failure ridden. Too many X outs cost to much money. Besides, the current Z and Champion plastics are easily as hard as the CE plastic.



You guys are both right. I clearly remember Dave D. saying something years ago about CE plastic being borderline in terms of meeting the rigidity standards. He also mentioned something about the polymers changing on the supply side, and definetely has spoke of the high rate of rejects when molding CE.

While all of these answers have some truth to them, I think the fact that CE plastic was SO GOOD had a lot to do with its demise. In the early 90's Innova changed its dx plastic and durability went out the window. I still see a lot of dx plastic still around from before the change, and it is indeed better dx plastic than Innova has made since in terms of durability. This upset a lot of pros, and it is one of the reasons Scott Stokely went to Discraft. The reason Innova changed its plastic then and again in 2001 in my opinion is because it was seriously hurting their ability to profit and grow. The need to sell discs, and when the discs fly great and last forever, who is buying new ones? I believe Innova is in business for golfers and they want to make quality products, but examples of American business's that have failed because they made products that lasted too long are very numerous. Sony TVs made in the 80s are one example I can think of. My parents bought one in 1986 and when they replaced a couple of years ago because the tube was shot, the technician told them that no TVs are made that well any more, not because it cost more to make them that good, but because it cost them future business. Ford Escorts of the late 80s, and Oldsmobile Cutlass Cieras of the mid 80s are a couple more famous examples of a company being hurt by making their products last a long time. This is the American way: Overwork, overproduce, overbuy, overuse, throw away, buy again. It is Walmart. I remember in A Brave New World citizens were constantly bombarded with propagandized messages, one of which went to the tune of "I hate old things, I want new things".

So, the Innova plastic thing is way too complex for a quick answer. People should not raz Innova for this, they are a business and this is America. If they do not succeed, neither does Disc Golf.

You guys are both right. I clearly remember Dave D. saying something years ago about CE plastic being borderline in terms of meeting the rigidity standards. He also mentioned something about the polymers changing on the supply side, and definetely has spoke of the high rate of rejects when molding CE.

These are issues I can understand; unfortunate, but I can understand them. I would be more disappointed if it was because of making a product that was designed to wear out faster. Although considering what I have experienced with Elite-Z, I would be surprised if that was the case. Now if they stop making Z, I'm going to be #$*&$!!

nanook

Working in the supply side there are a couple of more things to consider. One thing I remember being discussed was that most Disc Golf Manufacturers buy polymers that are made for something else. I do not know this to be true, but I do believe it to be so. Disc Golf companies purchase so little polymer that they can not claim to be the main customer. For instance, I have heard that a lot of Gateway discs use excess polymer from PVC plastics. This is third hand hearsay, so take it for what it is worth.

If the DG company is not the major purchaser then they can only buy what is spec'd for something else. For instance, let us assume Whamo is a major purchaser and they probably are. If they purchase a plastic then Innova may get an additional tank of polymer from Whamo's order.

If it is off spec, it may meet Innova's needs, but not Whamo's. Off spec is NOT made intentionally, it is an accident and the plastics companies are very happy to sell it. They also tend not to make it again. It is possible that CE was an off spec plastic. One thing that makes a plastic off spec is hardening or set time, viscosity, durability, thermal characteristics, rigidity, ability to take dyes, etc. If CE plastic had a high X-out rate, then it would be considered an off spec polymer. So it may not simply be that the plastic was too good, it may be that for molding and selling it was too bad, from a manufacturer's stand point.

Anyway, all of this is supposition and not necessarily the truth.




You guys are both right. I clearly remember Dave D. saying something years ago about CE plastic being borderline in terms of meeting the rigidity standards. He also mentioned something about the polymers changing on the supply side, and definetely has spoke of the high rate of rejects when molding CE.

as far as CE plastic is concerened I believe the PDGA decided it was too hard and they asked innova to change their blend.



CE was and still is the best plastic polymer when you consider the three main concerns of golfers: grippiness, durability, and flight characteristics. Just imagine if Innova made Wraiths or TeeRex's in CE plastic instead of the Star polymer. The reason why I quoted the earlier post is because I find this hard to believe. When CE hit the market, golfers loved everything about it! You would buy what you needed and as long as you didn't lose it, you would never have to buy another one because the durability was so good. Innova recognized the fact that this isn't good for sales and discontinued the CE polymer. It's just like having to buy these expensive razors for shaving...Gillette could make the everlasting razor.....but why? They'd lose money!

Working in the supply side there are a couple of more things to consider. One thing I remember being discussed was that most Disc Golf Manufacturers buy polymers that are made for something else. I do not know this to be true, but I do believe it to be so. Disc Golf companies purchase so little polymer that they can not claim to be the main customer. For instance, I have heard that a lot of Gateway discs use excess polymer from PVC plastics. This is third hand hearsay, so take it for what it is worth.





[/QUOTE]
We (Gateway) have never made discs out of ( flexible)PVC you probably heard TPV.
I know pvc is very cost effective for a lot of products, but there are serious problems that can occur if the barrel temperatures were to get too high or if it was allowed to degrade by setting in the barrel too long.
I think people can die, expect discs made in China to be made out of flexible PVC!
It has something to do with the Chloride, most molding companies here in St Louis wont even allow it in there shop.
PVC is very in inexpensive (.90 -$1.30 lb) compared to $3.50-$4.00 A lb) for the high end polyurethane.

Ill some up what I know about using different grades of polyurethane.
1st of all there are about 5000 different TPU's on the market from soft to hard.
If you narrow it down to the flexibility used for golf discs it would still be around 4-500 products.
Most high end tpu's like orginal CE were made from, have physical properties that are needed for chemical and oil resistance, like Hydraulic lines and the covering of underground cables.

The lower the melt flow of the TPU, the "tougher the ploymer" and the more durable the part. If you use a really low melt flow TPU it is very VERY hard to fill through a .070 flight plate into a 3/4" triangular rim without either flashing it a bunch or running a lot of short shots. Short shots ( X-outs) arent good for retail sales and the flashing on the "tougher" Material is really REALLY hard to trim.

I'm guessing original CE was made from a low melt flow TPU which caused lots of bad parts for theway the golf disc molds are designed ( center gated).

If the golf disc were just a part it would be mlded from the edge, most likely with multiple gates, which wouldnt make the discs look as good as they do.

We use lower melt TPU's in our "E" Evolution Pro-Line, but increase the flow by adding higher melt flow materials in the mix like H and other tpu's and have been doing it for 4 years!
Star is most likely done in similar fashion.

Didnt mean to stop the discussion.
If anyone has any techncal questions about polymers Id be more than happy to share the information.
Hey you got 250K maybe you can start you own company :D

Thanks, that was very informative. As I said I had heard the information third hand. It probably started as TPV and was misheard as PVC. It did seem a little odd, since I have not seen a disc quite as stiff as PVC. By the way, I also heard baby diaper plastic.



We (Gateway) have never made discs out of ( flexible)PVC you probably heard TPV.
I know pvc is very cost effective for a lot of products, but there are serious problems that can occur if the barrel temperatures were to get too high or if it was allowed to degrade by setting in the barrel too long.
I think people can die, expect discs made in China to be made out of flexible PVC!
It has something to do with the Chloride, most molding companies here in St Louis wont even allow it in there shop.
PVC is very in inexpensive (.90 -$1.30 lb) compared to $3.50-$4.00 A lb) for the high end polyurethane.

Ill some up what I know about using different grades of polyurethane.
1st of all there are about 5000 different TPU's on the market from soft to hard.
If you narrow it down to the flexibility used for golf discs it would still be around 4-500 products.
Most high end tpu's like orginal CE were made from, have physical properties that are needed for chemical and oil resistance, like Hydraulic lines and the covering of underground cables.

The lower the melt flow of the TPU, the "tougher the ploymer" and the more durable the part. If you use a really low melt flow TPU it is very VERY hard to fill through a .070 flight plate into a 3/4" triangular rim without either flashing it a bunch or running a lot of short shots. Short shots ( X-outs) arent good for retail sales and the flashing on the "tougher" Material is really REALLY hard to trim.

I'm guessing original CE was made from a low melt flow TPU which caused lots of bad parts for theway the golf disc molds are designed ( center gated).

If the golf disc were just a part it would be mlded from the edge, most likely with multiple gates, which wouldnt make the discs look as good as they do.

We use lower melt TPU's in our "E" Evolution Pro-Line, but increase the flow by adding higher melt flow materials in the mix like H and other tpu's and have been doing it for 4 years!
Star is most likely done in similar fashion.

Innova recognized the fact that this isn't good for sales and discontinued the CE polymer.



There is no CE because it is a supply issue. Innova is unable to acquire the same material that produced these discs. It is not for lack of trying, the material simply is not available.

Suppositions that Innova would make a less durable plastic to force customers to buy more product are counter-intuitive. Lowering the quality of a product is not a good way to increase sales nor keep cutomers. If a company makes an inferior product it will likely decrease sales and drive customers to other manufacturers.

That is what I had heard as well and was trying to say when I was talking about buying polymer lots. It probably is possible to make the same polymer again, it is simply that such a small order is not cost effective for the polymer manufacturer.



Innova recognized the fact that this isn't good for sales and discontinued the CE polymer.



There is no CE because it is a supply issue. Innova is unable to acquire the same material that produced these discs. It is not for lack of trying, the material simply is not available.

Suppositions that Innova would make a less durable plastic to force customers to buy more product are counter-intuitive. Lowering the quality of a product is not a good way to increase sales nor keep cutomers. If a company makes an inferior product it will likely decrease sales and drive customers to other manufacturers.

Suppositions that Innova would make a less durable plastic to force customers to buy more product are counter-intuitive. Lowering the quality of a product is not a good way to increase sales nor keep cutomers. If a company makes an inferior product it will likely decrease sales and drive customers to other manufacturers.



Finally, a grain of reason in a desert of wild conspiratorial supposition. Kudos!

BTW - I LOVE to play with girls!