Just got the email from the PDGA and found this very interesting...I would love to see the thoughts of the people on this board regarding this decision:


Amnesty For Pro Players Membership fees will be going up in 2007. A general amnesty has been granted in consideration of those Pro players, current or not, who may not be as competitive or as active as they once were but want to continue being a valued PDGA member. Any Pro player wishing to return to Amateur status may do so no questions asked between now and the end of 2006. Your 2007 Am renewal must be received by December 31, 2006 in order to take advantage of this amnesty. After January 1, 2007 anyone wishing to reclassify from Pro to Am will once again be subject to a petition process. Renew or join here.

I think they should post the names of the first 500 of these renewals.



:D

It definately has some interesting complications...

When registering for a tourney in 2007...the TD will not only have to check the ratings, but also the "*" that allows them to be MA1's...

or can they even go lower???

I can also see it as a decent push to make the PRO fields even bigger in the long run..letting some come down and kick the AM's around may meld the 2 divisions more and make PRO more entertaining for life long AM's

I think you misunderstand what the amnesty means. There will be no indication on the member card that the person was ever a Pro and they will have the same rights as any other Am including playing in the Am Worlds. There's no rating limit. Even Ken or Barry could switch if they wish and go for the Am Worlds and Am National titles they never won.

Huh I may have to look into this. I won just as much in plastic as I do as a pro anyway. :D

I think you misunderstand what the amnesty means. There will be no indication on the member card that the person was ever a Pro and they will have the same rights as any other Am including playing in the Am Worlds. There's no rating limit. Even Ken or Barry could switch if they wish and go for the Am Worlds and Am National titles they never won.



No..I follow you Chuck..that was my point..anyone can do this that is pro if they get it done before 2007 starts..

I guess their 2007 cards would show AM, but how often does the TD look at that versus just checking the players rating.

I can't recall to many events I have actually had to produce my PDGA card since the TD usually already has the info.

I could make the ironic choice of switching to Am for 2007 to vie for the GM title at Am Worlds in Milwaukee shortly before TDing the Pro Worlds at Highbridge. I played Advanced anyway a few times this year until my rating stuck at 955. Hmmm...

agreed..there are tons of interesting ramifications to go with this...

just curious about the input from others on this one..the new email was great...I do hope to see one at least once a month and twice would be good

I'll bite.

I have had a professional card since 1997. In the last 4 years or so, I've played probably 8 sanctioned events. I'm just not able to play as much as in the past. My rating would have me in Advanced. Heck, I can play intermediate men if I wanted to. The last 2 years, I have played one sanctioned event a year.

It is a temptation to save a few bucks on my membership, given the amount of tournaments I play.

Yet another good point and I think the intention they were looking for...

I guess it goes back to when they allowed PRO players with a certain rating to play MA1

I am sure in know some Grand Masters and Masters that might even enjoy playing in a bigger field and showing the young guns how to throw a Midnight Flyer, Hooker, ect. or something along those lines :D

2007 may prove interesting for those borderline PRO/MA1's..

I understand the discussion but moving down the ladder is a bad Idea for the PDGA. I know it was difficult to handle last year but the Pro 2 division was a good idea on the BoD's part and should be brought back for just this situation. not everyone who plays ball golf at a professional level is on the Tour. there are other pro levels for them as there should be for us as we move forward. I think by adding more pro divisions and eventually lowering the Am standards the sport will thrive and probably grow even quicker than it is currently.

berd

Pro-2 sounds like a much better solution. Lower entry fees and lower payout.

Pro 2 is a bad idea and hopefully will never come back. Pro 2 has the potential to suck all the added cash and expense money out of the tournament. That's why no one offered it when it existed.

On topic, Anita should go am and play men's rec and men's int, like Kelsey and Marie. Her rating is 100 points below the best pro women. At most of her tournaments she has no competitors in the Pro Woman division. She could be a contender at Worlds or Women's Nationals as an amateur. She would just be added cash as a pro.

I have no problem with this allowance per se, but it is just another tactic to counteract the ills created by our system. One fix after another, after another, after another. Maybe they should step back and ask themselves, "Why must we continually prop this up? What is fundamentally wrong?"

And since it was mentioned, it is absurd to structure your competitive structure around the perceived needs of the TDs.

so don't add cash to the pro 2 field

I am 100 points below the top pro's and am starting to play pro
I ain't scared

if I was a ball golfer and was 10 behind on my handicap and could not compete at a national level with boys on tour and there was this smaller tour where I could compete I would be excited about the possibilities.

I don't think they really gave pro2 a chance,we had a few events here in NC that offered pro2 and it seemed well received.

the biggest problem with our current structure is the ratings cutoffs

EVERYONE OF THEM IS TO HIGH

If you lowered everyone of them by 100 points you would see the niche that pro2 could offer lower rated pro's and higher rated am's.

I have no problem with this allowance per se, but it is just another tactic to counteract the ills created by our system. One fix after another, after another, after another. Maybe they should step back and ask themselves, "Why must we continually prop this up? What is fundamentally wrong?"

And since it was mentioned, it is absurd to structure your competitive structure around the perceived needs of the TDs.



I offered a lowering of the ratings standards to fix this

and i agree cater to the playas not the TD's

and before anyone jumps on me I am running a b-tier in Nov. so I know the issues

I would offer pro2

On topic, Anita should go am and play men's rec and men's int, like Kelsey and Marie. Her rating is 100 points below the best pro women. At most of her tournaments she has no competitors in the Pro Woman division. She could be a contender at Worlds or Women's Nationals as an amateur. She would just be added cash as a pro.



You assume that I would have the time to play those events. ;) I tend to play smaller non-sanctioned events more. In those, I usually play Am Masters just to give my long-time golfing buds some grief. There aren't too many recs or intermediates around here at the moment.

My point in posting is to point out that the situation is not a "it's good" or "it's bad" deal. There are many people in the PDGA with a great variety of life circumstances. To make the blanket statement that this is a bad thing for the PDGA is not accurate.

Many people only see things from the top am/pro perspective. There are many people in the protected divisions where a change in status is not wrong.

One of the biggest reasons for pro 2 is there is a big gap between a top advanced player and a cashing pro. When I first stepped up I felt it would be easy to cash, but it's not. After a while, my game improved to where it needed to be to cash.

Pro 2 provided these players a chance to help bridge that gap before stepping up with big dogs and helped not frustrate in most cases, golfers with a lot of talent, just no much consistency.

Pro 2 exists. It's called Advanced. Pros under 955 can enter it. The only thing missing which may be addressed for 2007 is to allow the pros the option to accept their merch prizes as cash at 50% of the merch value. We did this at the Mid-Nationals to test the idea.

That was a key problem with Pro 2 for TDs because pros could accept their prizes as cash at 100%. This uncertainty upset the payout calcs not knowing the number of ams and pros who would cash. With pros only getting to accept the merch prizes as cash at 50%, TDs would have a much more stable conversion scenario.

and before anyone jumps on me I am running a b-tier in Nov. so I know the issues

I would offer pro2



You are running a "B" Tier?? or you have RUN a "B" Tier??

BIG difference...........

Pro2 = POO POO

I anticipate some poo flinging on this topic.

It's not the added cash, it's the absence of the added cash. Most of the gross profit on a tournament comes from Advanced Amateurs. That money is used to pay the park and the PDGA their rake. The PDGA rake at the last tournament I ran was about $500. When Pro 2s play for their money back, there are fewer Advanced players putting money in and less money to pay the PDGA their 10%.

Chuck's idea of letting Pro 2s play for merch or 50% of that in cash is fine. Since I am willing to buy merch from anyone, I've been doing that for all amateur divisions for the past six years. I don't give them cash at the awards. I just have a standing offer to buy back my own stuff at 50 cents on the dollar.

I remember a tournament where the winner in Rec wanted half what he won but in cash. I said, "I can't do that, but if you had some discs I wanted I could buy them from you for the same price I pay Discraft." He said, "What do you want?" I said, "If I was all out of Comets I'd want about eight of them." He said, "You already got eight of them." I said, "You have 80 in funny money." He said, "So?" I said, "So if you were to take all eight Comets, I'd be all out of them." He said, "But I don't want eight Comets."

Boy that kid was slow! :D

Chuck's Pro 2 concept would work fine. Everything we can do to blur the distinction between pro and am is fine by me, provided we maintain a way for me to raise enough money to pay off the PDGA and the park at the end of the process.

I remember a tournament where the winner in Rec wanted half what he won but in cash. I said, "I can't do that, but if you had some discs I wanted I could buy them from you for the same price I pay Discraft." He said, "What do you want?" I said, "If I was all out of Comets I'd want about eight of them." He said, "You already got eight of them." I said, "You have 80 in funny money." He said, "So?" I said, "So if you were to take all eight Comets, I'd be all out of them." He said, "But I don't want eight Comets."

Boy that kid was slow! :D




Duh! What an idiot. I wish I knew td's like that.......

Chuck's idea of letting Pro 2s play for merch or 50% of that in cash is fine. Since I am willing to buy merch from anyone, I've been doing that for all amateur divisions for the past six years. I don't give them cash at the awards. I just have a standing offer to buy back my own stuff at 50 cents on the dollar.



Intelligent TDs with intelligent ideas.........BRILLANT!!!!!.....mmmm, makes me want a Guiness!

Will there be a large group of PRO's signing up as AM's just to get a reduced price on there PDGA renewal membership and then just playing PRO all year?

Any TD who wants to offer Pro 2 already can within the structure of the current PDGA format. He just has to figure it out or ask me. So long as the PDGA is taking $500 to $700 out of every successful B-tier we run, I don't see myself doing anything to encourage more middle skilled to play for cash.

Did they say how much the fee will go up for Pros in 07? If it's a significant increase, I'm sure there will be some Pros reclassifying back to Am to save $20 or $30....what's to stop them?

50% fee increase for pros. From $50 to $75.

Will they keep birdie and ace club prices the same?

Just what we needed.....another oxymoron......professional Am's.

It's all a tempest in a teapot. Remember how people howled over "Pros Playing Am"? How many pros are playing am anyway? A couple of geezers and a couple of chicks? I personally have seen more am men play in the Pro Women's division this year :eek: than I've seen pros playing am. :D

Most of the pros who should go am are so out of the loop, they won't ever even know about this. They are, after all, the same guys who don't play tournaments because they can't compete against the pros and don't know they can play am.

They should just call it what it really is .
Sissy bagger division.
MOVE UP!

Post the news at the unsanctioned minis.

Serious question: Will pros with ratings below 955 still be allowed to play MA1 in 2007?

"The only thing missing which may be addressed for 2007 is to allow the Pros the option to accept their merch prizes as cash at 50% of the merch value. We did this at the Mid-Nationals to test the idea."

Sounds like half as much value ? :confused:

Serious question: Will pros with ratings below 955 still be allowed to play MA1 in 2007?


One of the earlier posts said that even KC or barry could drop back to Am. I think everybody is elidigble..

This is unbelievable news!

What if Kenny moved down and won an AM title, would he be a 13x or a 1x?

This is unbelievable news!

What if Kenny moved down and won an AM title, would he be a 13x or a 1x?



He'd be a BAGGER! :D

Serious question: Will pros with ratings below 955 still be allowed to play MA1 in 2007?


One of the earlier posts said that even KC or barry could drop back to Am. I think everybody is elidigble..


Please read the question before answering. That is not what I asked.

Post deleted by Alacrity

Serious question: Will pros with ratings below 955 still be allowed to play MA1 in 2007?



I hope so...I think it's a good rule.

Serious question: Will pros with ratings below 955 still be allowed to play MA1 in 2007?


One of the earlier posts said that even KC or barry could drop back to Am. I think everybody is elidigble..


Please read the question before answering. That is not what I asked.


excuse me , soooooo sorry ! Us ignorant texans aint much on readin' . But to further clarify, every pro regardless of rating will be able to play am. REGARDLESS OF RATING.After jan 1 of 2007 may be a different story. So i do believe my earlier statement encompasses the info you are looking for. You may want to re-read your e-mail from
the PDGA

Serious question: Will pros with ratings below 955 still be allowed to play MA1 in 2007?



good question. if Pros rated less than 955 can no longer play in Advanced in 2007 -- then probably more Pros might ask to have their status changed from Pro to Am. Which leads to my reasons for finding this new option odd:

i thought the goal was to get more Pros... :confused:

raising the Pro membership fee over that of Am.s and allowing Pros to drop back down without any petition requirement seems likely to increase Amateur participation and decrease Pro participation. that's why i voted that it's a bad idea. i am not much of a capitalist -- but if i was i would let my rating fall a little or just lobby and become an 'amateur" realizing that i could almost guarantee at least cashing in all the tournaments i entered and then sell the stuff on Ebay or on the course...

i would much prefer low entry fees and payouts unless sponsorship dollars can boost the $. i want to compete against Pros but i don't want to lose my shirt trying :D

Hello all, I think its a bad idea but since its being allowed I will take advantage of it and try and play am worlds and maybe am nationals. Not to mention the lower fee with the same benefits. SInce its close to home and i never played one I think it would be fun. I just hope i can get in!!
Now if they made it that only Pros can play in the pro division I might not do it because i enjoy playing with better players, but why not if I can play am worlds then go on and play Pro worlds. IF the PDGA made people EARN their pro card, instead of just buying pro status things would be alot different.

Us ignorant texans aint much on readin' .



Speak for yourself. The only thing i'm ignorant towards is my caloric intake.

Serious question: Will pros with ratings below 955 still be allowed to play MA1 in 2007?


One of the earlier posts said that even KC or barry could drop back to Am. I think everybody is elidigble..


Please read the question before answering. That is not what I asked.


excuse me , soooooo sorry ! Us ignorant texans aint much on readin' . But to further clarify, every pro regardless of rating will be able to play am. REGARDLESS OF RATING.After jan 1 of 2007 may be a different story. So i do believe my earlier statement encompasses the info you are looking for. You may want to re-read your e-mail from
the PDGA


You, my friend, are in need of reading comprehension instruction. That you are from Texas is something you brough up, not I.

I am not asking about who is eligible to be reclassified from pro to am before January 1. It is very clear that ALL CURRENT PROS are eligible to be re-classified as ams before Jan 1.

But I am not/did not ask about that.


The PDGA currently allows players who are currently classified as "Professional" but have a rating below 955 to play in the MA1 division at PDGA sanctioned events.

I am asking if players who are classified as "Professional" by the PDGA after January 1 2007 but have a rating below 955 will be allowed to play in the MA1 division at PDGA sanctioned events in 2007.

With the offer of amnesty to any and all pros who simply ask to be made am again, I can see why the provision for pros rated less than 955 to play MA1 might be rescinded.

That's what and why I am asking.

I am *NOT* asking who is eligible to be re-classified as an am.

IF the PDGA made people EARN their pro card, instead of just buying pro status things would be alot different.



I highly doubt the PDGA will ever make people earn their way into the pro division...maybe the next geveration of DG'ers will see a legitimate Pro Tour.

Rhett, I think the generality of the E-mail is intended to encompass all previous provisions. Honestly , I think it is a back door for pros to pay for an Am membership and save 20 bucks!

ding ding ding we have a winner SAVE $20 :D

if I was a ball golfer and was 10 behind on my handicap and could not compete at a national level with boys on tour and there was this smaller tour where I could compete I would be excited about the possibilities.




There are plenty of these tours in existence. They're called
AMATEUR TOURS.

I think for the long-term health of the sport we need to get the am's out of the pro division. Just because a player can shoot a -6 or -7 on a chuck 'n' putt course from the "pro" tees that are really blue tees doesn't mean they're a pro caliber player.

I'm got a 950 rating, which would roughly correspond to a 5 handicap in golf. (The average PGA touring golfer has a handicap of +2, or roughly a 1020 player rating.) I used to play in the Open division and donate cash every tournament, but then I finally wised up and went back to the right division for me, advanced. If I play well I've got a chance to win and if I play poorly I don't "cash".

The pressure on amateur players to move up to pro in order to increase pro purses is very short-sighted. We should not continue to dilute our pro ranks like this. As it is, our pro players are nowhere near as good as pro golfers. I've had the privilege to play disc with several world champs, caddy for some pga pros in practice rounds, and play golf with hooters and nationwide tour players. The best disc golfers in the world (IMO) have the comparable game to win on the mini-tour level and cash on the pga level, but they probably don't have the comparable game to win on the pga tour. They don't have nearly the comparable game to win a pro golf major.

This is not to say that they aren't capable of developing that game, but our courses and competition currently do not require it. I do think that we're moving in the right direction, though. I agree with Kenny's statements in the recent DGW interview that his game hasn't gone down, but the competition has come up. I still think the USDGC will prove to be the greatest catalyst for the evolution of competitive disc golf at the highest level.

Back to the disc/ball handicap comparison. I feel that my disc golf game and ball golf game are roughly comparable. My approximate disc golf handicap of 5 is much less than my ball golf handicap of 13. This difference is partly due to the lower average par of disc golf, but mostly due to the lower level of difficulty relative to par.

As more and more disc golf tournaments are played competitors playing from the appropriate tees (i.e. Open, Masters = gold, GM's, Pro Women, and advanced = blue, etc.) the big boys will further distance themselves from the advanced players and this will be evidenced by a greater spread in player ratings.

ding ding ding we have a winner SAVE $20 :D


did this backwoods Texan with reading comprehension issues just make a valid point. Wow I guess a blind squirrel does find that nut!

What if I move down and renew as an AM on Dec 1 and cash as a Pro on Dec 10th, am I still an AM on Jan 1?

What if I move down and renew as an AM on Dec 1 and cash as a Pro on Dec 10th, am I still an AM on Jan 1?



Good question, Kyle...anyone know the answer?

No policy changes for 2007 regarding Pros playing Am. Those players who remain as pros in 2007, and don't switch to amateur using the amnesty, will be able to play in Am divisions based on the same ratings breaks as we have in 2006. Pros under 955 can play Advanced, Pros over age 39 with ratings under 915 can play Adv Master, etc.

Rhett, I think the generality of the E-mail is intended to encompass all previous provisions.



THanks Chuck :p

What if I move down and renew as an AM on Dec 1 and cash as a Pro on Dec 10th, am I still an AM on Jan 1?



Kyle,
Too bad your not 50 next year...
I now have a chance to be a two-time two-timer. :D

What if I move down and renew as an AM on Dec 1 and cash as a Pro on Dec 10th, am I still an AM on Jan 1?



If you are a current pro member and you cash on Dec 10th, you would still become an Am on Jan 1 because that's when your renewal kicks in. However, if you are not a current member, renewing on Dec 1st activates your membership as an Am for the remainder of the year and all of 2007. So cashing would change your status to Pro level and you would lose the amnesty. That's how I see it, however the PDGA office might be more flexible and allow you to remain as an Am if you return your cash from that event.

What if I move down and renew as an AM on Dec 1 and cash as a Pro on Dec 10th, am I still an AM on Jan 1?



Kyle,
Too bad your not 50 next year...
I now have a chance to be a two-time two-timer. :D



Bagger :D

No policy changes for 2007 regarding Pros playing Am. Those players who remain as pros in 2007, and don't switch to amateur using the amnesty, will be able to play in Am divisions based on the same ratings breaks as we have in 2006. Pros under 955 can play Advanced, Pros over age 39 with ratings under 915 can play Adv Master, etc.



What about those who paid for 5 years in advance? If they want to switch to MA1, do they get a refund or time extension?
;)
:D

No policy changes for 2007 regarding Pros playing Am. Those players who remain as pros in 2007, and don't switch to amateur using the amnesty, will be able to play in Am divisions based on the same ratings breaks as we have in 2006. Pros under 955 can play Advanced, Pros over age 39 with ratings under 915 can play Adv Master, etc.

In that case any pro who is paying attention would renew as an am regardless of whether he intends to play as an am. He could take pro cash at his first event of the season, but defer paying the higher pro membership fee for a whole year.

Is this just a test to see if any pros are paying attention? :D

Bagger :D



Only in my dreams. ;) :D

I may not be right on this but I thought the PDGA sent a note to Ams who accept cash to pay the difference in membership? If they don't already, I suspect that will be invoked with this amnesty program.

Thanks for the answer, Chuck.

They never sent me anything when I moved up. I just figured that I would have to renew as a pro the following year.

What if I move down and renew as an AM on Dec 1 and cash as a Pro on Dec 10th, am I still an AM on Jan 1?



Kyle,
Too bad your not 50 next year...
I now have a chance to be a two-time two-timer. :D



Bagger :D



No, I am not sure he is..... :p

I may not be right on this but I thought the PDGA sent a note to Ams who accept cash to pay the difference in membership? If they don't already, I suspect that will be invoked with this amnesty program.


Like Brad, I never received such a request either, and I knew full well when I renewed for this year at the am rate that I was going Pro...that extra $15 afforded me an extra tourney last winter. :D

Besides, wouldn't it be rather petty to go after folks for a mere $15? The cost to chase that down (time/postage/phone/etc) probably eats up most of it anyway.

Seems to me the really s-m-r-t pro would not only re-up under the amnesty thing, but re-up at the current am rate for up to five years. That's a potential savings of close to $200. But in that case, it also might be more justified for the PDGA to ask for the difference once the player accepts cash again, at the very least to cover the full years remaining on the membership.

--Josh

Yes, the PDGA is once again encouraging everyone to be ams. :p

Why is there a difference in fees anyway?

I may not be right on this but I thought the PDGA sent a note to Ams who accept cash to pay the difference in membership? If they don't already, I suspect that will be invoked with this amnesty program.



Chuck, I don't think you're right on this one. Amateurs who turned pro by accepting cash typically were not charged the extra $15 for a pro card in season. I know the BoD discussed this at one particular summit, and I thought we decided not to charge the member the extra $15 if they stepped up during the year, but they would have to pay the pro fee when they renewed the following year. Basically, it was a one-time only thing, so anyone who stepped up to pro got a $15 reprieve if they did it in the middle of the season.

I have no idea if that policy is going to change. I'm no longer in the loop on such things.

And Bruce, just for accuracy's sake, it's only a 36.4% fee increase for pros ($55 to $75). :)

Chap

I've got to assume that the scenario was discussed at the Summit that if a golfer pre-pays for Amateur for the next 5 or 10 years but accepts cash in a Pro division, their classification will be changed to Pro the following year and they will be charged the difference, right?

I don't think the execution details were discussed, just the policy. That's usually left to staff to figure out so I would contact Lorrie at [email protected] for clarification.

why are we allowing more people to hide out in a protected division ????
It is my opinion there are more then enough people who can COMPETE with the best of the best and they should play against one another
YES it is my opinion that alot of "PROS" should be given the oppertunity to come back but there should be a cut off
JUST like there should be a cut off of player capability to play pro

<font color="green">BRING EM' ON!!!!! </font>

I'LL COULD WHIP KENNY WITH MY AVAIR AND WRAITH.....YEAH I SAID IT SOOOO WHAT :D:p :o:cool::D:D

AVAIR AND WRAITH



Must be a common misspelling. Even the Innova sign on the rack for Aviars in the USDGC store had it misspelled.

Now that's funny I thought they learned me good down here....I throw like I read... WITH ALOT OF COLORFULL PICTURES and not alot of words :D.....dang disc dyers...thanks ya'll /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

AVAIR AND WRAITH



Must be a common misspelling. Even the Innova sign on the rack for Aviars in the USDGC store had it misspelled.



I was wondering if I was the only one to notice that...

I intend to use this option, though I'm still going to pay the higher fee. I consider myself an amateur sportsmen at heart, now my official class will match.

I doubt if I will play amateur at any events. Mainly because amateur competition is not offerred at most PDGAs. Someday, maybe, it will be available and I'll be able to participate then.

I asked for a status change back in 1998 or so and got turned down. Again, it wasn't for any financial reasons, just because I believe in the ideals of amateur competition.

If I cash, I'll decline unless there is an option to donate it to the course for improvement.

If I renew I'll go one better than Nick and sign up as an Am, play as an Am and decline any plastic won. Thus taking the truly higher moral ground.

I'm gonna sign up as am just to pay a cheaper rate....seriously...this is dumb

Even Kenny or Barry can sign up under this new policy. Does anyone honestly think that thought would even cross their minds?

People appear to be blowing this far out of proportion and are taking it to some extremes. If you are a regularly cashing pro and you want to sign up as an Am just to save $25 I think you are still playing disc golf for the wrong reasons.

The intent of this was to offer a slight break to anyone that considers themselves a 'bubble' player. Maybe you have a 960 rating but have only cashed twice in the three years you've been a pro. Maybe you have a 935 rating and you signed up last year as a pro and have regreted it ever since. That is the real intent of this.

Personally I think it would be silly for a person that typically cashes to go through the hassle of signing up as an Am just to save a few bucks. Then their card will be Am and it will likely increase paperwork and stat keeping. Seriously people - it's $25. If you're a pro act like one and just sign up were you belong. If you're truly questionable with your skill set go ahead and sign up as an Am. I like that the PDGA recognized there would be a small back lash for increased fees and they came up with this creative (one time) solution. It's too bad they are getting bashed for trying to accomodate people. Darned if you do - darned if you don't.

Its amazing how many people want to see right through the true INTENT of this decision just so they can save a few bucks and create even MORE work for the organization that is already understaffed, under paid, and under appreciated. People already complain that the PDGA doesn't respond to their phone calls and e-mails instantly. Now, everything will get bogged down even more because in order to save a few bucks people un-necessarily reclassified themselves. Give me a break.

How mad would you be if you called into the headquarters and got this, "Oh, sorry PDGA number X, you'll have to wait on hold for just 20 more minutes. Now that we are done with the first NT of the year we have to go through and re-classify Barry Schultz and 100 other players back to pro status. I hope you don't mind waiting for that and then we'll address whatever concern you have."

I agree - I was only joking about signing up as an am. I have to much respect for the game to do that.

We should have a one-time amnesty allowing amateurs to sign up as juniors so amateurs can avoid the fee increase too! ;)

agree 100% :D/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

What will they come up with next, they want to get rid of the 2 meter rule and everyone knows that's a mistake. So now they want to get weak pros to give it up and return to their roots(AM WORLD). I guess I understand really, if you don't have game your just throwing your dough into the pot. Well, GET'R DONE then, and get back into the game in comfort, with beer in hand.

118 Votes and pretty close to 50/50...

margin of error +/-5 :D

moving up next year for some of the MA1's will be fun...if everyone did it...MPO would be the biggest division in TX for sure as MA1 is now...

heck..some of us will even cash...

Get those renewals in Pro....errr...AM players

this is sweet, i'm movin to am!! soon to be 2x mm1 champ! want me to sign your disc? :D

I may not be right on this but I thought the PDGA sent a note to Ams who accept cash to pay the difference in membership? If they don't already, I suspect that will be invoked with this amnesty program.

there was no discussion of this when it was passed.

Blindman wrote in another thread:


Great response Chuck. But I will ask my question one more time for you and Terry. Fore evry action there is a reaction the BOD voted amnesty I have told you over a half dozen players or more that chose not not to play because of your ruling. Please tell me the benifits of your ruling in my senior am division?

Did Blindman really mean that he knows half a dozen people who refused to play at Am Worlds just because of one person who would be playing in their division?? That sure is 6 people with a bad case of cutting off their nose to spite their face. Surely they aren't *afraid* of competing with Pete May! (And we're talking Am Worlds, so you couldn't even say that they didn't want to be donators!!)

Or perhaps Blindman meant that he knows 6 people in that division who have completely left the PDGA and PDGA tournament play on the ground of the principle that they don't approve of amnesty for anyone who was previously a pro ???

There are very good reasons for "am-nesty" -- this argument has many sides, but the biggest reason is that you are not able or willing to compete at the higher level. With the way our sport is structured today, it is reasonable to allow someone to move back to the Am division.

Yeah there are good reasons for the amnesty. Pete May using it to hide from Shive and try to get a title is not one of them.

Unlike you, Matt, I don't have a pipeline into Pete May's brain, so I can't tell you why he's done what he's done. But I can look at the facts about how competitive he's been this year and draw a few conclusions. Yeah Matt, remind me when I decide I want another Worlds title that the sure-fire way to "get that title" is to change divisions, not compete for months on end, then in the first round at Worlds, set a truly blistering pace more than 100 points below my last rating.

Yeah, Pete's probably just sandbagging to give a false sense of security to those poor deluded competitors who actually were able to force themselves to play in that division in spite of of the prospect of actually playing against Pete.

Riiiight.

Quit bashing Pete.

Bash me instead. I might some day wish to change divisions because I don't feel that I'm still able to compete as a pro and I'm not willing or able to do anything to improve the situation. I'm not ready to concede that yet, but that day could arrive, and I sure hope that I'll have the opportunity to go back to "am" regardless of any of the statistical success that I amassed in the past.

It wouldn't be such a big deal if he wouldn't have taken 2nd (almost won) the same division the year before. Another thing that bugs me is that he plyed pro up until the very end of 06' and did pretty well but I'm sure he had already turned in his amnesty forms and new that he would be AM in just a few days.

You shouldn't be able to take 2nd at Pro Words (and $1200) and then play Am Worlds the following year. Majors should have been excluded as part of the amnesty.

so i have a question i am an am and i played in my first open tournament last weekend i was 1 spot out of cash...now if i had cashed and chose to take the cash would i now be totally out of ma1 or is that just the worlds events??? either way when i do cash im moving up but that was one of the questions that came up at the tourney??? can i get any help on this i have heard several different things and i just want to know for sure!!!!

thanks

I've posted this a dozen times in the past...

I halfway like the under 955 rule and the amnesty rule. I think that it does keep some people in the sport that may not stick around in it.

However, this black and white stuff has got to go. There needs to be standards such as "have not cashed in X number or years" or "could have never placed in the world championships" or something like that.

The fact that Ken Climo could technically compete in the am worlds this year boggles my mind.

I've posted this a dozen times in the past...

I halfway like the under 955 rule and the amnesty rule. I think that it does keep some people in the sport that may not stick around in it.

However, this black and white stuff has got to go. There needs to be standards such as "have not cashed in X number or years" or "could have never placed in the world championships" or something like that.

The fact that Ken Climo could technically compete in the am worlds this year boggles my mind.



I agree with big head. :D

abcd, MTL - just how many years after how high a placement and how much $$ won would one be permitted to compete at a major as an Am? 2 years, 5 years, 10 years?? Or, how sick/permanently disabled/just-a-bit injured/old would you have to be to "prove" you can't compete any more as a pro, and would you need a doctor's note?

Its a general rule, with rules, that you can't really make them specific enough to cover all possible circumstances. (You realize, of course, that if you had a rule of say, 2 years, all Kenny would have to do is wait that long before competing at Am Worlds. If he wanted to do so ... ) In other words, the rule related to the number of years doesn't make the prospect of that happening any less silly.

Plus, you guys don't seem to realize this, but once you've won the big banana, that Am title just isn't going to mean too much no matter how competitive your nature is. If you've ever even been *close* to winning it, you don't step down to try to win in a lower division.

You step down to have more fun because you've accepted that you'd rather have more fun than be stubborn and proud and DFL over and over again. In fact, I'd bet that most everyone who did take the amnesty did so to improve the fun factor .

Players that are out there for fun aren't usually at the World Championships.

Players that are out there for fun aren't usually at the World Championships.




I'd say there are more there for fun and the experience than winning considering that 60% of them don't cash and are willing to spend $500-$1500 or more to go to the event, especially from New Zealand and Japan.

You shouldn't be able to take 2nd at Pro Words (and $1200) and then play Am Worlds the following year. Majors should have been excluded as part of the amnesty.



ding ding ding

They came to compete and see how they rank against the best competition. . While they may not have any expectations of wining, thats whay they came.

Guys that are playing for the fun of it, stay close to home and play local or regional events that don't require a long trip or lots of $$$$.

and guys playing for fun don't cash in Pro one year and travel to Am Wolrds the next.

Believe it!

In fact, I'd bet that most everyone who did take the amnesty did so to improve the fun factor .


I did it to save ceesh. Plus I couldn't be Bapster anymore. Wow I had no idea i could've played AM worlds this year not that I ever would play AM again

worlds for me is a vacation. sure, I want to play my best and compete and cash, but in the end, my attitude is always at its best at worlds.

worlds for me is a vacation. sure, I want to play my best and compete and cash, but in the end, my attitude is always at its best at worlds.



Great way to think Robert. I'm the same way whether i'm at the USDGC, Players Cup, or a b-tier down the road. It's a vacation first and foremost. :cool:

You shouldn't be able to take 2nd at Pro Words (and $1200) and then play Am Worlds the following year. Majors should have been excluded as part of the amnesty.



ding ding ding

TTru
amnesty is in general a good concept but those taking it should be excluded from majors.

Players that are out there for fun aren't usually at the World Championships.



Why do people keep posting that people in age protected divisions (myself included) play there because they don't want the pressure or whatever of playing in the unrestricted division (pro or am)? So people at worlds can't be there for fun? Heck, I PLAY DISC GOLF because it's fun. It sure ain't for the cash and glory.

Players that are out there for fun aren't usually at the World Championships.



Why do people keep posting that people in age protected divisions (myself included) play there because they don't want the pressure or whatever of playing in the unrestricted division (pro or am)? So people at worlds can't be there for fun? Heck, I PLAY DISC GOLF because it's fun. It sure ain't for the cash and glory.



Agreed! Heck worlds is one of the most fun events just because everyone is there!

That statement has been taken way out of context.

Granted people go to Worlds and a lot of other events becuse its fun.

People that play for fun aren't worried about or try to travel all over for the competition. They play close to home and thats about it.

Some one that tells you they are moving down to am because they want to have fun again, usually don't immediately take off for a world championship.

"You shouldn't be able to take 2nd at Pro Words (and $1200) and then play Am Worlds the following year. Majors should have been excluded as part of the amnesty. "

if i had to do it over, i'd either vote no to amnesty or keep amnestees out of majors. in retrospect, trying to appease a few pros because we were afraid of a dues increase was silly.

There was a proposal on the table to set max ratings for who could get amnesty. However, when they realized it would require some research to properly pick the numbers for every pro division, men and women, the blanket amnesty was voted in instead.

There was a proposal on the table to set max ratings for who could get amnesty. However, when they realized it would require some research to properly pick the numbers for every pro division, men and women, the blanket amnesty was voted in instead.



I wonder what Pete voted for? I bet he didn't want to set a ratings cap. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

As I recall, this proposal was near the end of a long summit session. Pete had asked me if I could provide suggested ratings breaks. Had I been asked to do so formally, I suspect that he likely would not have gotten amnesty so he wasn't against that possible version of the proposal. But I think the feeling by the Board in general was that even though there might have been more precision doing the breaks, that a simple amnesty for everyone was the way to go to keep the message simple. Every year, I believe something like 15-20 players request to return to Am from Pro. With amnesty, it would take a load off Gentry reviewing individual requests for a one shot switch back, which is essentially what amnesty should be, without several clauses to qualify for it.

Pete May was a decision maker in the amnesty process. Then he goes and takes full advantage of the amnesty clause. He has as much right as any one else does to do this.

But, he has an obligation as BOD member to represent our sport in the best possible way. A leader shouldn't make a personal decision that would shed negative light on our sport. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Even with the best of intentions and special circumstances, this just looks bad.

I am trying to pay my bills with this lucrative disc golf career but I am having trouble making ends meet. Tongue firmly planted in cheek.

just a quick question.....i want to play ADV MASTER in a tournament but my rating is 908,it said on the flyer that ADV MASTER has to have a rating of 915 or greater...so do i have to play int/ams or can i play ADV MASTER

Pro masters have to have a rating UNDER 915 to play Advanced Master. There is no rating cap for amateur players entering Adv Master, just an age minimum.

I am pretty sure that Pete went to Am worlds for a fun Dgolf vacation...I doubt he really went to Win a Title...Regardless of my belief, as to WHY he went, I think its wrong that he was allowed to compete, not wrong that he aTTend am worlds... Amnesty is fine, I dont hate it, however, I agree that majors should be excluded for the first fiscal year of the decision...A player as good as Pete, in his pro division, is basically stealing another ams chance at glory...Basically, I believe that if Pete had waited at least till next Am worlds to compete, there wouldn't be any controvesy at all. I wonder what the rules in Ping Pong are(were) regarding this step down from 'pro' status.

But, he has an obligation as BOD member to represent our sport in the best possible way. A leader shouldn't make a personal decision that would shed negative light on our sport.



You are making a lot of leaps here, most of which are not warranted. For one, it is of your opinion that this was not good for the sport. Others may feel different. Second, you are making the point that ths sheds a negative light on the sport, which is a huge stretch as no one outside of the sport would even know what 'amnesty' is. But thirdly and worse of all, you make the leap that the BOD member did it because of personal benefit. You have no idea of the motivations of this person or the other BOD members who voted for the change, and thus have no right to make such an accusation.

Shame on all who are taking this 'logic'. :mad:

A member of the Professional Disc Golf Association board of directors voted for a rule change which would allow them to compete in a tournament in which they would not have otherwise been able to play at? Seems like a conflict of interest to me.

good point...but, I just dont see the personal gain in doing it, besides having a good ol' time at worlds...either one.