I recently decided to weigh the discs in my bag. I carry 6 molds of discs with a total of 16 discs. I had two Star wraiths that were marked @ 174 that actually weighed 177.4 and 177.8. One of the monsters I have thrown for 2+ years weighs 178.2 and and when all were weighed there were only 6 discs (all marked 171 and below) that were under the 175g weight requirements.
My question is this, could you be penalized for throwing an overweight disc if you had never weighed them and had no idea that the discs were over?

I would think not, but you would have to take them out of your bag once you knew they were overweight.

What are you saying about Innova's quality control?

No, seriously....I've found "over the legal limit" discs from ALL of the manufacturers. I guess it's tough for them to just throw them away. Can't they just melt them and run them again?

or put them on a no CE diet :D

My question is this, could you be penalized for throwing an overweight disc if you had never weighed them and had no idea that the discs were over?



My question is unless you tell people (like you just did), how is anyone going to know that your disc is heavier than the legal limit?

IMO, if the disc manufacturer is going to stamp the disc saying it'sPDGA approved and then put a weight on it, it's good to go. They are the ones who should be respnsible for weighing the discs properly if they are going to market them as PDGA approved. I just assume my discs weigh what they say they do. Innova, Discraft, etc. must have pretty decent scales if they are weighing every single disc that is produced (if they aren't weighing all of them, maybe thats the problem).

I would guess that the reason some of the discs are weighing more than regulation is because your scale might be off and/or the people at Innova/Discaft/etc. don't want to remold the discs and just mark them with 177+/180/175/etc. cause 99% of the people buying them don't own a scale and/or care to weigh them.

So, until someone brings a scale to a tournament, I think you are safe to play with whatever PDGA approved discs you want..........even if your scale says they weigh more than the legal limit, who is to say your scale is accurate or not? This is kinda along the same lines as Drug Testing, it's so immaterial compared to the cost of making sure everyone complies with the regulation/rule that it far outweighs the benefits.

However, I played lacrosse in high school and in larcosse there are certain limitations on the stick (it can't be too short, too narrow, etc.). While there is no mandaory stick check for every player in the game, the referees usually look at a few of the players sticks at half-time and make sure they are LEGAL. I guess we could do something like this in Disc Golf if over-weighted discs are really an issue but then we are singleing out certain individuals and probably just creating a huge mess.

yes triple beam for weighing discs between hole # 9 and # 10 at all tournies. :D

We could do it like ice hockey. They have a rule about the max allowable curve in the blade of their sticks. There is a template at every game that the refs can use to measure the sticks.

The only time this is called is if one team badly needs a penalty called on the opposing team (one player going to the penalty box for 2 minutes), they will ask the ref's to check the suspect player's stick. If illegal, the offending player sits, if legal, then a player from the accusing team goes to the penalty box for two minutes and they skate a man down.

In DG we could have that same thing. Pick a disc to weigh and measure (8.3g/cm of outside diameter). If it is over the limit, the offender is stroked 2 strokes. If it is legal, the accuser is stroked 2 strokes.

Jewelry scales (+/- 0.1g accuracy) are $30 and calibration weights are $2-10.

After typing this all in, I think it is a very dumb idea. If the disc is stamped and marked as a legal disc it should be legal.

After typing this all in, I think it is a very dumb idea. If the disc is stamped and marked as a legal disc it should be legal.



Exactly

...and and when all were weighed there were only 6 discs (all marked 171 and below) that were under the 175g weight requirements.

Did you find that every disc was heavier than marked? Were they all off about the same amount from the marked weight? If so, Will probably has a point about the accuracy of the scale; that type of systematic error would make me suspect the scale first:

So, until someone brings a scale to a tournament, I think you are safe to play with whatever PDGA approved discs you want..........even if your scale says they weigh more than the legal limit, who is to say your scale is accurate or not?

At one point I wondered the same thing about the weight of my discs. I'm a science teacher, so I borrowed one of my school's electronic balances and calibrated it myself. After about 20-25 discs, I still had not found one that was more then +/-0.4g from the marked mass (i.e. it would have rounded to the marked value). I mostly checked Discraft Z-plastic since that is primarily what I throw, but I also checked a Innova CFR Wraith and a few Gateway drivers as well. Anybody else out there as big a nerd as me? What did you find?

nanook

I did find that most of the discs were about 2- 3 grams over what they said. I'm no science teacher but was using good ohaus digital scales with a 50 g calibration weight. Just for good measure I put 25 US nickels with the cal weight and it came 175.0 g so the I know the scales are correct.

I didn't just weigh Innova discs, I also had an over weight Xtreme (the only Discraft I had in my bag)

I stil say that diet and excercise are the best solutions for overweight disc's. None of these fad diets are going to get them back to regulation. :D

I have weighed my discs. I have never found one to be off. I don't throw max weight discs, but none were off by more than half a gram.

I personally wouldn't use nickels for scale calibration unless they were all bright and shiney new. I had a question on a statistics final about old coins. Basically, the older the coin, the less it weighs. :)

This is the second or third most repeated thread on this board. About once a month someone weighs their discs and discovers they are living in sin.

Without going through every point and counter point, the short of it is disc weight is limited due to safety. As long as the manufactures are aiming for the correct weight I'm guessing no one cares. I guess this because the PDGA focuses on some items and skips others. This is one that never gets mentioned.

On the other hand, I hear they're really down on nude golfing...

On the other hand, I hear they're really down on nude golfing...



Ask the Live Oak Disc Golf Alliance about that one... :o
Did I just post that??????????? Provocative much?????? :D

I've weighed every disc in my bag, on multiple scales. I have one of the cheap Taylor 'Lithium' Scales and noticed it was always weighing high. It's a kitchen scale and I wasn't getting the disc PERFECTLY centered on it. When it was skewed, it weighed heavier.

On the other hand, I hear they're really down on nude golfing...



Ask the Live Oak Disc Golf Alliance about that one... :o
Did I just post that??????????? Provocative much?????? :D



Yeah, well, that's because you don't have mosquitos out there. Here in Houston, that's an invitation to a swollen backside. :D On the other hand, maybe I need to start making more trips out to Live Oak... :o

Just another example of how the rules in this sport get ignored.

Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a #$*&$! about the rules? Mark it zero!

Just another example of how the rules in this sport get ignored.

Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a #$*&$! about the rules? Mark it zero!



Ignored by whom ?

I don't have a calibrated scale.
I trust the manufacturers to provide a legal product.
I don't think this is an example of rules being ignored by the players.

I have a champion orc that weighs 180 grams...I use it as a practice disc.

I have a champion orc that weighs 180 grams...I use it as a practice disc.



I want one!

It's a very good headwind disc...if it's a windy round at a sanctioned tourney I would love to break it out but that would be cheating :o

:mad: I know, but it could be a very useful disc!!!!!!!

Ignored by whom ?


Players
PDGA
Disc Manufacturers



I trust the manufacturers to provide a legal product.


We've proven this isn't the case. It's simply a fact being ignored.

I've seen it proved on this thread that the discs are within .5g of advertised weight also.

Which truth do I choose to believe ?

It's simple enough, what are the resources available? What rules, if ignored will have the greatest impact, or in another way, what rules do you absolutely have to enforce, and what is essential for the growth of the sport.

One has to be realistic, even the PGA knows that some players are fudging on the limitations placed on drivers. If you're looking for perfection you probably won't find it in any sport, and there will be even less on those calls that are subjective. I think "darn it" is swearing and he should get a courtesy violation. "Come on, you've got to be kidding."

On the other hand, if you can prove that someone really gets an advantage from the 1 to 2 grams over, then I'll avidly support your position. But, as I've pointed out before, I've yet to hear a top level player comment on this issue, that means to them there is no advantage or difference, therefore the rule serves its pupose, it keeps the weight of discs down to enhance safety...

BTW - I'm fairly "anal" and I weigh all my discs, I don't ever play with an overweight disc but that is my personality. If I found someone on my card using one I'd wink, call them a bloody cheating bagger, then I'd take my drive.

It's simple enough, what are the resources available? What rules, if ignored will have the greatest impact, or in another way, what rules do you absolutely have to enforce, and what is essential for the growth of the sport.

One has to be realistic, even the PGA knows that some players are fudging on the limitations placed on drivers. If you're looking for perfection you probably won't find it in any sport, and there will be even less on those calls that are subjective. I think "darn it" is swearing and he should get a courtesy violation. "Come on, you've got to be kidding."

On the other hand, if you can prove that someone really gets an advantage from the 1 to 2 grams over, then I'll avidly support your position. But, as I've pointed out before, I've yet to hear a top level player comment on this issue, that means to them there is no advantage or difference, therefore the rule serves its pupose, it keeps the weight of discs down to enhance safety...




I've tried very hard to help change and enforce a weight rule for disc golf, Dave D and I traded emails for 3 months and Jim Kenner even chimed in here and there.

I for one would like to see a tolorance as Urethane discs are Hygroscopic and absorb moisture even after being molded.
This type polymer can gain .02% by weight whether its in the raw materials or in a molded part.
.02% of 175 Grams is 3.5grams.
If you mold a completely dried material ( dessicant driers) and weighed it right out of the machine at 175 it could rise to 178 sitting around on a day with 90% humidity.
Take non dried material and mold one that weighs 175 and take it to the dry desert and it could rop by 3 grams.
If anybody doubts this call basf, Dow, dupont or any other Urethane manufacturer and ask them if this is possible!

The only realy solution would be to give a .02% tolerance and STRICLTY enforce the rule.

As for it being a safety reason ,I only have to pose 1 question:
Is a 200 gram soft Putter more dangerous than a 165 gram sharp edged high speed driver with flashing on it?

Of course the answer is no.

If safety was a real concern for the pdga than THEY/WE should spend more time and money making sure courses that are used for pdga events are evaluated for safety.
In fact there should be a full time position hired just to travel around "evelauting existing courses for safety and make safety recomendations to the parks departments"
The problem is it might slow down the development of a disc golf course and raise eyebrows to whether or not disc golf courses are safe in public parks.
It's a double edged sword, but something that needs to be addrees now while there are only 2500 course and not 25,000!!!!!!!

Are you sure about your numbers?

.02% is actually .0002, which multiplied by 175 gm equals .035 gm's!

If you mean 2% then 2% of 175 gm is 3.5 gm's! and that is a lot of moisture to absorb into a disc.

Being ignorant to what you are throwing is one way to claim you're playing by the rules. Even if you're not.

What rules, if ignored will have the greatest impact, or in another way, what rules do you absolutely have to enforce, and what is essential for the growth of the sport.



Any rules violation that is blatant enough for me to understand, should be enforced. Fott faults are a big one. Disc weight is another. It is a fact that the heavier a disc, the more controllable the disc is for big arms...that is, the top level player. Why should they get an additional advantage over the field?


One has to be realistic, even the PGA knows that some players are fudging on the limitations placed on drivers.
On the other hand, if you can prove that someone really gets an advantage from the 1 to 2 grams over, then I'll avidly support your position. But, as I've pointed out before, I've yet to hear a top level player comment on this issue, that means to them there is no advantage or difference, therefore the rule serves its pupose, it keeps the weight of discs down to enhance safety...



But in the PGA I can have Tiger's driver put through the tests. Try and get that done at a PDGA event. A major even. Good luck.

Top level players don't come on here. I will tell what I have heard one top player tell me..."i don't want to know what my discs weigh" again, ignorance is the best defense.

The manufacturers can't control every disc. The players who use them need to be held accountable (I know, not a popular term)...if the player is held accountable, the vendors will have alot of overweight plastic sitting around.

Are you sure about your numbers?

.02% is actually .0002, which multiplied by 175 gm equals .035 gm's!

If you mean 2% then 2% of 175 gm is 3.5 gm's! and that is a lot of moisture to absorb into a disc.



I guess I meant 2% I might have to check the spec sheet to see if it is .02 or 2%

I'm all for personal responsibility however, most players don't have an accurate balance to weigh disc on.

The manufacturers do. There is a weight on every disc I have, so they are being weighed at the factory. To say that the maker can't be responsible for every disc is silly.

To say that a PDGA tournament player can't be responsible for every disc in his bag is silly.

Then have a scale that tournament central for every event.

If you dye a max weight disc will it cause the disc to weigh more to a significant amount? Also is there any tolerance for error in a disc weight in the rules, like a 1% error. I highly doubt that a hard and fast rule could be applied here without some room for error!

Are you sure about your numbers?

.02% is actually .0002, which multiplied by 175 gm equals .035 gm's!

If you mean 2% then 2% of 175 gm is 3.5 gm's! and that is a lot of moisture to absorb into a disc.



I guess I meant 2% I might have to check the spec sheet to see if it is .02 or 2%



.02% sounds much more realistic to me. I live in FL and it is very humid. I weigh my discs all the time, bringing them in and out of the humidity and air conditioning and they never show more than a gram difference. I have even weighed discs right after being pulled out of the water and noticed that they weigh a gram less after drying out for a few days, but never 3.5 g. On that same note I think that Discraft's original elite x plastic absorbed more water than any other plastic. If soaked in water and frozen, the disc's dome would actually expand 1/2"-1" out, and flatten back out when thawed. In 3 winters of DG experience in MI, I never saw any other plastic show that property.

To say that a PDGA tournament player can't be responsible for every disc in his bag is silly.



Exactly.

To say that a PDGA tournament player can't be responsible for every disc in his bag is silly.



Exactly.


I'd love to be there the day that a Rec player, with one disc his buddy gave him to get him interested in the sport, get's DQ'ed from his 1st tourney when they find out his disc is overweight.
Manufacturers should be held accountable for discs. It's not like people are taping weights to their discs.
If you want player's to be responsible for the proper weights of their discs, require a scale at EVERY PDGA event at the registration/sign-in table.

Testing of drivers: actually, you're wrong, it doesn't happen, Tiger even complained about it, fairly vociferously. The rule is there but un-enforced.

I'll lay you odds you're less complaint with the rules than you think you are. I've seen it with the rules nazis. It�s easy enough to get on the MB and talk about rules obeyance, but it�s a lot harder to accomplish on the playing field, even for yourself. I know you are going to come back and tell me that you carefully obey every rule. I support that, but my on the field experience is very different. People don�t cheat, they just aren�t as careful as they could be or would be in a perfect world. Should this change? Maybe, but then again, linemen shouldn�t be allowed to hold, and NBA stars shouldn�t be allowed to travel. The question becomes what is the overall spirit. Is the player�s intent to gain an advantage? If you can find me a player that purposefully seeks out high weight discs to gain an advantage, I�d strongly support any move to have this rule better enforced than it currently is.

I disagree with you on weight and disc controllability over the range we're discussing. I've heard it repeated plenty but I've never seen it play out in real life. Yes, over the 20 grams difference between a 150 class and a 175 gram disc there are differences but those don't play out the same over a 1 or 2 gram difference. And, as I said above, I've yet to hear a serious Pro comment on this issue. You know if there were a real advantage, guys like Ken and Barry would be raising it as a problem, the same way that Tiger Woods did when he felt players were gaining an advantage from using illegal clubs.

Surely you jest about players taking accountability. While many players can afford to toss an illegal disc, there are many who can't and won't.

There is a way to fix the problem, get a scale and carry it to tournaments. Challenge the top Pros to weigh their discs, if they refuse go to the TD. It won't be fun, but it will be effective.

There is a way to fix the problem, get a scale and carry it to tournaments. Challenge the top Pros to weigh their discs, if they refuse go to the TD. It won't be fun, but it will be effective.



I dont think that will fix anything..............who is to say that the scale you bring to tournaments is accurate?

I think we should just go by what the disc says on the bottom, leave it to the disc manufacturers to weigh them.

Another thing to consider, the technical specifications also give a diameter. If the discs can gain at least 1 g of water weight I am willing to bet they fall outside of the diameter used for determining acceptance. The rules read that the the discs must meet the technical specs. So if the diameter varies, which will occur as the discs gain weight, shrink in the cold, expand in the heat, then they may be outside of spec for size as well. If the diamter varies, the flight characteristic will as well. That is simple aerodynamics. ;)

Testing of drivers: actually, you're wrong, it doesn't happen, Tiger even complained about it, fairly vociferously. The rule is there but un-enforced.



I didn't think I was wrong...http://www.scratch-golfer.com/GolfDriverTestingStirsUpQuestions.htm



I'll lay you odds you're less complaint with the rules than you think you are. I've seen it with the rules nazis. It�s easy enough to get on the MB and talk about rules obeyance, but it�s a lot harder to accomplish on the playing field, even for yourself. I know you are going to come back and tell me that you carefully obey every rule. I support that, but my on the field experience is very different.



I will say I work to follow every rule to the best of my knowledge. Therefore, everyone else should as well. Why, if I have to be concious of my footing on a runup, shouln't everyone else? Same question for disc compliance.



People don�t cheat, they just aren�t as careful as they could be or would be in a perfect world. Should this change? Maybe, but then again, linemen shouldn�t be allowed to hold, and NBA stars shouldn�t be allowed to travel. The question becomes what is the overall spirit. Is the player�s intent to gain an advantage?



You're wrong. People do cheat, and sometimes, blatantly. If they are ignorant to the rule, should I not penalize them for breaking that branch in front of them? No.



If you can find me a player that purposefully seeks out high weight discs to gain an advantage, I�d strongly support any move to have this rule better enforced than it currently is.




I know a guy (thro2nv) who has found that weighing and marking "actual" weight on discs is giving him an advantage on ebay. He sells all his overweight discs. Obviously players are liking his 177.8 wraith vs. joe schmo's 175 (factory marked) wraith.



I disagree with you on weight and disc controllability over the range we're discussing. I've heard it repeated plenty but I've never seen it play out in real life. Yes, over the 20 grams difference between a 150 class and a 175 gram disc there are differences but those don't play out the same over a 1 or 2 gram difference. And, as I said above, I've yet to hear a serious Pro comment on this issue. You know if there were a real advantage, guys like Ken and Barry would be raising it as a problem, the same way that Tiger Woods did when he felt players were gaining an advantage from using illegal clubs.



1-2 grams isn't a huge difference. But as the rules ready now, there isn't a +/- tolerance. A disc can go out of the factory at ANY weight, as long as they mark it 175, it's ok. That doesn't seem right. If they throw out a 185 wraith, and call it 175, that's an advantage. Especially in a head wind.




Surely you jest about players taking accountability. While many players can afford to toss an illegal disc, there are many who can't and won't.

There is a way to fix the problem, get a scale and carry it to tournaments. Challenge the top Pros to weigh their discs, if they refuse go to the TD. It won't be fun, but it will be effective.



I'm not a huge rule nazi. I do however like an even playing field. I'm not a stellar athlete...I need the playing field to be level. I'm sick of seeing factory players privy to discs I can't get. First example, the max. I go to practice USDGC and that's what people are throwing...where can I get one? You can't, not on the east coast...WTF? Oh, just wait for your player pack...WTF? that's great the night before I can try it out. LAME.

Is "spirit of the game" written in the rule book?

I trust the manufacturers to provide a legal product.




You must also trust your government. :D

and your significant other :D/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

What are you saying about Innova's quality control?

No, seriously....I've found "over the legal limit" discs from ALL of the manufacturers. I guess it's tough for them to just throw them away. Can't they just melt them and run them again?

It's not quality control. It's consumer demand. The players want max weight discs. Any effort to make max weight discs is also going to make overweight discs. If the PDGA were to enforce the rule, max weight discs would cost twice as much as ordinary weight discs.

I have the scale handy and I have a bunch of max weight plastic on hand. I'll do a little weigh in at lunch time.

it seems to me skill trumps the supposed advantage of throwing a slightly overweight disc. i've never weighed a disc, but given what i've read it isn't hard to find them even for those of us without any special access to plastic...

if you look at the top 10 of the Japan Open ( see here (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5506) ) the regulars are still the ones at the top so i don't buy into the idea that overweight discs might garner a big advantage. i think Japan even weighs all the discs (?)

it seems to me skill trumps the supposed advantage of throwing a slightly overweight disc. i've never weighed a disc, but given what i've read it isn't hard to find them even for those of us without any special access to plastic...

if you look at the top 10 of the Japan Open ( see here (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5506) ) the regulars are still the ones at the top so i don't buy into the idea that overweight discs might garner a big advantage. i think Japan even weighs all the discs (?)



What if all those guys are using overweight discs? Makes sense you don't hear from them about cracking down. They probably aren't using overweight discs, but they could...and do they really need more of an advantage?

I weighed ten randomly selected Star discs each marked 175 grams. Because my cheap scale is accurate +/- 1 gram, I weighed all ten together. They weighed in at 1778 grams.

Then I became curious whether dying the disc might make it heavier so I weighed five dyed 175s versus five undyed. They weighed the same.

I'm not weighing them individually. I don't want that responsibility. :D

.02% of 175 grams is 35 milligrams, not 3.5 grams. If a disc was 175 grams and it took on 35 milligrams of water, it would be 175.035 grams.

I weighed ten randomly selected Star discs each marked 175 grams. Because my cheap scale is accurate +/- 1 gram, I weighed all ten together. They weighed in at 1778 grams.

Then I became curious whether dying the disc might make it heavier so I weighed five dyed 175s versus five undyed. They weighed the same.

I'm not weighing them individually. I don't want that responsibility. :D



will you do a random sample of 10 max weight ESP plastic too?

better yet -- do 1000 samples of 10 Champion and 1000 samples of 10 Z discs next :D

I don't have ten max weight ESP discs handy. I'm dying Star plastic this week. Send me a PM reminder next week on Friday and I'll weigh some ESP.

However, I did have ten 174 Star discs handy. [My last order was a heavy order.] They were only 18 grams overweight, collectively, suggesting that the really overweight discs get marked 175 and the merely chubby discs get marked 174. :D

kind of ironic you have Innova handy and not Discraft... aren't you in Michigan? :eek:

http://www.scratch-golfer.com/GolfDriverTestingStirsUpQuestions.htm



Why isn't spirt of the game in our rules? It works so well in ultimate.

http://www4.upa.org/ultimate/sotg/sotg.shtml

I don't have ten max weight ESP discs handy. I'm dying Star plastic this week. Send me a PM reminder next week on Friday and I'll weigh some ESP.

However, I did have ten 174 Star discs handy. [My last order was a heavy order.] They were only 18 grams overweight, collectively, suggesting that the really overweight discs get marked 175 and the merely chubby discs get marked 174. :D



your sample sizes don't exactly make for statistically significant results, but could that average 1.8g undermarked average be due to your scale, their scale, or maybe the added weight of the sharpie? or maybe those discs suck up extar air molecules after they leave the warehouse?

1.8 grams is 1% of 174g. +/- 1% doesn't seem too bad to me. do you think we could start an Ebay store of "RARE" wrongly marked, overweight discs? :D

I went and looked for max weight ESP but I'm out. The ESP went really fast at the last tournament.

I found eight ESP Surges marked 174. They weighed in at 1404, an average of 1.5 grams overweight. Why not just mark them as the 175s that they are?

These were not as overweight as the ten Innova Star discs, but maybe they should watch their carbs a little. :D

I went and looked for max weight ESP but I'm out. The ESP went really fast at the last tournament.

I found eight ESP Surges marked 174. They weighed in at 1404, an average of 1.5 grams overweight. Why not just mark them as the 175s that they are?

These were not as overweight as the ten Innova Star discs, but maybe they should watch their carbs a little. :D



less travel time may account for that. haven't you heard people say they gain weight just thinking about food? well in that same vein, the more a disc travels after manufacture before getting "out of the box" -- the more weight it puts on ;)

I don't think it is my scale. I buy deli lunch meats where you ask for a pound sliced or a half pound sliced. They have a digital gram scale accurate to the tenth of a gram and they print the gram weight on the bar code sticker. I have tested those on my scale and they are always +/- 1 gram on my scale, which is only accurate to +/- 1 gram. That's why I was weighing ten at a time.

If the water theory had any weight [ow! bad pun] the dyed discs should be heavier than the undyed from soaking up water. Dye is 84% water. I make it from powder so I know. The rinse is 100% water, more or less. I rinsed those dyed discs moments before I weighed them. So the water theory seems like b.s., except that if .02% is the right number, then that is about 1/3rd of a gram for ten discs, and that is negligible.

The bottom line is that a lot of players want heavy plastic. In order to produce large numbers of max weight discs, they have to produce large numbers of overweight discs.

I don't think it is my scale. I buy deli lunch meats where you ask for a pound sliced or a half pound sliced. They have a digital gram scale accurate to the tenth of a gram and they print the gram weight on the bar code sticker. I have tested those on my scale and they are always +/- 1 gram on my scale, which is only accurate to +/- 1 gram. That's why I was weighing ten at a time.

If the water theory had any weight [ow! bad pun] the dyed discs should be heavier than the undyed from soaking up water. Dye is 84% water. I make it from powder so I know. The rinse is 100% water, more or less. I rinsed those dyed discs moments before I weighed them. So the water theory seems like b.s., except that if .02% is the right number, then that is about 1/3rd of a gram for ten discs, and that is negligible.

The bottom line is that a lot of players want heavy plastic. In order to produce large numbers of max weight discs, they have to produce large numbers of overweight discs.



a scale designed to measure something 175g rather than something up to 2 pounds would probably be more accurate, but i think you're right that the disc manufacturing process causes a lot of slightly overweight discs to get produced when they try to make max weight discs to please customers. i suppose they could up the price of the discs and pass the cost on to consumers if it was insisted that all discs be weighed before an event to be PDGA legal. The "weigh-ins" might be something TD's would welcome -- whaddya think?

The bottom line is that a lot of players want heavy plastic. In order to produce large numbers of max weight discs, they have to produce large numbers of overweight discs.



No I am sorry but I don't buy this, I work in production for a major manufacturer of test equipment and you never sacrifice producing a product that does not meet spec for demand and you for sure never sell something as something it is not.

Weighing in 10 discs and then dividing the total by ten to get each individual weight is a bogus measurement for a manufacturer. If they can write the weight on each disc then they can weight each disc. A max weigh disc is a max weight disc and an over max weight discs is an over max weight disc and should not be sold.

I believe that if weight became a big issue with the PDGA the manufactures who support Disc Golf would request a tolerance be allowed on the limits of weight and they would tune their statistical outputs to minimize the number made over that max weight amount while still meeting demand. As is, if the weighing of product at the manufacturing plant is treated as a requirement to ship and not a requirement to sell there will never be much change, but if as a sport we hold our manufactures accountable to the rules we use to regulate our sport we can also expect an increase in cost for that same product.

So be careful what you wish for or what battles you chose to fight!

We could always enlist the services of the International Organization of Standardization (http://www.iso.org/iso/en/ISOOnline.frontpage).

doesn't it depend upon the cost per unit? if the item is expensive or precision is crucial -- getting exact becomes worth the effort.

getting the discs precise and scrapping all overweight ones would be pretty expensive and the cost would be reflected in
the price we pay for them. The new plastic (Star, ESP) evidently molds up heavy so it becomes even more of a problem with high-end plastic.

If they can write the weight on each disc then they can weight each disc.




I'll give you an AMEN BROTHER!

They DO weigh each disc. Sooooo..... if this is a big deal (which I really don't think it is) it is the manufacturer who is responsible for QC (that quality control) and who should NOT be selling over weight discs.

The bottom line is that a lot of players want heavy plastic. In order to produce large numbers of max weight discs, they have to produce large numbers of overweight discs.

No I am sorry but I don't buy this, I work in production for a major manufacturer of test equipment and you never sacrifice producing a product that does not meet spec for demand and you for sure never sell something as something it is not.

We aren't dealing with major manufacturing here. We're dealing with small manufacturers of a niche product who know a lot about frisbee flinging but are learning injection plastic molding on the fly. So long as it is more profitable to mark overweight discs at the max weight number than it would be to produce precision weight products, they'll just do what they do.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with what they do. They're just trying to make a living like anyone else.

Next Tuesday I'll have the deli lady weigh a couple of discs if she is not too busy.

Testing of drivers: actually, you're wrong, it doesn't happen, Tiger even complained about it, fairly vociferously. The rule is there but un-enforced.



I didn't think I was wrong...http://www.scratch-golfer.com/GolfDriverTestingStirsUpQuestions.htm

<font color="red"> I don't really care what this site says. I heard it from Tiger's mouth. The rule for the most part is un-enforced. </font>



I'll lay you odds you're less complaint with the rules than you think you are. I've seen it with the rules nazis. It�s easy enough to get on the MB and talk about rules obeyance, but it�s a lot harder to accomplish on the playing field, even for yourself. I know you are going to come back and tell me that you carefully obey every rule. I support that, but my on the field experience is very different.



I will say I work to follow every rule to the best of my knowledge. Therefore, everyone else should as well. Why, if I have to be concious of my footing on a runup, shouln't everyone else? Same question for disc compliance.

<font color="red"> I suggest you run for a Board postion and run on this issue. The rules committee takes a different view than you do on this very same issue. (Take a look for the post from Carlton, he states quite clearly that too close of an observance of the foot-fault rule would make the sport less exciting. I have argued that the rule should be changed and still hold that poistion.... Oh well!) Furthermore, I've reviewed hours of video and thousands of pics, pretty much everyone foot-faults including some of the zealouts who are very prickly about the foot-fault rule. </font>



People don�t cheat, they just aren�t as careful as they could be or would be in a perfect world. Should this change? Maybe, but then again, linemen shouldn�t be allowed to hold, and NBA stars shouldn�t be allowed to travel. The question becomes what is the overall spirit. Is the player�s intent to gain an advantage?



You're wrong. People do cheat, and sometimes, blatantly. If they are ignorant to the rule, should I not penalize them for breaking that branch in front of them? No.

<font color="red">Wow, my statement was a generalization and applied to all players. From that you took the principal and applied it to a few players. Unless you're actually saying that all players cheat and go out of their way to do so? Personally, I have more faith in my fellow players. But, lets take your point at face value. Do you really think that stringently applying this rule is going to stop someone who is actively trying to cheat? Someone intent on doing so will gain a lot more shaving strokes, than using a slightly overwieght disc. </font>



If you can find me a player that purposefully seeks out high weight discs to gain an advantage, I�d strongly support any move to have this rule better enforced than it currently is.




I know a guy (thro2nv) who has found that weighing and marking "actual" weight on discs is giving him an advantage on ebay. He sells all his overweight discs. Obviously players are liking his 177.8 wraith vs. joe schmo's 175 (factory marked) wraith.

<font color="red">If he really feels he's getting an advantage, why is he selling his discs? What's more, a lot of people think if they drink enough beer that they're actually more attractive to women. I'll let you judge that one on your own. I restate, I've yet to see evidence that someone actually gains an advantage from the 1 to 2 grams of extra weight. Again, I hear a lot of talk about it, but never from a top player. </font>



I disagree with you on weight and disc controllability over the range we're discussing. I've heard it repeated plenty but I've never seen it play out in real life. Yes, over the 20 grams difference between a 150 class and a 175 gram disc there are differences but those don't play out the same over a 1 or 2 gram difference. And, as I said above, I've yet to hear a serious Pro comment on this issue. You know if there were a real advantage, guys like Ken and Barry would be raising it as a problem, the same way that Tiger Woods did when he felt players were gaining an advantage from using illegal clubs.



1-2 grams isn't a huge difference. But as the rules ready now, there isn't a +/- tolerance. A disc can go out of the factory at ANY weight, as long as they mark it 175, it's ok. That doesn't seem right. If they throw out a 185 wraith, and call it 175, that's an advantage. Especially in a head wind.

<font color="red"> Find me a 185 gram Wraith. I've been measuring discs for years now, the heaviest disc in the 175 gram category I've ever seen is just over 177 grams measured on a highly acurate scientific scale. </font>




Surely you jest about players taking accountability. While many players can afford to toss an illegal disc, there are many who can't and won't.

There is a way to fix the problem, get a scale and carry it to tournaments. Challenge the top Pros to weigh their discs, if they refuse go to the TD. It won't be fun, but it will be effective.



I'm not a huge rule nazi. I do however like an even playing field. I'm not a stellar athlete...I need the playing field to be level. I'm sick of seeing factory players privy to discs I can't get. First example, the max. I go to practice USDGC and that's what people are throwing...where can I get one? You can't, not on the east coast...WTF? Oh, just wait for your player pack...WTF? that's great the night before I can try it out. LAME.

<font color="red">Actually this is a rule I stongly support. If someone actually plays a disc in a tournament that hasn't been widely produced (I believe the rule is 1000 discs produced and on the market) you have a legitimate complaint. I'd write the PDGA a note. </font>

Is "spirit of the game" written in the rule book?



<font color="red">I've actually made the same comparison about spirit of the game, I think it was Tony Bender who posted that I was fooling myself. Ultimate players often complain that the notion of spirit of the game is highly over-rated in their sport and that many (a highly variable concept) people cheat as a matter of course. </font>

Another thing to consider, the technical specifications also give a diameter. If the discs can gain at least 1 g of water weight I am willing to bet they fall outside of the diameter used for determining acceptance. The rules read that the the discs must meet the technical specs. So if the diameter varies, which will occur as the discs gain weight, shrink in the cold, expand in the heat, then they may be outside of spec for size as well. If the diamter varies, the flight characteristic will as well. That is simple aerodynamics. ;)



I know better than to debate a WORLD CHAMP! :D Congrats by the way. I love it when a Texan wins!

it seems to me skill trumps the supposed advantage of throwing a slightly overweight disc. i've never weighed a disc, but given what i've read it isn't hard to find them even for those of us without any special access to plastic...

if you look at the top 10 of the Japan Open ( see here (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5506) ) the regulars are still the ones at the top so i don't buy into the idea that overweight discs might garner a big advantage. i think Japan even weighs all the discs (?)



I stongly support this postion although I believe the margin that one gains from an overweight disc is small anyway. A top player relies on skill and the difference between 170 and 178 is marginal at best.

Let me restate what Aviar just said, There's a reason why Our top players can go to Japan and pick up the 150 class disc and still dominate. It's not about weight baby, it's about skill!

We aren't dealing with major manufacturing here. We're dealing with small manufacturers of a niche product who know a lot about frisbee flinging but are learning injection plastic molding on the fly.



Huh? The big 2 disc makers have been around for decades. I hardly think that they are learning "on the fly" any more. At least I hope not.

I'm not a huge rule nazi. I do however like an even playing field. I'm not a stellar athlete...I need the playing field to be level. I'm sick of seeing factory players privy to discs I can't get. First example, the max. I go to practice USDGC and that's what people are throwing...where can I get one? You can't, not on the east coast...WTF? Oh, just wait for your player pack...WTF? that's great the night before I can try it out. LAME.



The Max had been available on discgolfvalues.com for several weeks prior to the USDGC. I saw it mentioned several times, I heard it was PDGA approved, and I bought one. Maybe it wasn't widely available in every disc shop around, but I don't even have a local disc shop so it doesn't matter to me. In any case, it's not like only sponsored players had some great new disc. How widely available does something need to be to be acceptable?

AviarX brings up a good point, cost to the manufacturer! Like I eluded to, if the cost meant not beign able to sell your overweight plastic and raising the cost on your sellable plastic you would think to sell more, a company would revamp their manufacturing practices to produce a process that yields greater return at a cheaper cost. Thus maximizing profits by eliminating as much rework as possible.

I believe disc retailers can return disc to the manufacturer that weigh above the limits of the PDGA agreement on the mold. Does anyone know for sure if this is correct?

AviarX brings up a good point, cost to the manufacturer! Like I eluded to, if the cost meant not beign able to sell your overweight plastic and raising the cost on your sellable plastic you would think to sell more, a company would revamp their manufacturing practices to produce a process that yields greater return at a cheaper cost. Thus maximizing profits by eliminating as much rework as possible.

I believe disc retailers can return disc to the manufacturer that weigh above the limits of the PDGA agreement on the mold. Does anyone know for sure if this is correct?



i am pretty sure most disc manufacturers work with their sellers and buyers and if a disc is flawed (cosmetic, weight, etc.) they honor returns.

i also think it is worth noting that when Innova invented and began producing the beveled edge golf disc that pervades the sport today, it was started by a disc golfer for disc golfers. Profit and growth seem to have been driven by an interest in making products that would work better and to improve the sport itself. The main man at Innova, Gateway, and Discraft all throw and love discs. these are not bionic pacemakers which -- if out of tolerance 2% -- might cause someones heart to fail. the weight limits of golf discs were set, from what i gather, in the interest of safety.

It seems like the latest super fast sharp edged big rimmed discs may mold up in a weigh (oops, i mean 'way') that makes creating discs under 170 grams a much greater challenge -- especially in the latest top-of-the-line plastics. maybe someone with disc manufacturing experience will weigh in here...

imo, tolerances should be +/- 3% which would be about 5 grams on a 175g disc. ( or 2% which would be 3.5 grams) i think this is much ado about nothing. play 150g disc golf against some of the best players and see if you don't agree after they dominate. or take their max weight discs and give them your 170g ones and see if they don't still trounce you on the course /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I went and looked for max weight ESP but I'm out. The ESP went really fast at the last tournament.

I found eight ESP Surges marked 174. They weighed in at 1404, an average of 1.5 grams overweight. Why not just mark them as the 175s that they are?

These were not as overweight as the ten Innova Star discs, but maybe they should watch their carbs a little. :D





less travel time may account for that. haven't you heard people say they gain weight just thinking about food? well in that same vein, the more a disc travels after manufacture before getting "out of the box" -- the more weight it puts on ;)



I have a "Slew" of discraft discs that were made for the "Up-a-Tree Resort" about 5+ years ago...

In that bunch I have a 189.8g Cyclone2, a 191g X-Clone & a 187g Cyclone... :o

All "slightly" above that .02% margin mentioned :p
:D

I kept them because of the stamp & "personal" reasons..."Up-a-Tree" closed after the death of Pete Crossman :(

The Max had been available on discgolfvalues.com for several weeks prior to the USDGC. I saw it mentioned several times, I heard it was PDGA approved, and I bought one. Maybe it wasn't widely available in every disc shop around, but I don't even have a local disc shop so it doesn't matter to me. In any case, it's not like only sponsored players had some great new disc. How widely available does something need to be to be acceptable?



Oh say, at the pro shot at USDGC, about 5 miles from Innova East. That would have been good enought.

From what I have read you are just looking to whine about SOMETHING, weight....availability....my game :confused:.....If you want the latest stuff you have to seek it out, you can't expect a personal e-mail every time a new disc comes out.....Quit crying and go practice...it will help your game more than typing ;) :D

From what I have read you are just looking to whine about SOMETHING, weight....availability....my game :confused:.....If you want the latest stuff you have to seek it out, you can't expect a personal e-mail every time a new disc comes out.....Quit crying and go practice...it will help your game more than typing ;) :D



I'm not worried about your game. Nor am I crying. I'm just looking for some accoutability when it comes to the rules. From what I've seen, it's up to me to make rules calls. The rule book is black and white (for the most part). The gray area comes when people don't like what they read. Now, if something needs addressed or changed in the rule book, that's up to us as well. I'm all for a tolerance on the disc weights. But as it stands now we don't have it. Just play by the rules, thats all I ask. THanks for the tip /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Ideally, we'd change the rule to reflect reality, or enforce the rule. Having said that, who wants to pick up that crusade? Who wants to bring scales and tell people their discs are illegal? It would be a burden on the manufacturers, and a burden on the weight-fanatic-crusaders.

I'm a weight-fanatic-crusader, and have complained obnoxiously to most of the major manufacturers about disc weights that didn't weigh. We have a little electronic scale and use it all the time, bringing more focus onto this issue. We check the scale's accuracy with a 200-gram weight, that consistently weighs, on our scale, 199.9 grams. Close enough for our purposes.

It seems that about 3/4 of all the discs that come in are within a gram of their indicated weight (generally heavier), and lately, a vast majority of our discs are within half a gram -- in other words, correctly indicated.

On the other hand, a lot of max weight drivers and putters are a few grams over their legal limit. A bunch of 169 drivers are 171 or 172. Oddly, 167-gram drivers are almost always right on. There's some rhyme. There's some reason. I firmly believe it is not the scale, and not the humitidy or lack thereof.

I think after the Japan Open, and lots of talk, the manufacturers are paying more attention to the weights they write on their discs.

Perhaps they realize, too, that in in a game of inches, grams matter, too. If the rules are stoopid change them, but this should be a priority. If we are going to bother to have standards we have to bother to enforce them. I want to hear someone argue that this is not true.

If we are going to bother to have standards we have to bother to enforce them. I want to hear someone argue that this is not true.


This may be the single most intelligent statement I've read on this mesage board. Ever.

If we are going to bother to have standards we have to bother to enforce them. I want to hear someone argue that this is not true.


This may be the single most intelligent statement I've read on this mesage board. Ever.


Same thing with stance rules. If we are going to have stance rules, we should enforce them. Otherwise we shouldn't bother having stance rules.

Same thing with Courtesy Violations etc. etc. etc.

What battles are you going to fight?

They are manifestations of the same basic problem. Should we attack the root cause, or the symptom?

Everybody just wants to do whatever they do. Nobody wants to be a dick and make a call. Since we play for peanuts it really doesn't matter. If 1st place was $150,000 it would matter a lot more, ar at least be griped about a lot more. As long as we don't even bother trying to follow our own rules, it would seem really really silly to be playing for $150,000.

So we are where we are, and that's where we'll stay. Very slowly, but steadily, events like the USDGC are upping the ante and making it matter at those events. I don't really see it trickling down, rules-wise. And I didn't see anybody calling fairway runup foot-faults when I was in SC last year, so I don't know if we'll ever cross that threshold where we are paying enough money to warrant following our own rules.

Oh well. We are where we are and a few grams heavy or a few feet off the mark, always and without exception to the favorable side, doesn't seem to matter to anybody. And that's fine. It's just the way it is. Step off the fairway and fire up a bowl, everybody is always totally discreet when they do that.

They are manifestations of the same basic problem.

To wit, the natural tendency of humans to pursue their own self-interest as they see it. There is not much you can do about that except pursue your own self-interest as you see it at least as vigorously as your opponents do. :D

If we are going to bother to have standards we have to bother to enforce them. I want to hear someone argue that this is not true.



And to think I made a bunch of posts when this is all I wanted to say. Thanks Jason. :D

I guess I'm a dick because I make calls. I dont look for them, but when I happen to notice a foot fault, I call it. Why is everyone so spineless?

The newest problem I have is the effin 10 meter jump putt. I'm carrying a ruler with me these days.

The newest problem I have is the effin 30 meter jump putt. I'm carrying a ruler with me these days.



What's so special about 98 foot jump putts? :D

98 feet, 40 feet, doesn't really matter. Most of them are thrown illegally. Most of them are never called.

Why care about an illegal jump putt inside ten meters if you aren't going to call the illegal jump putt outside ten meters?

Probably we need to change the names so that when legal it is called a putt-jump and when illegal
a jump-putt ...

98 feet, 40 feet, doesn't really matter. Most of them are thrown illegally. Most of them are never called.

Why care about an illegal jump putt inside ten meters if you aren't going to call the illegal jump putt outside ten meters?



My bad. I had 30ft on the brain. I meant 10 meters. Which is MORE than 30 ft.

My jump putt isn't illegal. It's not really even a jump putt, it's more of a step through which is perfectly legal. So I guess I disagree, most of them are legal. And a jump putt inside 10 meters is a layup, not a putt.