During a tournament round a disc is discovered that was not in play (i.e. a lost disc not thrown by your group or any possible nearby group). What can be done with the disc?

Everyone I have consulted believes something different but most people agree that you can not pick it up without being stroked in some way or DQ'd. Everyone seems sure that it is a rule but can not provide the rule. Many believe it to be an illegal disc but there seems to be nothing applicable in the rules. Why so much confusion on this subject?

I have consulted the PDGA Official Rules of Disc Golf (2006 Ed.) and could not find a rule for this scenario. It is not covered in the section on Equipement (802). Is there an official rule on this subject?

It seems reasonable to me that after you have ascertained that the disc is in fact some previously lost disc then you would notify the group that you are going to carry it with the intent of giving it to the TD or other event official. Seems to be the common sense thing to do.

It's one of those mythical rules that's not a rule. You can use a disc loaned to you by another player in your group. You can stop at your car and get more discs if there's time during a round. You can buy discs during the round to use. And you can carry and even use a disc that you found during the round under the circumstances that it's not a disc currently being played. I would check to make sure the disc is not cracked or illegal for any other reason (not PDGA approved) to identify it to the group per rule 802.01B.

The only requirement is that any disc you throw be uniquely marked. Obviously if a disc does not have your standard mark or name on it, it's a good thing to tell others in your group what this special mark is.

803.07.C could come into play if the disc is still in play. That's the only problem with picking up an otherwise legal disc found on the course. You must be certain that it is not an errant throw from a nearby hole.

You can use a disc loaned to you by another player in your group.



i played in a group once where this occurred- it was at the first buckhorn open. the player in question threw every disc in his bag in harris lake (absolutely monstrous wind). he was going to go home but we loaned him discs to finish.

i played in a group once where this occurred- it was at the first buckhorn open. the player in question threw every disc in his bag in harris lake (absolutely monstrous wind). he was going to go home but we loaned him discs to finish.



Unless this was a surprise microburst of wind or unless this was a pro only tournament, I say shame on that TD. There should have been a drop zone.

There is no rule that says you cannot pick up the disc and return it as lost and found, unless it is a live disc. By this I mean it is still a playable disc:

803.07C C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or obscures another player's thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.

Here is the rule that causes most people to be concerned about picking up an unknown disc. Who wants to chance picking up a disc and returning it to the TD as a lost and found disc and then fear being stroked for having done so?

If you pick it up and cause someone to "lose" a disc, you have potentially caused them a stroke and distance penality as well. If I come across a disc and it clearly has been left behind, for instance I know the identifying mark to be Joe Blow who is two holes ahead of us, I will carry it in and return the disc. If I am not sure I will leave it.

By the way, the same fear of picking up a disc should also apply to mini's as well.

I was on a card during a tournament at Wilco in Austin where one of the players threw a high straight shot on an open hole. The wind caught it and faded it left behind some shrubs...Actually right by to the next tee area. The rest of us teed off and set off down the fairway. Once we got to the place where the disc obviously landed, there was no sign of it. We looked for the three minutes (probably longer) before ruling it lost and he reteed. The strange thing is, we found it two holes later halfway down #18's fairway. This is well over 1000 feet away, so another player on the card in front of us had to have picked it up, used it and left it. No one on our card witnessed the act, or who did it, so the player was out two strokes, but happy he got his disc back. Sucks though, that he got penalized for someone else's "mistake."

I was on a card during a tournament at Wilco in Austin where one of the players threw a high straight shot on an open hole. The wind caught it and faded it left behind some shrubs...Actually right by to the next tee area. The rest of us teed off and set off down the fairway. Once we got to the place where the disc obviously landed, there was no sign of it. We looked for the three minutes (probably longer) before ruling it lost and he reteed. The strange thing is, we found it two holes later halfway down #18's fairway. This is well over 1000 feet away, so another player on the card in front of us had to have picked it up, used it and left it. No one on our card witnessed the act, or who did it, so the player was out two strokes, but happy he got his disc back. Sucks though, that he got penalized for someone else's "mistake."


If he didn't have the two strokes removed from his score after discovering the disc had been taken, then someone didn't know their rules very well.


803.11 LOST DISC
C. If it is discovered prior to the completion of the tournament, that a player�s disc that was declared lost had been removed or taken, then the player shall have two throws removed from his or her score.


He didn't have to be penalized for someone else's "mistake".

--Josh

That is the problem with picking up someones disc. But...... since you did not see anyone pick it up you are only guessing that someone picked it up. They may have, it may also have been picked up by a dog and it is possible it teleported. I once played in a tournament that tee'd off a hill and over some trees. You could see the pin, and you could see the disc, until it went over the trees. There was a cross wind, and when we did not find the disc on the ground or see it in the trees, we believed it must have been picked up by the wind. We found the disc about 400 ft from the hole over 900 ft from the tee, as the crow flies and there was no one that could have moved the disc. I can only guessed it was grabbed by the wind, hit just right and rolled.

So we see why there is such hesitancy to pick up a found disc. You could get penalized and so could the thrower. So I will reiterate, you must be very careful in picking up a disc and carrying it in. Several monthes back I played a tournament at Cedar Hill in Texas. I hit a tree off the tee and the disc bounced 40 ft into some serious shule. I climbed my way in and while in there I found a second run CE Valkarie. I chose to pick it up, because there was no way the player threw it there. It had to have been lost. I took it to the TD and told them to hold it apart from the lost and found. That is a disc people will momentarily believe is theirs. I took the chance of picking up 2 strokes, but leaving that disc would have been discourteous (in my mind at least).


I was on a card during a tournament at Wilco in Austin where one of the players threw a high straight shot on an open hole. The wind caught it and faded it left behind some shrubs...Actually right by to the next tee area. The rest of us teed off and set off down the fairway. Once we got to the place where the disc obviously landed, there was no sign of it. We looked for the three minutes (probably longer) before ruling it lost and he reteed. The strange thing is, we found it two holes later halfway down #18's fairway. This is well over 1000 feet away, so another player on the card in front of us had to have picked it up, used it and left it. No one on our card witnessed the act, or who did it, so the player was out two strokes, but happy he got his disc back. Sucks though, that he got penalized for someone else's "mistake."

If you find a disc during a tournament, leave it alone. Absolutely.

You have a tournament to play and can't be bothered with distractions, the lost disc is somebody elses problem. Take care of it after the tournament.

You want a fun situation?

US Mid Nationals this summer, fourth round of the tournament and the second on Blueberry Hill of the day... On the second hole (hole number two on Blueberry) I teed off and it carried around a bend. With the huge crosswinds we assumed it carried into the woods.

Within the woods I found the disc. My candy red star teerex with a blue stamp. It was a better lie for me to play it without putting down a mini, so I went to my knees behind it and played out of the woods.

As the next player walked to his lie he noticed a candy red star teerex with a blue stamp. ... ... There are no possible holes that you could play anywhere on the course to accidentally land on this fairway, so he picked it on up... it had my distinct mark on the bottom.

I looked at the disc I had picked up in the woods? No mark on the bottom. Same weight and everything. I played a provisional from each lie and in the end Dave Gentry, after probably fifteen minutes going back and forth with a marshall on the issue gave me (generously, I think) the score of my play from MY lie, plus one penalty stroke for a four on the hole. (playing from the disc that was not mine I had holed out at four, playing from the disc that was mine I had holed out at three)

Really ridiculous situation that we absolutely could NOT find a specific rule for.


-Chris.

I am confused, there is a rule for this situaiton:

803.10 Throwing From Another Player's Lie
A. A player who has thrown from another player's lie shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning. The offending player shall complete the hole as if the other player's lie were his or her own. No throws shall be replayed.

How is this unclear? I am assuming that you are thinking that since it was not a disc in play that it should have been considered different, but the rule does not say that. It says that if it is not your disc and you play from it, you must finish the hole out from that disc with a 2-stroke penalty.




You want a fun situation?

US Mid Nationals this summer, fourth round of the tournament and the second on Blueberry Hill of the day... On the second hole (hole number two on Blueberry) I teed off and it carried around a bend. With the huge crosswinds we assumed it carried into the woods.

Within the woods I found the disc. My candy red star teerex with a blue stamp. It was a better lie for me to play it without putting down a mini, so I went to my knees behind it and played out of the woods.

As the next player walked to his lie he noticed a candy red star teerex with a blue stamp. ... ... There are no possible holes that you could play anywhere on the course to accidentally land on this fairway, so he picked it on up... it had my distinct mark on the bottom.

I looked at the disc I had picked up in the woods? No mark on the bottom. Same weight and everything. I played a provisional from each lie and in the end Dave Gentry, after probably fifteen minutes going back and forth with a marshall on the issue gave me (generously, I think) the score of my play from MY lie, plus one penalty stroke for a four on the hole. (playing from the disc that was not mine I had holed out at four, playing from the disc that was mine I had holed out at three)

Really ridiculous situation that we absolutely could NOT find a specific rule for.


-Chris.

This seems to be argued back and forth that if it is not another players lie, then 803.10.A doesn't apply. The logic being that if you play from another player's lie, you will move their lie, possibly cause them a lost disc penalty, etc. It it was just an abandoned disc, the natural consequences of playing from there aren't as bad and don't justify the +2 penalty.

In the case described above, it seems that the ruling considered it a practice throw, so +1. If he had completed the hole (and not gone back to his real disc), then it would have been +2 misplay.

Since the disc was not marked uniquely, it was probably not a disc used in tourney play, and not "someone's lie". It sounds like the misplay was ruled as a practice throw and given a 1 stroke penalty.

This is why the rules are not consistent. If you throw from someone else's lie, either intentionally or by mistake, 2 strokes. If you throw from 2 ft. behind your lie, or anyone else's, or just some random place on the course, 1 stroke. It just doesn't seem to make sense.

I think the RC is also considering this to be the case that the rule should just be a 1-shot penalty if you don't play from your correct lie regardless where you throw from.

I understand what you guys are saying, but even without a mark you cannot prove that it is not "another player's lie" until after the round is over. In effect what is being said is that if the disc does not belong to anyone in your group, then it does not fall under the rule for playing from another players lie. I don't see any thing that allows variance for that in the rule. I believe, at least in part, that the intent is for you to verify it is your disc first and them play from the lie.

Let us assume the player had verified it was not his disc, then there would have been a search for a lost disc. If the disc had not been found in the time frame allowed, he would have had stroke AND distance, as it stands he only had a stroke. Personnally, I don't agree with distance, but with a lost disc that is the penality applied by the current rule. In effect you have allowed the player to circumvent a penality stroke by calling it a practice throw. As a matter of fact, if you called it a practice throw, did you also call the extra putt a practice throw as well? That should have counted for another stroke.

I think the RC is also considering this to be the case that the rule should just be a 1-shot penalty if you don't play from your correct lie regardless where you throw from.


I hope they don't change this rule. Playing from the wrong location, whether it's another player's lie or an abandoned disc or you didn't know you were OB, should be a major penalty. 2 strokes, to me, seems in order for that completely avoidable mistake. 1 stroke just doesn't seem like enough.

I agree with Rhett. It is not like it is a difficult thing to verify your disc and could very easily affect another player.



I think the RC is also considering this to be the case that the rule should just be a 1-shot penalty if you don't play from your correct lie regardless where you throw from.


I hope they don't change this rule. Playing from the wrong location, whether it's another player's lie or an abandoned disc or you didn't know you were OB, should be a major penalty. 2 strokes, to me, seems in order for that completely avoidable mistake. 1 stroke just doesn't seem like enough.

You guys have a point. I just think the rules should be consistant. Practice throw, playing from wrong lie, and playing from anywhere except your lie when you are supposed to should be the same penalty....beit 1 or 2 strokes. But you guys are thinking as pro's, think about beginners, mistakes happen and the rules should balance for all divisions. 2 strokes for a beginner making an honest mistake is very brutal. I personally think 2 strokes is ok, but beginners and their continued participation is what will keep our sport alive. We don't want to traumatize our juniors and beginners over something so trivial.

I'm an am. :)

But I personally don't think playing from "not your lie" is a trivial matter. Our game, in a nutshell, is to throw, throw again from where you landed, etc. It's a basic tenet of the game to "play it where it lies", so I think a 2 stroke penalty is completely justified if you fail to do that.

I can be pretty cynical about this game, but I do manage to assume that anytime anyone plays from the wrong lie/spot it's an honest mistake. Mistakes happen to everybody. You get stung with a 2-stroke penalty and it sure makes you pay attention from then on. One stroke just doesn't seem to have that effect.

I also don't see anything wrong with this one being 2-strokes and the others you mention being one stroke. An execution error like landing out of bounds is one thing. Not playing it where it lies is another.

Just my opinion. :)

I like the 2 strokes for things like playing from the wrong lie, 2 strokes makes you learn quickly. I got my 2 strokes for mistallying a score, I check my score 4 or 5 times before I'm sure.

I understand what you guys are saying, but even without a mark you cannot prove that it is not "another player's lie" until after the round is over. In effect what is being said is that if the disc does not belong to anyone in your group, then it does not fall under the rule for playing from another players lie. I don't see any thing that allows variance for that in the rule. I believe, at least in part, that the intent is for you to verify it is your disc first and them play from the lie.

Let us assume the player had verified it was not his disc, then there would have been a search for a lost disc. If the disc had not been found in the time frame allowed, he would have had stroke AND distance, as it stands he only had a stroke. Personnally, I don't agree with distance, but with a lost disc that is the penality applied by the current rule. In effect you have allowed the player to circumvent a penality stroke by calling it a practice throw. As a matter of fact, if you called it a practice throw, did you also call the extra putt a practice throw as well? That should have counted for another stroke.


The extra putt was not called another stroke as all of the players in the group decided to play it as provisional. We didn't do it so I could circumvent the rules, we did it because the rule was not clear and so that we could decide the exact penalty AFTER the round with somebody in a position to make the call (in this case: Dave Gentry).

Chris,

I understand that you called it a provisional and I read that it was only a single stroke, but what rule allows for that? Certainly you are allowed to play it as a provisional it is the penality that I think was mis applied. The closest rule is playing from another players lie. Either the rule only applies if it is from another player's lie in your group or it applies from any disc that is not your own. The rule does not say from another players lie in your group, it simply states, from another player's lie. If we are going to say that the rules only appy if it is within your group then the lost disc rule would also have to fall under that understanding, as would quite a few other rules.


The extra putt was not called another stroke as all of the players in the group decided to play it as provisional. We didn't do it so I could circumvent the rules, we did it because the rule was not clear and so that we could decide the exact penalty AFTER the round with somebody in a position to make the call (in this case: Dave Gentry).

Chris,

I understand that you called it a provisional and I read that it was only a single stroke, but what rule allows for that? Certainly you are allowed to play it as a provisional it is the penality that I think was mis applied. The closest rule is playing from another players lie. Either the rule only applies if it is from another player's lie in your group or it applies from any disc that is not your own. The rule does not say from another players lie in your group, it simply states, from another player's lie. If we are going to say that the rules only appy if it is within your group then the lost disc rule would also have to fall under that understanding, as would quite a few other rules.


Good point, but here is my question for you. How do you know it was someone's lie? What if it was a disc that fell out of someone's bag? Would you call that a "lie"? Since you don't know the history of the "mystery disc", you can't call it a lie if it's not someone's in your group and no other holes play close to where the disc was found. One would assume that it was not someone's who was playing in the tournament because it was illegal (because it had no name or markings). It's a tough situation, but I don't think this would warrant the 2 strokes for playing from someone else's lie, since there is no evidence that the mystery disc was someone's lie.
Also, if the disc was declared lost from a previous group, than that "lie" is killed once the 2 minutes of searching are up. If it's where someone played and forgot to pick it up and they complete the hole by holing out, that lie is killed also. So I guess the argument is what the exact definition of a "lie" is.

I think that you are partially correct, in that we need to look at the definition of a lie. However according to the rule book the term "lie" is The spot on the playing surface upon which the player takes his or her stance in accordance with the rules.

A couple of things, if the player took a "lie" and it was not his, then it had to be someone elses. The player defined a lie the instant he threw from it. Also note that there is nothing in there about whether it was the group ahead of you, your group or someone from several days back. As for the disc being not marked, that does NOT imply some did not throw it at the tornament. There is even a rule for throwing unmarked discs during tournament play.

So, at least in my mind, all that we can look at is that the rules be applied consistently. All the other rules apply whether the infraction occurs within your group or outside of it. Examples include interference with a disc, lost disc, courtesy, etc.

I have gone back an re-read the rule and it does not give 2 strokes if you effect another player's lie, it states simply throwing from another players lie. It even says that you cannot go back an rethrow. You have to finish out from the wrong lie, take your 2 storkes and go on.

I am not trying to be argumentitive, I just don't understand how the rules allow the differenct interpretation. I can have my mind changed, but not by saying ti does not feel right. I don't fee that distance is valid for a lost disc penalty, but that is the rule and I will abide by it.



Good point, but here is my question for you. How do you know it was someone's lie? What if it was a disc that fell out of someone's bag? Would you call that a "lie"? Since you don't know the history of the "mystery disc", you can't call it a lie if it's not someone's in your group and no other holes play close to where the disc was found. One would assume that it was not someone's who was playing in the tournament because it was illegal (because it had no name or markings). It's a tough situation, but I don't think this would warrant the 2 strokes for playing from someone else's lie, since there is no evidence that the mystery disc was someone's lie.
Also, if the disc was declared lost from a previous group, than that "lie" is killed once the 2 minutes of searching are up. If it's where someone played and forgot to pick it up and they complete the hole by holing out, that lie is killed also. So I guess the argument is what the exact definition of a "lie" is.

The point was that it wasn't necessarily someone else's lie. Yes it was the lie of the player that mistakenly threw from there, but it wasn't a lie for anyone else (disc dropped, lost, left behind, etc.) at the point in time he threw from it. This is why the throwing from another player's lie penalty does not apply.

How do you know it was not another player's lie? Yes after the round was over and the disc sat in lost and found for the rest of the tournament you may be able to say it was not a "live" lie, but it was not the player's lie. Period. The definition of lie states the place the disc is marked and played from. If it was not the player's, and the disc was used as a lie, then it was someone elses. Once again I may be missing something, but I don't see where the rule states that if you play from a disc that is not "live" then the penality is different.


The point was that it wasn't necessarily someone else's lie. Yes it was the lie of the player that mistakenly threw from there, but it wasn't a lie for anyone else (disc dropped, lost, left behind, etc.) at the point in time he threw from it. This is why the throwing from another player's lie penalty does not apply.

How do you know it was not another player's lie? Yes after the round was over and the disc sat in lost and found for the rest of the tournament you may be able to say it was not a "live" lie, but it was not the player's lie. Period. The definition of lie states the place the disc is marked and played from. If it was not the player's, and the disc was used as a lie, then it was someone elses. Once again I may be missing something, but I don't see where the rule states that if you play from a disc that is not "live" then the penality is different.



I too do not see how the penalty can be anything other than two strokes for playing from "the incorrect lie". Perhaps the rule should include the words "incorrect lie" along with the wording "another players lie".

2 shot penalty. period.

I doesn't matter if the disc isn't in play or not. If it's not your disc, it's not your lie.

It does matter.

The penalty for throwing from "not your lie" is a practice throw.

The penalty for throwing from "another player's lie" is 2 strokes.

I don't think the penalty should depend upon the chance that the disc you threw from happened to be abandoned instead of live from an adjacent fairway.

I also don't see the necessary tie between "not your lie" and "another player's lie". it is not required to prove that it is not another player's lie to avoid the 2 stroke penalty, it is required to prove that it is another player's lie to impose the 2 stroke penalty. I really don't like the fact that both throws were played to completion after the misplay was discovered, but I'm not sure how I would have ruled on that part.

Please post link to rule about throwing from "not your lie", I can't seem to find that rule.

He marked his lie inappropriately. Technically it WAS another player's lie because it wasn't his disc that he took a stance behind. This means it belonged to another player. It doesn't say anywhere in the rule that it has to be another player in the current event. It could have been from a rec player who lost the disc three weeks ago, or from the group in front of the player, or from someone the previous round, or from a player two fairways over.

He marked his lie inappropriately. Technically it WAS another player's lie because it wasn't his disc that he took a stance behind. This means it belonged to another player. It doesn't say anywhere in the rule that it has to be another player in the current event. It could have been from a rec player who lost the disc three weeks ago, or from the group in front of the player, or from someone the previous round, or from a player two fairways over.


We tried to hash this one out like this a while ago, but Suzette brings up a good point we didn't cover last time. I like it.

Maybe the rule should be re-worded to something like:

Throwing From the Wrong Lie
If a player throws a disc from a location that is not their lie, they will be penalized as follows
A. If the misplay is discovered prior to a subsequent throw, the misplay shall be considered a practice throw and one penalty throw shall be incurred. Play shall resume from the correct lie.
B. If the misplay is discovered after a subsequent throw has been made, the player shall be penalized 2 throws and the offending player shall complete the hole as if the incorrect lie were his or her own. No throws shall be replayed.

I think that would be a little more consistent with other rules.

Gary,

Thanks I can now see how a 1 penalty stroke can be applied. I am not sure I agree, but I can see the reasoning.

So my question is, how can you tell if the disc is "in play"? I ask this question after saying that I will pick up a lost disc and carry it in and the same question could be asked about it as well. I guess by my own reasoning I am on shakey ground by doing so.


It does matter.

The penalty for throwing from "not your lie" is a practice throw.

The penalty for throwing from "another player's lie" is 2 strokes.

I don't think the penalty should depend upon the chance that the disc you threw from happened to be abandoned instead of live from an adjacent fairway.

I also don't see the necessary tie between "not your lie" and "another player's lie". it is not required to prove that it is not another player's lie to avoid the 2 stroke penalty, it is required to prove that it is another player's lie to impose the 2 stroke penalty. I really don't like the fact that both throws were played to completion after the misplay was discovered, but I'm not sure how I would have ruled on that part.

The rules are below.
And the wording and organization of rule 803.10 really make it difficult to apply it to this situation. It really seems to be there to penalize the player only when his mistake impacts another player. I think it should be 2 strokes for playing from/marking the wrong disc to encourage players to always verify the disc before playing.

I don't think marking the proper disc and then playing from behind the disc instead of the mini is worthy of a 2 stroke penalty.

Not your lie:

800 Definitions
Practice Throw: During a round, the projection of a disc of a distance greater than two meters, or of any distance toward a target, intentional or not, which does not change the player�s lie, either because it did not occur from the teeing area or the lie, or because the player had already thrown competitively from the teeing area or the lie. Throws that are re-thrown in accordance with the rules are not practice throws. Provisional throws made pursuant to 803.01 C and 803.01 D (3) are not practice throws. A player shall receive a penalty for a practice throw in accordance with sections 803.01 B or 804.02 A (2).



Another Player's lie:

803.10 Throwing From Another Player�s Lie
A. A player who has thrown from another player�s lie shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning. The offending player shall complete the hole as if the other player�s lie were his or her own. No throws shall be replayed.

B. The player whose lie was played by the offending player shall be given an approximate lie as close to the original lie as possible, as determined by the offending player, a majority of his or her group, or an official. See section 803.11 C if the disc has been declared lost.

I can understand why it would be mainly to stop a player from interfering with another lie, but I am not sure that a practice throw is the right call. The player threw from the disc under the assumption that it was his lie with the intent to improve his lie. It was not a second shot and while you can argue it was not his "lie", we do have a rule for playing from another players lie. If you look at the definition of a lie that is what the player thought he was throwing from. Note that the rule for practice throws does not say anything about the "wrong lie".

As for it being too pumitive, I agree. However, I also think the lost disc rule is too punitive.


The rules are below.
And the wording and organization of rule 803.10 really make it difficult to apply it to this situation. It really seems to be there to penalize the player only when his mistake impacts another player. I think it should be 2 strokes for playing from/marking the wrong disc to encourage players to always verify the disc before playing.

I don't think marking the proper disc and then playing from behind the disc instead of the mini is worthy of a 2 stroke penalty.

Not your lie:

800 Definitions
Practice Throw: During a round, the projection of a disc of a distance greater than two meters, or of any distance toward a target, intentional or not, which does not change the player�s lie, either because it did not occur from the teeing area or the lie, or because the player had already thrown competitively from the teeing area or the lie. Throws that are re-thrown in accordance with the rules are not practice throws. Provisional throws made pursuant to 803.01 C and 803.01 D (3) are not practice throws. A player shall receive a penalty for a practice throw in accordance with sections 803.01 B or 804.02 A (2).



Another Player's lie:

803.10 Throwing From Another Player�s Lie
A. A player who has thrown from another player�s lie shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning. The offending player shall complete the hole as if the other player�s lie were his or her own. No throws shall be replayed.

B. The player whose lie was played by the offending player shall be given an approximate lie as close to the original lie as possible, as determined by the offending player, a majority of his or her group, or an official. See section 803.11 C if the disc has been declared lost.

I don't think that a practice throw is the correct call. Practice throws say nothing about being from a lie. I have always thought it refered to those shots where you threw a disc back to your bag or any shot that goes toward the basket. It is also shots you take with a disc to get another disc out of a tree. (That's why you throw the water bottle ;))

IMO, if you throw from a disc that is not yours, you threw from the wrong lie.

If we say that throwing from a location that is not a) your own lie or b) the lie of another, and furthermore is not a practice throw, then what options do we have? The only rule that seems to directly apply would be a stance violation which needs to be called and seconded within three seconds.

Mike,

I am not disagreeing with you, but how do you know it is not another's lie? This is what I was asking earlier, there is no way to easily verifying it is not another player's lie, but there is a very easy way to verify it is not your lie. By definition if you mark the disc or just throw from behind it, you make it a lie. I still believe the rule for playing from another player's lie is the closest.


If we say that throwing from a location that is not a) your own lie or b) the lie of another, and furthermore is not a practice throw, then what options do we have? The only rule that seems to directly apply would be a stance violation which needs to be called and seconded within three seconds.

All this rhetoric has me thinking that we all should mark our discs on the top AND the bottom to make IDing a simpler task.
I've thrown from the exact same colored disc with the exact same colored hotstamp before...and would hate to make this mistake in a tourney when the strokes REALLY count.
.02 // YMMV

Mike,

I am not disagreeing with you, but how do you know it is not another's lie? This is what I was asking earlier, there is no way to easily verifying it is not another player's lie, but there is a very easy way to verify it is not your lie. By definition if you mark the disc or just throw from behind it, you make it a lie. I still believe the rule for playing from another player's lie is the closest.


If we say that throwing from a location that is not a) your own lie or b) the lie of another, and furthermore is not a practice throw, then what options do we have? The only rule that seems to directly apply would be a stance violation which needs to be called and seconded within three seconds.





I was trying to get away from the arugment about whether or not the disc was actually another player's lie. Read my if clause as a "for the sake argument consider true". Whether or not the lie was another player's is a valid question, but not the one I was addressing.

Intent is not part of the consideration for a proctice throw. It doesn't matter what your current understanding or intent was, if you throw a disc (more than...) from any place on the course other than the correct active tee or lie, you have thrown a practice throw.

Direct example:
Group A uses the blue tee in the morning and the red tee in the afternoon. A player walks up to the blue tee in the afternoon and throws their drive fully intending for it to be their real drive on that hole. The next player remembers that they should be on the red tees this round. The drive is recorded as a practice throw.

IMHO, The same logic should apply to any place on the course when believes they are at the correct lie or tee.

Except of course when they are combining the penalties of interference and practice throw by playing from another players lie (and presumably picking it up afterwards).

Gary -

Your throwing from the wrong tee example is a practice throw. I agree with you there.

However, IMO it is the golfers responsibility to be sure that the disc/lie they are throwing from (subsequent to the tee) is their own. In my mind, it doesn't matter whos disc it is and when it got there, if it's not your disc, it's not your lie and it's 2 strokes.

The definition of a practice throw is throwing from "not your lie".

The 2-stroke penalty described in 803.10 indicates throwing from another players active lie and implies that you then pick up the lie before the misplay discovered and have to approximate the other players lie. I agree that it is not clearly spelled out that way, but reading the entire rule, the intent seems clear. The harsher penalty is imposed because you are potentially impacting another player.

As I stated above, I am in favor of writing the rule so that any time a player fails to properly identify an accessible (not stuck in a tree 30 feet off the ground) disc and throws from the incorrect disc/lie it is a 2 stroke penalty. It's just not written that way now.

Gary,

I can understand what you are saying, but tee-ing from the wrong tee is defined in 801.04 B(1) as a practice throw, whereas playing from the wrong lie does not have similar definition. Playing from the wrong tee, throwning from OB, wrong sequence, missed manadatory all are penalized as a practice throw. There are very specific reasons for calling these practice throws. Additionally, if you throw a second time there is a 2 stroke penality. We do not have a similar definition for playing from the wrong lie.

Once again, I can see your point. I can see how an official would call it as such.

In my way of thinking,"not your lie" in the practice throw definition means not behind a disc. It's any throw not defined any place else in the rule book (OB, mandos, wrong tee, etc.) and not lined up behind a disc throwing towards the hole.

I would rule it (if asked) that if you throw from a disc that is not yours, it's playing from someone elses lie.

If you go along with precedents, all of those rules set the precedent that the initial throw in a misplay is a practice throw, and retractable if discovered prior to a second throw.

Once a second throw in a misplay has been taken, there are no options. The score of the hole is as misplayed + 2.

The use of provisional throws in the case of confusion is implied to be allowed.

At the moment of truth, the following had happened.
The player had driven the hole, found a disc thought to be his own and not belonging to any other curent player on the course. He marked his lie and threw. Then his real disc was found further down the fairway.

At this point, he should be charged with one practice throw and made to play the correct lie to completion. In the confusion, the group allowed a misuse of the provisional throw rule, which shouldn't be held against the player any more than against the group.

I would really like to see a clarification on 803.10 and practice throws specifically for throwing from the wrong disc vs. throwing from other than your lie (the disc instead of the marker) vs. throwing from another player's active lie.

All well thought out and I agree with one concern, how do you know the disc did not belong to anyone else on the course? What if the disc was an errant flight and the first group continued their play and were off to the next hole before the owner of the "lost" disc came looking? Once again I know that I would pick up a disc and turn it in to lost and found if I felt certain it was not a disc in play, but I run the real threat of a 2 stroke penalty by doing so. I guess if it is felt the disc was not in play, you can certainly access the 1 stroke penalty, but what do you do if it is discovered that you interfered with another players disc? Do you go back and reaccess the additional stroke? Do you add 2 more for messing with a live disc? By always assuming it was another player's lie this question cannot be raised.

At this point I am now leaning more towards a single stroke as well, though this is one penalty that can be easily deflected by simply checking for your mark.


If you go along with precedents, all of those rules set the precedent that the initial throw in a misplay is a practice throw, and retractable if discovered prior to a second throw.

Once a second throw in a misplay has been taken, there are no options. The score of the hole is as misplayed + 2.

The use of provisional throws in the case of confusion is implied to be allowed.

At the moment of truth, the following had happened.
The player had driven the hole, found a disc thought to be his own and not belonging to any other curent player on the course. He marked his lie and threw. Then his real disc was found further down the fairway.

At this point, he should be charged with one practice throw and made to play the correct lie to completion. In the confusion, the group allowed a misuse of the provisional throw rule, which shouldn't be held against the player any more than against the group.

I would really like to see a clarification on 803.10 and practice throws specifically for throwing from the wrong disc vs. throwing from other than your lie (the disc instead of the marker) vs. throwing from another player's active lie.

How do you know it was not in play ?

Because the original scenario specified that it was not in play.

As the next player walked to his lie he noticed a candy red star teerex with a blue stamp. ... ... There are no possible holes that you could play anywhere on the course to accidentally land on this fairway, so he picked it on up... it had my distinct mark on the bottom.

All well thought out and I agree with one concern, how do you know the disc did not belong to anyone else on the course? What if the disc was an errant flight and the first group continued their play and were off to the next hole before the owner of the "lost" disc came looking? Once again I know that I would pick up a disc and turn it in to lost and found if I felt certain it was not a disc in play, but I run the real threat of a 2 stroke penalty by doing so. I guess if it is felt the disc was not in play, you can certainly access the 1 stroke penalty, but what do you do if it is discovered that you interfered with another players disc? Do you go back and reaccess the additional stroke? Do you add 2 more for messing with a live disc? By always assuming it was another player's lie this question cannot be raised.

At this point I am now leaning more towards a single stroke as well, though this is one penalty that can be easily deflected by simply checking for your mark.


Well I had specifically already stated that there were no other holes that you could possibly misplay to that lie. I worked on the courses all summer and know them like the back of my hand (hell, I messed up the mower blades so often I could probably tell you where every protruding stone is).

Although I do agree with you, simply checking my disc would have been the correct move and I haven't gone many throws since that time without checking the disc for my mark, additionally upon finishing the round I wrote my PDGA number on the top of the disc to make it easier to do. My only defense is that it was in an awkward position and placing a mini would have left me worse off in terms of stance, would have forced me to run the risk of shifting branches to get a stance.

This has been a good argument to read, I've learned quite a bit on the rules of playing a lie. :) ... Now if only I'd stop being so lazy and finish that half-completed Officials Test sitting in My Documents...


-Chris.