Where does it say in our rulebook that another player or spectator should not move obstacles to stance?

So ..............it's OK then to have your caddy's ladyfriend sister , move items ?

803.05 Says the player may. It doesn't say squat about anyone else maybe able too.

Where does it say in our rulebook that another player or spectator should not move obstacles to stance?



Nowhere that I can find. However, the rules seem only to empower the effected player to move obstacles that he or she can legally move.

Where does it say in our rulebook that another player or spectator should not move obstacles to stance?



803.01F

Rule of Fairness. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision shall be made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness.

Fairness and sportsmanship and the logical extention of rule 803.05B (Obstacle between Lie and Hole) would dictate that you cannot ask another person to move an object for you.

If you ask someone to burn down your house/business, you are guilty of arson even if you didn't light the fire.

But what if you don't ask them, and they do it anyway.

An issue like this happened in a PGA tour event a few years ago ( a major I think). I don't remember who the golfer was or anything like that.

In golf, there is no such thing as a rule of verticality. You either hit it where it lie or you take an unplayable. Pretty much black and white.

Well this golfer hit a shot and it got stuck like 20 feet in the tree. When he got to his ball he joked that if someone from the gallery went up and got it down he could play it without a 2 stroke unplayable penalty. So this guy gets up the tree and knocks his ball down.

Sounds pretty much like the exact scenario Nick is refering to.

But what if you don't ask them, and they do it anyway.



The title of the thread is "Could you move this for me, please?"

To answer your question: I think if a general park user moved something, it would be ok. However, a person walking with your group should know they should not proceed ahead of the players. If they move something between your lie and the hole after your disc has landed, that would at least be a courtesy violation if not blatant cheating.

Is it legal to use your own hand to move stuff while throwing?
for instance, putting and with your off hand holding a branch down that was in the way of your throwing arm.

Is it legal to use your own hand to move stuff while throwing?
for instance, putting and with your off hand holding a branch down that was in the way of your throwing arm.



Not legal. This is clearly prohibited by 803.05(A).

Is it legal to use your own hand to move stuff while throwing?
for instance, putting and with your off hand holding a branch down that was in the way of your throwing arm.



www.readtherulebook.com (http://www.readtherulebook.com)

Where does it say in our rulebook that another player or spectator should not move obstacles to stance?



803.01F

Rule of Fairness. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision shall be made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness.

Fairness and sportsmanship and the logical extention of rule 803.05B (Obstacle between Lie and Hole) would dictate that you cannot ask another person to move an object for you.

If you ask someone to burn down your house/business, you are guilty of arson even if you didn't light the fire.



I agree with this interpretation.

Still, this could possibly be made clearer in the rule itself by using "no one" rather than "the thrower".

One other thing: If a player is permitted by the rules to move something fairly large but part of the way the hole plays, such as a large stone or log, shouldn't our rules include something to minimize the amount it is moved and possibly that the obstacle should be replaced where it was as best as possible after the throw is made?

the rules already state "least movement possible" when dealing with things moving or being moved....

do you want to cover EVERY possible scenario,like with casual rules(bees,not wasps,or sometimes yellowjackets,but never hornets---unless in a state that ends with a y on a day that starts with t)

lets just get people to READ and KNOW and CALL the rules we ALREADY have...then worry about rules we want to make up :p

We can't control the crowds, unless a player happens to yell "no, please don't move that!", which still doesn't keep a spectator/picnicer/ignorant bystander from doing it.

Still, this could possibly be made clearer in the rule itself by using "no one" rather than "the thrower".



The rule (803.05) actually says "player" and is very clear in that it empowers only the player to move such objects.

Still, this could possibly be made clearer in the rule itself by using "no one" rather than "the thrower".



The rule (803.05) actually says "player" and is very clear in that it empowers only the player to move such objects.



Where do you get "only"? Can you point it out in the rulebook?

Personally I agree with you Mike, it's just that the rulebook does not specifically say that "only" the player is allowed to move things.

I don't think we need rules that detail every possible situation, but we do need rules that make something like this not open to discussion.

I'll shoot a note off to the RC.

I got "only" from the fact that the only individual empowered by the rules to move objects is the player. And while there are certainly many players on the course during a round, I feel that in this context "player" means the person whose turn it is to shoot.

I'd be interested to find out what the RC says.

I believe there was a PGA event once where Tiger asked some spectators to help him move a boulder and it was all legal.

What obstacle are we talking about? Attached or loose?

You are correct according to my interpretation: The player may OBTAIN RELIEF from some obstacles mentioned in
803.05C. An attached branch may not be held onto by the thrower or anyone else.
In 803.05B, A PLAYER may move obstacles between the lie and the hole that became a factor during the round, such as spectators, players� equipment, open gates, or branches that fell during the round. Where it is not known if an obstacle has become a factor during a round, it shall not be moved. It is legal for a player�s throwing motion to make incidental movement of an obstacle.
A "player" is the key word here. In this instance the player might not be the one dealing with an obtacle to his/her throw, but to someone else's or something that interferes with the flow of spectators.
In case of a question, the majority rules.
Either way you get a ruling on the spot.

So, Nick, and this isn't a sarcastic question...if a spectator should walk out and move a branch, or a rock, or whatever, or pull a branch back UNSOLICITED what should be done? In the case of a attached, living branch, if the spectator is holding it, I can see the right thing would be to ask that it be released. But, say my drive has landed behind a rather bushy branch which fell off a tree, obviously not during the round. A spectator moves the branch before I am anywhere near the lie. What should happen?
(substitute your choice of obstacles here, including the attached, living branch.

steve

Is it legal to use your own hand to move stuff while throwing?
for instance, putting and with your off hand holding a branch down that was in the way of your throwing arm.



if it hasn't been figured out, the answer is NO. That's in the rulebook.

www.readtherulebook.com (http://www.readtherulebook.com)

if a spectator moves a branch that was at least partially in front of your lie before you can tell them they should not -- it seems to me the rule of fairness calls on you to ask them to replace it where it was (or if they have left you could do it yourself and letting group majority determine where the branch previously lay). if a spectator moves your disc the rules say it should be put back where it was...