I made the following post on another thread and have brought this topic up before and think it merits it's own thread. Basically, I think we need to have the procedures for seeking statements of clarification from the Rules Committee and steps to insure that players and td's everywhere are kept in the loop written into the next version of the rules.


There is an important topic in Alacrity's statement:

Quote:

Just to make sure there is not a quesiton the player should have the disc reviewed any time the disc is within 1 meter of the OB line. This by the way is not a matter of opinion it is a statement made by the rules committee many years ago




I believe that the rc made that statement and i believe that it's a solid rule of thumb. The problem is that the rulebook does not make any reference to a binding nature of rc statements, clarifications, findings, or whatever you want to call them. Even if it was stated as such, it's alot to expect players to learn the rulebook and memorize all previous statements the rc has ever made. We're lucky if players have ever
a) read the rulebook
b) carry one in their golf bags
and most importantly
c) pull it out and use it when there's a point of dispute.

I do think that there's room for a continual process of refinement of our rules, which includes periodic rc statements on rule interpretation. I also think that with each rules re-write the current rc statements should be incorporated into the revision of the text. After each re-write, the rc statements page should be wiped clean. All tournament directors should be required to download the most current rc statements page from pdga.com and include the statements in writing and/or orally at the player's meeting prior to the event.

In state code (law) books, under a given law, they usually have anotations concerning court rulings that clarify the finer points of the particular law. Since these Q & A entries are the equivalent of court rulings, the decisions could be noted in small text at the end of the rule.

113 page views and only 1 reply?

does that mean everyone thinks the rules are perfect the way they are?

should the rules committee make any statements on rules qustions as they arise? should they become part of the rules through a process by which everyone's made aware of them or should they be locked up in the basement of the vatican?

Its my understanding that the rule book for ball golf is a mighty thin volume. The documents regarding official rulings and interpretations, however, fill many hefty tomes. In our sport at least, these interpretations and standards should be readily available.

Tangentially, I'd like to begin to develop a visual standard for disc golf rules so that new officials/players can be more likely to be one the same page, so to speak.

For example, playing out of a bush. What you can and can't do, what stance is "legal" when doing so, or what stances are "illegal." Getting folks to have the same mindset in such circumstances would go a long way towards consistent interpretation and play. The easiest way to build consensus is through visual media.

I'd like to eventually create a video primer along these lines.

Somewhere down my TTD list is "contact rules committee about a video standard" but I've got a brick walkway to rebuild, a killer Tour De France to watch play out, and the British Open to savor.

Joe

My USGA rule book is twice as thick as my PDGA rule book. It reflects hundreds of years of refinement as opposed to 30 years.

We'll get there. :)

All tournament directors should be required to download the most current rc statements page from pdga.com and include the statements in writing and/or orally at the player's meeting prior to the event.



[/QUOTE]

1. So we as players should require the volunteer TD to do even more work, taking responsibility off us?

2. With some players not even going to the players meeting anyway *** and many carrying on their own conversations not paying attention even if they are standing there, a TD should extend the meeting orally teaching the rules? After course/event specific required info (OB's, Mando's, Special Conditions, CTP's etc.) many players are having attention span problems anyway and a rule discussion could greatly delay the tee off.

Since most players will not make a rules call anyway, especially being the person making the initial call, not just the second, expanding the players meeting for intricate / esoteric rule clarifications is a waste of everyones' time.

Since the individual players are making the call (if anyone does) they are ultimately responsible for knowing the rules.

One example:
***At an event I TD'd a couple of years ago or so I was summoned to make a call on a mando hole. When I got there I had to explain the condition l specifically covered in the players meeting. When I ask the two nationally known pros who needed the clarification why they didn't ask in the meeting, they both told me that they don't go to meetings because they need to warm up and not waste their time attending!!!

For example, playing out of a bush. What you can and can't do, what stance is "legal" when doing so, or what stances are "illegal." Getting folks to have the same mindset in such circumstances would go a long way towards consistent interpretation and play. The easiest way to build consensus is through visual media.

I'd like to eventually create a video primer along these lines.

Joe



Good idea.

A players meeting is not the place to teach the rules, especially to the pros.

John: You make good arguments against relying solely on oral methods to convey important tournament info. I think a lot slips through the cracks at players meetings. I'm a big fan of having all local conditions in writing and included in player's packages at check-in.

It is not a huge burden to have td's download the latest rc statements and include them in such a printed tournament rules sheet.

While you disagree with one suggested method of communicating the information, you don't suggest a better one. Where should the information be available? How should it be organized? It sounds like you're saying that thousands of players should be responsible for memorizing rules clarifications that don't exist in writing and may have been posted once a long time ago on a discussion board thread that 15 people read.

I do like the suggestion of including points of clarification in small print below each rule in future editions of the rules. Do we have to wait up to a year to have those decisions incorporated into the rules or do we have to devise a delivery system for that information in the interim?

Denny
I agree that it is not a huge burden for the TD to download and pay to have printed but it is just one more thing that he/she has to do. I do put the responsibility on the player, especially the pro players, to keep up with the rules. If that means 1000, 10,000 individuals have to take personal responsibility instead of assigning it to a TD, I can sleep OK with that. And since not all rulings are common across courses, the inside or outside of OB line for instance, providing all the new interpretations may just be cumbersome come tee time.

I absolutely agree that local conditions need to be posted or printed for participants.

I also agree that interpretations related to previous editions of the rule book should be restated and if necessary tweaked, for each revision. All previous interpretations being disregarded.

Since the PDGA seems to prefer the internet for most of their communication with the players maybe there should be a twice yearly (quarterly at most) rules update/clarification date at which new interpretations would come into effect. Have it available to everyone well before implementation date. If it was available through the Updates area of the PDGA home page then everyone would have ready access, not just through a print out supplied to TD's to be reproduced for event players, or not through a place that �may have been posted once a long time ago on a discussion board thread that 15 people read� [and are not part of the rules committee anyway].

Disc_Golf_Live �s (membership not current?) idea of a video may be too ambitious, but a Power Point presentation may be easier to do and I would bet that a page or two [maybe a rules series] in Disc Golf World (News) with pictures showing stance and other common infractions would be most helpful and relatively easy to do. I would be glad to help with that article.

The other point is that most folks won�t make a call anyway.

One anecdote, I was playing in a large event in Huntsville many years ago. On one temp hole at Redstone a player in my group threw a long up � putt that bounced off the rim. Since I had not seen anyone even close to making that deuce I said �Oh man, too bad� , he turned and ran over to me red faced ready to fight and calling me every name in the book, I turned to another person in my group, a member of the then current PDGA Board of Directors saying to him �that�s got to be a courtesy violation or something�, he replied �I see him much more than you and I�m not making any call against him�. You can imagine how the rest of the round went, really pleasant golfing ... not.

Just one example but if that Board Member won�t apply the rules, the rank & file probably won�t either.

I also agree that interpretations related to previous editions of the rule book should be restated and if necessary tweaked, for each revision. All previous interpretations being disregarded.

Since the PDGA seems to prefer the internet for most of their communication with the players maybe there should be a twice yearly (quarterly at most) rules update/clarification date at which new interpretations would come into effect. Have it available to everyone well before implementation date. If it was available through the Updates area of the PDGA home page then everyone would have ready access



I agree that the website is great for getting this info to the players.

On that unfortunate instance of a BOD member refusing to call a player on a courtesy violation because they know the person, I'd have to publicly call for that person to step down from the board if I witnessed such an incident :(

As I asked last week here (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=567953&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) and didn't get a response, I can only assume it doesn't exist, so at the very least there should be a printable version of the rules FAQ.

As I asked last week here (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=567953&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) and didn't get a response, I can only assume it doesn't exist, so at the very least there should be a printable version of the rules FAQ.

Go to the Home page. Look in the right hand column of links. It is toward the bottom of that column. Now that I've told you where to find it, here's a short cut: Printable Rules (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2006/PDGA.2006.rulebook.final.pdf)

Go to the Home page. Look in the right hand column of links. It is toward the bottom of that column. Now that I've told you where to find it, here's a short cut: Printable Rules (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2006/PDGA.2006.rulebook.final.pdf)



Not the Rule book, the rules FAQ or Q&A or whatever you want to call it. The clarifications section that is available in non-printable form here (http://www.pdga.com/rules/qa.php)

2. With some players not even going to the players meeting anyway *** and many carrying on their own conversations not paying attention even if they are standing there, a TD should extend the meeting orally teaching the rules? After course/event specific required info (OB's, Mando's, Special Conditions, CTP's etc.) many players are having attention span problems anyway and a rule discussion could greatly delay the tee off.

One example:
***At an event I TD'd a couple of years ago or so I was summoned to make a call on a mando hole. When I got there I had to explain the condition l specifically covered in the players meeting. When I ask the two nationally known pros who needed the clarification why they didn't ask in the meeting, they both told me that they don't go to meetings because they need to warm up and not waste their time attending!!!


I AM NOT AN OFFICIAL . I agree with you that this is not necessary at the players' meeting, but:
Attendance at the players' meeting is now mandatory according to the latest publicaion of the rules. 801.04 A It is the responsibility of the player to play the course correctly. Before play begins, players shall attend the players� meeting and ask about any special conditions that may exist on the course, including extra holes, alternate teeing areas, alternate hole placements, out-of-bounds areas, and mandatories.
It bears noting, however, that there is no penalty for not attending.


And since not all rulings are common across courses, the inside or outside of OB line for instance, providing all the new interpretations may just be cumbersome come tee time.

I absolutely agree that local conditions need to be posted or printed for participants.


Again, with the new rules, the OB line itself is out of bounds. It doesn't matter if the OB line is a sidewalk one meter wide or a 1 cm piece of string, if your disc is surrounded by OB (in these cases, on the sidewalk or touching the string on the OB side), then the disc is OB. 803.09 A A disc shall be considered out-of-bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area. A disc thrown in water shall be deemed to be at rest once it is floating or is moving only by the action of the water or the wind on the water. See section 803.03 F. The out-of-bounds line itself is considered out-of-bounds. In order to consider the disc as out-of-bounds, there must be reasonable evidence that the disc came to rest within the out-of-bounds area. In the absence of such evidence, the disc will be considered lost and the player will proceed according to rule 803.11B.


Since the PDGA seems to prefer the internet for most of their communication with the players maybe there should be a twice yearly (quarterly at most) rules update/clarification date at which new interpretations would come into effect. Have it available to everyone well before implementation date.


As far as I understand it from speaking to officials (I am not an official), the "current" rules actually aren't in effect until they make all of the officials get recertified with the new rules (e.g., take a new or at least "renewal" test). I have encountered a few officials who are not familiar with the newer rules. The most annoying example was someone who did not know of the rethrow for a foot fault, and thought it was just a warning and then 1 stroke penalty. Perhaps the implementation date of new rules is a question that should be posed to the RC, as none of the officials who were certified before our most recent version of rules has been required to retest for the new rules.

Hi ,

I'm a Official and carry a copy of the 2006 rules with me during play. Sometimes there are wild circumstances that come into play that are not mentioned , like people picnicing ,Squirrels, Deer , Racoons,Horses, Hippies, Elk and Cows grazing , feeding or just passing through. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I always attend the players meeting to hear Additional course rules addressed by the TD.
If not mentioned , I'll ask if any specific circumstances will be added to the course play , like certain OB's, spotters, amount of time for lunch , start of next round , time of players meeting next day ....etc.

[/QUOTE]
As far as I understand it from speaking to officials (I am not an official), the "current" rules actually aren't in effect until they make all of the officials get recertified with the new rules (e.g., take a new or at least "renewal" test). I have encountered a few officials who are not familiar with the newer rules. The most annoying example was someone who did not know of the rethrow for a foot fault, and thought it was just a warning and then 1 stroke penalty. Perhaps the implementation date of new rules is a question that should be posed to the RC, as none of the officials who were certified before our most recent version of rules has been required to retest for the new rules.

[/QUOTE]


BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

the "officials" you spoke with need to have their cards yanked if they are telling people that.....

if you have stayed as a current renewing EVERY YEAR pdga official you DO NOT have to be retested yet(which i don't agree with as there have been 2 rules books printed and LOTS of "policies" made since 1997) but is the way it is...

if you lapse your membership as an official for even one year YOU MUST retake the exam before you can be a certified offical again....

any information on this is readily obtained from pdga headquarters just by asking...which is certainly better than someone playing by 1997 rules since "everyone isn't certified with the new rules" :p

keith

You do not need to know the rules to become an official. It is an untimed open book test, so all you need to be able to do is read.

If it was a timed test with a closed book, that would ensure tat officials really knew the rules. And, it would force the PDGA to not have officials as TDs and marshalls since there would be probably 1/10th the number of officials.

Thanks for clearing that up, Keith. The official I was speaking about also decided that she could be an official in our group, and did some other things that annoyed the beejebus out of me and made me feel I couldn't take her word as an "official". For example, I called her out on a foot fault (actually just asked where her lie was when she was in a straddle putt position because I was on the other side of the wooded fairway) and then heard her griping to another group member that she was absolutely the last person anybody should ever call a foot fault on because blah blah blah.

Quickdisc- the point of local rules still holds true. Here in CO the 2-meter rule is pretty much always in effect, whereas in NC, where we used to live, it almost never was. I am a big proponent of the course map with clearly marked tees and baskets, OB, water hazards, etc., which are all very much course specific. The point was that a lot of the rules don't have much flexibility, and the example of the OB line being in or out was a moot point with the new rules. I always attend the players' meeting and TRY to listen, but with all of the jibber-jabbering that usually goes on, I'm lucky if I can catch all of it. This is especially irking at courses that I'm not entirely familiar with where the TD goes hole by hole explainging OB, mandos, and other special circumstances for each hole, because by the time I get to that hole in play, I've already forgotten it (thus being a huge proponent of course maps!). I wish everyone would take the meeting more seriously, but this is where we stand right now.

I decided a little while ago that I'd like to become an official, but I haven't yet requested the test because life and grad school keep getting in the way of my fun! BOOO.

:D Very true what you said about trying to hear everything mentioned at the players meeting.
Course maps help out alot with playing the course , especially new courses.

:DI'm still laughing at your true statement "with all of the jibber-jabbering that usually goes on, I'm lucky if I can catch all of it." I think some deliberately don't pay attention at all !!!

But this thing about that , so called , Official , throwing her weight around about the rules , is not cool. Sounds like a fake power trip or something. I'm sorry you had to deal with that during play. :(
You can let someone know the rules , but to ride them during play is a courtesy violation. She's lucky you didn't smack her one !!!! :eek: ;)

Thanks for clearing that up, Keith.



i'm always happy to help...

especially someone who is friends with my friends(mitch)....

hope to see mitch again at usdgc

Thanks for clearing that up, Keith.



i'm always happy to help...

especially someone who is friends with my friends(mitch)....

hope to see mitch again at usdgc


Mitch has already said that even if he qualifies he will not be playing USDGC this year. He was back east for LiCkAtHoN (most fun event of the year, hands down, according to Mitch), and will be back for MSDGC and Paw Paw. All of that vacation time and expense of travelling made him decide to skip USDGC this year. Hopefully next year!