Player A's disc may/may not be out of bounds. He and his disc are not in plain site of the rest of the players on the card (opposite side of tree, or some other obstruction).

After Player A throws his disc, the group takes issue with whether the disc had been inbounds.

Is 803.09D the only place this is addressed...references 803.09B 803.09B(1) for consequences?

If so, does this mean that Player A is assessed a single penalty stroke and rethrows from an approximate lie determined by the majority of the group?

The rule seems less than decisive to me.

Thanks,

Scott

If you get to the lie and it is OB, you take a 1 stroke penalty and play it 1 meter in from where it went out.

Agreed.

But question is, what is the ruling when the person plays as if not OB (whether actually OB or not is not relevant in this question) then the group, upon reaching the spot the player threw from, takes issue with whether the disc had been out of bounds?

Easy.....


803.09D. If the in-bounds status of a disc is uncertain, either a majority of the group or an official shall make the determination. <font color="red">If the thrower moves the disc before a determination has been made, the disc shall be considered out-of-bounds, and he or she shall proceed in accordance with 803.09 B counting all throws made prior to the determination of the in-bounds status of the original lie.</font> If a player other than the thrower moves the disc before a determination has been made, the disc shall be considered in-bounds, and play for the thrower and the mover of the disc shall proceed under the rules of interference, 803.07 B and C.



1 throw for the throw BEFORE determination is made
+1 throw for OB penalty

Another rule that describes this:


(4) Out-Of-Bounds Play: Playing an out-of-bounds disc as if it were in-bounds. If the misplay is discovered after the throw from out-of-bounds, but before a subsequent throw has been made, the player shall throw from the correct lie and treat the throw from out-of-bounds as a practice throw (one throw added to the player�s score). If the misplay is discovered after a subsequent throw, the player shall proceed to complete the hole and receive a two-throw penalty for the misplay.

If the player was sure their disc was inbounds and it wasn't at all a judgment call, then they cannot be stroked. If however, when pressed, the player says, "I'm not sure, it was pretty close" then the player should be penalized. I'd also say that, if the other players had said, "hey, that looks like it may be OB, let us take a look at your lie before you mark your disc" and the player had not allowed them to do so, the player should be penalized.

But, calling into question the integrity of the player on a spot that they thought was without doubt in bounds would be like calling a stance violation on someone 100 ft. away crouched under a tree, blocked from view by some bushes.

The best scenario would be if either the player or a competitor would say, "that might be close, let's take a look together".

I don't think the player's level of certainty comes into play according to the rules. Anytime you are close enough to OB that the status of the disc may be a question (within 10' or so and not clearly visible) make sure someone else agrees that you are inbounds before marking or moving your disc.

I normally ask for confirmation on all discs that are not clearly visible as inbounds from the fairway, and put myself in a position to easily confirm for others if they have a lie that is remotely questionable.

Without anyone having established an "uncertain" status of a disc by vocalizing their concern, if the player is the only one to look at the lie and they are certain that the disc is in bounds, then it's in bounds. There is no uncertainty until someone expresses it verbally. If the other players believe that the status of the disc is uncertain then they need to express that out loud and go and look with the player. Once the disc was thrown without having any previously expressed uncertainty by any of the players in the group then it's a done deal.

The game of golf, whether played with discs or otherwise, is one of personal integrity. If you happen to be playing with someone who you think might accuse you of cheating after the fact without any proof then I'd recommend that you have them come check out every single lie you have.

Even if the player was certain his disc was inbounds, he should call the group over to look before marking and throwing so as to dispell any chance that the group thinks the disc may be OB. There is nothing in that rule that says the group has to question the status of the potentially OB disc before the player approaches or makes his throw. The burden is on the player, not the group.

In this example, the group clearly thought it was OB after finally reaching the lie. Since the player had marked and thrown before the group could verify the lie, the group has every right to stroke the player for playing the disc before an OB determination had been made.

Again, to avoid the appearance of impropriety, the player should have called the group over. The group is not calling the player's integrity into question, only his judgement as to whether the disc was OB or not. In this example, when the group finally made it to the "lie" they thought it was OB.

If a player doesn't have the group come and make a ruling, they could simply run ahead to the "maybe" OB lie and mark it before group says anything or comes close and make the throw "because they truly "believed" it was in bounds, so it MUST be IB." The rule appears to have been designed to prevent just this scenario. The group doesn't have to say, "Hey wait before you throw so we can check if it is OB", the player should automatically wait for the group to avoid a potential penalty stroke.

While I would normally give benefit of the doubt to a player, in this case, the rules prevail. Again, I don't question the player's integrity. If the player is so worthy of my turst, they can call the group over and prove it. I agree that the group should never let a player go to a lie close to OB without observing the lie. I personally always like to check. Conversely, I will call my group over if I have a lie that is close to OB, just to prevent this from happening.

Shouldn't any player wait to mark any lie, to ensure that the marking of the lie is done so in a legal fashion? Even if the disc was in the fairway, the player should wait for the group and then mark the lie so the group can watch he/she do so.

Shouldn't any player wait to mark any lie, to ensure that the marking of the lie is done so in a legal fashion? Even if the disc was in the fairway, the player should wait for the group and then mark the lie so the group can watch he/she do so.




You are correct, sir!!!

Just to make sure there is not a quesiton the player should have the disc reviewed any time the disc is within 1 meter of the OB line. This by the way is not a matter of opinion it is a statement made by the rules committee many years ago.


Without anyone having established an "uncertain" status of a disc by vocalizing their concern, if the player is the only one to look at the lie and they are certain that the disc is in bounds, then it's in bounds. There is no uncertainty until someone expresses it verbally. If the other players believe that the status of the disc is uncertain then they need to express that out loud and go and look with the player. Once the disc was thrown without having any previously expressed uncertainty by any of the players in the group then it's a done deal.

The game of golf, whether played with discs or otherwise, is one of personal integrity. If you happen to be playing with someone who you think might accuse you of cheating after the fact without any proof then I'd recommend that you have them come check out every single lie you have.

How I handle the situation:

Anytime it looks like my disc would be close to OB, I always tell the group my ruling (OB/IB) and ask "Could y'all come over and confirm this?" Anytime it is in complete doubt, I say "Y'all need to rule on this."

Quick, simple, and it covers both me and the group. Usually someone will wander over to confirm, but occasionally I get the "[Your ruling is] good" and we go on.

My take on this is that the group needed to take issue as to whether the disc is inbounds or not before the person throws. Unless the person ran up and quickly threw before someone else could get there, why was this an issue at all? Was the rest of the group standing around in oblivion until someone woke up after the fact and said, "Hey, was that out of bounds?" Come on, how can a group not have been part of this situation until after the fact?

I would say that that the player's judgement would have to be considered correct. After all, this was the only person who took the time to determine the status of the lie. The group ought to pull their head's out and get involved next time if they feel there is an issue.

It is quite possilble the others in the group were looking for their discs or a lost disc, but that is neither here nor there. It is the players responsibility to follow the rules and the rules state .... if the player moves the disc before a determination can be made, the disc shall be considered out-of-bounds.


My take on this is that the group needed to take issue as to whether the disc is inbounds or not before the person throws. Unless the person ran up and quickly threw before someone else could get there, why was this an issue at all? Was the rest of the group standing around in oblivion until someone woke up after the fact and said, "Hey, was that out of bounds?" Come on, how can a group not have been part of this situation until after the fact?

I would say that that the player's judgement would have to be considered correct. After all, this was the only person who took the time to determine the status of the lie. The group ought to pull their head's out and get involved next time if they feel there is an issue.

Alacrity, that is how I interpret the rule as well...just seems odd though.

It's consistent with the disc above the playing surface rule. If the disc is moved by the thrower before it's status is verified by the group, the ruling goes against the thrower.
If another player moves the disc, the ruling goes in the favor of the thrower.

Alacrity, that is how I interpret the rule as well...just seems odd though.



What? That someone would throw a disc before its OB status is verified? I've seen it happen all the time. It's my first clue that the disc was OB.

There is an important topic in Alacrity's statement:

Just to make sure there is not a quesiton the player should have the disc reviewed any time the disc is within 1 meter of the OB line. This by the way is not a matter of opinion it is a statement made by the rules committee many years ago



I believe that the rc made that statement and i believe that it's a solid rule of thumb. The problem is that the rulebook does not make any reference to a binding nature of rc statements, clarifications, findings, or whatever you want to call them. Even if it was stated as such, it's alot to expect players to learn the rulebook and memorize all previous statements the rc has ever made. We're lucky if players have ever
a) read the rulebook
b) carry one in their golf bags
and most importantly
c) pull it out and use it when there's a point of dispute.

I do think that there's room for a continual process of refinement of our rules, which includes periodic rc statements on rule interpretation. I do think with each rules re-write the current rc statements should be incorporated into the revision of the text. After each re-write, the rc statements page should be wiped clean. All tournament directors should be required to download the most current rc statements page from pdga.com and include the statements in writing and/or orally at the player's meeting prior to the event.

Getting back to the facts at hand--why didn't anyone question the lie BEFORE the shot was made (the shot which may have been from OB)? As easy as it is to imagine someone not calling the OB on him/herself, it's just as easy to imagine an after-the-throw call made for punitive reasons, like a terrific upshot from the now-suddenly-questionable lie.
The 803.09D clause would seem to apply more where there has been a question raised BEFORE the subsequent throw, and the player made the next throw anyway.

The rule seems to come into play most often when one player reaches their lie and throws before any other players have a chance or bother to come over and look at the lie. I always ask for an opinion when OB is nearby even if it is obvious from where I'm standing. All you need is for someone else on the card to verify the status.

Reply not meant to gnduke in particular.

Given that everyone is watching everyone's throw, given that everyone has seen all throws and are walking down the fairway together, and given that the farthest person out is throwing first with all people behind him/her watching the throw (all pretty much implied or covered in the rules), having a question of OB after the fact is impossible unless the rest of the group just plain didn't bother or someone obviously cheated by running ahead and throwing before others got there. Once again, this sounds like a case of a group that needed to pull their heads out. Be involved with the group's play like the rules imply. If the thrower has to beg someone to come over to verify the status of the lie, then there is something fundamentally wrong here.

How about other violations such as stance or the like. Anyone out there think this group was paying any attention to make sure these rules were being followed?

"Hey dude, I'm not sure but we're all too involved in our own games to watch you throw, so I guess we have to call the shot in question illegal after the fact. Why didn't you like beg us to get involved?"

Pull your heads out and be part of the group and you won't have such problems.

although the phrasing of the point is a bit...different...
:eek: that's my point exactly. Denny said it earlier too...if there's not enough concern about it BEFORE the subsequent throw that someone calls it, there can't ethically be any complaints AFTER the subsequent throw. All it would take is someone saying "oh man, I wonder if that stayed in ?" right after the throw...that should be enough to spur at least one additional player to go look. If no one does, well...you're at the honor of the thrower.

MAY S/HE ROT IN HELL IF S/HE LIES ABOUT IT!!! :eek: :eek: :D:D