As disc technology has changed in the last 5 years, I've gone with it. The first wider winged discs came out (approx 17-18 mm wing) and I went there, and then the wider wings came out (19-20 mm) and now we are seeing 21-22 mm wings.

At the same time that the new technology was developing I was really getting my throws down, increasing my accuracy and distance. However, I've had a slight epiphany; about the time that I was learning the latest discs, the Wraith and the Surge, I realized that neither fit in my hand as well as I would like. They just didn't feel comfortable. I have now taken a step back. I've gone back to my Valk and my Wildcat and I purchased a couple of Vikings and got out my Firebirds and the new Avenger. All of these discs have wings that are 19mm or smaller. I find that they are more comfortable and that I have more control.

Part of the issue is that I have reasonably short fingers. I should point out that initially, I gave up a little distance but as I worked with these discs, I got my distance back and a whole lot more accuracy, mainly because I have fewer errant throws. Keep in mind that while these are last years discs, they are all still very fast long range drivers and all fly extremely well.

If you think about all the things that effect your throw, the fewer that you have to work at, the better. If any part of your throw isn't comfortable, you're hurting your game. Take a step back, go through your throw, is every part comfortable? Is there anything that throws off your smooth delivery? If so, think about alternatives, you never know what might do the trick.

Just renaming the thread.

I get a better grip on the wider rims than I do on the smaller rims. My hand measures 8 inches from top of middle finger to the wrist/palm line. I know that these are not little kid hands by any standard, but not what I see as being large.

With these wider rims, I am able to grip down alot tighter, enough so that I now have a callous on the palm of my hand where the disc rests. This was something that I did not experience with orcs/beasts/valks/firebirds. Wraiths and Tee-Rexs may just require you to adapt your grip somewhat. I use a modified power grip and these wider discs actually helped me get more snap on the discs.

I started playing disc golf just as the Orc was released. It was my first driver along with a Valk. I currently carry many different types or discs in my bag with varying wing widths. XL/TeeBird/Predator, Beast/Avenger, and the Surge/TeeRex.

I have never had a problem with comfort between wing widths with the discs I throw. There are a few discs I have thrown which I did not like the depth of... but they are not in my bag. I imagine that the problem that Lyle is talking about is more of an issue with players who have been playing since before the era of ultra long range drivers, and not with players who have started playing in the last three years.

Now, while I have no problems with comfort with these wider rimmed discs, I do not use them for accuracy. The Surge and the TeeRex I use for pure distance only where accuracy is not particularly needed. If I need to have big distance off the tee box with accuracy I will use the Beast or the Avenger. This is only because since they are slower discs in comparison, granted you can get big D with the Surge/Wraith/TeeRex, but you can also get into big trouble too.

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I have never had a problem with comfort between wing widths with the discs I throw. There are a few discs I have thrown which I did not like the depth of... but they are not in my bag. I imagine that the problem that Lyle is talking about is more of an issue with players who have been playing since before the era of ultra long range drivers, and not with players who have started playing in the last three years.

Now, while I have no problems with comfort with these wider rimmed discs, I do not use them for accuracy. The Surge and the TeeRex I use for pure distance only where accuracy is not particularly needed. If I need to have big distance off the tee box with accuracy I will use the Beast or the Avenger. This is only because since they are slower discs in comparison, granted you can get big D with the Surge/Wraith/TeeRex, but you can also get into big trouble too.


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I am right there with you 2putt. Only the depth of the rim effects my comfort with it. I use a power grip with all my drivers (Teebird, Starfire, Wraith, Firebird) excluding forehands I use a 2 finger split. I use the Teebird for most drives 350+. For drives below I use Roc's up to 350 for consistancy and accuracy and Starfire's and Wraith's for crush drives (hyzer flip, anhyzer and hyzers). As far as switching between them and comfort with them, I have no issues.

When my throwing aim is on, I do not have any issues with the Tee-Rex or Wraith. In fact, I have hit more birdies sidearming these discs, then backhanding, just because I can aim easier with a sidearm shot. When I am on with my backhand, watch out. I keep hitting chains with tee-rexs and wraiths and I will have an ace soon enough. In a game of inches, that one inch off kilter at release sets you on average 33.33 feet off target at 400 feet. Even being that one inch off is the difference between hitting that ace, or being O.B. or in hazard trouble. Just think next time your sitting at jump putt range attempting birdie. You could have hit an ace.

this is something i've talked about for a while.

my hands measure a whopping 7" from base of the palm to the tip of the middle finger with my index finger at 2 5/8" long so any disc wider than 19mm tends to give me problems and requires some grip modifications.

what i have found from working with players and with discs in general are that wider discs tend to give a false sense of grip strength in that they give a little more control in the hand when the disc is at rest. that is, it will feel easier to hold a disc in place with a wraith vs. a roc.

however, when it comes to power during the throw, especially when it comes to transferring finish power through the rip, it is an entirely different means of contact and strength that is required at that point.

what i have found almost across the board, is that while narrower discs may feel like the grip is less strong pre-throw, during the actual throw, you can always have a stronger rip point with a narrower disc than a wider disc, regardless of a player's hand-size.

while the majority of players have hands large enough to get a good grip on wider discs, oddly enough it is most commonly narrower/deeper discs that people tend to have complaints about. these generally are the discs that give the most potential rip strength, but they also expose the most flaws when it comes to form, timing, etc.

For me I've found the wider rimmed discs (Flash/Wraith) can/tend to fly farther - but I lose consistency as well as knowing (just after the hit) if I had a good throw.

How about rim depth...as in >>> the Talon has a shallow rim depth and I don't care for it as much as a deeper rimmed driver. Starfires and Surges have a great combination of rim depth/width...I find them both inspiring 'in the hand'!

This is pretty much why I still throw Teebird/Eagle/Firebird. Wide rimmed discs, beginning with the Beast, never felt right. Liked the Starfire, but never got completely comfortable with it. The Surge, OTOH, seems to fit very well in my hand and has become my distance disc--odd, for me and a wide rimmed driver.

It is very interesting how these things can play out. Of all the newer discs (those that are fast enough to be considered a 10 or 11, including some of the faster Gateway and Discraft stuff) none really has a narrow wing, that is, a rim smaller than 20 mm.

I posted on the ask Dave Dunipace thread, asking if he thought it was possible to make a high speed disc with a narrower wing and he replied that it was possible but "tricky" (my term).

Within a day I had an interesting post from one of the guys at Millenium telling me that just such a disc was available. He claimed the new Orions, the LS and the LF were very fast and might fit the ticket.

I asked him some questions and what I got back was that the LS could be compared to a wicked fast Valk and the LF to a long fast Firebird.

After another round of questions I went and picked up an LS. I don't often rant about discs but this disc is what Millenium claims it is.

In my hands it is just a tad more stable than the Valk and it is certainly longer. Their claim is that it is very straight, and for me it is. If you're looking for a Wraith with a narrower wing, try one, it's the best investment you'll make for long straight drives.

the Orion LF is awesome. in my opinion its a more stable version of the LS. its super consistent and awesome in the wind. i don't know about it being firebird like, definitly not as overstable. i used a ruler and it looks like the rim is around 19mm.

the Orion LF is awesome. in my opinion its a more stable version of the LS. its super consistent and awesome in the wind. i don't know about it being firebird like, definitly not as overstable. i used a ruler and it looks like the rim is around 19mm.



The new Orion LF (Sirius) is the only non-Innova disc in my bag. I bought it as an experiment and it stuck. I don't have a big arm so I throw an S shot and it out distances my Sidewinder and my Star Valk.

And....to kinda go back thru this thread somewhere....my glove distance (wrist/palm to tip of middle finger) is just over 6.5 inches. My 12 year old has bigger hands than I do :D