I am not a TD but I was looking in the newest issue of DGW and a B tier had 50 open players and 70 advanced how does the winner in open only get just over $500.

James,

I don't know what the entry fee was, but if you assume $65 and DON"T remove trophy costs then with about $500 cash added $500 is pretty much correct. If you take out the cost of trophy, then the TD added over twice the required added cash requirement. The payout tables are very flat for amateur divisions and flatter for the open divisions. Also at $500, assuming $65 that is around 8 times the entry fee.


I am not a TD but I was looking in the newest issue of DGW and a B tier had 50 open players and 70 advanced how does the winner in open only get just over $500.

like I said Im not a TD but when we have more players at a tourny this year then we did last year and the winner gets less money and the winner at a B tier that had 50 plus in open shouldnt something be done to regulat a certian percentage to be payed out.

P.S. Have u have any HOEGARDEN since I let you have one cause it is the best beer ever made.

It is regulated by the payout tables. The difference is in added money. I have not seen that beer anywhere else, by the way.


like I said Im not a TD but when we have more players at a tourny this year then we did last year and the winner gets less money and the winner at a B tier that had 50 plus in open shouldnt something be done to regulat a certian percentage to be payed out.

P.S. Have u have any HOEGARDEN since I let you have one cause it is the best beer ever made.

The beer should be at most liquor stores, I know all of them here have them.

I am not a TD but I was looking in the newest issue of DGW and a B tier had 50 open players and 70 advanced how does the winner in open only get just over $500.

The payout table does not put as much money at the top this year and it puts more money at the bottom. Probably the payout came straight off the payout table but it is hard to figure without knowing the entry fees and the number in the division. Some TDs take a look at the payout calculated by the payout table and then tweak their payouts a little. Others just go by the table.

People have an unrealistic expectation of how much a player should earn for first place based on the number of players entered. At least two more players get paid out for every 5 more players in the division. So first place doesn't increase much with more players unless the event has added cash. Here's the proposed payout for 50 pros with a $60 base entry fee and paying 40%:
<table border="1"><tr><td> .</td><td>Proposed
</td></tr><tr><td>Place</td><td>Payout $$
</td></tr><tr><td>1 </td><td>$495
</td></tr><tr><td>2 </td><td>$354
</td></tr><tr><td>3 </td><td>$267
</td></tr><tr><td>4 </td><td>$228
</td></tr><tr><td>5 </td><td>$192
</td></tr><tr><td>6 </td><td>$162
</td></tr><tr><td>7 </td><td>$147
</td></tr><tr><td>8 </td><td>$135
</td></tr><tr><td>9 </td><td>$123
</td></tr><tr><td>10 </td><td>$111
</td></tr><tr><td>11 </td><td>$102
</td></tr><tr><td>12 </td><td>$93
</td></tr><tr><td>13 </td><td>$87
</td></tr><tr><td>14 </td><td>$81
</td></tr><tr><td>15 </td><td>$78
</td></tr><tr><td>16 </td><td>$75
</td></tr><tr><td>17 </td><td>$72
</td></tr><tr><td>18 </td><td>$69
</td></tr><tr><td>19 </td><td>$66
</td></tr><tr><td>20 </td><td>$63
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>

Here it is with only 36 players. First place hardly changes at all without added cash.

<table border="1"><tr><td> .</td><td>Proposed</td><td>Round
</td></tr><tr><td>Place</td><td>Payout $$</td><td>to $5
</td></tr><tr><td>1 </td><td>$486 </td><td>$485
</td></tr><tr><td>2 </td><td>$324 </td><td>$325
</td></tr><tr><td>3 </td><td>$238 </td><td>$240
</td></tr><tr><td>4 </td><td>$184 </td><td>$185
</td></tr><tr><td>5 </td><td>$153 </td><td>$155
</td></tr><tr><td>6 </td><td>$130 </td><td>$130
</td></tr><tr><td>7 </td><td>$112 </td><td>$110
</td></tr><tr><td>8 </td><td>$99 </td><td>$100
</td></tr><tr><td>9 </td><td>$91 </td><td>$90
</td></tr><tr><td>10 </td><td>$82 </td><td>$80
</td></tr><tr><td>11 </td><td>$73 </td><td>$75
</td></tr><tr><td>12 </td><td>$67 </td><td>$65
</td></tr><tr><td>13 </td><td>$63 </td><td>$65
</td></tr><tr><td>14 </td><td>$58 </td><td>$60
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>

I am having this problem back home here .
NOW earlier in the year I assisted TD at a tourney and I paid out too much to the winner and second place ( basically used an old payout table )
I just ran a non pdga event and the winner of the pro division was upset that the payout was soooo flat .
NOW being a non pdga tourney I did flatten it out to top HALF and really flattened out the payout between players who were in the top half but ....

Basically I did notice a basic calculation from the pdga tables
The amount of people who get paid out in a pro division has gone from about 1/3 to about 40% MINIMUM to a max of about 45 % ( now this is for a PDGA event )
The first place person used to get paid way back a few years ago about 45% of the total purse , now it is all the way down to about 30 % of the total purse .

oh well my idea went to hell on that last calc by Chuck
I guess the lower attended the event the more % of the money the top pro gets
I think that is what chuck is trying to point out also other then what he shows there
Basically however the point is that the PDGA has gone to a FATTER % of players PAYED OUT and a FLATTER PAYOUT To those who won .

The payout calculator built into this years PDGA electronic TD report lets you pick 40%, 45%, or 50% for how deep you want to pay each pro division. I think it defaults to 45%.

33% isn't an option.

I did not know that you could go to 50% , but that is GOOD . Not only cause it means the PDGA is oking a top half payout in pro divisions but personnally defends the non pdga tourney payout we had last weekend .
I was not trying to say that the 33% was an option ( it was the norm in years gone by )

I wonder who drived the equations to do that and extended the payout out to 200th place? ;)


The payout calculator built into this years PDGA electronic TD report lets you pick 40%, 45%, or 50% for how deep you want to pay each pro division. I think it defaults to 45%.

33% isn't an option.

WAIT A MINUTE!
If it is a PDGA event you CAN NOT payout %33.
I run plenty events and will payout the ams flat......BUT the PROs should get paid......

If you have a ton of added case, the Pros will get paid. :D

I prefer 33% pay depth in all divisions. Not to make 1st place pay out a huge sum, but because cashing or merching means more. I've said this before, but if last merch is half a mini, winning that half a mini means you beat 2/3s of the field and IMO that means something in itself regardless of the value of the merch.

With the 50% or more payout depth, last merch means you finished in the middle of the pack. Big whoop.

But that's where we are because huge Am fields were making the top payout spots ridiculously big in the steep-curve top-third payouts.


It's different for pros in tourneys with added cash. With the steep payout curve at the top, the same 10 guys always go home with 80% of the cash every single tourney. Paying flatter and deeper spreads the wealth. And like Gary says, if you have a lot of added cash the top guys still get paid well.

You can always play outside North America where their Pro percentage choices in the TD report are 25%, 33% and 40%.

Is that still non-profit or has that changed for International ?

I prefer 33% pay depth in all divisions. Not to make 1st place pay out a huge sum, but because cashing or merching means more. I've said this before, but if last merch is half a mini, winning that half a mini means you beat 2/3s of the field and IMO that means something in itself regardless of the value of the merch.

With the 50% or more payout depth, last merch means you finished in the middle of the pack. Big whoop.

But that's where we are because huge Am fields were making the top payout spots ridiculously big in the steep-curve top-third payouts.


It's different for pros in tourneys with added cash. With the steep payout curve at the top, the same 10 guys always go home with 80% of the cash every single tourney. Paying flatter and deeper spreads the wealth. And like Gary says, if you have a lot of added cash the top guys still get paid well.



I play for profit. Why is PDGA still Non-profit ?
Corporate Sponsors are for Advertising / Promotional / Business Profit.

So my losses for 30 + years is WAY more than my total earnings.
I should be able to write off $4,000.00 to $9,000.00 per year then for Expenses , just to play in the Pro divisions. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I don't know about the new payout system, it pays a little too deep, and I don't like the fact that some places get payed the same amount of money. if somone beats you, I think they deserve a little more money...right?

it's terrible!!

When I do payouts, I break those ties. If the chart goes 34, 34, 30, 30, I'll go 35, 33, 31, 29. I'm not sure what Jon does on his day to do payouts.

I think its funny if you beat someone by four throws and get the same amount, but the guy who beat you by one gets four more. My players did not think it was so funny. :D

It is terrible. At DGLO, the entry fee was $86 for Ams. It was an 80 person AM1 field. I T3rd and got $130 in merch. My buddy Dennis Schwarz finished T15th, 14 strokes behind me. He got $100 in merch. It makes me wonder why I even tried?!? WTF!!! He told me that he got way more than he deserved, and that I got the STIFFY. But that was the least of A3's problems at DGLO, so whatever.

It is terrible. At DGLO, the entry fee was $86 for Ams. It was an 80 person AM1 field. I T3rd and got $130 in merch. My buddy Dennis Schwarz finished T15th, 14 strokes behind me. He got $100 in merch. It makes me wonder why I even tried?!? WTF!!! He told me that he got way more than he deserved, and that I got the STIFFY. But that was the least of A3's problems at DGLO, so whatever.




Advanced payouts are a joke, and that one sounds better than the payouts at DSM and Majestic. Be happy, I guess.

Yea but what was the entry fee for MM and DSM? I don't know, but I'll bet it was way under $86.

It is terrible. At DGLO, the entry fee was $86 for Ams. It was an 80 person AM1 field. I T3rd and got $130 in merch. My buddy Dennis Schwarz finished T15th, 14 strokes behind me. He got $100 in merch. It makes me wonder why I even tried?!? WTF!!! He told me that he got way more than he deserved, and that I got the STIFFY. But that was the least of A3's problems at DGLO, so whatever.




Advanced payouts are a joke, and that one sounds better than the payouts at DSM and Majestic. Be happy, I guess.



At the Capital of Texas Open In austin there were 36 Ma1 players with an entry fee of $45 dollars and first received $55 in merch.A couple of us donated our winnings to the guy who won.That is pathetic if you ask me. I think the worst thing was when they posted the payout prior to the 3rd round it kind of killed the competitive spirit for most of the players.

EZ Disc go pro and play for $$$$$ ;) Remember SOLO

EZ Disc go pro and play for $$$$$ ;) Remember SOLO


Pro masters in about 4 1/2 yrs..

OK, that's worse.

Yea but what was the entry fee for MM and DSM? I don't know, but I'll bet it was way under $86.



your correct. It was lower. Around 60, I think. I guess that makes 65$ for 4th in a field of 50+ worth it.


When I did the Safari it was C-Tier, $30.00 to play. You recieved a $20.00 player pack for 4$. The rest of the money went to payout, and Advanced men winner recieved a Ching. His money then ran downhill for everyone else. Last cash in Advanced got around 25$ I think, while still using the PDGA reccomended payout of 40%. Maybe 45%, Im not sure off hand.

It is terrible. At DGLO, the entry fee was $86 for Ams. It was an 80 person AM1 field. I T3rd and got $130 in merch. My buddy Dennis Schwarz finished T15th, 14 strokes behind me. He got $100 in merch. It makes me wonder why I even tried?!? WTF!!! He told me that he got way more than he deserved, and that I got the STIFFY. But that was the least of A3's problems at DGLO, so whatever.




Advanced payouts are a joke, and that one sounds better than the payouts at DSM and Majestic. Be happy, I guess.



At the Capital of Texas Open In austin there were 36 Ma1 players with an entry fee of $45 dollars and first received $55 in merch.A couple of us donated our winnings to the guy who won.That is pathetic if you ask me. I think the worst thing was when they posted the payout prior to the 3rd round it kind of killed the competitive spirit for most of the players.



Gee. thatll make you want to play that event again.

One thing that has changed separate from any payout table changes for Advanced is the required player packs and that TDs can count this in the payout. They could count packs in the past but now they are doing it more often. So when you talk about the payout, you can't ratio it to the total entry fee but only after deducting the player pack value. Some of those packs may have a legit $40 value at big events so your payout should be compared to maybe $30-40 entry instead of $65-86.

I'm thinking the Advanced chart might need to be tweaked to be less flat at the top since player packs are now a requirement and everyone gets something. The top players should feel like they won something if they get into the top 3-5 spots in the big events.

One thing that has changed separate from any payout table changes for Advanced is the required player packs and that TDs can count this in the payout. They could count packs in the past but now they are doing it more often. So when you talk about the payout, you can't ratio it to the total entry fee but only after deducting the player pack value. Some of those packs may have a legit $40 value at big events so your payout should be compared to maybe $30-40 entry instead of $65-86.

I'm thinking the Advanced chart might need to be tweaked to be less flat at the top since player packs are now a requirement and everyone gets something. The top players should feel like they won something if they get into the top 3-5 spots in the big events.



Yep, I wasn't really being fair. Retail value of player packs at DGLO was $105.
And I think that if one cannot play well enough to beat 2/3 of the field, they lost! No soup! I'm in favor of big player packs and steep payout %, with the last casher (exactly the top third of the field) getting near entry fee back.
If I wanted everyone to have fun and win stuff for not playing well, I'd host a picnic with an entry fee and a nice big merch picnicer pack. If I sign up for a tourney, I want to compete!!!

It is terrible. At DGLO, the entry fee was $86 for Ams. It was an 80 person AM1 field. I T3rd and got $130 in merch. My buddy Dennis Schwarz finished T15th, 14 strokes behind me. He got $100 in merch. It makes me wonder why I even tried?!? WTF!!! He told me that he got way more than he deserved, and that I got the STIFFY. But that was the least of A3's problems at DGLO, so whatever.




Advanced payouts are a joke, and that one sounds better than the payouts at DSM and Majestic. Be happy, I guess.



At the Capital of Texas Open In austin there were 36 Ma1 players with an entry fee of $45 dollars and first received $55 in merch.A couple of us donated our winnings to the guy who won.That is pathetic if you ask me. I think the worst thing was when they posted the payout prior to the 3rd round it kind of killed the competitive spirit for most of the players.



Gee. thatll make you want to play that event again.



I know!! Last years payout was much better. I believe I received around 130 or 140 for 3rd and first received about 200 or better!!

I don't know about the new payout system, it pays a little too deep, and I don't like the fact that some places get payed the same amount of money. if somone beats you, I think they deserve a little more money...right?


Based upon that idea what happens when 2 people tie for first place and have a playoff and someone looses by one stroke ( by sudden death play off )
does first place deserve SOOOOO much more for a ONE STROKE VICTORY ???

And the only way people get paid the same amount is if the TDS round numbers , the pay out tables are %s and are broken down to 3 decimal places so people getting the same amount is NOT really true .

All these ideas ( more % of players in a division getting paid and flatter payout to those % of people who " win " )
are just small steps to get people to try moving up .
I have listed others before but putting player rating caps on all divisions is another , added cash mostly to open players ( along with getting more added cash , which in my turn most if not all pro players would get paid )

I mean look at ball golf ( lots and lots of added cash and all these players are sponsored and have their entry fees paid ) they dont really play for other players money . They play for sponsors money

I would like to see all of these and more but they come slow .

I hate to be a realist but at most tourneys you are playing against people who are arbitraily saying they are possibly going to beat you . WHICH means IMPO that there is NO real divisions that really match players of like capability .
UNTIL that happens all you are doing ( especially if you are playing in a protected division ) is SANDBAGGING
IMPO how in that situtation can you complain EVER about payout ???

does first place deserve SOOOOO much more for a ONE STROKE VICTORY ???


Yes. Definately deserves it.

Got CHEESE :D

ok so you play 4 rounds of disc golf and you and one other person in your division shoots the same over 4 rounds of golf , and now the payout is $500 for first and $350 for second .

Don t you think it should be switched to $450 and $400 cause they tied over 4 rounds of golf and someone lost $150 for a potential of a one hole playoff ???

I dunno, I think that there has to be a winner and a loser. Should you saw the trophy in half?

I once flipped a disc for a trophy!! :p

I think the idea should be maybe the payouts could be adjusted by score , to a certain degree ( this arguement is only being discussed cause a person said about people getting paid the same in 6,7th place )
I do believe there should be a min payout table but you could adjust alittle based upon final score . I have never understood how someone can win so much more money or prizes just cause they won by ONE STROKE

NOW I have to admit with the new payout tables , it has solved this problem to a degree ( flatter payouts to the fatter % of people paid )

actually IF you could I would pay out EQUAL in cash and just give the trophy to the " winner "
OR just give a bit more to the " winner "
Lets face it over 4 rounds of golf and you tie you should get close to the same " winnings " should you not ???

No, it is the ability to do what it takes to win by that "mere" stroke that defines the winner.

One thing that has changed separate from any payout table changes for Advanced is the required player packs and that TDs can count this in the payout. They could count packs in the past but now they are doing it more often. So when you talk about the payout, you can't ratio it to the total entry fee but only after deducting the player pack value.



One thing I do to help drive home this point is to publish scores with payout and include the players pack. Here is an example. (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5855&amp;year=2006&amp;incl udeRatings=1#Advanced) Of course, when scores become "official", the Am payouts disappear.

This example is a small C-Tier, but doing this trains AM's that the players' pack is part of the payout. This event had a $22 entry fee, $2 of which went to PDGA Players Fees. For the Adv field, 20 X $20 = $400 = 100% payout = what was paid out (they can add it up and see for themselves).

We give a $10 merchandise certificate to all Ams as their players' pack and also do payouts in merch bux. This makes it easy for everyone and the players can select the exact merch of their liking.

I once flipped a disc for a trophy!! :p



Same here...................split the cash purse though. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I have never understood how someone can win so much more money or prizes just cause they won by ONE STROKE



This is the nature of competitive sports, though. Look at a big PGA tournament, say the Masters. This year Mickelson took home over 1.2 million for the win. Second place, only losing by 2 shots over 4 rounds of golf, takes home 756,000. This is 60% less than what Phil made.

If you choked on the playoff in a tournament you deserve a much lower payout. If the TD makes the payouts tighter because you forced a playoff, there is no (or much less) incentive to win that playoff next tournament. Bigger payouts for the top spot is a must, whether you are a pro or an am. IMHO

One thing that has changed separate from any payout table changes for Advanced is the required player packs and that TDs can count this in the payout. They could count packs in the past but now they are doing it more often. So when you talk about the payout, you can't ratio it to the total entry fee but only after deducting the player pack value.



One thing I do to help drive home this point is to publish scores with payout and include the players pack. Here is an example. (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5855&year=2006&includeRatings=1#Advanced) Of course, when scores become "official", the Am payouts disappear.

This example is a small C-Tier, but doing this trains AM's that the players' pack is part of the payout. This event had a $22 entry fee, $2 of which went to PDGA Players Fees. For the Adv field, 20 X $20 = $400 = 100% payout = what was paid out (they can add it up and see for themselves).

It wasn't 100% payout you paid out $399 and ADV brought in $400 so where did the other $1 go? :D j/k

At the Capital of Texas Open In austin there were 36 Ma1 players with an entry fee of $45 dollars and first received $55 in merch.A couple of us donated our winnings to the guy who won.That is pathetic if you ask me. I think the worst thing was when they posted the payout prior to the 3rd round it kind of killed the competitive spirit for most of the players.



Gee. thatll make you want to play that event again.



I know!! Last years payout was much better. I believe I received around 130 or 140 for 3rd and first received about 200 or better!!


Last years entry was $58 for MA1 with a $15 players pack. This year it was $45 with a <$40 players pack. What was the percentage payout this year versus last year at this charity event? It's a shame you got more upfront and less in payout. Tell the whole story E. :eek: ;)

Which whole story?? the payout was very lame!! And $40 players pack!! please!! I guess i could fill a bag with free coupons and mostly useless junk etc. and count it for whatever I please, then deduct it as a players pack.. Sounds about right!! :p :p :p :p :p By the Way , I helped stuff the players packs and know what was in them and what was deducted for each item.

I got $20 water bottles
$25 disc
and some $5 $2 coupons for tolit paper
makes a $50 players pack for OUTLAWS /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Hell Vinnie just get some left over Sunday news papers and add all the coupons as a players pack.. There has to be around $400 in value there.. so they claim!! Lmao :p :eek: :o

Sunday coupons....what a great idea
I AM ON IT!

Jesus Christo!!!!!! Again.

Give it up.

Some value clubs and charities more than others. It's a preference. Lot's of tourneys, lot of preferences. Nothing wrong with that. As to the ams not getting "paid" well enough, the option of playing pro is open to every last one of them.

Yeah James!
You tellem!

What no Shut Your Donkey Vinnie? But I have to agree with James this time too :D

I got $20 water bottles
$25 disc
and some $5 $2 coupons for tolit paper
makes a $50 players pack for OUTLAWS /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



Don't forget to bring back the extremely popular massage gift certificates to make it a $150 player's pack.

:o

:D:eek:

I think Edman's sage is advice is needed here:

DON'T POKE THE BULL. :D

I got $20 water bottles
$25 disc
and some $5 $2 coupons for tolit paper
makes a $50 players pack for OUTLAWS /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



Don't forget to bring back the extremely popular massage gift certificates to make it a $150 player's pack.



that worked quite well!! ;) ;) ;) ;)

Was that a poke?
LOU...... you sir need to keep to your junior mafia......release of tainted smell......to the minimized 9 hole representation of fun you call Waterloo Summer League Thread and let the big dogs hash this out. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Serious now
It is too easy for a T.D. to %100 mark up some hot stamp disc or sponsor paraphernalia.
IMO
Pay out should be the majority of the payout.....Charities, club fees, pdga fees, park fees, potty fees and whatever a T.D. wants to claim is the responsibility of the T.D. to raise. This should be the main skill of a T.D......you know PROmoting. If an individual can't PROmote....then stick to being a player.....PLAYER!

That was a poke, good come back Vinnie :DI never got to use that coupon for that massage either Lou ;) my solution is play pro ;) :D;)

Was that a poke?
LOU...... you sir need to keep to your junior mafia......release of tainted smell......to the minimized 9 hole representation of fun you call Waterloo Summer League Thread and let the big dogs hash this out. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Serious now
It is too easy for a T.D. to %100 mark up some hot stamp disc or sponsor paraphernalia.
IMO
Pay out should be the majority of the payout.....Charities, club fees, pdga fees, park fees, potty fees and whatever a T.D. wants to claim is the responsibility of the T.D. to raise. This should be the main skill of a T.D......you know PROmoting. If an individual can't PROmote....then stick to being a player.....PLAYER!



WORD!!!

It's all about the motivating force of the TD/event staff/host club. The tourney then takes on that approach. "What can this tourney do for our club?" or "What can our club do for this tourney?" Seems pretty simple. ;)

I tend to agree with Vinnie, oh my :eek:

I think that our tourny is to promote our course and city. IMO, our club funds should be utilized to PROmote our tournament. We don't use our event to add to the club coffers.

Maybe this line of thinking is not right.........

Well, one line of thinking is that the Waterloo club (specifically, a hard core group of them) does a helluva lot of good with the money they raise. Charities are assisted and relations with the community/city are made stronger. This goodwill allows them to use the club money for new courses and course upkeep. Witness Circle C and Manor. Well, the idea of Manor at least. :D

Bottomline. The club is excellent at what it prioritizes: community relations and course development. IMO, everyone should appreciate that rather than complain about how much they got paid. Sorry for the thread drift, but I was getting a little sick of hearing about this.

Was that a poke?
LOU...... you sir need to keep to your junior mafia......release of tainted smell......to the minimized 9 hole representation of fun you call Waterloo Summer League Thread and let the big dogs hash this out. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Serious now
It is too easy for a T.D. to %100 mark up some hot stamp disc or sponsor paraphernalia.
IMO
Pay out should be the majority of the payout.....Charities, club fees, pdga fees, park fees, potty fees and whatever a T.D. wants to claim is the responsibility of the T.D. to raise. This should be the main skill of a T.D......you know PROmoting. If an individual can't PROmote....then stick to being a player.....PLAYER!




You guys crack me up. On one level this thread complains about Amateur payout - which is an oxymoron to begin with. If you guys are truly "competitive" come play against the Open Division or shut your pie hole about payout. Ams getting 100's of $$ worth of "payout"???? Puhlease.

HOWEVER - Vinnie raises an issue whether he meant to or not - that no one else wishes to address.

The whole notion of sanctioning events (and the sheer number of them) by the PDGA has nothing to do with whether or not the TD is either willing or capable of doing the promotional work to put on an event worthy of sanctioning in the first place. Sanctioning practices are largely a function of volume - TD's are not required to do anything more than fill out a form. I've seen events granted ATier status their first year on the tour. Some are surprisingly successful, many are pathetic failures - All are a reflection of the willingness of the TD to spend the time and effort to promote the event.

In the end - it's a result of growing pains. DG is growing - courses go in - people want to run events on the new courses. The PDGA is there to offer a forum - but little in the way of oversight (actually its probably more like all the new TD's don't know how to take advantage of either the PDGA resources available to them - nor do they take advantage of the experience of previous TD's in their area). There are other significant impacts from allowing anyone to sanction an event - with the schedule so jam packed - many events suffer in attendance. Why should anyone drive 2-3 hrs - if they can play an event in their backyard every couple weeks? Balance - we need more balance. Divisions - we need fewer divisions.

OK this is really similar to the am to pro thread and I just have to put my 2 cents worth in here too. As far as how money is raised or distributed I don't feel that I have enough knowledge to voice my opinion one way or another :confused:. But I do have an opinion on the constant Ams should get nothing and feel privilaged to be playing in the tourneys. I have only been playing a couple of months and have participated in a couple of tourneys and have really enjoyed them playing intermediate. I don't understand why everyone is so against having some sort of payout for ams it is from the entrance fee of the people participating in ams :confused: no one is trying to take money from the pros nor should they. If there was no payout for ams then attendance at events would severely drop, because more than half of the people playing at tourneys are ams which would cause less money going into local clubs, PDGA, and the money spent in local communities by the ams visiting the communities. And the silliest thing I keep hearing is if you want to compete for prizes play in open, you know you don't want that, could you imagine if some of these ams including myself were placed on some of these pros cards, the mistakes I make and the time it takes some of us ams would throw off you top pros so bad you would be begging to send us back to intermediate, recreational, or anywhere but sharing a card with you all. And an 800 rated am is not going to put down 60-100+ dollars to get beat by at least 20 strokes every round. Every disc golfer has to begin somewhere and some are just god gifted enough to be better than other does that mean that just 950 rated plus players should be allowed to play in tourneys, that is the kind of elitist thinking that I believe seperates Disc Golf from our Ball partners. Disc golf is and should be for anyone that enjoys the game and the atmosphere. If the sport continues to grow at the rate it is now in five to ten years I could see more tourneys split into to two tourneys one for Pros and one for Ams like the two tourneys held here in Bowling Green in early April and I know there is a couple like that in Florida. But there has got to be some motivation for us ams to put down our $25-75+ to play and that comes from players pack and payouts in plastic and other prizes. If you still cannot stand seeing us vile amateurs then you can always just participate in Majors and NT events without ams ;). I am really not trying to step on toes or upset anyone as my favorite saying I made up, People say there are two sides to every story, I believe that is a very low estimate and this is just my side.

I said earlier in this thread :

I hate to be a realist but at most tourneys you are playing against people who are arbitraily saying they are possibly going to beat you . WHICH means IMPO that there is NO real divisions that really match players of like capability .
UNTIL that happens all you are doing ( especially if you are playing in a protected division ) is SANDBAGGING
IMPO how in that situtation can you complain EVER about payout ???

Craig says now :

You guys crack me up. On one level this thread complains about Amateur payout - which is an oxymoron to begin with. If you guys are truly "competitive" come play against the Open Division or shut your pie hole about payout. Ams getting 100's of $$ worth of "payout"???? Puhlease.

I restate these things along with another thread statement of "
Greed is the main if not only reason people would complain about payouts in protected divisions "
Paraphrased alittle but to the point

All that said I agree with Craig 100 % in this area

beleive me I am not trying to make you , an 800 , player turn pro . I fought against that a long time ago and still do .

Where I have a problem is the 970 rated advanced player or worse yet the 1000 rated master player playing in a division of protection ( master or advanced ) when he is more then capable of playing in the open division .

the intermediate division should impo be filled with players packages and a VERY FLAT payout ( top half min )
Also in your division there are ratings caps that will force the better players to move up .
Those divisions ( jr , recreational and intermediate ) are the sports growing field that is where you all should get the plastic to try out and play .

Other divisions that are PROTECTED should also have caps so that the players who can compete against the open players should have to move up and do it instead of just sitting and collecting way more then some of the lower open players .

OK I still believe that If I put my money into a tourney I should at least have the opportunity to win it back I am going to play this weekend and know I have basically no chance of cashing, but I do believe that I should have the CHANCE to win something, why would I go and put my $30 or so down and know I have no chance of getting anything. But to the other point I do understand the "Bagger" part so what are you suggesting that maybe we have mandatory levels like what the Mid-nationals have where just as an example if you are over 800 you can't participate in rec. over 900 or so you can't compete in intermediate, I could see something like that happening. But I really believe if you completely did away with payouts for ams they would be back before the summer was over because I believe attendance would fall at least 1/3 at most tourneys. And as I stated on the other thread I truly do believe that these are all good points to every side and that is why we have to have some sort of compromise, no one is going to get everything they want but at the same time no one will hopefully be left out. Because it would be in my best interest for the pros to play for the pure joy and donate their entry to intermediate and have payout all the way down to last place :D. And most people are not bagging yeah there are a couple that may should move up in every division but they usually do within a year because of the constant chant of "move up bagger"

I rarely post anything serious on this board, but...

Everyone has their opinion - some agree with Mr. Gangloff (me), and others agree with others, but the bottom line is perceived value. This thing we love is growing so fast that there are choices for everyone, and everyone's going to make their own. Up here in NEFAland just about every tournament fills up quickly; those that don't, well... don't. Those tournaments that provide an excellent perceived value (irrespective of payout) fill so frickin fast the procrastinator gets shut out every time. There is a tourney in VT that pays out in maple syrup and trophies. Maple syrup for God's sake!! Guess what? That tournament opened for registration a month ago and is just about full as we speak.

As it is now there is much latitude in how a TD chooses to structure his/her payout, and that is good. I feel that the prevailing philosophy should be that the fewer the rules the better. Just some basic rules like mandatory bathrooms, etc.- let the TDs run their own events their own way, and the wheat WILL separate from the chaff. Do your research before registering such that you maximize the likelihood that you will enjoy yourself, and if you don't - DON'T GO BACK! It's that simple.

Ever hear of anyone complaining about PAW PAW, Warwick, or Master's Cup, or MSDGC? No, because these are the successful events. There's a reason folks. Choose wisely, and vote with your feet.

If someone steps up and runs a tournament with fewer divisions based on ratings (come on Craig) and everyone that enjoys themselves and tells their friends back home "Wow, you don't want to miss this one", then that event will become successful. Can anyone say MSDGC? When I talked with LL and Haney after the 04 MSDGC they said the touring players wouldn't cross the Hudson for a non-sanctioned event...well looky, they're both returning for the 3rd year in a row, and even Mr. Craig "I play 3 choice events a year" Gangloff is coming. The registration list of 144 PLAYERS IN 3 DIVISIONS sports some other pretty serious players as well, with a waiting list as long as your arm. Even the most serious in this sport are deep down pretty serious about having a great time.

More tournaments, fewer restrictive rules on structure, and more and more players that know what they want... at least two of the three are bound to happen in the near future.

James shut it!
And my comment was NOT directed at WATERLOO.....We all know what they do and know what to expect at their events. I am GENERALLY speaking

HOWEVER - Vinnie raises an issue whether he meant to or not - that no one else wishes to address.


So I did word it where folks get the meaning.

robertinbg;

Please don't misconstrue my disdain for "am payout" as disregard for the necessity and acceptibility of having amateur competitive divisions - and having some form of return to those players based on their entry and participation. My disdain is much more for the divisions referenced by Mr. Geibel, which are essentially protected divisions - where the scores overlap with the Open Division. Overlap is even ok to a degree - and should be expected. BUT - when at the end of the day - there are 40 men in 3 divisions (Open, Masters, Advanced Am), and the scores in each are essentially the same (ie top master is in the top 5 in Open, top Advanced is in or near cash in open) I call BS on the need for divisions at all. Couple that condition with griping from top Advanced players that they aren't getting rewarded enough - and that their competitive spirit is being tromped on - again I must call BS. In one breath top advanced say (and often with alot of bravado and smack talk) how good they are (with ratings ranging upwards of 970-980) and in the next breath they make excuses why they can't compete with the Open players. From where I come from in DG - all I see is a defeatist attitude - lacking in self confidence - unwilling to take the chance of actually making themselves better players by ACTUALLY COMPETING to see who is best on a given day.

Let me be perfectly clear before I get some hate mongering response from NK. My disdain is not for the players themselves in either the Masters or Advanced divisions - but for the divisional structure that arbitrarily divides us based on subjective choice. Competition should be set up by an objective measure of skill - period.

, why would I go and put my $30 or so down and know I have no chance of getting anything.



Here is the problem. You have gotten something. You were allowed to participate in an organized, competitive event. All of these people would not have been there had the TD not done the legwork and promotion to get them all to show up at a proscribed time and place for you to play with. Further, the TD and helpers probably prepared the course (and I'm not just talking about tourney day) to be in competition worthy shape.

So did you really "get nothing" for your $30. The only people who really get nothing for all of their work are the TD's and their helpers. Do you complain when you go to the movies and plunk down $9.00 to watch a film. Do you leave saying that you should have gotten something of value for that $9.00? Or do you realize that the film and the enjoyment you had were the payoff? Hey, maybe THE EVENT is the payoff for your entry fee and ANYTHING that you get is a bonus. Try running a 10K and see how much stuff you get for your $30 entry fee. While you're there notice how many more people there are there than at ANY disc golf tournament. Then notice that no one is complaining about only getting a t-shirt.

Seriously, the tournament is your payout. Anything else is bonus. TD's either break even or lose money almost everytime. If any TD was to post that he was taking the max allowed out as per PDGA in a sanctioned event to pay himself for all of his work he would be rode out of town on a rail.

I would like to see less complaints about payout level and payouts period and more about what we need to do to keep quality TD's around to keep throwing great events.

^^^^^

Word.

Nice..........................

Is this in the TD handbook for all to abide by ?
I hope this is in stone somewhere for all to follow.

"Here is the problem. You have gotten something. You were allowed to participate in an organized, competitive event. All of these people would not have been there had the TD not done the legwork and promotion to get them all to show up at a proscribed time and place for you to play with. Further, the TD and helpers probably prepared the course (and I'm not just talking about tourney day) to be in competition worthy shape.

So did you really "get nothing" for your $30. The only people who really get nothing for all of their work are the TD's and their helpers. Do you complain when you go to the movies and plunk down $9.00 to watch a film. Do you leave saying that you should have gotten something of value for that $9.00? Or do you realize that the film and the enjoyment you had were the payoff? Hey, maybe THE EVENT is the payoff for your entry fee and ANYTHING that you get is a bonus. Try running a 10K and see how much stuff you get for your $30 entry fee. While you're there notice how many more people there are there than at ANY disc golf tournament. Then notice that no one is complaining about only getting a t-shirt.

Seriously, the tournament is your payout. Anything else is bonus. TD's either break even or lose money almost everytime. If any TD was to post that he was taking the max allowed out as per PDGA in a sanctioned event to pay himself for all of his work he would be rode out of town on a rail.

I would like to see less complaints about payout level and payouts period and more about what we need to do to keep quality TD's around to keep throwing great events."

First nobody would argue about the hard work that TD's and volunteers and people that do the upkeep on the courses that a lot of the time is the sole responsiblity of the local club to keep playable. The people that want any portion of the fee to go to the TD, local club, or charities, I was not responding to you in any way. I don't care if all of it goes to one of those places it is needed more there than I need another T-shirt or disc. Give me a mini to remember the tourney by if you can and I will consider it a great tourney.

The people on the thread I was responding to are the people that want most or all of the am entry fees to go into the Pro purse. You all should read Mr. Papa's post because I agree with his statements 100%. ANYTHING that you receive from playing is extra so stop worrying about the am entrance fees and how much goes into the pro payout because THE EVENT is the payoff.

So please don't let the responses that I have posted in this thread cause you to judge me. I just felt that this thread was highly dominated by pros or high rated advance ams going pro in the next year and just wanted to try and give a little bit from my am perspective. It just seemed like the entire thread was put more money in the pro payout from the ams entrance fees and anytime someone said anything about getting any kind of am payout they were attacked. I just really don't see the difference why is it OK for pros to want more money but not OK for ams to want to get some kind of payout. I have spent around $300 dollars in various expenses for three tournaments and have left with a total of 2 T-shirts and 2 Discs and am very pleased with my tourney experience. But I just wanted to get across the point that ams especially the younger ones get the same enjoyment (maybe more) from a stack of discs as a pro does from their payout which I COMPLETELEY 100% AGREE THAT WE NEED TO FIND A WAY TO MAKE PRO PAYOUT HIGHER. I just don't think that the best long term solution is to rely on money from the am entrance fees I can see more negatives than positives from that practice and wanted to get my perspective out there.

This is hopefully the last time I respond because I do agree with Scott Papa's sentiment that this is a silly thing to be arguing about. Let the PDGA or TD decide the payout and go have a good time. If you or I don't like the way it is set up then we can choose not to go.

Is it true that recieving payout in the form of discs and such now is illegal by the NCAA? Do they considered the prizes as taking money? Can this affect juniors eliagabilty on down the line if they want to play college sports?

Tom Lowry has been doing a lot of research into this for the JDGF tour.

http://www.jdgf.org

That is where I heard it from and that is why he only does trophies for juniors.

An NCSU site says
Under NCAA amateurism rules, an individual loses his or her amateur status and shall not be eligible for intercollegiate competition in a particular sport if the individual uses his or her athletics skill (directly or indirectly) for pay in any form in that sport. It is important to note that educational expenses (e.g., high-school or preparatory school tuition payments) may be considered a prohibited form of pay based on athletics skill, depending on the source from which the educational funds are received.

This is from Wake Forest and looks more like they are paraphrasing the actual rule, but I'm not sure:
ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS
ATHLETIC ELIGIBILITY

To remain athletically eligible, it is important not to endanger your amateur athletic status. It is essential that you check with your Head Coach before making decisions regarding outside athletic participation. The following are NCAA guidelines for maintaining your amateur status:

You cannot, within your sport:

Accept payment or a promise of payments (in cash, prizes, gifts or travel) for participation in your sport.
Enter into an agreement of any kind to compete in professional athletics. You cannot negotiate a verbal or written professional contract.
Request that your name be put on a draft list for professional sports or try out during the academic year, inclusive of all vacations, with a professional sports organization.
Use your athletic skill for payment. You cannot be employed on a "fee for lesson" basis.
Play on any professional athletics team.
Have your athletically related financial aid determined by anyone other than the University.
Participate on teams other than those fielded by Wake Forest University during the academic year inclusive of all vacations.
You cannot, in any sport:

Agree to have your picture or name used to promote a commercial product.
Accept such things as gifts, meals, and loans of cars or money from a WFU employee or booster.
Be represented by an agent or organization to market your athletic skills or reputation.
Receive any benefit not available to other students at the University.
Participate in summer leagues not approved by the NCAA in the sports of men�s and women�s basketball and baseball. You must have written permission from the Director of Athletics to participate in Summer Leagues.
Play on an outside athletic team during the academic year, inclusive of all vacations, without receiving permission from the NCAA, your Head Coach, and the Faculty Athletics Representative.
Knowingly provide information to individuals involved in organized gambling activities concerning intercollegiate athletics competition; solicit a bet on any intercollegiate team; accept a bet on any team representing the institution or solicit or accept a bet on any intercollegiate competition for any item (e.g., cash, shirt, dinner) that has tangible value.
Participate in any gambling activity that involves intercollegiate or professional athletics, through a bookmaker, a parlay card or any other method employed by organized gambling.

So right there at the top it looks like most top amateur high school aged disc golfers would be ineligible from competing at a theoretical NCAA disc golf competition. But, it does not look like they would be ineligible from competing in actual NCAA sports.

Somehow I suspect that if the NCAA wanted to have a disc golf program, they would have to make exceptions for players who played PDGA-style amateur disc golf before the NCAA program came into existence. Otherwise their program would consist strictly of novice players.

Actually, if anyone accepted prizes or cash for disc golf, they cannot compete in any NCAA sports. I direct you to the Jeremy Bloom case (the national team skier who accepted skiing sponsership and forfeited his NCAA football status at Colorado).

Actually, if anyone accepted prizes or cash for disc golf, they cannot compete in any NCAA sports. I direct you to the Jeremy Bloom case (the national team skier who accepted skiing sponsership and forfeited his NCAA football status at Colorado).



Actually, I believe the Bloom issue was strictly his sponsorships and endorsements, not any prizes he may or may not have won while skiing.

There are also countless cases of football players playing minor league baseball (and getting paid for it) before or during their NCAA football careers without losing their eligibility.

There is currently a Notre Dame football player (the name escapes me) who will or has recently competed as a professional boxer. The NCAA has said they won't declare him ineligible for football because he accepted the prize purse for boxing the match.

Based on these precedents, I would think that a player can even accept cash in a pro division and not lose eligibility according to the NCAA because it is not in his/her chosen NCAA sport. But a player could lose his/her eligibility by accepting sponsorship for playing disc golf (like in the Bloom case).

JMHO.

--Josh

I think Josh is right based on what little I know from reading the college websites. If you go find them for yourself you'll see that the NCAA has not been consistent with enforcement or interpretation of the rule, or at least that is the rap.

Actually, if anyone accepted prizes or cash for disc golf, they cannot compete in any NCAA sports. I direct you to the Jeremy Bloom case (the national team skier who accepted skiing sponsership and forfeited his NCAA football status at Colorado).

Please change your avatar...This is a family forum...And don't tell me that those girls are sisters... :D

Thanks and have a great day...

Actually, if anyone accepted prizes or cash for disc golf, they cannot compete in any NCAA sports. I direct you to the Jeremy Bloom case (the national team skier who accepted skiing sponsership and forfeited his NCAA football status at Colorado).

Please change your avatar...This is a family forum...And don't tell me that those girls are sisters... :D

Thanks and have a great day...


Nope, not sisters. One is an ex, and the other is her roomate. God I wish I was 22 again. But I will change my avatar as per your request.

Actually, if anyone accepted prizes or cash for disc golf, they cannot compete in any NCAA sports. I direct you to the Jeremy Bloom case (the national team skier who accepted skiing sponsership and forfeited his NCAA football status at Colorado).



Actually, I believe the Bloom issue was strictly his sponsorships and endorsements, not any prizes he may or may not have won while skiing.

There are also countless cases of football players playing minor league baseball (and getting paid for it) before or during their NCAA football careers without losing their eligibility.

There is currently a Notre Dame football player (the name escapes me) who will or has recently competed as a professional boxer. The NCAA has said they won't declare him ineligible for football because he accepted the prize purse for boxing the match.

Based on these precedents, I would think that a player can even accept cash in a pro division and not lose eligibility according to the NCAA because it is not in his/her chosen NCAA sport. But a player could lose his/her eligibility by accepting sponsorship for playing disc golf (like in the Bloom case).

JMHO.

--Josh



Bloom got into trouble because he made money accepting endorsements. The NCAA was nervous due to the concept of an amateur athlete earning endorsement money, even if it had nothing to do with the sport at which they are competing in NCAA competition. The NCAA did not care what the endorsement money was for; rather it cared that someone was making money and worried that the star QB might try and get an endorsement deal with Nike, etc. on their own and make money. They don't care, however, that various logos are splashed around the stadium, bowl games, insignias on jerseys, etc. provided the school and NCAA gets their cut. Did you know that in many cases you are restricted from how much money you can make from a summer job, etc. if you are an NCAA athletic scholarship athlete? NCAA mandates that you make 2000$ or less while in school.

As for the football players playing minor league baseball, they do NOT receive an athletic scholarship - rather they are supposed to pay their own way through school. That is the only real difference from being a scholarship athlete. And, I believe, they can not be paid if they are participating in minor league baseball in the summer (or must be under the 2000$ limit).

PEACH

I know Ricky Williams and Cedric Benson both played minor league baseball and were not on scholarship..

When I played CC soccer, which is still sanctioned by the NCAA, we weren't even allowed to have summer jobs, not that we could've with 3-a-days. Futhermore, we weren't even allowed to keep our equipment after the season was over. We had to give it all back even though it was useless to anyone else. The stupid part about the NCAA rules is: Its the same as every NFL or NBA play, there is a penalty on every play, or someone travels on every possesion, but the ones who get caught are the obvious ones. We broke NCAA rules, so did the football team, so did every CC we played. When I was at USM, I tutored football players, and they offered me money to take their tests for them, and apparently, that is the norm. I have friends that played football at Ole Miss, Ms. State, and Arkansas and it happens everywhere. So the NCAA is sending a message that they know everyone cheats, but they only nail the ones they want to.

Nope, not sisters. One is an ex, and the other is her roomate. God I wish I was 22 again. But I will change my avatar as per your request.



Thank you... ;)