Does anyone know the EXACT rule on this subject??? If you accept cash during a final nine skins match that takes the low 10 scores from a tournament and 4 Raffle winners count as turning pro??? I was just wondering what the PDGAs defenition of this is because I was told by the TD of the event that this Final 9 shootout was sanctioned and if anyone accepted cash in it that wasnt pro already would have to turn pro after accepting the shoot out cash!!!

I was just wondering if this is true or not???

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Your not going to Am Worlds anyway, just take the cash man. ;)

Since it seems they are taking the top 10 scores and 4 raffel winners, it seems that the skins contest is an ancilliary contest like an Ace Pot contest.

Does the skins contest count towards finish? It would be hard to justify it with the raffel winners coming in, they could come from the bottom of the junior divisions in that case.

If the cash is not given for your finish in the tournament then it does not count for accepting cash and relenquishing Amateur status.

It makes me wonder how the TD got the raffel winners approved for a final nine that counts toward total finish. I do not think it is the case, contact Dave Gentry or John Chapman if they do not respond on here. They are both good about responding to emails.

I just think the TD was trying to scam you into turning pro, which you should. And you should also get in your entry to Am Worlds. Between Conners, Lund and I you should not have a problem finding a place to stay.

Accepting

i believe the final ruling was that a post-event skins match does not count. the fact that you qualified for the skins match by shooting well in a sanctioned event does not have an effect on how the skins payout is viewed. it wasnt part of the sanctioned event - therefore it basically doesnt exist.

Accepting


You're too quick for me

I doubt accepting skins money will make your AM eligibility go away...if the TD told you that he is wrong. So what is next, accepting ace pot money will force an AM to move up?

I doubt accepting skins money will make your AM eligibility go away...if the TD told you that he is wrong. So what is next, accepting ace pot money will force an AM to move up?


Anyone who can throw an Ace has no place in the AM division, that's just ludicrous!

It looks like the cash that Open players won in the Final 9 skins match was reported as sanctioned winnings. Bob Smart "excepted" the $200 in the Final 9. But Steve has no sanctioned winnings, it seems. That's inconsistent.

Results HERE (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=6029)

If the cash round is being reported to the PDGA as part of the sanctioned tournament, you're a pro. You need to find out how the TD is reporting the event.

Bruce,

I thought this as well, but the classification guidelines state:

Turning Pro
A player relinquishes Amateur status by registering in a Professional division with the PDGA, or by competing in a Professional division at a PDGA Tour event and accepting prize money based on place of finish.

I know that if you play in an Open division as an amateur you must declare your intent NOT to take cash prior to the start of the tournament. I am trying to find that now, but the above suggests that if you are entered as an amateur and accepted cash, you are still an amateur. There are no rules on this.

Can anyone tell me where it talks about an amateur playing an open division?


If the cash round is being reported to the PDGA as part of the sanctioned tournament, you're a pro. You need to find out how the TD is reporting the event.

If the cash round is being reported to the PDGA as part of the sanctioned tournament, you're a pro. You need to find out how the TD is reporting the event.



Bruce, I think you are correct...if the TD reports the skins money than "on paper" Steve accepted Pro cash.

I can't find mention of skins money anywhere in the PDGA rulebook?

There is no report of me accepting anything other then 2nd place in the advanced division at this tournament!!! The only reason I would like to know is because of AM Worlds and Nationals and more worlds then Nationals because I may forgo worlds to try and qualify for USDGC in Warwick NY since Billy Lund is most likely going to WIN AM Worlds if he decides hes going to play!!!

I just want to know what the OFFICIAL PDGA ruling is so that I can plan out the rest of my season accordingly!!!

I have no job I needed the money and if the PDGA says im officially a Pro then so be it but if not I would still like to play in the USADGC since its in my backyard and im unhappy with my perfomance from last year!!!

The final 9 DID NOT count into your total score of your finishing place in the tournament!!! People were eliminated by CTP if they had the worst score on a hole and 1st and second place in the final 9 was decided by a CTP which I thought if the tournament was sanctioned ALL 1st place finishes were decided by a PLAYOFF!!!

Just want to know what division im in only to see if I can still play Nationals or Worlds!!! Other then that im going to be playin Open anyway and want to know if I need to deny cash to stay am or if im already a pro and I cant just take the cash!!!

Also would I be up for rookie of the year for 2007 or no if it is decided that I am a pro???

Thanks for all your help

Keep it coming

My question is how can raffle winners play off in a final 9 outside of their division in a PDGA sanctioned event? If they are registered as Am. Advanced/Intermediate/Junior, they technically can't play in an MPO/FPO final 9...at least not to determine final submitted scores.

They have to be registered in the Pro division for the tournament and earn their way onto the top card. Then if they place for cash, they can relinquish their Am status and turn Pro by accepting the cash, or decline the cash and stay Am.

Ace Pot $ and CTP $ won during the tournament or after the tournament does not count as accepting cash and relinquishing status.

At least this is my understanding. I have been TD an Co-TD for several PDGA sanctioned tournaments and no one but the Pros have played a final 9 to determine their position in the cash.

Hopefully someone from the PDGA will set this straight for you!

Cheers!
Carrie
www.kdgc.com (http://www.kdgc.com)

My question is how can raffle winners play off in a final 9 outside of their division in a PDGA sanctioned event? If they are registered as Am. Advanced/Intermediate/Junior, they technically can't play in an MPO/FPO final 9...at least not to determine final submitted scores.
* * *
Cheers!
Carrie
www.kdgc.com (http://www.kdgc.com)

At some tournaments they have a second event which is outside the tournament where they play for cash after the tournament is over.

Like at the bag tag finals a two years ago, Mills may remember, the top ten players had a sudden death shoot out for whatever the profits were on the season tag process, maybe $50 or so. The tournament was sanctioned. The shoot out was unsanctioned. The shoot out never happened, just like the amateur cash sidebet never happened. ;)

Mills, the answer is, you have to find out from the TD whether that cash was reported as part of the payout for the sanctioned tournament. Only the TD can answer your question. Looks to me like the TD decided to pad his stats and count that money as pro payout but not count it for the ams. :eek:

Other dude: You definately go pro if you register in a pro division and take cash. I think the Competition Director would probably say that if you registered as an Am and the TD paid you cash, you go pro for that too, if it is cash for how you finished in the sanctioned tournament. Obviously there is a big glaring loophole in that rule that would seem to let a TD pay amateurs cash in an amateur division, but everyone know that is not what the rule means.

The whole thing about having to declare in advance is a USGA thing, and not a PDGA thing.

Bruce,

I understand and agree that if you take cash, by the definition understood by the PDGA and it's membership, you should be considered an Open player. However, the rule book states that classifications are as defined by the the PDGA board and the PDGA competitive director and those definitions are found here Membership (http://www.pdga.com/members.php ), but if you go and read the classification guidelines it states quite clearly that to be considered an open player you must be entered in an Open division and accept cash. That is what it says. By convention taking cash for competitve play (not aces or CTP) we as a group believe you are now an open player, but that is NOT what the definitions say. Not disagreeing, just pointing out what it says. This is the point where you should say "By God, that is what it says! The PDGA should be more definiitive in their documents!" ;)

This link (http://www.pdga.com/documents/05PlayerDivisionsTable.pdf) says if you play open (accepted cash) but your rating is below 955, pros can play adv, correct? What if you don't have a rating?

There is no report of me accepting anything other then 2nd place in the advanced division at this tournament!!! The only reason I would like to know is because of AM Worlds and Nationals and more worlds then Nationals because I may forgo worlds to try and qualify for USDGC in Warwick NY since Billy Lund is most likely going to WIN AM Worlds if he decides hes going to play!!!

I just want to know what the OFFICIAL PDGA ruling is so that I can plan out the rest of my season accordingly!!!

I have no job I needed the money and if the PDGA says im officially a Pro then so be it but if not I would still like to play in the USADGC since its in my backyard and im unhappy with my perfomance from last year!!!

The final 9 DID NOT count into your total score of your finishing place in the tournament!!! People were eliminated by CTP if they had the worst score on a hole and 1st and second place in the final 9 was decided by a CTP which I thought if the tournament was sanctioned ALL 1st place finishes were decided by a PLAYOFF!!!

Just want to know what division im in only to see if I can still play Nationals or Worlds!!! Other then that im going to be playin Open anyway and want to know if I need to deny cash to stay am or if im already a pro and I cant just take the cash!!!

Also would I be up for rookie of the year for 2007 or no if it is decided that I am a pro???

Thanks for all your help

Keep it coming



Mills,

The PDGA will still consider you for 2007 Rookie of the Year if you turn pro after the 2006 Am Worlds. If you turn pro before the 2006 Am Worlds, you will be considered for 2006 Rookie of the Year. There are two ways you can turn pro:

1. Register with the PDGA as a pro (pay pro dues)

2. Accept cash in a PDGA event.

As far as the skins game goes, we have typically been pulling these types of things out of the stats from events. I consider a skins game more of an ancillary event like an ace pot, for example. If the skins counted in the score of the tournament (hopefully not, but I've seen this happen), that would be a different story perhaps. If you want to email me at [email protected], we can talk more details

Hope this helps,

John Chapman
PDGA Competition Director.

This link says if you play open (accepted cash) but your rating is below 955, pros can play adv, correct? What if you don't have a rating?




Correct. Those with no rating are subject to whatever the TD decides based on discussing the player's event experience or they may know this player's background already.

Here is a quote from another disc golf forum:

"You can play Pro anytime you want and you can even accept cash as long as your player rating is below 955. So you can switch back and forth between divisions until your rating is over the magic 955 barrier. If you then accept cash you are forced to play Pro."

The quote comes from a friend of mine, but it is based on his understanding of a conversation he had with Theo. Anyone care to comment on this?

So if i'm reading this right if you are an Am.

Then play in an Open Sanctioned event and get lucky and cash.

You still have the option to stay Am if your rating is below 955?

This is correct, but you can not play majors as adv after you have cashed, no matter what your rating is. I think you can appeal to the PDGA to get your am status back if you have been out of the sport for a few years though.

I dont beleive you get to stay AM..but you get to play in whatever AM division you qualify for. Meaning, if you accept cash you are Pro but you are still allowed to play AM just not at any Majors until your PR goes over 955 then you are only allowed in Pro divisions.

since Billy Lund is most likely going to WIN AM Worlds if he decides hes going to play!!!





Bold statement, I can think of two players that I would pick before him. :D

So if i'm reading this right if you are an Am.

Then play in an Open Sanctioned event and get lucky and cash.

You still have the option to stay Am if your rating is below 955?


That is techincally incorrect.

If you accept cash in a PDGA tournament you are pro. If you are a pro with a rating below 955 you can play Advanced, but you are still a pro. Pros can't compete in Am Majors.

So if i'm reading this right if you are an Am.

Then play in an Open Sanctioned event and get lucky and cash.

You still have the option to stay Am if your rating is below 955?


That is techincally incorrect.

If you accept cash in a PDGA tournament you are pro. If you are a pro with a rating below 955 you can play Advanced, but you are still a pro. Pros can't compete in Am Majors.



That is technically incorrect also.

If you are Pro under 955 then you can play any am division that your rating qualifies you for.

For example, with my 946 rating and being a pro for a long time, I'm still allowed to play Advanced which I've done this year along with also playing in GM Pro, Master Pro and Open Pro (trophy only) divisions so far. I'll play in the Blue division at Mid-Nationals with Ams and Pros who have ratings from 925-974. I'm even going to Am Worlds this year... but not as player, just the scorekeeper.

So if i'm reading this right if you are an Am.

Then play in an Open Sanctioned event and get lucky and cash.

You still have the option to stay Am if your rating is below 955?


That is techincally incorrect.

If you accept cash in a PDGA tournament you are pro. If you are a pro with a rating below 955 you can play Advanced, but you are still a pro. Pros can't compete in Am Majors.



That is technically incorrect also.

If you are Pro under 955 then you can play any am division that your rating qualifies you for.


If you are pro you can play any am division that your rating qualifies you for.

Hehe...nice catch :)

Turning Pro
A player relinquishes Amateur status by registering in a Professional division with the PDGA, or by competing in a Professional division at a PDGA Tour event and accepting prize money based on place of finish.

It says very clearly competing in a profesional division at a PDGA tour event, In the example provided the players had signed up to compete in an amatuer division so any cash they got should not have mattered.

That big, clever loophole has always been there, and when big, clever people like me have pointed it out, the PDGA has always said, "Everyone knows what the rule means. If the TD decides to pay Ams cash at a sanctioned event for how they finish, and they take it, they are pros."

So maybe if you are thin and obtuse you'll get away with it. I would not get away with it as a player or a TD because I've been told.

Turning Pro
A player relinquishes Amateur status by registering in a Professional division with the PDGA, or by competing in a Professional division at a PDGA Tour event and accepting prize money based on place of finish.

It says very clearly competing in a profesional division at a PDGA tour event, In the example provided the players had signed up to compete in an amatuer division so any cash they got should not have mattered.



:DI have no problems playing Am's for cash !!!!!!

Besides , sidebets , usually covers my gas and dinner tabs !!!!! :D

There is no report of me accepting anything other then 2nd place in the advanced division at this tournament!!! The only reason I would like to know is because of AM Worlds and Nationals and more worlds then Nationals because I may forgo worlds to try and qualify for USDGC in Warwick NY since Billy Lund is most likely going to WIN AM Worlds if he decides hes going to play!!!

I just want to know what the OFFICIAL PDGA ruling is so that I can plan out the rest of my season accordingly!!!

I have no job I needed the money and if the PDGA says im officially a Pro then so be it but if not I would still like to play in the USADGC since its in my backyard and im unhappy with my perfomance from last year!!!

The final 9 DID NOT count into your total score of your finishing place in the tournament!!! People were eliminated by CTP if they had the worst score on a hole and 1st and second place in the final 9 was decided by a CTP which I thought if the tournament was sanctioned ALL 1st place finishes were decided by a PLAYOFF!!!

Just want to know what division im in only to see if I can still play Nationals or Worlds!!! Other then that im going to be playin Open anyway and want to know if I need to deny cash to stay am or if im already a pro and I cant just take the cash!!!

Also would I be up for rookie of the year for 2007 or no if it is decided that I am a pro???

Thanks for all your help

Keep it coming



Mills,

The PDGA will still consider you for 2007 Rookie of the Year if you turn pro after the 2006 Am Worlds. If you turn pro before the 2006 Am Worlds, you will be considered for 2006 Rookie of the Year. There are two ways you can turn pro:

1. Register with the PDGA as a pro (pay pro dues)

2. Accept cash in a PDGA event.

As far as the skins game goes, we have typically been pulling these types of things out of the stats from events. I consider a skins game more of an ancillary event like an ace pot, for example. If the skins counted in the score of the tournament (hopefully not, but I've seen this happen), that would be a different story perhaps. If you want to email me at [email protected], we can talk more details

Hope this helps,

John Chapman
PDGA Competition Director.



So as far as the PDGA is concerned I am still an AM since the score of the final 9 Shootout didnt have any affect on our place of finish in the tournament and was not in any way added to the total score???

I just want to make sure thats what is being said!!!

Yes I pointed this out earlier, but the PDGA competitive director also has a say so and he has ruled in this discussion that if an Amateur takes money, regardless of division, the amateur is considered an open player by the PDGA.

As for amateur status.... if you petition the PDGA, you can have your status changed back to amateur from open. I suspect this is going to be dependent upon several factors. Once you have been reclassified, you may not play as an Amateur for 60 days in a minor tournament and for the remaining year, you may not participate in any major events.


Turning Pro
A player relinquishes Amateur status by registering in a Professional division with the PDGA, or by competing in a Professional division at a PDGA Tour event and accepting prize money based on place of finish.

It says very clearly competing in a profesional division at a PDGA tour event, In the example provided the players had signed up to compete in an amatuer division so any cash they got should not have mattered.

Yes I pointed this out earlier, but the PDGA competitive director also has a say so and he has ruled in this discussion that if an Amateur takes money, regardless of division, the amateur is considered an open player by the PDGA.



This is incorrect. I have talked with John about this via email and I am still considered a Amateur player by the PDGA and I am still able to play Worlds and Nationals if I so choose because the PDGA considers any final 9 or shootout that isnt added to total score a side game just like an Ace Pool or CTP.

I remain an amateur but will probly skip worlds in favor of going to Warwick to try and snag a USDGC bid and then my last am event will most likely be USADG in september!!!

I remain an amateur but will probly skip worlds in favor of going to Warwick to try and snag a USDGC bid and then my last am event will most likely be USADG in september!!!



Why don't you just come to Worlds, win it, and get your bid for USDGC there? Or are you scared?

I am sorry, I was not talking about your case. You have several other factors involved, including how the money was reported. I am speaking to others that are talking about the way the classification lays it out.


This is incorrect. I have talked with John about this via email and I am still considered a Amateur player by the PDGA and I am still able to play Worlds and Nationals if I so choose because the PDGA considers any final 9 or shootout that isnt added to total score a side game just like an Ace Pool or CTP.

I remain an amateur but will probly skip worlds in favor of going to Warwick to try and snag a USDGC bid and then my last am event will most likely be USADG in september!!!

I remain an amateur but will probly skip worlds in favor of going to Warwick to try and snag a USDGC bid and then my last am event will most likely be USADG in september!!!





Why don't you just come to Worlds, win it, and get your bid for USDGC there? Or are you scared?



I'm sure he's not scared of you, or your game....

-MI-

my last am event will most likely be USADG in september!!!



Heard that one before... :D

I'm sure he's not scared of you, or your game....

-MI-



I never meant that... just in general scared of the competition. The only event he has to fear my skills is in an ancilliary contest that me, B-Lund, and Devon Owens are the contenders.

I liked this thread a lot better when it was Excepting Cash and Turning Pro. Ah the good times, when Pimp was here to entertain us.

The Michiana Open reports their final 9 earnings as part of their total purse.
From what I have seen in year's past, if an Am in the 9 wanted to accept cash, they also relinquished their status. If they would elect to take merchandise instead, they could keep their status.
This is what HAS happened before.

If the Final 9 scores are not part of a continuation from the previous rounds, then it's an ancillary event that can still be included in total event payout but does not impact an Amateur's sataus whether they accept cash or not in the Final 9. That's how it is today regardless whether it was done otherwise in the past.

As long as everyone is on the same page with that.