I don't know if this has been posted before, so pardon me if it has, but I have a question.

Why do Open players pay 30 dollars more than jrs and 15 more bucks than Am's for their PDGA membership?

Why do we pay MORE? Better yet, why isn't every member charged the same?

Do Pro's receive any special deals or free stuff? NO

Do we get priority response time on emails, Um Hell no!

The PDGA profitted over a million dollars last year and what exactly is being done with that money? We are building the disc golf hall of fame in Augusta and 4 courses that have been under construction for what a year?, and not one course will be played at Worlds?

Hell I figured with that kinda cash, rating could be updated bi-weekly.

I know you all know, Timmy "the Pimp of the Year" Gill was on Cold Pizza tuesday morning. Broadcasting to millions the sport we know and love. He is NOT paid for his efforts. Why hasn't the PDGA taken the reigns and acheved what Timmy did years ago?

I dont want to sound ungrateful because I know we have programs likes E.D.G.E., teaching the youth and seeking Major Sponsorships for NT's

I, again this weekend, will give 4 dollars of my entry fee to the PDGA and I have no idea what its used for.

please enlighten me

Humbly yours,
Ken "TanK" Franks

Dude, what do you want? We get PLAYER RATINGS!

Yes, these questions have been asked before. There are many threads on this board to which you can refer and get more background and info.
Still, don't stop asking questions or challenging the PDGA.
But please remember that you can affect more positive change by offering solutions rather than slamming what you do not agree with, especially before you've done much research.

I do not think that the issue is how much we pay for membership, after all, most of us would still be PDGA members no matter what the financial costs, we just support the sport.

However, it does seem silly that not all members are paying the same price even though each member recieves the same benefits.

I think there should be two levels of membership.

1) PDGA Touring player, regardless of # of events played a year, these players play tournaments competitively.

2) PDGA Supporter, a player who loves the game, wants to see it grow, and feels that a nominal yearly fee is justified in helping the sport.

Each level would recieve the same package as we normally do each year. However the only difference is that the touring players would get discounts (like status quo) at tournaments. If a PDGA supporter wishes to play a PDGA event they must pay the $5 fee.

Just throwing out numbers, but the touring membership can be what the pros pay now, and the supporter be what the amateurs pay.

So what are you trying to say?.....All us am's are just a bunch of jock straps? :( ;)

ummmm........

So I meant to type pay not play.

Obviously Juniors and Amateurs would fall under the touring player classification.

My bad.
Plus, I am still amateur for at least the next 2 months. :p

Oh, and we get a typo-filled magazine that uses the same picture 3 or 4 times in the same issue!

Everybody just hush, they're watching us!

Everybody just hush, they're watching us!



Yeah, and they implanted tracking devices and cameras in your mini's. :eek:

Some of the items the PDGA does for Pros versus Ams has been to establish and maintain the National Tour including the separate website www.pdgatour.com (http://www.pdgatour.com) The Pro Worlds has also been a losing proposition (vs Am Worlds) since pros expect payout of more than 100% after expenses. So the PDGA has to underwrite this event and sometimes take a more active role in hosting it when they can't find a host willing to take a financial bath to support the pros. The DVD for Pro Worlds is also a net money loser in the $10K-20K range each year.

Several of the marketing ventures over the past 8 years to raise sponsorship are for the pros and I'm guessing have cumulatively run close to the six figure zone. Currently, John Duesler is under contract to seek a big time sponsor for the National Tour. The Marshal program primarily benefits pros. I'd have to check but it seems like the formation of the Disciplinary Committee was triggered because the majority of disciplinary actions have involved pros. Overall, pros have been getting additional support beyond the Ams and should pay even more relative to them. That will happen next year.

Pros........It's what the world revolves around. ;)

So, you could say that the Pros are subsidizing a lot of big mistakes?

By the way, if these marketing ventures worked out, they would be building up the sport for all future pros, or present ams. So, why should the burden fall entirely on the present pros?

As to the Pro Worlds DVD, nice of you to pin that ill on the pros also. You act as if the pros are demanding it. Let's just say that I have never got the impression that this is in the top ten of any pro's priorities. It is probably purchased by more ams than pros. So leave that one out of your little blame game.

james, you sound so ungrateful! :D

It's not a blame game at all. Someone asked what the pros get in addition to am benefits/support. I provided some items. The DVD has been judged as important for promotion to have a chance to land sponsors. So, 'yes' I will pin it on the pros if you wish to take a negative approach to it. The pros indicated long ago that marketing efforts were their number 1 priority for the PDGA. So whether those efforts were a success or not, they were and continue to be requested. Perhaps spending that money on new player development and EDGE activities might have produced a better result but that's where the BOD decided to spend those funds.

It sure does seem unfair to tax the current pros to produce benefits for the next generation of pros now doesn't it? Perhaps you can persuade the next BOD to cease any extra efforts supporting current pros and just wait for the player base to grow big enough to naturally support future pros and draw sponsors? I'm guessing you'd find a majority of members that wouldn't mind that.

It sure does seem unfair to tax the current pros to produce benefits for the next generation of pros now doesn't it?



So lets do the opposite. We can even model it after are current bunk-#$*&$! SS program.

Overall, pros have been getting additional support beyond the Ams and should pay even more relative to them. That will happen next year.


Can you give us a figure of what the increase in membership fees will be for PROs next year?

It's already been posted as $50 Am / $75 Pro for 2007.

It's already been posted as $50 Am / $75 Pro for 2007.

Thanks, I missed that post.

I'm not sure but I think you can lock in this year's rate by paying in advance for a few years.

Does the PDGA release an annual financial report showing where all the money comes from and where it all goes?

Here we go again. Where is grunion.

Does the PDGA release an annual financial report showing where all the money comes from and where it all goes?



Yes, Spring issue of DGWN every year.

A few questions on the marketing effort:

How does the relationship with Jon Duesler work? Does he get a stipend regardless of what new sponsorships come into the NT? Is he going to get a comission off of new sponsorship revenue? What have the initial results of getting larger galleries to the NT events been?

I know it is going to take time for the marketing effort to yield results. It would be nice if the general membership had access to a quaterly marketing report. I think Timmy on Cold Pizza has already done a ton for the marketing of disc golf. At least 10 people not connected to the sport mentioned that they saw a disc golf Pro on Cold Pizza. A few asked if they could come out to the course with me. Lets get Timmy on the marketing commitee.

I've got to pipe up here and say that I find the entire demeanor of the starting post to be offensive and degrading.

Now I respect everyone's right to question things, and to enter into open discussion about issues, but the author's original post (like Grunion's often were) frames the question he asks from an already biased viewpoint.

"The PDGA profitted over a million dollars last year and what exactly is being done with that money?"

How have you determined that the PDGA had a million dollar profit? While I might be able to believe that the PDGA had $1M in income, that doesn't mean it is profit. What about their expenses?

The author also thinks that with that kind of cash that ratings could at least be done bi-weekly. This illustrates just how misinformed his thinking is... I wonder if it ever occurred to him to pose the question a different way: Why aren't ratings updated more frequently? (In which case he'd get an answer from Chuck about why ratings aren't updated more frequently...) The way it is posed makes it seem like folks are being lazy or that the PDGA isn't spending money in the direction he would prefer.

Timmy Gill is definitely contributing his efforts toward the promotion of disc golf...but I would strongly disagree that Timmy isn't deriving a benefit from his efforts. Timmy has been enjoying the benefit of the PDGA efforts for years and he will likely achieve more benefit in the future too...I'm really thrilled that he is out in the forefront in promoting our sport right now with his ESPN gig! Thanks Timmy!!!

And here is my favorite one: "...again this weekend, will give 4 dollars of my entry fee to the PDGA and I have no idea what its used for."

Dude! If it is important to you, then why don't you actually make some kind of attempt at trying to find out instead of making a demeaning and critical-sounding post like this? It isn't the purpose of this message board...you can probably start by writing to the PDGA and asking them for an annual financial statement and then actually reading it...or maybe more in keeping with your apparent style, maybe you find someone else who will read it to you.

Being respectful toward the staffers and volunteers will get you a lot farther and will make you better informed than being critical and expecting them to justify themselves to you.

Thanks for your interest Rob.

After being the tournament director for the 2005 Pro Worlds, I was very much interested in continuing to promote disc golf in whatever capacity I could. It was soon thereafter that I submitted a proposal to the PDGA, that would allow me to act as the Marketing Director for two years to gain sponsorship, as well as provide other marketing functions, mostly geared towards the National Tour (of which I will attend 6 this year).

My agreement was that I would receive a $2500 stipend, as well as a modest expense account. So far I am encouraged at the results of our efforts. We have been able to bring Sierra Nevada into the fold for at least 2 NT events (and hopefully The Players Cup). Other companies that I am in contact with in efforts to gain sponsorship are:

Merrell Shoes
Dick's Sporting Goods
Ford Motor Company
KIA Motor Company
Nicoderm
Sharpee
Sirius Satellite Radio
Natural Resources Defense Council
and others...

In addition, we have done significant work in providing media materials, lanyards, promotional options, tournament support, and media relations for the NT tournament directors. We have made very positive contributions to the NT, and I think the TD's would agree with that. In addition, I've also been helping to keep pdgatour.com up-to-date with reports from the events I attend.

We have done Mall demos, been on radio interviews, received network tv coverage, been on sports section front pages, produced sponsorship flyers, circulated press releases, produced a Video News Release, and are currently finishing a disc golf pilot that will be presented to the Outdoor Life Network and others.

You should also know that I have invested my own money in video equipment, a laptop computer, production software, and other materials necessary to properly support the NT to the tune of over $5000. All this in an effort to present our sport in the best possible light.

You are welcome to take a look at a newsletter that I'm developing as a vehicle to promote disc golf to corporations.

http://fromthetreetops.com/newsletter/spring_2006.pdf and
http://fromthetreetops.com/newsletter/winter_2006final.pdf

Clearly Tim's apprearance on Cold Pizza is a boon to our sport, and he deserves great credit for gaining our sport such exposure. In fact, I have been in extensive communications with DGTV, since it's been launched to provide as much support as I could (operational advise, video footage, as well as other support). Certainly I would welcome any productive Marketing input from Tim (or any of the many other disc golfers that I've spoken with in significant detail and substance about this very issue). My sense is, though, that Tim is happy with his role at DGTV.

Before this post gets too long, I would say to you that we are working on promoting disc golf EVERY DAY! Besides the retainer fee that was provided to me, I do not get paid a penny until a corporate sponsor is secured. And while I am certainly not in this for the money, I do believe that we are on our way to increased corporate support...but as I'm sure you're aware, it's very competitive out there. Of the ten friends who called you about the Cold Pizza clip, how many of them either come from a corporation that could sponsor disc golf or could leverage that clip into corporate sponsorship? That's what I'm trying to do right now!

Rob, if you have any positive suggestions to bring to our Marketing efforts, then please contact me directly. I would gladly listen to what you have to say.

Thanks,
Dr. John G. Duesler, Jr.
Marketing Director, PDGA
215.913.0569
marketing@pdga.com

#####

I can say this from first hand experience:

If you have an idea, suggestion, or need some help regarding sponsorship for the PDGA then just contact Jon. I did just that with a thought I had about the Houston NT and within two hours my phone was ringing. Jon was very easy to talk to and provided me with some useful info right away. Now I can't say that would be the case with every idea brought to him but I can say I was happy with my conversations with him.

I know you all know, Timmy "the Pimp of the Year" Gill was on Cold Pizza tuesday morning. Broadcasting to millions the sport we know and love. He is NOT paid for his efforts. Why hasn't the PDGA taken the reigns and acheved what Timmy did years ago?



I agree with Larry Ching Lizard that the "tone" of Ken Franks' original post needs work. As someone who gets told monthly about the tone of his own posts, I will offer that sometimes is not always easy to phrase things the best possible way and to everyone's liking.

But I do see where he is coming from; especially with the part I quoted above. In just a few short months, Timmy Gill and Disc Golf TV have set the bar on how to make a professional production of our sport. Just a few minutes on Cold Pizza has raised awareness of disc golf to an entirely new level.

I think people are just frustrated that this kind of thing has not happened often enough in the past. But as JD Flyer pointed out, the PDGA IS doing a ton of marketing in the form of mall demos, radio interviews, sponsorship flyers, press releases, video releases, etc. I have no doubts that it won't be long before a corporate sponsor is secured and awareness of disc golf rises to an entirely new level.

whats the pdga doing? kickin some serious @$$ thats what. keepin us from doing work cause were to busy playing on discussion.

keep it up to all that help run the pdga your doing a great job.
barkley out

But I do see where he is coming from; especially with the part I quoted above. In just a few short months, Timmy Gill and Disc Golf TV have set the bar on how to make a professional production of our sport. Just a few minutes on Cold Pizza has raised awareness of disc golf to an entirely new level.


Timing is everything.

Timmy has been doing an awesome job. Others have tried in the past to do what he's doing and failed. He seems to be the right guy at the right time to get done what he has accomplished so far. I'm pretty sure he's been paying attention for a while, so I'm going to assume that he has learned from others mistakes. Instead of pointing fingers and crying about what a waste of money <font color="purple"> what was that internet PPV program that got exclusive rights to the first year of the NT called </font> was, Tim seems to have taken the positive approach of "I think I can do that better" and has set out and done just that.

Maybe I'm reading too much into all of this and he just got lucky. Not likely, though. :)

He seems to be the right guy at the right time. The failed efforts of the past had to happen to get us to where we are now. Disc golf is booming, disc golf awareness is booming, and people who never heard of disc golf before and said "no" seem to be saying "maybe" now.

So to answer "what the heck has the PDGA been doing for 25 years when Timmy Gill got disc golf on ESPN in month", I say that the PDGA has been getting us in a position where Timmy Gill can start to succeed. :)

Let's keep it going forward.

<font color="purple"> edited to remove an incorrect reference to Disc Golf Live. I want to apologize to Disc Golf Live for using their name when I was looking for those other guys name. Sorry. </font>

I guess in the general context of the tone in this thread, my post may have come off to be critical. I was just looking for more information and a status update on the marketing effort. I honestly think it is a great opportunity for the sport to grow. I don't think the word modest describes that stipend that you get (it is so small it may be inmodest).

I think most members like to see all of the efforts and projects that you have in the works. Obviously there is information where confidentiallity is critical. Sponsorship seems to be an item that everyone has idea's how it should be better, but there seems to be far fewer people willing to go out and do the work to obtain the sponsorship's. Thank you for your efforts so far. I think the newsletter was well done.

I guess in the general context of the tone in this thread, my post may have come off to be critical. I was just looking for more information and a status update on the marketing effort. I honestly think it is a great opportunity for the sport to grow. I don't think the word modest describes that stipend that you get (it is so small it may be inmodest).

I think most members like to see all of the efforts and projects that you have in the works. Obviously there is information where confidentiallity is critical. Sponsorship seems to be an item that everyone has idea's how it should be better, but there seems to be far fewer people willing to go out and do the work to obtain the sponsorship's. Thank you for your efforts so far. I think the newsletter was well done.



Part of the problem Rob is that this question gets asked about once every 3 months, and it is always done in a fairly attacking way. Enough so that Brian has had to spend hours defending many common sense decisions on his part. It also doesn't help that 10 minutes of effort will get much of the information asked for, and the posts almost always say, "none of the info is available and they're... [conspiratorial voice on] hiding it from us. [conspiratorial voice off]." You see Rob, you've come in on the tails of Grunion, the Angry Clown and other vitriolic spewing people who were incredibly offensive.

I would like to reemphasize one of Rhett's "right on" comments. It's not just timing, it's the whole package. The skill set it takes to get, say ESPN, to respond, doesn't occur in everyone. Timmy hit every thing just right. He even did a sell for DGTV and the host instead of grimmacing liked his Chutzpah.

The other point to remember is that this isn't the first time this has happened. In the last year we've been on many local stations, in many newspapers and in Business Week and Forbes. A lot of that was grass roots and some was directed by PDGA officials. It's all to easy to forget or not see, what has been done. Remember also, that in past years we've had sponsors from many big companies including Seirra Nevada beer, Budwiser, Coke, Clif bars, SWBell, McDonalds and others. All of that comes because of the structure the PDGA has put in place. Go back and watch the interview again. What lit the host up as much as any other point was when he said the sport has gotten big enough to have a governing body, the PDGA. Any outsider with any organizational skill will quickly see that the PDGA structure is impressive and will comment on it. Finally, go check out Grunion's web site. He felt he was going to replace this site and the PDGA in 6 months. He is finding out how hard it is to do what the PDGA does.

I want to apologize to Disc Golf Live for using their name when I was looking for those other guys' name. Sorry.

I was talking about those guys who had the PPV web video subscription service that went belly-up, and then they got the exclusive rights to the first year of the National Tour, effectively hanging SportsLoop out to dry when they folded again.

It was not Disc Golf Live. I'm not even going to try and think of the name because I don't want ot get it wrong again.

I'm truly sorry, Disc Golf Live people. :(

Funny, when I tried to join onto that other website, my identity was questioned, my reasons for wanting to join, almost everything but my blood type. Yet, when I asked the "moderator" to identify him/herself, and tell me the motivations of THAT group, I was told to *&^# off, in essence.

I'll take the PDGA, warts and all. Warts can be easily cured. Hemmorhoids tend to come back unless they're painfully cut off.

:o

WOW, I apologize for not posting here earlier. Been a little busy to be hanging out on the message board.

Let me be VERY CLEAR.
IF NOT FOR THE PDGA, DGTV WOULD NOT BE, I WOULDN'T HAVE A JOB, I WOULD NOT HAVE THOUSANDS OF FRIENDS, I WOULD NOT HAVE TRAVELED THE COUNTRY, I WOULD NOT HAVE THE LUXURY OF BEING A PART OF A SPORT THAT IS GROWING AT A INCREDIBLE CLIP, AND A WHOLE LOT MORE! Sorry for the caps.

From the very first phone call to the PDGA to discuss DGTV, the PDGA has been VERY SUPPORTIVE. Dr. John Duesler especially. Thank you JOHN!!!!!! The PDGA gave us $1000 to show their support. We did not ask for it, nor did we expect it, But we sure do APPRECIATE IT!!!!!

Rhett was dead on in his post. I've played and been around for 13 years now and I owe majority of it to the PDGA. I would not have traveled to Cincinatti in 95 for the PDGA Am Worlds if not for the chance to play for the PDGA AM WOLRD Championship. Please hold on




while I hoist my trophy. (still my favorite trophy, my 9 year old son looks at it and it says WORLD CHAMPION, am or not, still pretty freaking cool)

So with that said, Frank the Tank you know I love ya like a brutha, but your post was a little brash.
I see where you were coming from because we all have our doubts and issues that we feel are not right. Believe me, I've been there done that. I've found that making it better by doing something positive rather than fueling the negativity fire, really makes me happy. To be honest, I enjoy running a good tournament, seeing smiles and watching them come back the following year more than I enjoy winning.

If you want to do something positive, take your video camera, film your local event or scene, interview your local mover and shaker, do a product review, teach a group of kids how to play, clean up your course, run a league.......... DO SOMETHING POSITIVE!!!!!!!

Stay tuned to DGTV, more good stuff and more big news coming soon!!!! Sorry for the teaser, but heck isn't that what the media is all about!!!!
See you in Des Moines,
TG PDGA # 9293
www.discgolftv.com (http://www.discgolftv.com)

Chuck Kennedy and PDGA headquarters, Thanks for your informative responses. That is the most information I have received in 5 emails. It seems like noone wants to answer a question so I'm sorry if I had to bring it here.

When you can't attract a bear with honey, sometimes you need to hit him on the head with a BIG stick.

Thanks to everyone for their responses, even you Ching Lizard -even if are calling out my compentency level. I'll just shake it off like a blown 20 footer.

TG, I hope you plan on bringing your partying shoes to DM...

Thanks again..

TanK

Thanks, Rhett!

I didn't think you were the slammin' type and I was right. I appreciate you setting the record straight.

As to TIm, congrats on the ESPN exposure.

Slow and steady wins the race, disc golf is growing plenty fast as far as I can tell. Like some others around here, I've been around long enough to see both the forest and the trees. And even remember the bad shots through the years that left some of the trees pock marked and scarred.

The PDGA has been supportive of Disc Golf Live since the beginning of my show, and to give something back I'll be releasing a version of the shows to affiliated clubs and TDs starting with my next episode. Local folks will be able to copy and distribute the DVDs as they like, such as board member perks, player package items, merch table sales, club membership premium, whatever. This should help generate some needed revenue on the local end, and bring some great disc golf video to folks for full-screen viewing at home. The show will also have enhanced calendar, event, retail, club, and resource listings. Contact me for details.

I'm pretty tired of the "what is the pdga doing?" topic myself, but I know that each time we go through this ritual, at least a few folks learn something new.

Anyone who wants to help get disc golf on their community TV station, give me a shout. Shows are free. Disc golfer pricing!

Joe

Ken - That is a very classy way to respond! I've sent you a long PM apology for my jumping on you so hard.

Timmy - If it was obscured in my post above, THANK YOU for doing what you do to further promote our sport to the masses! It is so encouraging to see the growth in disc golf...although I haven't been around as long as most folks out here, the growth I've seen in recent years has been remarkable! If we keep it up, pretty soon we'll have sponsors seeking us out!

It was not Disc Golf Live. I'm not even going to try and think of the name because I don't want ot get it wrong again.


DiscTV

IIRC, They also got the rights to video worlds one year (instead of Alacrity Media) and never put out the video.

Yeah Jim - I'm still ticked off about that one too! That was PW2002 - the one we hosted! I understand that several inquiries were made to try to obtain the raw footage and have someone else edit it, but that entire DiscTV group imploded in a flury of anger and litigation. We'll never get it because we'd have to sue them to obtain it, and that probably wouldn't be a wise use of PDGA funds. I hope that they experience bad karma for a long time because of that one! Glad that Brian Sullivan is still chipping away at promotion of the sport though!