The biggest issue I see as a reason why AMS are reluctant to move up to open is the entry fees being so much different.

Here is a list of A-tiers coming up...these are all right about the standard (PROPS to the Virginia Open for having the prices much closer.)

Beaver State OPEN $125 ADV $60
Des Moines OPEN $98 ADV $58
Virginy Open OPEN $100 ADV $80 <--------AWESOME!
MN Majestic OPEN $105 ADV $55
KC WIDE OP Open $106 ADV $69

Even if the OPEN came down to $75 and ADV $65 thatwould be great!


One of the biggest reasons that AMS are reluctant to move up to open is that the price is too high for the risk...since you guys turn every word around into what you want to hear, I'll make pictures for you.

Why would an AM move up and spend nearly 2 times as much to SWIM with the SHARKS
http://www.mikebrowne.com/blog/media/1/20040201-shark_feeding_300200.jpg

When he can pay half as much and swim with the GUPPIES

http://www.picturefish.com/images/fish/guppies.jpg

until the entry fees become a little more compareable the guppies seem like a more attractive swim.

From a 916 rated player, I agree. If the entries were closer to the same amount, I would consider taking on the sharks for a few more dollars but not if it will cost me an addition 50%+.

While I disagree on your other points, on this one I am fully with you.


BTW, that list also tells me the VA Open is overpriced for MA1. Admittingly, I may be selling the tourney short -- is this the one at the Grange?

The biggest issue I see as a reason why AMS are reluctant to move up to open is the entry fees being so much different.





And when you throw the trophy only option in that mix it becomes even more enticing, from the view point of an am!!!

Yes it is La Grange and it is AWESOME!!!!

I have been there and would say that its a GREAT event...PLUS TIKI GOLF....par 2 disc golf course with christmas lights hung in the trees that line the fairways...AWESOME EVENT! If it were closer I would be there.

Wow, DGLO's entry fees are high
Am-$87
Open-$152

Wow, DGLO's entry fees are high
Am-$87
Open-$152



Thats a $65 difference and the ADV players always get a SWEET players pack there...tough to justify EVER moving up

DGLO is a great event too

As a borderline bump player ( 956 ) I understand completely what you say. Ive played Open and may do so again this weekend, but plan to go to Am Worlds. Declining when you wont cash anyways isnt such a big deal.
Ive always supported a mando bump at 970. A consistent golfer with a 970+ average will probably cash at almost all the events they play. If your not up to that, why play Open?
At B & C Tiers, Ive played up, mainly to play with the best players, but when your talking A-Tiers and the money they cost, Ill probably wait till next year, and just play half the events for the same price as playing all I want this year.

those prices include a $20 bump for late registration which almost no one had to pay since the event filled early. actual v.o. prices were pros $80, adv $60.

this year's virginia open is going to be the biggest/best ever in the state of VA.

I have played pro in the past without any hope or chance of winning anything. My reasons for doing so were 1) Most pros know the rules and the majority of them play by them, and 2) maybe I'll learn something (golf lesson).

I very rarely play in tournaments anyway. Too busy building new courses.

I very rarely play in tournaments anyway. Too busy building new courses.



WORD!!! I know that feeling ;)

course design is more fun than playing anyway. ;)

course design is more fun than playing anyway. ;)


Scoring the event is more fun than building the course and it gets you home early if you are good and fast with spreadsheets.

Scoring the event is more fun than building the course



Scoring is definitely cooler (literally) than playing the event. Definitely PW2001 and I would guess AW2006 &amp; PW2006...

Scoring the event is more fun than building the course



Scoring is definitely cooler (literally) than playing the event. Definitely PW2001 and I would guess AW2006 & PW2006...



The air conditioning didn't work so well during Pro Worlds 2005 - that Days Inn was a dump.

Here's to cooler scoring work for you, Chuck, at Pro Worlds 2006 in Atlanta. I would assume that in northern Wisconsin it will be relatively cool next year for us at Highbridge. :)

Here's to cooler scoring work for you, Chuck, at Pro Worlds 2006 in <font color="red"> Atlanta.</font>



Hopefully I won't need to get that far away from Augusta to get cool enough to do scoring... :)

Scoring the event is more fun than building the course



Scoring is definitely cooler (literally) than playing the event. Definitely PW2001 and I would guess AW2006 & PW2006...



I will get an ample dose of scoring with a full field at the Virginia Open next weekend. Though not quite as much as I did at 2000 Worlds.

Scoring the event is more fun than building the course



Scoring is definitely cooler (literally) than playing the event. Definitely PW2001 and I would guess AW2006 & PW2006...



I will get an ample dose of scoring with a full field at the Virginia Open next weekend. Though not quite as much as I did at 2000 Worlds.



you'll have some great scoring helpers at the grange also...with myself, biscoe,and ted...maybe you can have the weekend off to get ready for your next event to score :D

Yeah, the usual suspects will be there. Bonday will also be there to lend a hand.

I'll get myself in trouble if I take the weekend off. :D

Last year I was in a very uncomfortable position all year. I was playing good enough to compete for a win in advanced all year. I was not good enough to cash at a consistent basis at the pro level. I agree the biggest factor in my decision was the entry fee price. Pro entry fees need to come down across the board.

I live in the Chicago suburbs & have many A-Tiers in range. DGLO, KCWO, Des Moines, Majestic, Michiana, & Discraft Fall Open. I am only planning on playing 1 of them at this point with $100+ entry fees. I understand why Adv players are staying where they are.

I also wouldn't mind, if the average Pro entry fee was lower.
Say a average of $ 50.00 compared to $100.00- $ 150.00 !!!!!

However , there will still be Pro's stating , there's no money and payout is weak. :mad:Some Pro's will Never be happy !!!! :p TAKE, TAKE, TAKE.............Give Nothing !!!!! :(

Some want a $ 500.00 - $1,000.00 entry fee !!!!! :eek: We still will be playing for each other's entry fee money.

This is where Corporate Sponsors come in and players represent the Sponsors with professionalism and advertising/marketing.
We have to make potential sponsors , excited about being a part of Disc Golf and their continued support is the Best !!!!! :D

Clearly some TDs would attract more pros with lower entry fees. And some amateurs would find it easier to play pro with lower entry fees. That's why you all should pre-register for IOS #3. With our $750 ace pool and trophy-only entry fees of just $10 for pro divisions, [$14 for amateurs], this one could fill early.

That's right: this is just a shameless plug for our next tournament and nothing substantive at all about the topic! :D

Last year I was in a very uncomfortable position all year. I was playing good enough to compete for a win in advanced all year. I was not good enough to cash at a consistent basis at the pro level. I agree the biggest factor in my decision was the entry fee price. Pro entry fees need to come down across the board.

I live in the Chicago suburbs & have many A-Tiers in range. DGLO, KCWO, Des Moines, Majestic, Michiana, & Discraft Fall Open. I am only planning on playing 1 of them at this point with $100+ entry fees. I understand why Adv players are staying where they are.



I feel like I'm in the same spot as well. I'm going to KC, and playing pro (as a result of rides and who I'm going with) only because I recently graduated and I'm receiving the $143 :eek: entry fee as a present.

The PDGA had a good idea with the Pro2 division. I can see how it was pre-mature for our total numbers of competing Pro's at the current time, but maybe someday....
Hopefully before I cash!

I don't like feeling like I'm taking plastic out of the hands of Adv. players when I should be playing Pro at smaller, local events. But, I have decided to try and return to AmNat's again, so that's the way it's gonna be for this year!

Last year I was in a very uncomfortable position all year. I was playing good enough to compete for a win in advanced all year. I was not good enough to cash at a consistent basis at the pro level. I agree the biggest factor in my decision was the entry fee price. Pro entry fees need to come down across the board.

I live in the Chicago suburbs & have many A-Tiers in range. DGLO, KCWO, Des Moines, Majestic, Michiana, & Discraft Fall Open. I am only planning on playing 1 of them at this point with $100+ entry fees. I understand why Adv players are staying where they are.



If you keep on cashing, the trips should be a little cheaper eh? Do you have alot of pros signing up for trophy-only at the IOS's?

Last year I was in a very uncomfortable position all year. I was playing good enough to compete for a win in advanced all year. I was not good enough to cash at a consistent basis at the pro level. I agree the biggest factor in my decision was the entry fee price. Pro entry fees need to come down across the board.

I live in the Chicago suburbs & have many A-Tiers in range. DGLO, KCWO, Des Moines, Majestic, Michiana, & Discraft Fall Open. I am only planning on playing 1 of them at this point with $100+ entry fees. I understand why Adv players are staying where they are.



If you keep on cashing, the trips should be a little cheaper eh? Do you have alot of pros signing up for trophy-only at the IOS's?



There were 3 or 4 at #1 & 2 at #2. Yes, cashing helps pay for trips. I'm 4/4 this year. I think that streak will end this weekend in Des Moines.

I wish everyone over a 940 rating would move up. Almost all 940 golfers have the skill to compete, it's just the mental game they are lacking. If all 940+ players moved up, us lower pros would have a better chance to cash.

If you have been playing advanced for more than 4 years and are above a 940, you should give it a try. You'll probably play worse at 1st, but once you realize you've got the skills, you will probably become a better player.

I wish everyone over a 940 rating would move up. Almost all 940 golfers have the skill to compete, it's just the mental game they are lacking. If all 940+ players moved up, us lower pros would have a better chance to cash.

If you have been playing advanced for more than 4 years and are above a 940, you should give it a try. You'll probably play worse at 1st, but once you realize you've got the skills, you will probably become a better player.



Nice....................This whole statement should be on the PDGA home page !!!!!

I also wouldn't mind, if the average Pro entry fee was lower.
Say a average of $ 50.00 compared to $100.00- $ 150.00 !!!!!

However , there will still be Pro's stating , there's no money and payout is weak. :mad:Some Pro's will Never be happy !!!! :p TAKE, TAKE, TAKE.............Give Nothing !!!!! :(

Some want a $ 500.00 - $1,000.00 entry fee !!!!! :eek: We still will be playing for each other's entry fee money.

This is where Corporate Sponsors come in and players represent the Sponsors with professionalism and advertising/marketing.
We have to make potential sponsors , excited about being a part of Disc Golf and their continued support is the Best !!!!! :D



I've been playing Open for a year and a half and in that time I have noticed a decline in the number of mid level pros. The reason is that it is too hard to cash. When you have 12 people and top 1/3 gets paid, you better hope that there are not 4 or 5 1000 rated players there or your screwed. It only takes so many tournaments before people stop playing because its too hard to cash. The other thing that happens is that the top advance scores don't cash so they are not inticed to move up because thay don't see their scores as competitive.

Now if you paid deeper, say 1/2, more people would cash and the top advanced scores would also be in the money. This would give incintive to move up and the open fields would increase. You also would not lose the mid level and even lower level Open players because the cash line would not be 1000 rated golf. At alot of tournaments in Texas the cash line is right at 1000 rated golf. That scares too many people away.
As for the top rated golfers, you could add all of the added cash to say the top three spots and only use the entry fee money to pay out deeper.This way there still is a financail reward for winning or finishing in the top three without eliminating the depth of the payout.

The price scares me away. Not to mention my lousy golf game. Thankfully, there are a lot of reasonably priced events where I live. rWc#3523 :cool:

I've been playing Open for a year and a half and in that time I have noticed a decline in the number of mid level pros. The reason is that it is too hard to cash.

I'm curious if maybe a lot of players fade away at that point because that is simply the point where disc golf goes from being mostly about fun, recreation, and competition to mostly about trying to take the other guy's money.

The value to an amateur of one of our IOS tournaments is about equal parts player pack, pay out, CTPs, side games and the intrinsic value of sanctioning. For a pro the predominant value is pay out. I'm curious if we need to work a little harder to put the fun back in for the pros.

i took last weekend's payout (div $ column) then used the pdga payout tables to see the payout of a 40% single division (1d $ column). the 3 track $ column is slightly weighted towards the top.

compare the div$ and the 1d$ or 3track$ columns to see exactly how the divisional structure rewards relative performance. this is only one event, but the single division looks like it is remarkably fair. i suspect that even those players who would earn less would not complain about this structure too much.

<table border="1"><tr><td>z</td><td>name</td><td>pdga</td><td>rating</td><td>r1</td><td>r2</td><td>r3</td><td>ttl</td><td>div $</td><td>1d $</td><td>3 track $
</td></tr><tr><td>1</td><td>Michael Olse</td><td>19362</td><td>1006</td><td>48</td><td>52</td><td>52</td><td>152</td><td>$271 </td><td>$270 </td><td>$280
</td></tr><tr><td>2</td><td>Vinnie Miller</td><td>5521</td><td>989</td><td>50</td><td>53</td><td>49</td><td>152</td><td>$262 </td><td>$270 </td><td>$280
</td></tr><tr><td>3</td><td>Epimenio Ramirez</td><td>n/a</td><td>n/a</td><td>54</td><td>50</td><td>50</td><td>154</td><td>$55 </td><td>$170 </td><td>$180
</td></tr><tr><td>4</td><td>Smokin Joe Torres</td><td>12196</td><td>980</td><td>51</td><td>53</td><td>52</td><td>156</td><td>$158 </td><td>$140 </td><td>$155
</td></tr><tr><td>5</td><td>Steven Hemmeline</td><td>23569</td><td>976</td><td>52</td><td>56</td><td>48</td><td>156</td><td>$98 </td><td>$125 </td><td>$130
</td></tr><tr><td>6</td><td>Joel Kelly</td><td>9152</td><td>1010</td><td>53</td><td>56</td><td>48</td><td>157</td><td>$68 </td><td>$110 </td><td>$120
</td></tr><tr><td>7</td><td>Dagon Owen</td><td>14999</td><td>1003</td><td>54</td><td>50</td><td>54</td><td>158</td><td>$158 </td><td>$100 </td><td>$110
</td></tr><tr><td>8</td><td>Alex Downs</td><td>15217</td><td>994</td><td>54</td><td>55</td><td>50</td><td>159</td><td>$68 </td><td>$95 </td><td>$105
</td></tr><tr><td>9</td><td>Matt Hall</td><td>18133</td><td>993</td><td>55</td><td>54</td><td>50</td><td>159</td><td>n/a</td><td>$90 </td><td>$45
</td></tr><tr><td>10</td><td>Jamie Callis</td><td>15609</td><td>979</td><td>55</td><td>53</td><td>52</td><td>160</td><td>n/a</td><td>$80 </td><td>$90
</td></tr><tr><td>11</td><td>Jerry Lee Perez Sr</td><td>9957</td><td>974</td><td>56</td><td>52</td><td>52</td><td>160</td><td>$182 </td><td>$80 </td><td>$85
</td></tr><tr><td>12</td><td>Rob Lowrie</td><td>26322</td><td>925</td><td>53</td><td>56</td><td>51</td><td>160</td><td>$50 </td><td>$75 </td><td>$80
</td></tr><tr><td>13</td><td>Brandon Smitheal</td><td>n/a</td><td>n/a</td><td>52</td><td>56</td><td>53</td><td>161</td><td>$45 </td><td>$70 </td><td>$75
</td></tr><tr><td>14</td><td>Mark Stevens</td><td>18342</td><td>969</td><td>53</td><td>55</td><td>54</td><td>162</td><td>$123 </td><td>$70 </td><td>$75
</td></tr><tr><td>15</td><td>Ian Hovey</td><td>24943</td><td>957</td><td>52</td><td>58</td><td>52</td><td>162</td><td>$50 </td><td>$65 </td><td>$70
</td></tr><tr><td>16</td><td>Jeffrey Hellman</td><td>13732</td><td>970</td><td>59</td><td>55</td><td>49</td><td>163</td><td>n/a</td><td>$60 </td><td>$65
</td></tr><tr><td>17</td><td>Matt Bond</td><td>n/a</td><td>n/a</td><td>56</td><td>51</td><td>56</td><td>163</td><td>$48 </td><td>$60 </td><td>$65
</td></tr><tr><td>18</td><td>Dion Garcia</td><td>21607</td><td>954</td><td>55</td><td>58</td><td>52</td><td>165</td><td>$95 </td><td>$60 </td><td>$65
</td></tr><tr><td>19</td><td>James McCaine</td><td>4206</td><td>974</td><td>54</td><td>54</td><td>58</td><td>166</td><td>$75 </td><td>$55 </td><td>$55
</td></tr><tr><td>20</td><td>Efrain Salazar</td><td>21173</td><td>954</td><td>57</td><td>57</td><td>52</td><td>166</td><td>$32 </td><td>$55 </td><td>$55
</td></tr><tr><td>21</td><td>Anthony Daman</td><td>17995</td><td>961</td><td>58</td><td>60</td><td>49</td><td>167</td><td>$42 </td><td>$55 </td><td>$55
</td></tr><tr><td>22</td><td>Blair Nicholson</td><td>19327</td><td>953</td><td>58</td><td>60</td><td>50</td><td>168</td><td>$42 </td><td>$50 </td><td>$55
</td></tr><tr><td>23</td><td>Pete Lopez</td><td>16986</td><td>955</td><td>58</td><td>52</td><td>59</td><td>169</td><td>n/a</td><td>$50 </td><td>$45
</td></tr><tr><td>24</td><td>Micah Moon Winters</td><td>16033</td><td>924</td><td>61</td><td>55</td><td>53</td><td>169</td><td>$38 </td><td>$50 </td><td>$45
</td></tr><tr><td>25</td><td>Eric Salazar</td><td>21172</td><td>937</td><td>60</td><td>57</td><td>52</td><td>169</td><td>$35 </td><td>$50 </td><td>$45
</td></tr><tr><td>26</td><td>David Vaughan</td><td>6511</td><td>945</td><td>61</td><td>54</td><td>55</td><td>170</td><td>$55 </td><td>$45 </td><td>$45
</td></tr><tr><td>27</td><td>Jon Parmley</td><td>21653</td><td>943</td><td>59</td><td>55</td><td>57</td><td>171</td><td>$35 </td><td>$45 </td><td>$40
</td></tr><tr><td>28</td><td>Shannon Fosdick</td><td>6110</td><td>974</td><td>64</td><td>53</td><td>55</td><td>172</td><td>n/a</td><td>$45 </td><td>$40
</td></tr><tr><td>29</td><td>Richard Hardman</td><td>26296</td><td>920</td><td>59</td><td>57</td><td>58</td><td>174</td><td>$29 </td><td>$45 </td><td>$40
</td></tr><tr><td>30</td><td>Erik Soete</td><td>n/a</td><td>n/a</td><td>57</td><td>61</td><td>56</td><td>174</td><td>$25 </td><td>$45 </td><td>$40
</td></tr><tr><td>31</td><td>Marcus Lujan</td><td>23939</td><td>915</td><td>59</td><td>58</td><td>57</td><td>174</td><td>$25 </td><td>$40 </td><td>$20
</td></tr><tr><td>32</td><td>Pat Brenner</td><td>10403</td><td>934</td><td>62</td><td>56</td><td>56</td><td>174</td><td>$50 </td><td>$40 </td><td>$20
</td></tr><tr><td>33</td><td>Jimmy Zamora</td><td>20375</td><td>981</td><td>65</td><td>59</td><td>52</td><td>176</td><td>n/a</td><td>$40 </td><td>$20
</td></tr><tr><td>34</td><td>Larry Thompson</td><td>20095</td><td>951</td><td>62</td><td>57</td><td>57</td><td>176</td><td>n/a</td><td>$40 </td><td>$20
</td></tr><tr><td>35</td><td>Robby Hendrick</td><td>5824</td><td>985</td><td>56</td><td>60</td><td>60</td><td>176</td><td>n/a</td><td>$40 </td><td>$20
</td></tr><tr><td>36</td><td>Ruben South Paw Campos Jr.</td><td>14515</td><td>920</td><td>59</td><td>59</td><td>58</td><td>176</td><td>$29 </td><td>$40 </td><td>$15
</td></tr><tr><td>37</td><td>Rick Gaskill</td><td>n/a</td><td>n/a</td><td>65</td><td>58</td><td>53</td><td>176</td><td>$40 </td><td>$40 </td><td>$15
</td></tr><tr><td>38</td><td>Edward Miller</td><td>5503</td><td>961</td><td>62</td><td>57</td><td>58</td><td>177</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td><td>$15
</td></tr><tr><td>39</td><td>Mark Bowman</td><td>20495</td><td>948</td><td>65</td><td>55</td><td>58</td><td>178</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td><td>$15
</td></tr><tr><td>40</td><td>Gus Calvo</td><td>26463</td><td>923</td><td>60</td><td>61</td><td>57</td><td>178</td><td>$22 </td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>41</td><td>John Hovey</td><td>24944</td><td>929</td><td>58</td><td>57</td><td>63</td><td>178</td><td>$31 </td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>42</td><td>Dale Nine Lives Hemmeline</td><td>21772</td><td>948</td><td>59</td><td>60</td><td>60</td><td>179</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>43</td><td>Billy Moody</td><td>11034</td><td>939</td><td>60</td><td>65</td><td>55</td><td>180</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>44</td><td>Michael Ynfante</td><td>15596</td><td>938</td><td>57</td><td>60</td><td>63</td><td>180</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>45</td><td>Matt MacLane</td><td>25782</td><td>927</td><td>59</td><td>60</td><td>61</td><td>180</td><td>$20 </td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>46</td><td>Joe Herndon</td><td>23284</td><td>915</td><td>63</td><td>58</td><td>59</td><td>180</td><td>$19 </td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>47</td><td>Lino Camacho</td><td>n/a</td><td>n/a</td><td>61</td><td>65</td><td>54</td><td>180</td><td>$16 </td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>48</td><td>Glen Lubeck</td><td>n/a</td><td>n/a</td><td>60</td><td>61</td><td>59</td><td>180</td><td>$21 </td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>49</td><td>Brad Granier</td><td>24337</td><td>921</td><td>64</td><td>63</td><td>54</td><td>181</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>50</td><td>Todd Golden</td><td>21411</td><td>913</td><td>66</td><td>56</td><td>59</td><td>181</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>51</td><td>Blake Nicholson</td><td>19224</td><td>926</td><td>59</td><td>62</td><td>60</td><td>181</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>52</td><td>Jarrod Christopher</td><td>27266</td><td>905</td><td>64</td><td>56</td><td>61</td><td>181</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>53</td><td>Jeremy Rothwell</td><td>n/a</td><td>n/a</td><td>63</td><td>56</td><td>62</td><td>181</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>54</td><td>Edwin Morgan II</td><td>7359</td><td>920</td><td>57</td><td>59</td><td>65</td><td>181</td><td>$50 </td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>55</td><td>Neal Dambra</td><td>200</td><td>957</td><td>58</td><td>63</td><td>61</td><td>182</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>56</td><td>Blake Baumgardner</td><td>22362</td><td>934</td><td>62</td><td>61</td><td>61</td><td>184</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>57</td><td>Scott Rozanski</td><td>14254</td><td>922</td><td>58</td><td>61</td><td>65</td><td>184</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>58</td><td>Robbie Schroeder</td><td>16164</td><td>904</td><td>61</td><td>62</td><td>61</td><td>184</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>59</td><td>Ignacio Nacho Medina</td><td>25478</td><td>827</td><td>61</td><td>64</td><td>60</td><td>185</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>60</td><td>Thomas Kansas White</td><td>15562</td><td>929</td><td>59</td><td>64</td><td>62</td><td>185</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>61</td><td>Jason Baker</td><td>20279</td><td>935</td><td>63</td><td>64</td><td>60</td><td>187</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>62</td><td>Andrew Romero</td><td>n/a</td><td>n/a</td><td>63</td><td>65</td><td>59</td><td>187</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>63</td><td>Guy Boyan</td><td>27442</td><td>909</td><td>66</td><td>67</td><td>56</td><td>189</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>64</td><td>Michael Brownlow</td><td>28097</td><td>917</td><td>66</td><td>58</td><td>65</td><td>189</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>65</td><td>Jayson Houston</td><td>26668</td><td>910</td><td>62</td><td>67</td><td>61</td><td>190</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>66</td><td>Richard L. Lewis</td><td>15057</td><td>887</td><td>64</td><td>68</td><td>58</td><td>190</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>67</td><td>Guillermo Avalos</td><td>26691</td><td>927</td><td>67</td><td>67</td><td>60</td><td>194</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>68</td><td>Walter Rayburn</td><td>12375</td><td>911</td><td>62</td><td>64</td><td>68</td><td>194</td><td>$40 </td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>69</td><td>Wade Kolb</td><td>22783</td><td>838</td><td>64</td><td>68</td><td>62</td><td>194</td><td>$31 </td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>70</td><td>Jake Walsdorf</td><td>15467</td><td>919</td><td>67</td><td>64</td><td>64</td><td>195</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>71</td><td>Casey Guthrie</td><td>n/a</td><td>n/a</td><td>67</td><td>65</td><td>66</td><td>198</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>72</td><td>De\\'Atra Hunter</td><td>18666</td><td>850</td><td>68</td><td>66</td><td>65</td><td>199</td><td>$43 </td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>73</td><td>Jan Baumgardner</td><td>22361</td><td>886</td><td>67</td><td>64</td><td>68</td><td>199</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>74</td><td>Emily Brown</td><td>27039</td><td>861</td><td>69</td><td>67</td><td>65</td><td>201</td><td>$169 </td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>75</td><td>Gail Repka</td><td>n/a</td><td>n/a</td><td>67</td><td>69</td><td>65</td><td>201</td><td>$36 </td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>76</td><td>Danielle Vargas</td><td>18131</td><td>869</td><td>69</td><td>70</td><td>67</td><td>206</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>77</td><td>Daniel Schroeder</td><td>19158</td><td>863</td><td>71</td><td>69</td><td>66</td><td>206</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>78</td><td>Paige Pierce</td><td>n/a</td><td>n/a</td><td>74</td><td>71</td><td>64</td><td>209</td><td>$28 </td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>79</td><td>Michele Williams</td><td>26923</td><td>796</td><td>69</td><td>68</td><td>73</td><td>210</td><td>$21 </td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>80</td><td>Ana Hernandez</td><td>10611</td><td>820</td><td>73</td><td>70</td><td>68</td><td>211</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>81</td><td>Laura Hovey</td><td>24942</td><td>797</td><td>72</td><td>72</td><td>67</td><td>211</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>82</td><td>Gary Barron</td><td>n/a</td><td>n/a</td><td>80</td><td>70</td><td>67</td><td>217</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>83</td><td>Jennifer Beazley</td><td>26117</td><td>775</td><td>75</td><td>73</td><td>76</td><td>224</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>84</td><td>Ginger Bowman</td><td>22279</td><td>810</td><td>81</td><td>75</td><td>71</td><td>227</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>85</td><td>Darrell Dore</td><td>12051</td><td>761</td><td>81</td><td>83</td><td>80</td><td>244</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>86</td><td>Dan Mueller</td><td>14270</td><td>879</td><td>64</td><td>126</td><td>61</td><td>251</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>87</td><td>Chris Rogers</td><td>24042</td><td>949</td><td>61</td><td>59</td><td>999</td><td>1119</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>88</td><td>Alan Kubala</td><td>4527</td><td>905</td><td>62</td><td>65</td><td>999</td><td>1126</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>89</td><td>Alan Jensen</td><td>6120</td><td>927</td><td>66</td><td>62</td><td>999</td><td>1127</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>90</td><td>Marcus Rios</td><td>24441</td><td>919</td><td>67</td><td>64</td><td>999</td><td>1130</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>91</td><td>John Godfrey</td><td>23447</td><td>852</td><td>67</td><td>999</td><td>999</td><td>2065</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>92</td><td>RT Evans</td><td>21720</td><td>960</td><td>999</td><td>999</td><td>999</td><td>2997</td><td>n/a</td><td>*</td></tr><tr><td></tr></td></table>

What is a 3 tract?

Interestingly, this tourney had a very flat am payout, and it was held on a course where the difference between am/pro scores is less than normal.

It would really be interesting if the PDGA collected meaningful data for each participant. For example, require TDs to report payout and dollar amount that went towards the purse. With this data, you could have a column for ROI.

We would also know everyone's average performance for a given time period. We could then plot ROI versus performance. It would be illuminating to those with open minds.

I'm curious if we need to work a little harder to put the fun back in for the pros.

No, we don't want fun, we want money.

looks great Pat!! I would definately be supportive of that type of structure!! ;)

i just called it a 3 track because of how i did the payout and i couldnt think of any better word for it. i divided the cash into thirds. two thirds of the cash paid out to 50% of the field. one third paid out to the top 33% of the field. this basically means the top third is playing for 2/3s of the money. so the top third get the financial benefit of having a much larger field while the middle third still fights over a reasonable payout.

btw, di you notice that the person who benefited the very most from the division structure, and therefore the biggest BAGGER of them all, is none other than Mr Jerry El Chile Perez? :D:cool::D he got 100 bux more than he earned!

I'm curious if we need to work a little harder to put the fun back in for the pros.

No, we don't want fun, we want money.



He is just one in a long line of jaundiced Ams that wish they could do what we do with a disc...since they will never be able to play as well as the pros, they like to make things up. Saying there's not any fun in the open division to try and make us look bad....Don't get too upset its just a bunch of <font color="red">JEALOSY </font>

I think we lose all ofthose mid-level pros due to the fact that every event they go to, they know that they are just donating there money. You can only do that so long before you get burnt out. It costs a lot of money to play events, and it's tough knowing that you have to put together 4 perfectly played rounds just to get last place cash.

If we had a field of say

10 - 1000 plus players
10 - 950 plus players
30 - 930 plus players

then I think we would have more people play pro, but with the majority of pro fields being over a 960 rating, it just isn't appealig to the lower rated guys.

I on the other hand, love to play with the open players even though I'm only rated 939. But then again, I have been playing in the PDGA for 10 years and most of my friends are Open players, so that is where I choose to play. And to be honest, most of the top ams I have seen over the last few years, really have a horrible attitude.

And as for fun.........the pros who have been playing for more than 5 years in the PDGA are definitely having fun. It was the love of the game that drew us in. I think I can safely say that most of the older pros are enjoying themselves fully......but then again, most of the pros who have stuck around 5+ years, are the pros who cash at most events.

So it all goes back to money.

Our biggest concern seems to be the "mid-level" pro. From what I have experienced first hand with my own game and with others around me is that the only difference between a "mid-level" pro and a "cashing" pro is practice. Most mid-level pros don't practice, they play a lot of golf, but they don't go out and intentionally practice their weaknesses. If they did, they would become a cashing pros. I don't think we need to cater to their mediocrity. I know this sounds a bit harsh, but if you've made the decision to play PRO then you have taken the responsibility of playing at the top level of competition. Get off your butt and practice the parts of your game that break down during events preventing you from cashing, instead of complaining about how much better the other pros are. Also, I'm not too fond of the idea of making the AM and PRO entry fees closer to the same price, I think this too will push for more blurred lines between AM and Pro where we need more solid lines in my opinion.

Just my thoughts, feel free to tell me what u think either way.

A 974 players rating is a bagger in the master division? now 990 - 1000 players ratings playing in B tier or less event in the masters division is a bagger. Sandleman I'm in the right division :) Hurry up Am. worlds :D

If you are capable of shooting 1000 rated golf you are a pro level golfer! If you consistantly shoot 1000 rated golf you are a great pro level golfer. Most players that are 950 and above have shot 1000 rated rounds just not very often. The reason they don't play Open is because the incentive to move up is not there. In fact the incentive is to stay down in the advanced division where your guareenteed to cash. The system is backwards, it rewards a player for playing in a lower division. I don't blame the players for this, it is the system that is wrong. When I explain to my non-discgolf friends how I missed the cash by 1 or 2 strokes while an advanced guy who shot 1 stroke worse won $200 in merch they say that makes no sense, and it doesn't.

That being said, I think the new PDGA flat and deep payout for Am's is a step in the right direction towards eliminating the incentive to play down. In my opinoin there still needs to be some adjustments towards the depth of the payout in the Open division though.

I'm a mid-level (aka mediocre) pro who practices. So, I really don't buy into your theory.

I'm not sure if you made the argument, but if you didn't, someone else will. So, in anticipation, if guys at my rating (974) didn't play pro (because basically we aren't pro level), the not-cashing discouraging effect would simply translate to guys rated 990-1000. In fact, this is already occuring in some parts. I guess those guys needs to get off their butts and practice more also.

By the way, the fact that this pnenomenon occurs is a strong rebuttal to the often made argument around here that pros are only people rated over 1000. However, based on months of "debating" this topic in one form or another, I don't expect those who put forth that argument to get it.

James,
I'd say that cashing in 5 of 8 tournaments this year would classify you as a "cashing" pro. I don't care what your rating is, it's obviously not affecting your ability to cash in your respective professional division. So whether or not you "buy" my theory, I think you actually prove it. :p

I'm curious if we need to work a little harder to put the fun back in for the pros.

No, we don't want fun, we want money.



He is just one in a long line of jaundiced Ams that wish they could do what we do with a disc...since they will never be able to play as well as the pros, they like to make things up. Saying there's not any fun in the open division to try and make us look bad....Don't get too upset its just a bunch of <font color="red">JEALOSY </font>


You are talking about Gwillim_Nation, cashing pro. He didn't cash in some sleazy c-tier in an 8-way tie for last cash to collect $8.50, either. He cashed in an NT.

And he has a dry sense of humor that some people just don't get. :)

James, here is the real problem with the pro divisions in PDGA sanctioned disc golf events:

There aren't very many people who think it is a good value to pay between $60 and $250 to play against you and McCoy, therefore not too many people do it.

It's as simple as that.

was actually referring to the comment we just want money and there is no fun in Pro ;)

James, here is the real problem with the pro divisions in PDGA sanctioned disc golf events:

There aren't very many people who think it is a good value to pay between $60 and $250 to play against you and McCoy, therefore not too many people do it.




The only good value is to play in the am division, that's why the system is backwards. It rewards mediocrity by givnig the best value to a lower quality golfer.

The only good value is to play in the am division, that's why the system is backwards. It rewards mediocrity by givnig the best value to a lower quality golfer.


The TDs set the entry fees. If pros aren't getting good value, then the price should be lowered until they are.

Until you address the value or perceived value problem with the pro divisions, particularly MPO, you will never "solve" this "problem". Eliminating the am division will not suddenly make $60-$250 to play against James and McCoy a good value!

The funniest part of this whole thing is that when you actually break down the numbers and analyze the payouts, the pro divisions as a whole are getting the best deal by far. But I guess the perceived deal is the problem.

Maybe the answer is to pay out the pros in plastic? It would certainly even things up.

Well, I'll agree that paying $250 to play against McCoy is bad for most players, but even in the lowly Masters division, I've never scared anyone away.

Rhett, we do agree that some people are turned off by steep pro fees, unless of course they have a good expectation of cashing. It seems like a no brainer, that unless the open field will fill, there should be many options available to those who are uncomfortable with putting up the whole fee.

Hey pat that payout structure is a lot better then what we have now. I would have made $135 instead of $0 for 997 golf. :D

I agree with gwillim. And his argument is easier to believe as he is a recent " mid-level" pro, whatevertheheckthatmeans. Anyone who cashes in pro has the talent to compete with any other pro. The ones who actually do are the ones who practice. I'd be a whole lot better Am if I practiced putting alot more. I can shoot with any Am, but my putting kills me. Nobody, in disc golf or any other sport, ever got better without practicing. Go ask Climo, Russell, or Shultz if they'd ever won a championship if they hadn't practice their butts off. I think the entry fees and payouts are fine personally. But then again, i'm usually a donator and not an acceptor. :p

Nice sig, we should have a donkey vs. mini throw off!

Anyone who cashes in pro has the talent to compete with any other pro.


I see you are pursuing a doctorate. I hope you demonstrate a deeper level of critical thinking in your "whatever they call the thing you write to get a doctorate."

Just think about the assertion for a minute: anyone could be as good as Climo with more practice. Does this theory apply to people in other sports? Could Omar Uresti be the next Tiger if he just worked harder? Could Moochie Norris be the next Michael Jordan? Sage Rosenfels the next Montana? Adam Everett the next Arod? etc, etc. etc.

In fact, there is nothing about the order of things in any sport, or any other activity on earth, that indicates that every person is capable of greatness, or equal to all others in some intrinsic way. If that is the evidence, why assume otherwise?

Until you address the value or perceived value problem with the pro divisions, particularly MPO, you will never "solve" this "problem". Eliminating the am division will not suddenly make $60-$250 to play against James and McCoy a good value!



Thats what the 1st post on this thread was about...Adv and Open entry fees should be the same, LOWER

The only good value is to play in the am division, that's why the system is backwards. It rewards mediocrity by givnig the best value to a lower quality golfer.


The TDs set the entry fees. If pros aren't getting good value, then the price should be lowered until they are.

Until you address the value or perceived value problem with the pro divisions, particularly MPO, you will never "solve" this "problem". Eliminating the am division will not suddenly make $60-$250 to play against James and McCoy a good value!

The funniest part of this whole thing is that when you actually break down the numbers and analyze the payouts, the pro divisions as a whole are getting the best deal by far. But I guess the perceived deal is the problem.

Maybe the answer is to pay out the pros in plastic? It would certainly even things up.

Part of the "problem" with the "problem" is that it is not a problem for TDs. I think Rhett, as a TD, would agree with me in saying that if one of his tournaments completely filled with amateurs on pre-registration and no pros got in, he'd be saying, "No problem."

If any pros want to be paid out in brass at any IOS, I've offered before and I'll offer again to pay you out at 180%. If you take last cash for $50 and 90 Brass looks like a better deal, or first cash for $300 and 540 Brass looks like a better deal, come see me and I'll take care of you.

Anyone who cashes in pro has the talent to compete with any other pro.


I see you are pursuing a doctorate. I hope you demonstrate a deeper level of critical thinking in your "whatever they call the thing you write to get a doctorate." <font color="red">For MS, its a Thesis; For PhD, its a dissertation.</font>

Just think about the assertion for a minute: anyone could be as good as Climo with more practice. Does this theory apply to people in other sports? Could Omar Uresti be the next Tiger if he just worked harder? Could Moochie Norris be the next Michael Jordan? Sage Rosenfels the next Montana? Adam Everett the next Arod? etc, etc. etc. <font color="red">First of all, you're comparing apples and oranges. In DG, there are no teams, offense, defense, etc.... If you want to compare DG, we should compare to things like...ball golf, darts, billiards, bowling, etc. And yes, when the game involves one person and how well they can hit a target, there are basically 3 things that must be achieved and displayed:
1. Accuracy - I honestly believe this comes with practice and muscle memory, however, one could argue that some people have better vision and the ability to translate what the eyes see to what the body does.
2. Stamina - Some people are genetically inclined, but anyone can build up muscles and stamina with practice and training to compensate for what nature lacks.
3. Precision - this takes practice too. And with accuracy and stamina, precision almost naturally follows. Hell, I bet at my home course I could hit lines all day, good or bad.</font>

In fact, there is nothing about the order of things in any sport, or any other activity on earth, that indicates that every person is capable of greatness, or equal to all others in some intrinsic way. If that is the evidence, why assume otherwise? <font color="red">We are all people, 2 arms, 2 legs, and other stuff, everything functions the same way. Can we all run marathons? No, but DG is not a marathon. Can we all throw 800ft? No, but we don't have to. Why do you think throwing a disc 400 ft couldn't be done by everyone, or making a 40ft putt. If you have done it once, you can do it again. So what stops us from doing it over and over and over???? Practice. The End.</font>

Hey pat that payout structure is a lot better then what we have now. I would have made $135 instead of $0 for 997 golf. :D

exactly! and its better for almost everyone.

If I stayed a 948 golfer, never got better or worse, which is probably true, wouldn't I in the future eventually get pushed out of the cash as more 1000+ golfers entered?

I don't know if it matters to you, but isn't the goal to try and bring in as many people as we can? Cashing is a big part of tournys, but it isn't the only factor.

I believe the top pros need to start working for themselves for bigger and better things. The PDGA should be involved for assistance in greater exposure, but the PDGA is about being professional, not catering to the professionals.

What if, at this point in time, we all got paid cash or all plastic with the same entry fees and ratings caps on all divisions?

The only good value is to play in the am division, that's why the system is backwards. It rewards mediocrity by givnig the best value to a lower quality golfer.


The TDs set the entry fees. If pros aren't getting good value, then the price should be lowered until they are.

Until you address the value or perceived value problem with the pro divisions, particularly MPO, you will never "solve" this "problem". Eliminating the am division will not suddenly make $60-$250 to play against James and McCoy a good value!

The funniest part of this whole thing is that when you actually break down the numbers and analyze the payouts, the pro divisions as a whole are getting the best deal by far. But I guess the perceived deal is the problem.

Maybe the answer is to pay out the pros in plastic? It would certainly even things up.

[/QUOTE]

Why should I be rewarded with plastic , when I busted my B's for 30 years , playing for cash only ?

Just lower the entry fee's a bit is all I'm asking.

My entry fee for the World's this year , starts at $200.00 !!!! :eek:

I have never played AM...........................my first tournament in the 70's , I was a novice at 16......................then I had to play with the men ever since........................or just give up.

I won't quit...............................I play till I drop.

Even nothing........................you have to earn your way to play Pro. ;)

I'm currently a 955 rated advanced player. The difference of entry fees isn't too discouraging for me to play pro. The largest incentives I have to play pro is, expensive players packs leave me with a bunch of stuff I coulda shopped around for and just bought myself if I needed it. The big players pack also eats up most of the purse so by shooting well for 4 rnds I will probably get a disc or 2 which isn't very rewarding. As soon as more adv. golfers are turned off by having a TD do their shopping so he can throw the change into the pro purse they will hopefully tune up their game and head where the rewards are. I imagine if I were to play for the next couple of years and not cash in the open div. that wouldn't be very rewarding either.? I better get tuning! :)

Why are there payouts in the Am divions at all? Doesn't Am mean no payout? If Am's are paid, what's the difference between Am's and Pro's? Being a pro means you are paid, being an am means you are not! How about trophy's, plaque's, trophy disc's or something like that, and lowering the am entry fee's.
All the am's who are playing to "cash" are really jr pro's. Many player's decide what division to play in based on what they can win. Many are "playing down" a division so they can "cash". The winners of the "intermediate" divisions are almost always under par, which indicates an advanced player to me. Often the top ma2's would have "cashed" in ma1, and the top ma1's would have "cashed" in pro. (Sometimes the top ma2's would cash in pro!) The entire system is based not on competition, but rather on payouts!

As far as pro entry fee's & payouts, if you want a large payout you have to have either a large entry fee or lots of sponsorship. Making the pro entry fee's closer to that of the am's would just force TD's to further subsudize the pro payouts with am entry fee's. To get large cash payout's without large entry fee's, the pro's and the TD's need to work on getting more sponsorship!

expensive players packs leave me with a bunch of stuff I coulda shopped around for and just bought myself if I needed it. .......... As soon as more adv. golfers are turned off by having a TD do their shopping so he can throw the change into the pro purse they will hopefully tune up their game and head where the rewards are.



I played in one tournament where the TD lowered the fee's by not having a players pack, and just sold the tournament stamped disc'c at the tournament, and then had the local disc dealer, (a sponsor), sell the rest for him. Great idea!

I believe that the spirt of the word AM means that you do not make cash money by playing in a tourny. The payout in AM is not done by cash but prizes they just happen to give a dollar value to the prizes that they win.

Playing to win a prize with a cash value really isn't that different than playing for cash. What if the prizes with cash value were travelers check's, savings bonds, visa check card's, or something of that sort? How about gift certificates to local or online merchant's (a pretty common prize)? The prizes that are awarded are of a cash value, and are often sold by the winners at the event or a future event, or on e-bay. The problem with the prizes is that to get them requires larger entry fee's, which will keep newer players from entering, and that you have players playing down so they can win the prizes, making it harder for newly developing players to compete. I think part of the reason players play down is because they want a return on thier investment of $40-$100 in entry fee's. I've seen people who are intermediate's play in the recreational and beginner's divisions because they want to be able to compete, but really have no chance to compete against the guy's that can throw -1 to -5 in a round and -10 to -20 in a tournament. Am event's should be all about the competition, not the prizes!

The value of the prize is determined by the TD. You can not change the value of the dollar. A disc that is priced out at 15 dollars by the TD when in reality he got that disc for 8 dollars or lower is not a true repensentation of cash so it should not count a money earned by a player in a sactioned tournament.

Often the top ma2's would have "cashed" in ma1, and the top ma1's would have "cashed" in pro.



blah, blah, blah.

And eventually they move up on their own or they get humiliated into moving up by all the sandbagger comments. It seems to me that the people that really should move up do move up after accomplishing or trying to accomplish certain goals.

Everyone has goals of winning AM Worls but if they don't should that mean that they don't untill they do? Some play better in the majors then they ever did in the amatures!

Until ratings cap ALL DIVISIONS other then open men and women happens ( YES that should happen at this time UNTIL there is enough Added cash to the open division to MAKE those players who can compete and win even last place cash in open feel they have accomplished anything )
Nothing will change
And as long as we have people who care MORE about their division ONLY ( i.e. masters who think they are entitled to something even though they are not the best players on the course on that day ) we shall be in this problem .

There is nothing wrong with wanting to win against your peers but to win MORE then someone who is better then you and does not have the support of the sport and the idea of the game ( LOWEST SCORE WINS everybody else is just first place losers ) it shall stay the same .

IF you are not the best you should not get paid WAY more in a protected division then a person who shoots 10 strokes better then you .

I agree!

Oh and I realize that this was a thread drift BUT if you are going to discuss am to pro you must discuss Master division being protected just due to age . player rating should decide where you play NOT AGE

you should try to play with the 15 year olds when you are over 40.

A disc that is priced out at 15 dollars by the TD when in reality he got that disc for 8 dollars or lower is not a true repensentation of cash so it should not count a money earned by a player in a sactioned tournament.



A $50 savings bond costs $25, so that is not a true representation of cash? How much would the $15 disc cost if I wanted to buy it in a store, from a disc trader at a tournament, or on e-bay?

Master division being protected just due to age . player rating should decide where you play NOT AGE



Don't most sports have age protected divisions for masters and jrs? http://www.pga.com/seniorpga/2006/index.html Wouldn't the women's division be in the same catagory? If you take away the big entry fee's, and big prizes, more people would play where they can compete with players of similar ability. When the fee jumps from ma2 to ma1, or from ma2 to mm1, and you know that if you pay the lower fee you have a better chance of winning a valuable prize, why pay the higher fee and chance getting nothing?

Not only are there age protected divisions in ball golf and other sports there are also " player level " protected divisions ( in professional sports none the less )
Lets take baseball for example .
Double A players are PROFESSIONAL players but in no way are they paid what MAJOR LEAUGE players are paid
WHY cause they know and accept they are not as good as those major league players .
As far as women that is a seperate catigory . PERIOD
the only 2 divisions in disc golf that should get the majority of added cash are OPEN MEN and OPEN women

Oh and for the arguement sake I do beleive lower entry fees would aliviate some of the problem , along with capping divisions based upon player rating , along with most added cash going to open division.
So if you are into playing for money play open if not play in a protected division with the idea you are NOT going to get as much as the open division .

Ok dog, now we are in complete agreement. I think ALL the added cash should go to the pro's. I don't think the am's should be playing for cash or prizes that are based on a cash value, but for the competition and atmosphere that the tounament provides. Leave the cash prizes for the people who are playin for cash.

This is true, but the problem lies in history. More TD's need to offer trophies only to all Am participants regardless of number of players in the divisions. Perhaps just give out trophies/plaques for the top ten in the mens advanced division and top 5 for all other divisions. Now giving away plastic, or other merch is great for players packs.

I would be ticked off if I went to a tournament and found out that half, one-third, or even one-quarter of the added cash went to the am purse.

If a player wants to profit off of playing in a tournament then they should be playing in the pro divisions. And if they want to compete for the big bucks they should play the men's/women's open division, protected divisions should not be rewarded above the most competitive division.

I was allways led to believe that a large percentage of the AM entry fee did go to the pro's and that is why TD's are allowed to get cost on discs and price them out so much cause some of the cash they get from AM's goes into the Pro purse.

Just as a side note to this ,
I have played in 3 non PDGA tourneys in the last week and all 3 I played " pro " whether it be master or open ( 2 of the tourneys there were not enough people so we combined master and open ) .
Anyhow I payed $20 in each of the 3 tourneys and had NO TROUBLE paying and playing for that amount even though at the events my chances of cashing were about half .
Basically lower entry fees ( or as Nick would say " customer forces " ) allowed me to play in a pro enviornment without being RAPED if I lost .
I still beleive what I said above with all the other things that would allow more people to open ( most added cash to open , capping ALL divisions via player rating , even a radical idea of allowing C and B tiers to have caps of rated players who must play in open )

Some people say that there is two sides to every story I personally believe that is a very low estimate. I believe that for the most part the people making posts on this thread are looking out for their own interests Pros want more money added to their purse and ams want more added to their purse and there is nothing really wrong with this. But we have to be aware that all sides have some good points and that is why there has to be compromise. If for example the ams only got trophy's, first all welcome back to Little League baseball and our mommies being very proud of us look Johny finished 10th in the lakefront open now don't get me wrong I like trophys for the top finishers but I don't want a closet full of 10th place trophys. And as far as the most common response I seem to here is well the ams could always play open Oh yeah I am sure there are a lot of 800 rated players out there ready to play with Climo and Schultz, in my humble newbie opinion that goes against what makes this sport great the fact that this is a very non elitist sport you go to any tourney and you will see people of all ages and walks of life and skill levels and everyone enjoying each others company. But I do agree that most of the added money does need to go to the pro purse in order to get those 1000+ rated players to attend plus as an incentive to get people to move up. Plus I guess that there is the other side of that argument being if you don't like playing for the cash purse stay in the ams and play for the plastic :D. I think that most payouts are fair and the majority of TD's try to be fair to all people that put down good money to play in a tourney.

I see your point about the little league mommy mentality. But when I was in little league, we never got taken out for ice cream/pizza if we won, and especially if we lost. I was probably the worst batter on my team, guarrenteed strike out unless they accidently walked me (I was a great left fielder), my parents were only proud that I did not quit, and just kept trying.

But after playing advanced for the better part of two years, and playing in various sized tournaments in different parts of the country, no advanced player is pleased with anything less than top 10, with exception to Bowling Green Am's and Worlds which pulls in 300+ MA1 players you can go top 50.

A possible easy TD trophy format could be for in MA1
Top 50 - Am Worlds and Bowling Green Ams
Top 20 - Am Nationals/Mid Nationals
Top 10 - A/B Tiers
Top 5 - C/D Tiers

This could give TD's a simple standard to budget pretournament costs, and difference in entry fees could be made up in players packs.

I do not like the standard 50% payout for Am divisions, it is too close to the little league soccer mommy mentality, where everybody is a champion and a superstar.

Somewhere out there is the next player who is going to smoke all of Kenny's records....but that is not every player who is out on the course.

OK once again I agree with your points, but I have just began playing (about two months) and have played two intermediate tourny's finishing last in both of them, but I am getting better and could spend several lines giving examples but nobody wants to here that including me. When you are on the bottom few cards that is all of the talk for the last couple of rounds what do I have to shoot in either the last two or last round to get into the payout(knowing it won't happen.) But lets be honest I am almost 30 and just a beginner so I have no real hope of becoming a very good pro maybe Pro Master in 10 years if I am lucky and work hard. But I truly enjoy playing in tournaments and cashing in Intermediate and maybe cashing in Advance someday is a goal that I have. I really believe that if someday I top out at lets say an 850 or so rated player (hopefully I won't) but if I do I should be competive in intermediate maybe even able to play advance on home courses and such. But you would have to agree couldn't compete with pros at any tourney. If this scenario played out and I topped out around there and was only playing for trophys that I would get bored and frustated with the situation and quit and I don't believe that would be good for the PDGA if this happened with other people. However the discs that ams play for are tangible and useful and like a box of chocalates you never know what you will get making it fun which keeps people interested and that is why we need some sort of payout.

no advanced player is pleased with anything less than top 10



Unless things have changed a lot, there were quite a few that were happy to just cash. Even at 45% getting paid. Not everyone has the talent to make the top 10 all the time, and are realistic enough to realize a good finish for them may put them outside of the top 10.

The thing is that tournaments need to attract a lot of players who know going in that a top 10 finish is basically not going to happen. You need to give the bulk players a reason to keep coming out and supporting the elite few. The top 10 players will be there unless the field dries up entirely, the bottom 66% have to be convinced it is worth their time and money.

That is one reason the payout went deeper and flatter and player packs became mandatory. You have to keep the bottom 66% happy, or the top 33% will be playing against themselves. That's pretty much what the top pros are complaining about now. They have done a really poor job of attracting the bottom 66% and are now the top 50% playing each other working toward the top 33%.

If this scenario played out and I topped out around there and was only playing for trophys that I would get bored and frustated with the situation and quit and I don't believe that would be good for the PDGA if this happened with other people. However the discs that ams play for are tangible and useful and like a box of chocalates you never know what you will get making it fun which keeps people interested and that is why we need some sort of payout.


Bored and frustrated with playing for trophies after a while, but you wouldn't get bored playing for a stack a discs after a while when you've accumulated a couple hundred that you're never going to throw? I know I did, which is why I was happy to play a lot of am tournaments that were low-entry, player pack and trophy-only in the last couple years. And when I tired of that, I moved up and now I play for the cash.

With regard to the low-entry, player pack and trophy-only tournaments, I did have an interesting conversation with a player at our last tournament. She is a pro who routinely plays Intermediate with the guys because she's the only pro woman within about 300 miles of us (she competes pretty well with them too). She enjoys playing the am divisions and payout isn't an issue for her (otherwise she'd play Pro Women by herself and at least get her money back every time), but she did express fatigue with our formula of low entry fees and a one disc player pack/trophy only payout. She didn't say she'd rather see a big disc payout, just the opposite. She suggested, along the lines of the trophy-only option we offer in Pro, we offer a player-pack option in our am divisions. So players who don't care to take a disc at every tournament can opt-out.

Basically, we'd have a base entry fee consisting of course fees and PDGA/local series/trophy fees, with an optional add-on for the player pack. The more I think about it, an a la carte style of entry fee building could be a great way to get the best of all worlds. You could even go beyond just a player pack add-on, and have a disc payout add-on as well. That way, the folks who want to play but know they have no shot to "cash" can participate with essentially being forced to "donate" to the top guys.

So an amateur entry would go something like this:
<ul type="square"> $10 base - covers PDGA player fees, local series fees, maybe a trophy fee, and any other course rental/greens fee.
$10 player pack add-on - covers a player pack...custom stamped disc or tee-shirt, whatever the TD has to offer
$15 payout add-on - covers performance prizes at the end of the tournament. Paid out only to the folks who buy in.
A grand total of anywhere from $10-$35 amateur entry fee.[/list]Of course the payout add-on could be varied by division if you wanted ($5 for Rec, $15-20 for Advanced). And if you had any sponsor added merch, you either distribute it evenly to everyone (if there's enough) or you add it into the performance prizes, again only going to the folks who bought into the payout. Personally, if I couldn't give it away in a player pack, I'd try to give it away in the form of CTP prizes and run some ancillary contests, but that's just me.

We did do something similar to moderate success with a recent tournament that we ran with handicaps. On top of the standard entry fee (which was divided equally between the handicap purse and the scratch purse), we offered $5 opt-in bonus pots for the best scratch and handicap finishers. Worked out well, especially for the handicap side where more players felt they had a chance to win and bought in.

Just some food for thought.

--Josh

While I stand by my opinions for trophy only Am divisions, I will reiterate that with trophy only tournaments, I think player packs should be very big to make up for the lack of payout. If an amateur player pays $40 to enter a tournament, playing for trophies, it would be a good thing to give that player a $80 players pack.

I am talking BIG players packs, food/vendor discount coupons, t-shirts, multiple discs, etc. The Bowling Green Players Packs are ideally what I am talking about. With effort, granted a good amount of effort, any good TD can potentially give that much % back to each player. Giving the players 1 disc is not what I am referring to, unless we are talking about a less than $20 entry fee. What I am proposing is not a miracle for TD's to pull off, it just requires planning, effort, coordination, and foresight. Taking care of Am players that way will make them feel rewarded enough for coming to tournaments.

This way you make it "worth their time/money" for the bottom 66% to come out, and you reward the top 33% for their achievement.

I did that for a year or two. It makes for a very complicated accounting. Eventually I found out that players mostly want one of two options: Full boat or cheapest entry fee possible. But there were some who wanted the player pack and no prizes, and some who wanted in for prizes but not the player pack.

Now that we do mostly B-tiers we cannot do the optional player pack thing. I'm always willing to buy back my funny money at 50 cents on the dollar, so it is like an optional player pack. But no one takes that option. They've figured out that funny money and discs are worth about 60 to 70 cents on the dollar if you want to sell them fast in the parking lot.

There are a lot of different entry fee, player pack, and prize structures that can find a market. Ultimately it comes down to perceived value versus the entry fee. Just having someone organize and run a sanctioned tournament well has a $5 to $10 value to most players.

I see what you are saying and anything close to that would definitely keep at least me coming and it wouldn't even have to be that double the value of the entry and would actually really enjoy a tourney like that. It just seems like that some people are trying to imply that the best thing would be to charge ams the same entry fee give them a trophy and divert all of the money to the pro section or do away with all sections in tourneys but open. Now I am not a genius but I find it hard to believe that any disc golfer with any sense that is not rated around 950 would have any motivation to go to a tourney ran like that which would leave all but B-tier and higher events with around 10-20 players per tourney max. But now that I understand what you are saying I really would enjoy a tourney knowing that whether I win lose or draw I would get some value for my money and I could even see how that would motivate higher rated advance to move up and help pro purses get larger. As to whether or not anything like that will become mainstream who knows :confused: but I believe the majority would either enjoy or at least accept it.

.....I really would enjoy a tourney knowing that whether I win lose or draw I would get some value for my money and I could even see how that would motivate higher rated advance to move up and help pro purses get larger.....



See that is what being an amateur is all about. Only pro's should play for profit.

Sure Am's should get "value" for coming to a tournament and not be raped of their entry fee, we all know that the greater % of Amateur payouts/players packs are usually bought at wholesale or donated, so it is very easy to give Am's their "money back". IMO if TD's did trophy only amateur events, with a structured/fixed cost Am payout it would be easier to pad the pro purse with profit from the amateur entry fees. The tournament I ran, I gave away a players pack and paid out the Am's a total of 150% of their entry back and still was able to pump in $6 of every $13 Amateur entry fee back into the pro purse. And no one was dissapointed with the payouts.