SUPERTOUR Pittsburgh Flying Disc Open ---- June 17-18 [Archive]

sandalbagger

May 16 2006, 04:39 PM

Just wanted to put up a post about the 2006 Pittsburgh Flying Disc Open which will be held on June 17-18. It is a supertour event that features 2 amazing courses. Knob Hill and Moraine State Park. Pros and Ams this year. Last year, Matt Orum won the Open division and Des Reading ended Elaine King's 10 year winning streak.

Also, Ameriprise Financial Advisors have donated $1000 to the event this year.....along with quite a few other sponsors. The last 3 years have paid out more than $1000 for 1st place in open.

www.pfds.org (http://www.pfds.org) for more info. Sign up now.

sandalbagger

May 16 2006, 04:50 PM

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/16-1307192903T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=16-130719L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=2903&srv=img2)

sandalbagger

May 17 2006, 08:19 PM

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/17-1636057067T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=17-163605L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=7067&srv=img2)

Here is the new full color logo.

Moderator005

May 17 2006, 10:38 PM

AWESOME!!!

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/17-1636057067T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=17-163605L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=7067&srv=img2)
Here is the new full color logo.

AWESOME!!!

gotcha

May 19 2006, 10:18 AM

KNOB HILL COMMUNITY PARK
Warrendale, PA
18 Hole Disc Golf Course

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0440063877T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-044006L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=3877&srv=img2)
HOLE 1 (white tee)

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0440129360T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-044012L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=9360&srv=img2)
White tee shot plays left to right as fairway has an S-curve to the c-pin green. Only well placed drives will offer approach shots to the c-pin. The red pole in the left side of image marks the a-pin.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0440178707T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-044017L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=8707&srv=img2)
Once you've rounded the corner, the c-pin becomes visible. White tee to c-pin measures 414' and averages as a true par 4.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0440225719T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-044022L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=5719&srv=img2)
HOLE 2 (white tee)

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0440264250T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-044026L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=4250&srv=img2)
Basket is in the b-pin placement for this photo (259' from white tee). The a-pin is marked with the red pole and the c-pin is further back into the trees along the right side.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0440314976T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-044031L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=4976&srv=img2)
HOLE 3 (blue tee)

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0440351183T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-044035L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=1183&srv=img2)
HOLE 3 (white tee)

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0440408123T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-044040L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=8123&srv=img2)
A view approaching the green for a-pin (the gap in the trees beyond the green leads to the green for c-pin...at 492', the blue tee to c-pin is the most difficult hole on the course).

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0440444179T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-044044L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=4179&srv=img2)
HOLE 5 (white tee)

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0440495555T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-044049L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=5555&srv=img2)
A reverse view of Hole 5 a-pin. Golfers are visible on the white tee, just behind the basket's number plate in the photo.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0514247473T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-051424L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=7473&srv=img2)
HOLE 6 (white tee)
The c-pin is visible at the bottom of the hill inside the trees. The green slopes down behind the pin into a soggy creek bed. Great pin placement at 306' from the white tee and 336' from the blue tee.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0514284643T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-051428L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=4643&srv=img2)
HOLE 8 (white tee)
Here are two reverse views of hole 8. The white tee is visible downhill in the distance...378' to a-pin (above) and 444' to b-pin (below).
http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0514327827T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-051432L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=7827&srv=img2)

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0514379101T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-051437L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=9101&srv=img2)
HOLE 9 (blue tee)

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0514425639T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-051442L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=5639&srv=img2)
HOLE 9 (white tee)
The b-pin is visible at the bottom of the hill...white tee to b-pin measures 381'. Blue tee to b-pin is 573'.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0514463191T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-051446L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=3191&srv=img2)
A reverse view from behind hole 9's basket...what a beautiful hole!

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0514514339T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-051451L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=4339&srv=img2)
HOLE 10 (blue tee)

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0514553931T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-051455L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=3931&srv=img2)
If you make the hilltop past the large forked tree in the fairway, this is the view around the corner (basket pictured in b-pin...414' from the white tee). The c-pin is tucked up inside the gap on the left side. Note the bush in the right side of this fairway photo...this same bush is visible at the base of the tree in the next photo looking back at the fairway. This is my personal favorite hole on the course (especially in c-pin :D).

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0515002964T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-051500L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=2964&srv=img2)
A reverse view of hole 10 from behind the b-pin...

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0541034634T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-054103L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=4634&srv=img2)
HOLE 11 (white tee)

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0541103158T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-054110L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=3158&srv=img2)
A reverse view of hole 11 from behind the b-pin.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0541152520T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-054115L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=2520&srv=img2)
HOLE 12 (white tee)
Many of the right-handed locals throw rollers off this tee, but this hole has been aced "on-the-fly" in the 367' c-pin (pictured).

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0541198357T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-054119L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=8357&srv=img2)
A view approaching the c-pin green.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0541241148T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-054124L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=1148&srv=img2)
Looking back up hole 12's fairway from behind the pin.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0541286972T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-054128L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=6972&srv=img2)
HOLE 13 (white tee)

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0541384660T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-054138L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=4660&srv=img2)
Looking back at hole 13's fairway.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0554028310T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-055402L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=8310&srv=img2)
HOLE 14 (white tee)
309' to b-pin from white, 432' from blue...

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0554081292T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-055408L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=1292&srv=img2)
Here's a view of 14 b-pin from the a-pin green.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0554128928T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-055412L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=8928&srv=img2)
A reverse view of hole 14.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0554175652T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-055417L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=5652&srv=img2)
HOLE 15 (white tee)
Don't go in the creek!

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0554229443T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-055422L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=9443&srv=img2)
Another view of hole 15, standing on the white tee...

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0554264473T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-055426L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=4473&srv=img2)
Looking back at hole 15's tee pad...

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/19-0554317802T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=19-055431L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=7802&srv=img2)
HOLE 18 green (b-pin)
White tee to b-pin measures 450' with an o.b. road along the entire left side of the fairway. Blue tee measures 555'. The c-pin placement is down the hill to the left of the trees seen in the photo.

gotcha

May 20 2006, 08:39 AM

LAKEVIEW DISC GOLF COURSE
Moraine State Park
Portersville, PA

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/04/12-0609465467T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=12-060946L&y=2006&m=04&t=jpg&rand=5467&srv=img2)
A reverse view of hole 2 with basket in the a-pin.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/04/10-0817119067T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=10-081711L&y=2006&m=04&t=jpg&rand=9067&srv=img2)
Not a long one, but hole 4 requires accuracy from the long tee. The green is deep inside the trees...

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0301147345T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-030114L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=7345&srv=img2)
HOLE 5 (white tee 228' to green center)
There are many birdie opportunities on this par 66 course, but many come in the form of birdie 3's and 4's. This hole 5 offers the chance to pencil a "2" on the scorecard which doesn't happen too often during a round...

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0301195448T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-030119L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=5448&srv=img2)
A closer view of hole 5's b-pin.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0301231128T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-030123L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=1128&srv=img2)
A reverse view of hole 5.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0301283758T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-030128L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=3758&srv=img2)
HOLE 6 (white tee 675' to green center)
This is one of two par 5's on the course. Gold tee to c-pin measures approximately 1,000'. Tip: stay in the fairway...

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0301338495T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-030133L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=8495&srv=img2)
200' from the c-pin on hole 6.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0301428916T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-030142L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=8916&srv=img2)
A reverse view of hole 6.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0322101489T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-032210L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=1489&srv=img2)
HOLE 8 (gold tee 584')
This par 4 hole is one of the favorites on the course. With a S-shaped design, accuracy off the tee is a must. See the three trees toward the end of the fairway? The next photo is from behind the tree on the left (you'll want to make it past that tree into the landing zone...)

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0322159818T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-032215L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=9818&srv=img2)
You can barely see the pin through the trees...

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0322192425T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-032219L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=2425&srv=img2)
A really good drive might end up with an easier approach like this one...and a chance at a birdie 3!

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0322249202T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-032224L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=9202&srv=img2)
The reverse view of hole 8. Note the white tee sign is visible through the trees in the background (459' from white tee).

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0322284708T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-032228L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=4708&srv=img2)
HOLE 9 (white tee 327' to green center)
Rollers are a common off the box on this hole due to the low ceiling on the approach.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0322376483T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-032237L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=6483&srv=img2)
The reverse view of hole 9 (note the gold and white tee signs visible in the background).

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0326002269T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-032600L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=2269&srv=img2)
HOLE 10 (gold tee 485' to green center)
With the basket in c-pin, this is one of the more difficult par 4's on the course. Two options off the tee: 1) over the pine trees or 2) under the pine trees.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0326057402T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-032605L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=7402&srv=img2)
A view of the fairway from the pines...

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0326091515T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-032609L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=1515&srv=img2)
70' past the pines will offer you a look around the bend. The basket is in c-pin for this photo.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0326141970T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-032614L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=1970&srv=img2)
A closer view of hole 10's green...

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0326231438T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-032623L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=1438&srv=img2)
A reverse view of hole 10 c-pin.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0326279275T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-032627L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=9275&srv=img2)
HOLE 11
A nice view of 11's a-pin green from the white tee fairway.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/04/10-0757058873T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=10-075705L&y=2006&m=04&t=jpg&rand=8873&srv=img2)
A reverse view of hole 11 in the autumn. The gold tee is located near the road which is visible in the background.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0332317390T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-033231L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=7390&srv=img2)
HOLE 12 (gold tee 573' to green center)
Another difficult par 4, especially when the basket is in the c-position. See the large tree (next to a small 3' foot pole) in the middle of the fairway? That is where I stood to take the next photograph...

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0332367250T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-033236L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=7250&srv=img2)
Here's the view standing next to that tree. Good tee shots are able to make it just inside the trees.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0332409666T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-033240L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=9666&srv=img2)
This is the view from the edge of the trees. How accurate are your approach skills?

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0332451432T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-033245L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=1432&srv=img2)
The reverse view of hole 12 c-pin. I witnessed J Gary score a birdie 3 on this hole during the Lakeview Course Championship in April!

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0332498018T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-033249L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=8018&srv=img2)
HOLE 13 (gold tee 300' to green center)
Basket is in c-pin in this image.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/04/10-0808043923T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=10-080804L&y=2006&m=04&t=jpg&rand=3923&srv=img2)
Reverse view of hole 13 in a-pin.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0416197200T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-041619L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=7200&srv=img2)
HOLE 14 (reverse view of a-pin)
Though the tee shot can be tricky (especially from gold tee), this is the easiest par 4 on the course...

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0332546432T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-033254L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=6432&srv=img2)
HOLE 15 (gold tee 852' to green center)
This image shows the downhill approach to the green, approximately 400' to the a-pin. Gorgeous golf hole!

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0423036796T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-042303L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=6796&srv=img2)
Here's another angle of the signature hole 15. The c-pin is further down the hill and to the right of the second dogwood tree in the background. Not visible in the photos is the large o.b. area to the right of the fairway. This o.b. area was created to add challenge/difficulty to the hole.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/04/10-0724579172T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=10-072457L&y=2006&m=04&t=jpg&rand=9172&srv=img2)
Another view of hole 15 taken last autumn...

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/04/17-0503315278T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=17-050331L&y=2006&m=04&t=jpg&rand=5278&srv=img2)
HOLE 16 (white tee 523' to green center)
The other par 5. This view was taken while standing on the white tee. Most golfers require two strokes to make it through the pine grove to the top of the hill. I've been playing here for over a year and I've only driven to the top of the hill once...

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0332588903T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-033258L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=8903&srv=img2)
A reverse view from the hilltop, looking back at the tee(s) through the pine grove.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0333036930T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-033303L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=6930&srv=img2)
On top of the hill, this is your view of the hole (basket is in the b-pin).

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0333081468T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-033308L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=1468&srv=img2)
A reverse view of hole 16's b-pin. Derek Reid eagled this hole from the white tee during the 2006 Ironwood Open!

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0334379651T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-033437L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=9651&srv=img2)
HOLE 18 (white tee 426' to green center)
The c-pin is visible in the distance. What is not visible in this photo are the o.b. creeks which cross the fairway...

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0334421191T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-033442L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=1191&srv=img2)
Not only are the creeks marked o.b., the steep bankside (basket side) is completely out of bounds. The bankside is marked with both yellow rope and orange survey flags. If you end up in this o.b. section, you incur a one-stroke penalty and throw from the drop zone (see sign in lower right corner of photo?...that's the drop zone).

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0334462666T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-033446L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=2666&srv=img2)
The creek behind c-pin is also marked o.b.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0334516459T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-033451L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=6459&srv=img2)
Lastly, a reverse view of hole 18 (note white tee sign in background).

Luke Butch

May 20 2006, 10:52 AM

Is there a fairway yet on #16 at Moraine?

and I am laying up this year on #15 at Knob- pretty sure over the past 2 PFDO's I have played THAT has been the toughest hole on average for me. Seriously.

Moderator005

May 20 2006, 11:44 AM

Is there a fairway yet on #16 at Moraine?

Yes, it has been significantly cleared out and widened. If you look, you can just make out the basket straight ahead.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0333036930T.jpg

Luke Butch

May 20 2006, 03:42 PM

lol

I meant the slope of the ridge towar the hole. there really isn't a defined gap. Thats probably the only part of the course that I feel is not fair.

But I plan on going over the top from the short tees anyways, so I am not gonna worry about it. :D

sandalbagger

May 23 2006, 11:56 AM

that 1 tree will be gone by the PFDO. It has been marked to go for months, we just keep forgetting to get the chainsaw out there.

gotcha

May 24 2006, 08:07 AM

For all you family guys out there, Father's Day is June 18...the same weekend as the PFDO. Sounds like a great excuse to come to Pittsburgh (i.e. "Honey....I think I'd like to compete in the 2006 PFDO for my Father's Day present...)

www.pfds.org (http://www.pfds.org)

gotcha

May 24 2006, 08:11 AM

If you click on the photos in this post (page 1), the images should enlarge to full-screen size.

Come visit Pittsburgh and play in our backyard...

sandalbagger

May 24 2006, 12:02 PM

Wanted to let everyone know that the Pin placements have been determined for the PFDO and the baskets will be moved to the PFDO layout by the end of the weekend.

Here is the layout for Moraine State Park.

B,C,B,C,A,C,B,A,C.......C,B,C,A,A,A,B,C,C

I will post Knob Hill's layout later tonight....we just need to do some small tweaking.

Don't forget www.PFDS.ORG (http://www.PFDS.ORG) has all the info

sandalbagger

May 24 2006, 12:06 PM

And for those Top pros out there not travelling to the Japan Open this weekend, why wouldn't you come to the PFDO????

Moderator005

May 24 2006, 02:05 PM

Wanted to let everyone know that the Pin placements have been determined for the PFDO and the baskets will be moved to the PFDO layout by the end of the weekend.

Here is the layout for Moraine State Park.

B,C,B,C,A,C,B,A,C.......C,B,C,A,A,A,B,C,C

Don't forget www.PFDS.ORG (http://www.PFDS.ORG) has all the info

I like that layout!

<ul type="square">
I like the C pin best on hole two - it plays as a tough par four. Good choice.
Hole three will require a strong drive to get a deuce. I think the A pin is too easy on this hole, and too much luck is involved with the C pin.
Hole four will play as a tough par four. Nice.
I would have liked to see the B pin or C pin on hole 5. I think the A pin is a little too easy.
Hole 6 in the C? Are you trying to kill people? ;) Ouch.
I like that hole 8 will be in the A. That is a very tough par 4 in the other positions.
Hole 9 in the C? Break out the backhand roller. :cool:
Hole 10 should always be in the C, imo. It's not a true par four when it's elsewhere.
I like the A and B pins on hole 11. The C pin makes it a 'tweener' par 3.5 hole, imo.
12 in the C? Ouch. :D
I like 13 in the A; it's a good par three hole there that rewards accuracy with deuces. The other pins make it a tough 'tweener' hole, imo.
17 in the C again? That's the only position I've ever seen it in. I'd love to see the others. I haven't played the new C pin on hole 18. I can't wait! :cool:[/list]

sandalbagger

May 25 2006, 11:11 PM

see ya next friday Jeff. I'll bring your stingray.

gotcha

May 26 2006, 01:45 AM

17 in the C again? That's the only position I've ever seen it in. I'd love to see the others.

B-pin is nice...

sandalbagger

May 26 2006, 10:21 AM

The layout of the pins at Knob Hill will be..................

C,B,C,B,C,B,B,C,B...............C,C,A,C,B,B,C,B,A

That is 99% positive. Hole 5 and hole 12 may change.

Moderator005

May 26 2006, 06:20 PM

see ya next friday Jeff. I'll bring your stingray.

Awesome! Any particular time you'd like to meet on Friday morning? Jerry Gotcher may join us, too. :cool:

sandalbagger

May 30 2006, 11:47 AM

earlier the better. I just got back from New Hampshire and threw a disc about 20,000 feet off of Mt Washington. What a thrill.

gotcha

May 30 2006, 10:12 PM

Jeff/Chris,

How about a 9:00 am tee time on Friday?

Moderator005

May 31 2006, 02:43 PM

Jeff/Chris,

How about a 9:00 am tee time on Friday?

That sounds perfect.

Blue tees?

gotcha

Jun 01 2006, 09:12 AM

sandalbagger

Jun 01 2006, 03:09 PM

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/06/01-1133344338T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=01-113334L&y=2006&m=06&t=jpg&rand=4338&srv=img2)

sandalbagger

Jun 05 2006, 11:28 AM

20 new registrations over the weekend. We are starting to get a great field of players. The pro masters division is huge already!!!! We will most likely fill up by the time of the event, so please sign up early. There will be no saturday registrations!!

sandalbagger

Jun 05 2006, 11:28 AM

www.PFDS.ORG (http://www.PFDS.ORG)

sandalbagger

Jun 05 2006, 02:31 PM

while looking through the discraft website today I founf something amazing. It has a list of the team players, and they list their favorite courses. Well, I clicked on 3 of the players who I know have been to the PFDO before and low and behold, they all placed Knob Hill in their top 5 favorite courses!!!! Take a look

http://www.discraft.com/team_schick.html

http://www.discraft.com/team_horne.html

http://www.discraft.com/team_king.html

Not too bad!!!!!!!!!!! and Tyler lists both Knob Hill and Moraine as 2 of his favorites!!!!!!!!!!!

NOW, why would you want to miss this event with 2 of the best courses out there????

sandalbagger

Jun 05 2006, 02:41 PM

and over to the Innova side, other players who have played the PFDO have listed Knob Hill as one of there favorites!!!! right up there with Winthrop Gold. Not too bad for a 12 year old course.

http://www.innovadiscs.com/team/mike.html

as well as Val Jenkins
http://www.innovadiscs.com/team/valarie.html

gotcha

Jun 05 2006, 02:53 PM

http://www.usairwaysmag.com/InTheHub04.asp

The July issue of US Airways in-flight magazine includes an article of things to do in Pittsburgh this summer: The MLB All-Star Game, the Three Rivers Arts Festival...and the Ameriprise Financial Pittsburgh Flying Disc Open !

The airline contacted the the Pittsburgh Flying Disc Society after discovering our web site. This complimentary magazine if available on every seat of every plane...worldwide! Our web master, Larry Gioia, said within two days of the publication date our web site had received numerous hits from not only around the U.S., but as far away as China! Now, that's cool... :cool:

sandalbagger

Jun 06 2006, 01:39 PM

Here is the tournament logo.

http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/06/06-1004227123T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=06-100422L&y=2006&m=06&t=jpg&rand=7123&srv=img2)

gotcha

Jun 07 2006, 10:00 AM

The baskets at both courses, Knob Hill and Lakeview (Moraine State Park), have been moved into the tournament layouts. The pins will not change during the tournament, but the pro and advanced divisions will play from both sets of tees.

Bring your game...

sandalbagger

Jun 07 2006, 12:27 PM

The grass at Moraine was just cut today. This weekend would be a great chance for you to get out there and practice.

Also the pins are in the PFDO layout at both courses.

Here is the LAYOUT that we will be using

MORAINE STATE PARK
b,c,b,c,a,c,b,a,c............c,b,c,a,a,a,b,a,c

KNOB HILL PARK
c,b,c,b,c,c,b,c,b..........c,c,a,c,b,b,c,b,c

Both courses will be playing tough with these pin placements. Moraine will be a mixture of the toughest/prettiest hole locations, and Knob Hill will require some good shooting to come in under par from the Long tees.

seamusk

Jun 08 2006, 12:31 AM

good to hear about the mowing. I was at Moraine the other day and hole 7 was completely overgrown. I figured there would be attention before the PFDO.

sandalbagger

Jun 12 2006, 03:00 PM

PFDO is coming up this weekend. Registrations keep coming in daily. Get your money in through paypal at www.pfds.org (http://www.pfds.org)

The grass was just cut at Moraine again this morning and the course is looking better than ever. Don't miss out on your chance to play 2 of the best courses in the world.

1st place in Open will receieve well over $1000.

sandalbagger

Jun 12 2006, 04:43 PM

also..........people have been asking. You do not need to check in friday night. You can check in Satirday morning. No need to check in on friday night.

gotcha

Jun 13 2006, 08:22 AM

Chris.....I believe you are mistaken.

There is no Saturday morning registration. The web site www.PFDS.org (http://www.PFDS.org) was updated last night and it clearly states there is no Saturday registration.

Friday will be the last day someone can register for this event. PayPal registrations are still available or else one can pay in person Friday afternoon/evening at Knob Hill Community Park.

Jun 13 2006, 11:13 AM

My buddy Jeff who is up there for work called last night and said he got a chance to play Moraine with you guys. He claims it to be the best thing since sliced bread. I think his words were " It's got to be the best course in the world". Since he was praising the course so much just after being spanked by it, it must be pretty sweet :DMaybe one day Ill break out of Texas and get to play it.

johnbiscoe

Jun 13 2006, 12:37 PM

if moraine is as good as knob hill it is definitely among the very best.

Moderator005

Jun 13 2006, 12:43 PM

Out of the 150+ courses I've played nationwide over ten years, Knob Hill is top 20 and Moraine State Park is top 10.

http://www.geocities.com/the_lung/discgolf.htm

gotcha

Jun 13 2006, 07:07 PM

Out of the 150+ courses I've played nationwide over ten years, Knob Hill is top 20 and Moraine State Park is top 10.

http://www.geocities.com/the_lung/discgolf.htm

What courses made that top ten list of yours, Jeff?

sandalbagger

Jun 13 2006, 10:27 PM

It was fun playing with your fellow texan. Very nice guy. We had a great time out there playing. We got quite a few more registrations today at doubles from the locals. Don't miss out.

You heard it here......Moraine is the best thing since sliced bread.

sandalbagger

Jun 13 2006, 11:19 PM

cheap camping 10 minutes from Moraine and 30 minutes from Knob Hill. http://www.cheesemanfarm.com/camp.html

Moderator005

Jun 14 2006, 10:53 AM

sandalbagger

Jun 14 2006, 02:11 PM

The courses are looking better than ever. The crews at both Knob Hill and Moraine have really stepped it up this week. The grass is nice and short at both courses and looking beautiful.

Come and play some of the best disc golf PA has to offer.

sandalbagger

Jun 15 2006, 11:27 AM

Lots more registrations.

AS of now we have 10 states represented as well as Toronto, and Ottawa.

There are still spots left in the Pro and Amateur division but we have been getting a steady stream of entries over the last few days. Don't miss out. SIGN UP NOW!!!

www.PFDS.ORG (http://www.PFDS.ORG) for all of the info you need.

sandalbagger

Jun 15 2006, 12:33 PM

make that 11 states, as we just got a call from the gateway ams down in St. Louis. Looks like 3 of them are on there way right now.

This is going to be an amzing weekend. Thanks to everyone who registered early and to all of those coming and supporting our event. Hope you all have a great time playing our courses.

And for those who don't know....we have another par 66 course that will be finished in a few months, as well as a promise from the county parks for 3 more courses in the next 5 years!!!!!

gotcha

Jun 16 2006, 09:38 PM

115 registered players so far...

Tonight's the last chance to register for this great tournament. No Saturday Registration.

For anyone sitting on the fence, the Knob Hill and Moraine State Park courses have never looked better...

www.PFDS.org (http://www.PFDS.org)

gdstour

Jun 17 2006, 12:21 AM

my_hero

Jun 18 2006, 08:24 PM

GO GOtcher GO! :D

AviarX

Jun 18 2006, 08:54 PM

anyone know who won Open? did Jerry (Gotcher) win Masters?

the_beastmaster

Jun 19 2006, 02:56 AM

Al Shack won Open. Joey Mela took the Masters to town by 8 strokes.

the_kid

Jun 19 2006, 09:38 PM

The tournament waqs ra very smoothly and the parks were very nice but the courses left a lot to be desired.

Knob Hill Long tees
hole 1's landing zone is really small and would have been better if the basket was in the red pin position
Hole 9 seemed to have a very small landing area from the long box because of the elevation change and the 1st two trees off the tee. I saw Orum throw a great shot off the box that hyzered out a little and he saved a great par.
Hole 13 had a really cool tee shot but the middle of the faiway isn't really defined so you may still have a bad lie after throwing a great shot.
Hole 15 didn't bug me so much but I heard others complaining about the size and angle of the gap relative to the tee.
Hole 16 was absolutely horrible from both tees. From the long you had to throw and then hope you hit the small gap and didn't catch a bad kick and go out of bounds. The short crossed right over 18's basket and this created a huge backup on the tee.

The rest of the course was fine but many people who play on concrete boxes hated the tees. They didn't mess with the Texans who play on natural though, :p

Morain

The OBs at this course were ridiculas. There were 2ft wide pipes in the fairways that were OB and the bad thing was that you couldn't even see them so it was just bad luck to end up in them. The Ob on hole 1 was also pretty bad the right side of tyhe creek had yellow rop and the left side was considered OB if you were surrounded by water. The problem was that there was almost no water in the creek and a disc coulnd't be surounded. Howerver on the side that had rop the rope was 5 ft from the water. This "creek" should have been causual. The OB on 15 was GOOD though and helped keep the flow and keep people from looking for discs in the thick grass.

My complaints of the course start on hole 6 because of the size of the landing zones. The teeshot was ok but there were too many small trees in the middle of the fairway to creat a legit 2nd shot.
Hole 8 was just a little stupid to me but nothin serious
Hole 12 was really cool off the tee but the gap going into the woods was like 7ft wide and 350' away so even the best of shots needed a good amount of luck.

Hole 16 is the worst hole I have played in a long tome. It is almost impossible to get to the top of the hill so your 2nd shot is usually just a pitch to the top and into the fairway. There also wasn't a well defined gap on the hole and the goal of most players was just to get sneaky.

The rwest of the course I enjoyed though.

my_hero

Jun 19 2006, 10:46 PM

...so there!

Nice shooting GOTCHER! Way to go Schick!!!

schick

Jun 20 2006, 08:14 AM

Thanks Hero!

Those are now two of the nicest courses I have ever played. Not sure what courses Scooter was playing? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

MiTTenZZ

Jun 20 2006, 09:28 AM

Shickie, when you coming to Colorado for something fun?? Why don't you show up to the MSDGC? Bunch of people going from Marshall Street straight to PawPaw...

Moderator005

Jun 20 2006, 11:52 AM

The tournament waqs ra very smoothly and the parks were very nice but the courses left a lot to be desired.


Matt,

I have replied to your comments below, individually. In general, I have found that most people (not just myself) consider these courses to be top 20 in the world. While these courses are not "perfect" and there are certainly some areas for improvement, in general I feel that your Texas bias is coming out again. I feel that you are not used to seeing heavily wooded disc golf courses and tight landing areas. These courses are very representative of those found in the this section of the northeast states. I feel it is very unfair to say that "the courses left a lot to be desired" because you've seen very little of them. In fact, I shudder to think what you would say about Nockamixon or some of the tight wooded courses in New England.

Remember that sometimes the course designer wants you to throw a midrange disc and concentrate on accuracy and placement on the fairway over pure distance. Just because a golfer throws a drive as hard as he can and misses his line by 6 inches and kicks deep into the woods does not necessarily mean poor course design. It may mean poor decision making on the golfer's part. 

Knob Hill Long tees
hole 1's landing zone is really small and would have been better if the basket was in the red pin position



That landing zone is intentionally small to make this hole tougher and to make for a true pro par four, but an elite player like yourself should be able to hit that landing zone. My guess is that you ignored the landing zone and tried to throw it as far down that fairway as you could and found trouble. 

Hole 9 seemed to have a very small landing area from the long box because of the elevation change and the 1st two trees off the tee. I saw Orum throw a great shot off the box that hyzered out a little and he saved a great par.


I throw a roller from this tee and never have a problem. 

Hole 13 had a really cool tee shot but the middle of the faiway isn't really defined so you may still have a bad lie after throwing a great shot.


I think the fairway is actually quite ample here. I throw a placement shot to find the fairway, and not try to gun it as far as I can. 

Hole 15 didn't bug me so much but I heard others complaining about the size and angle of the gap relative to the tee.


This hole is what, 200 feet long? If a player can't hit that gap, or save par if they don't, they have no room to complain. 

Hole 16 was absolutely horrible from both tees. From the long you had to throw and then hope you hit the small gap and didn't catch a bad kick and go out of bounds. The short crossed right over 18's basket and this created a huge backup on the tee.


Now this I agree with you on. Throwing over an OB parking lot, or over another hole's basket is are atrocities. I really wish the PFDS would look into re-designing hole 16. 

Morain

The OBs at this course were ridiculas. There were 2ft wide pipes in the fairways that were OB and the bad thing was that you couldn't even see them so it was just bad luck to end up in them. The Ob on hole 1 was also pretty bad the right side of tyhe creek had yellow rop and the left side was considered OB if you were surrounded by water. The problem was that there was almost no water in the creek and a disc coulnd't be surounded. Howerver on the side that had rop the rope was 5 ft from the water. This "creek" should have been causual. The OB on 15 was GOOD though and helped keep the flow and keep people from looking for discs in the thick grass.


I completely disagree. I think that the placement of the OB areas are appropriate, and make sense. If you find OB drainage pipes on hole#2, hole#4, hole#12, etc. you have thrown a bad shot. Throw good shots and they are not a factor. 

My complaints of the course start on hole 6 because of the size of the landing zones. The teeshot was ok but there were too many small trees in the middle of the fairway to creat a legit 2nd shot.


Again, there is risk and reward. Throw a midrange and stay on the fairway, or try to throw it as far as you can and risk getting off the fairway. If you think it's too narrow, throw backhand rollers (as I do) or throw giant anhyzers over the top of everything. (as Barry Schultz does) 

Hole 8 was just a little stupid to me but nothin serious


Was is a "little stupid" about it? It's a great par four! You throw a placement drive to a "keyhole" opening and then an approach to the basket. It's a hyzer drive and an anhyzer approach. It's one of the best holes on the course. 

Hole 12 was really cool off the tee but the gap going into the woods was like 7ft wide and 350' away so even the best of shots needed a good amount of luck.


I have lobbied PFDS members to open up this approach shot up as much as possible, and they have. You should have seen what it looked like before. 

Hole 16 is the worst hole I have played in a long tome. It is almost impossible to get to the top of the hill so your 2nd shot is usually just a pitch to the top and into the fairway. There also wasn't a well defined gap on the hole and the goal of most players was just to get sneaky.


I couldn't disagree more. From the white tee, it is possible to drive to the top of the hill. This hole has been threed before! From the long tee, or after shots that don't make the top of the hill, you can throw a roller that can carry halfway to the polehole, and allow an easy up and down for a birdie four. Remember this hole is a par five. It's not supposed to be easy, although that gap between the trees is plenty wide.

sandalbagger

Jun 20 2006, 12:10 PM

thanks for the kind words Jeff. You can't make everyone happy.

The only thing I would agree about are 16 at Knob and 16 at Moraine.

Hole 16 at Knob's short tee is AWESOME...even though it crosses 18 B-pin. oh well.

The long tee on 16 is not the best.........but 10 years ago when you could throw over the trees, it was much different.

Hole 16 at moraine has 1 tree that needs removed and it wil be done. But don't forget, the course has only been in the ground for 1 year!!!!.

As far as 8 at moraine??????????? I had at least 4 people tell me that it might be one of the best disc golf holes that they ever played. So????????

Matt Orum and Chris Sprague stayed with me saturday and sunday. We talked alot about the courses. They seemed to really like them.

There are a few pin locations at Knob Hill that will change next year.

4 will go to A-pin to allow for some 2's from the long tee. and hole 14 will go to A-pin also. 16 might go to B-pin, to allow for more 2's from the long and short tee.

sandalbagger

Jun 20 2006, 12:12 PM

and as for the OB's at moriane. Hole 1's might be silly??? but it is a creek over there. so???

The drainage pipes are AWESOME!!! if you don't know they are there, then it means you didnt practice the course. They need to be there. They are a major part of the design on hole 2 in particular.

The OB on hole 3 will most likely be removed for next year,. We just wanted to toughen up the hole

sandalbagger

Jun 20 2006, 12:13 PM

and as for hole 15 at Knob. I have birdied that hole 17 times in a row. That gap is easy to hit.

sandalbagger

Jun 20 2006, 12:19 PM

THANKS SCHICK!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now those are comments that make sense to me.

and as for hole 1 at moraine. the left side that was not marked was not OB!!! Only in the yellow rope on the left. And the only reason that it is marked is because it is the same creek on hole 18 that is marked. We figured if were gonna mark part of the creek, we better mark it all.

ANyway. I wanted to thank everyone for coming out to the event. Think it went really well this year. The food after the 4th round sure was nice. Heard lots of great comments and had a great time. We had a great field and it was nice to see last years champ MAtt Orum make it back to almost defend his title. Thanks to everyone who came out and enjoyed themselves. I will see you all next year!!

sandalbagger

Jun 20 2006, 12:30 PM

Some of the ratings seem a little off right now.

Because Moraine played the same layout as last year and Al Schacks round of 57 is rated lower than Barry's round of 60 from the year before. Just seems a little strange.

ck34

Jun 20 2006, 01:17 PM

Regarding Moraine, here are some notes from an email I sent to J. Gary in March regarding his hole quality scores on the PDGA Course Eval. I visited last summer during Worlds and perhaps some of these issues have been addressed.

***
Here are my Moraine hole quality estimates from what I remember from the tour:

<table border="1"><tr><td> Hole</td><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>3</td><td>4</td><td>5</td><td>6</td><td>7</td><td>8</td><td>9</td><td>10</td><td>11</td><td>12</td><td>13</td><td>14</td><td>15</td><td>16</td><td>17</td><td>18
</td></tr><tr><td>JGD</td><td>6</td><td>7</td><td>5</td><td>6</td><td>6</td><td>9</td><td>5</td><td>9</td><td>7</td><td>7</td><td>7</td><td>8</td><td>6</td><td>7</td><td>9</td><td>7</td><td>6</td><td>9
</td></tr><tr><td>CK</td><td>6</td><td>7</td><td>5</td><td>6</td><td>5</td><td>6</td><td>5</td><td>7</td><td>5</td><td>6</td><td>5</td><td>4</td><td>4</td><td>6</td><td>7</td><td>7</td><td>6</td><td>8
</td></tr><tr><td></tr></td></table>

As far as the reasons for some of the marks, we talked about hole 12 with its blind and small landing area and then few landing positions to even have a decent shot up the narrow corridors.

Hole 15 has excellent aesthetic points but it's minimal in terms of challenge for Gold level players. There's minimal trouble on the drive with a huge safe landing area. Even if you short arm your drive, gold players can still reach the pin on the approach. The second shot requires distance and accuracy to pin the hole but there's little control required on the shot in terms of vertical hazards. You can throw a variety of shots to get there with little hazard in the landing zone (other than lost disc) where gold players would likely land even if they're off line. For Blue and lower level players, the hole is more challenging and better.

Hole 6 is relatively routine and boring in relation to what par 5s have the potential to be. No elevation and no OB hazards. Average aesthetics for a semi open hole. We talked about some trees that probably needed to come out. If you've made changes, I could be talked into a score of 7.

We talked about the pinch point issues on hole 8 and the ability to consistently get to the landing area and issues with the blind pin to the right. If these have been addressed, maybe an 8, but there's no OB, elevation or special aesthetics so it would be hard to justify.

the_kid

Jun 20 2006, 01:32 PM

I completely disagree. I think that the placement of the OB areas are appropriate, and make sense. If you find OB drainage pipes on hole#2, hole#4, hole#12, etc. you have thrown a bad shot. Throw good shots and they are not a factor. 

The OB on hole two made you lay up short and that was ok but how can landing in the pipe on hole 4 be a bad shot? That is where most people land that go up the middle right? I never even saw a pipe on 12.

Hole 16 is the worst hole I have played in a long tome. It is almost impossible to get to the top of the hill so your 2nd shot is usually just a pitch to the top and into the fairway. There also wasn't a well defined gap on the hole and the goal of most players was just to get sneaky.


I couldn't disagree more. From the white tee, it is possible to drive to the top of the hill. This hole has been threed before! From the long tee, or after shots that don't make the top of the hill, you can throw a roller that can carry halfway to the polehole, and allow an easy up and down for a birdie four. Remember this hole is a par five. It's not supposed to be easy, although that gap between the trees is plenty wide. 

I actually played with Sprague when he threed it. He had a great looking drive that missed the 4 ft gap 250ft down the fairway. He threw a FH roller and it just kept going leaving him a 70fter. He proceeded to hit it. The fact it that we were talking on the teebox about how stupid the 1st drive was.

sandalbagger

Jun 20 2006, 02:09 PM

CHUCK.

hole 6 has had many more trees cleared and the entire right side of the fariway has been limbed up to really open up the right side of the fairway. But I agree it is not a 9. It is an OK hole. J Gary is responsible for that hole completely.

Hole 12 has had extensive clearing done since you were there. Still a tough hole. If you only played it a few times, you would not no what to do. But playing it 100+ times, you know exactly what needs to be done to get into the woods and have a chance at a 3 in the long pin.

Hole 15 is beautiful. And that is why it is there. There is OB at the bottom of the hill now, so if you cant really really crush one, you will end up in the ob. Which makes you throw a shot for placement now.

I am doing the hole-by-hole averages as we speak. SO far the spreads look good.

What amazes me is the pro open scores on hole1 at Knob Hill

6 -3's
11 - 4's
7 - 5's
2 - 6's
and 1 7!!!!

YIKES.

Anyway......I love our courses. I have played over 100 and can't imagine 2 nicer places to play golf anywhere in the world. The only place can even compare, is PAW PAW.

Also chuck. Hole 15 has a lot of hazards. 1 major one is the wind. MAny good shots get carried off to the right deep into the woods. Just like MAtt Orums did. He tried crushin it down to the pin, and it flipped and went way into the OB. Also, the trees are starting to grow, so now if you dont make it to the bottom, you have to get far enough down the road to have an open approach. If you dont get it far enough, then you have a tricky shot from your lie.

Many things at Moraine have changed since you have been there. MANY!!!! lol. I think you would be suprised.

sandalbagger

Jun 20 2006, 02:11 PM

SCOOTER.....as for hole 16 at moraine. The 1 pine tree in the gap that makes it 4 feet is being cut down, which will make it an 11 foot gap. It will make a huge difference in the hole.

And as for how to play it. You lay up to the pines, throw a forehand roller and then have a chance for a 3 or an easy 4 9 times out of 10. The key is the forehand roller 2nd shot. And it was designed with that in mind.

sandalbagger

Jun 20 2006, 02:22 PM

I would like to know what everyone thought of the event; the courses, the players pack, the dinner, everything that you can think of. We would really like to know what we can do to improve next years event.

I think that the 1st thing, is that we will only play the concrete tees at Knob Hill next year...unless we get them in at blues (which may very well happen) Also, Moraine may very well have concrete by next year.....dont forget Mroaine has only been in the ground for 1 year and 3 weeks now!!!

Knob Hill will play easier next year. 1 may move to B-pin, 3 to A-pin, 4 to A-pin, 11 to B-pin, 13 to A-pin and 14 to A-pin. 16 may go to B-pin. This would make the course about 5 strokes easier (not a bad thing) There was quite a bit of fatigue this year from all the heat and the tough golf.

So...we may lighten up on you guys next year. Not sure what we would do different at Moraine???????? please post your comments or send them to deitzel@hotmail.com

ck34

Jun 20 2006, 02:24 PM

hole 6 has had many more trees cleared and the entire right side of the fariway has been limbed up to really open up the right side of the fairway.

While that's good, hole 6 still suffers the terrain elements and pizzazz I would want in a par 5 to give it more than a score above 6, which is still solid.

ck34

Jun 20 2006, 02:49 PM

Moderator005

Jun 20 2006, 03:04 PM

Hole 6 is relatively routine and boring in relation to what par 5s have the potential to be. No elevation and no OB hazards. Average aesthetics for a semi open hole. We talked about some trees that probably needed to come out. If you've made changes, I could be talked into a score of 7.

I'd agree with this. If possible, par fives should have doglegs, elevation changes or both. Even in ball golf, 550-600 yard dead straight par fives are BORING.

But I'd still take a par five at a disc golf course that's rated a 6 over two par threes rated 7 or 8, any day of the week.

We talked about the pinch point issues on hole 8 and the ability to consistently get to the landing area and issues with the blind pin to the right. If these have been addressed, maybe an 8, but there's no OB, elevation or special aesthetics so it would be hard to justify.

Agreed; 7 is still a solid score here. FYI, you may have only seen the pin on the far right. There is a center pin position and a left pin position that allows the basket to be easily seen after the drive; at that point it's not blind at all.

Hole 15 has excellent aesthetic points but it's minimal in terms of challenge for Gold level players. There's minimal trouble on the drive with a huge safe landing area. Even if you short arm your drive, gold players can still reach the pin on the approach. The second shot requires distance and accuracy to pin the hole but there's little control required on the shot in terms of vertical hazards. You can throw a variety of shots to get there with little hazard in the landing zone (other than lost disc) where gold players would likely land even if they're off line. For Blue and lower level players, the hole is more challenging and better.

Also chuck. Hole 15 has a lot of hazards. 1 major one is the wind. MAny good shots get carried off to the right deep into the woods. Just like MAtt Orums did. He tried crushin it down to the pin, and it flipped and went way into the OB. Also, the trees are starting to grow, so now if you dont make it to the bottom, you have to get far enough down the road to have an open approach. If you dont get it far enough, then you have a tricky shot from your lie.

I'll echo Sandal's sentiments. OB now extends along the trees and all the way down to the tee of hole 16. There is significant risk / reward for a player to attempt to throw over this OB zone, especially with the wind factor. The standard play on this hole remains executing a 450-foot downhill shot to the landing zone, followed by a 400-foot downhill approach to the pin. That's not automatic, even for Gold players.

Jaw-dropping aesthetics, awesome elevation change, OB, length, a pro par four, etc. If this hole isn't a minimum of 8 from course evaluators, I don't know what is.

sandalbagger

Jun 20 2006, 03:17 PM

"Jaw-dropping aesthetics, awesome elevation change, OB, length, a pro par four, etc. If this hole isn't a minimum of 8 from course evaluators, I don't know what is. "

I agree Jeff!!!!!!!!! If this isn't an 8.........I have no idea what disc golf is :)

and it is no easy 3 I'll tell you that much. In 100+ rounds at Moraine, I have only 3'd it 4 or 5 times from the gold.

ck34

Jun 20 2006, 04:26 PM

Sandalbagger, you are not a Gold level player however. I said #15 is a better Blue level hole 925-974 than Gold level 975+. If Moraine is evaluated as Blue level course then I might be willing to give #15 a 7.5 rounded up to 8. But remember that aesthetics are mostly there in disc golf from Mother Nature and designers usually have little to do with it. We give aesthetics no more than a point and sometimes 2 in the hole quality score. As a Gold level hole, especially from a technical standpoint, I'm not convinced it's more than 7 (5 plus 2).

sandalbagger

Jun 20 2006, 05:28 PM

well....Matt Orum 5'd it from the short tees.

I will send you a breakdown of scoring averages by division tommorrow. and then we will see if you are correct in your assumption that it is an easy 3.

I have Knob Hill done for the pro open. The average score for the open from blues at knob was 63.75 and from the whites was a 56.08

I am going to post al schacks card tommorrow also so you can see how he shot an amazing score of 57 from the GOLD TEES!!!!!!! Beating Barry Schultz's course record of 60. Nice shooting AL!!!!!!!!!!

ck34

Jun 20 2006, 06:02 PM

I will send you a breakdown of scoring averages by division tommorrow. and then we will see if you are correct in your assumption that it is an easy 3.

Scoring average and distribution adjusted to a 1000 rating for a Gold course (or 950 for a Blue course) is the appropriate way to analyze the numbers. If you're already entering hole scores on a spreadsheet, send it along and I'll process it for you. ck34 at aol.com.

ck34

Jun 20 2006, 06:17 PM

z Vaughn z

Jun 20 2006, 11:47 PM

A near sweep by players from Grand Rapids, MI....Shack, Treece, and Sue Stephens 2nd in Open Women.

...More to come later.
:cool:

Moderator005

Jun 21 2006, 12:55 AM

The second shot on #15 is similar to the tee shot on #13 at Little Lehigh. This hole averaged 6.3 quality by three evaluators. It definitely has more restricted throw options than what I remember of the likely second shot for a gold player on #15, even with new OB you've added. I'd be hard pressed to say the Moraine aesthetics are better on #15 than the nicely sculpted lawn, trees, meandering river and kilns across the way on #13. Just different but neither better.

If hole#13 at Little Lehigh averaged 6.3, I would question that evaluation as well. With great aesthetics, significant elevation change, water and OB hazard behind the pin, appropriate length, punishment for poor shots left or right (trees / rough) and tree hazards in the middle to contend with, if this hole isn't a minimum of 7 from course evaluators, I don't know what is.

http://www.2005worlds.org/graphics/LL13-01.jpg

ck34

Jun 21 2006, 01:30 AM

From a technical standpoint, the shot is fairly routine and "easy." Pretty straightforward righty hyzer shot with a little more challenging lefty route. Tee and pin locations are pretty obvious so there's not much design creativity needed. I suspect hole would be better in terms of scoring spread if it were 50-75 feet shorter bringing the OB risk more into play (I don't mean the tee should be moved shorter. I mean if the property itself was shorter between the tee and pin.)

Evaluators aren't anywhere near as impressed with aesthetics when doing evaluations as much as players in terms of scoring hole quality. Doesn't mean we don't enjoy it as players and designers. Almost everything about hole quality is a measurement, even aesthetics (golden mean, photo composition). There's length, width of fairways (grass and corridors), size of landing areas, distance to landing areas, basket distance from OB. A portion of hole quality includes unseen measurements such as scoring averages and spread.

If you think of ball golf holes, average public course holes look as pleasing as some of our best looking holes. Hole quality implies the designer actually went beyond the natural features of a course which are a given base point.

gotcha

Jun 21 2006, 10:31 AM

Hole 12 has had extensive clearing done since you were there. Still a tough hole. If you only played it a few times, you would not no what to do. But playing it 100+ times, you know exactly what needs to be done to get into the woods and have a chance at a 3 in the long pin.

It would be hard to give hole 12 more than a score of 6 as long as the tee shot is to a blind landing area, even if there are now better cleared routes to the pin on the approach.

Please click on the images for a full-screen enlargement:

Lakeview Hole 12 (before)
http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/04/17-0502566912T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=17-050256L&y=2006&m=04&t=jpg&rand=6912&srv=img2)

Lakeview Hole 12 (after)
http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/04/17-0503018049T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=17-050301L&y=2006&m=04&t=jpg&rand=8049&srv=img2)

Lakeview Hole 12 (before)
http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/04/17-0503155753T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=17-050315L&y=2006&m=04&t=jpg&rand=5753&srv=img2)

Lakeview Hole 12 (after)
http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/04/17-0503207606T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=17-050320L&y=2006&m=04&t=jpg&rand=7606&srv=img2)
As you can see from the images posted above, we opened up the right side of this wooded fairway. Prior to felling these trees and opening the gap, the blind landing zone outside the tree line was too small. Now, the landing zone is much wider and more fair for the technical approach shot into the woods. Of course, one does not have to choose the wooded approach shot. If the tee shot is placed further back from the wooded fairway entrance, I've seen many successful "big air" shots over the trees which drop through the canopy and land close to the a-pin green.

Lakeview Hole 12 (Gold tee) This hole plays left of the large tree in the middle of the fairway. The second photo posted below this one shows the view from beside that large tree.
http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0332317390T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-033231L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=7390&srv=img2)

This image was taken while standing next to the large tree, looking toward the wooded entrance of hole 12's fairway. A good tee shot will end up just inside the trees near the two small shrubs (aka "roller-blockers") on the ground.
http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0332367250T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-033236L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=7250&srv=img2)

Here's a look from inside the tree line:
http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0332409666T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-033240L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=9666&srv=img2)

Finally, here's a reverse look from behind c-pin.
http://img2.glowfoto.com/images/2006/05/20-0332451432T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=20-033245L&y=2006&m=05&t=jpg&rand=1432&srv=img2)

I personally think this is a well designed hole. Yes, the landing zone is blind off the tee...but so what. It's a gold level par 4. Heck, if I earned five bucks for every blind landing zone I've seen or played in golf/disc golf, I could probably quit my day job.

ck34

Jun 21 2006, 11:18 AM

Heck, if I earned five bucks for every blind landing zone I've seen or played in golf/disc golf, I could probably quit my day job.

That doesn't make those holes good. Now, those who design courses are getting called out on it via the evaluation process. Blind shots are hard to avoid on hilly and wooded sites which provide the raw material for the best holes. However, there are better ways to do blind holes than others. In the case where it's a 2-shot hole, the landing area has to be much more forgiving if it's blind than if it can be seen like the example hole photo I posted above.

For example, imagine if there were an OB pond covering maybe 10-20% of the hole 12 landing area. Would that be fair or just random luck for players to take an OB? Even though you don't have an OB, landing in certain areas can be the equivalent of a penalty if there's no next shot. Throwing a thumber thru a canopy should never be considered a designed "route," just an option.

I would imagine it's particularly hard for lefties to make the tee shot and land in the appropriate spot. Imagine hole 12 as a mirror image and consider the challenge.

Moderator005

Jun 21 2006, 12:17 PM

I would imagine it's particularly hard for lefties to make the tee shot and land in the appropriate spot. Imagine hole 12 as a mirror image and consider the challenge.

I'd think it would be a fairly easy anhyzer with a understable driver or midrange. Or a backhand roller. Or a sidearm.

sandalbagger

Jun 21 2006, 12:52 PM

the more stuff I read from you Chuck, the more I wonder......

that being said. The best shot I ever saw on hole 12 was a righty sidearm. not much different than a lefty anhyzer.

and also, hole 10 at Moraine...you might think is lefty unfriendly..........but what did Joey Mela do??? thrrew a roller which worked as well as any righty hyzer???

If you cant hit the gap on hole 12, you deserve to get a 5 on the hole. It is a huge gap. so what if it is blind, walk up 25 feet and you can see the pin.

It is designed as a tough par 4.

And actually, I think blind holes are great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Hole 1 at Knob Hill at C-pin......one of the best holes ever!!!!!!

Perhaps the course evaluator needs some rethinking

sandalbagger

Jun 21 2006, 12:53 PM

also.. Aesthetics are one of the major factors of a good golf hole, in my opinion at least.

and as for hole 12 ... it is very fair..........but then again you are not a fan of Paw Paw, and that hole was designed with the idea of having a hole that reminded us locals of Paw Paw which we all love. Granted, there are 3 or 4 holes that could use a few trees taken out, overall, I think Paw Paw has 2 of the top 5 courses in the world

sandalbagger

Jun 21 2006, 01:01 PM

Lst and most important........

If anyone knows how I can get in touch with JUSTIN MADORE let me know as I found his blue valkyrie on the course this wekeend.

gotcha

Jun 21 2006, 01:17 PM

Heck, if I earned five bucks for every blind landing zone I've seen or played in golf/disc golf, I could probably quit my day job.

That doesn't make those holes good.
 It doesn't make them bad, either. It all depends on the particular hole design. Unfortunately, I've seen more bad than good (+/- 200 courses). 

Now, those who design courses are getting called out on it via the evaluation process. Blind shots are hard to avoid on hilly and wooded sites which provide the raw material for the best holes. However, there are better ways to do blind holes than others. In the case where it's a 2-shot hole, the landing area has to be much more forgiving if it's blind than if it can be seen like the example hole photo I posted above.
 That is exactly what we did with the wooded opening on hole 12. What is not seen in the photos I attached above is the additional clearing we conducted outside the tree line and surrounding the landing area. The removal of numerous low branches, Russian Olives, etc. has opened up the landing zone significantly. Granted, if one finds his tee shot too far left or too far right of the landing area, it will be more difficult to avoid an extra stroke on the hole. 

For example, imagine if there were an OB pond covering maybe 10-20% of the hole 12 landing area. Would that be fair or just random luck for players to take an OB?
 What's the point of this hypothetical OB scenerio in relation to this particular hole? [i]

Even though you don't have an OB, landing in certain areas can be the equivalent of a penalty if there's no next shot.
[i] Exactly. That is precisely the way this hole was designed. Hit the landing zone, you'll be rewarded with a look down one of the three corridors. Miss the zone.... :( Isn't that the case for most well designed holes?


Throwing a thumber thru a canopy should never be considered a designed "route," just an option.
 I concur. By the way, those "over the top" shots I've seen on hole 12 have not been pancakes...they've been huge RH backhand throws. Risk vs reward...especially considering we enforce the 2-meter rule on this course.

I would imagine it's particularly hard for lefties to make the tee shot and land in the appropriate spot. Imagine hole 12 as a mirror image and consider the challenge.
 I would take that challenge in a heartbeat.

I was lucky enough to have played with a couple of lefties this weekend: Joe Mela and Robin Billig. These two guys executed some magnificent left handed shots on several right to left holes. I had always thought this course leaned strongly in favor of the right handed player, but these two guys showed me a different perspective.

For hole 12, both of them placed backhand rollers around the bend with a nice look down the fairway. Heck, Joey's lefty roller ended up better than my righty air hyzer (like that's a surprise). 

During the Ironwood Open this past April, Chris Deitzel and I watched several lefties play hole 12. One lefty in particular threw a magnificent forearm drive which penetrated the wood line perfectly, setting him up for a clean look down the chute to the green. We also witnessed a few good righty forearm shots that made it into the landing zone with ease.

I would agree that J Gary's design score of "8" is too high for this hole, but I think your original assessment of a "4" is too low. In all fairness, Chuck, you visited Lakeview after it was only in the ground for a handful of months. A lot has changed since you last saw it and I think you would be impressed with a lot of the work which has been done with this gold level course. Hole 12 deserves a design score of 6.5 in my opinion. 

 I believe one of the reasons many challenging courses receive criticism from out-of-towners is simply due to the fact those individuals are unfamiliar with the holes. Anyone who shows up to a sanctioned event and plays a course "blind" has no room to complain about design...especially gold level courses like Lakeview, Idlewild, Highbridge, etc. You won't find Phil, Tiger or Vijay showing up for an "A-tier" on Friday night or Saturday morning and playing the course blind. Any disc golfer who seriously wants to compete in an event must get to know the course prior to the tournament. The other reason blue or gold level courses may receive some criticism is because a few of these critics are still in the ignorant mindset that every hole is a par 3. Hopefully, time (or natural selection) will take care of that idiotic way of thinking.

the_kid

Jun 21 2006, 02:23 PM

sandalbagger

Jun 21 2006, 02:32 PM

scooter. you got to realize that that is a par 4 hole. I threw a roller the 1st round from 50 feet outside of the woods and had a putt for 3. I saw 1-3,2-4's and a 5. But it is a par 4 hole and it is not meant to be an easy gap to hit. Not in the least bit. In fact I was really upset when the hole was made easier. You are not supposed to hit that gap every time. And if you do not hit it, the player who knows how to scramble, is the player who will play the hole well. It is not supposed to be an easy 3 and there should almost never even be a chance for a 2 on that hole. That is how it was designed......good or bad, that is the way the hole is meant to play.

the_kid

Jun 21 2006, 02:34 PM

The fact is that it is luck to get in the gap! The guy I saw hit it only made it in becasuse he hit a tree and it deflected his disc in.

sandalbagger

Jun 21 2006, 02:44 PM

hitting a 10 foot gap 50 feet in fron tof you is not luck. And if you actually throw a good drive, you can get deep into the woods and almost land at the gap.

I have seen J Gary Dropcho 3 this hole from the long tee as well as Sid Olcott (920 rated) get a 3 from gold. Granted, we play the course all the time. But that just shows that someone who knows how to play the hole, knows where to throw there tee shot. If you dont penetrate the woods, it is a very tough second shot and you need to be absolutely precise.

But if you are not in the woods and are trying to crush a driver through the gap to get a 3, you probably wont make it. The best second shots on that hole are with a putter or midrange. It is best to use a short shot to get you to the hill where the A-pin is. From there you throw another putter and get your 4. Using a driver through that gap for the 3, will most likely punish you. And that is what we were hoping for.

You have to realize that there are many shots on that course that call for a midrange driver instead of a driver. Like hole 8. Your best shot is a roc to tha gap and then a controlled shot to the green. A driver over the top works, but may get you in trouble.

its all about risk and reward. as a player, you have to take that into consideration. Id like to see what you thought after you played the hole 20+ times. I think you would learn alot and possibly have a differenent opinion on it...maybe not.

But if you are upset that you cant crush your second shot up tehre to get a 3...then thats too bad, because it is one of the hardest holes to get a 3 on. In 1 year, there have only been 2 recorded 3's from the gold to to the C-pin. And that is what we like to see. We don't want you to get a 3. If you can hit the 2nd shot with a driver and get it down there for a 3, great. but you really are supposed to just play a 200 foot 2nd shot to get in good position of r a 3rd shot.

I'd love to give you a personal tour of the course, maybe you'd notice a lot of different things.

I might only be a 940 rated player, but I consistently play 970+ on the golds out there because I have learned that power is not important at the course. It is all about control. If you dont hit the fairways at Moraine, you are in for a bad day. BUt stay in the middle and the course starts to open up for you.

sandalbagger

Jun 21 2006, 02:53 PM

the problem is that most people dont try to throw a 150-200 foot second shot. They try the crushing driver 300 feet through a small gap to try for a 3 and usually fail miserably. Which is what we wanted. Sometimes you just have to lay up.

sandalbagger

Jun 21 2006, 03:09 PM

"Two great courses all in one fun weekend, what else could you want? Great job everyone, I loved Moraine can't wait to have another go at it!! Thanks"

From Lisa Warner on www.columbusdiscgolf.com (http://www.columbusdiscgolf.com) message forum

Fats

Jun 21 2006, 03:18 PM

What amazes me is the pro open scores on hole1 at Knob Hill

and 1 7!!!!

YIKES!

Haha, you called me a "pro!" Hahaha! A 7 is what you get when you hit those first trees on the left and you get kicked back to the teebox, only 5' left in the trees where you no longer have a clear lane. It was nail in that round's coffin.

sandalbagger

Jun 21 2006, 03:20 PM

nice playing with you again Derek. Hope you had a fun time. Enjoyed the challenge and leave with good memories. That was a fun 1st round with you, me, orum and moser.

ck34

Jun 21 2006, 03:39 PM

It's hard not to come off as critical instead of instructional which has been my intention. For the record, I really enjoyed the tour of Moraine and saw its potential. Since I haven't been back to see the changes, I can't comment specifically.

No matter what hole it is anywhere in the country, there will be at least a 1 point deduction in hole quality for blind shots no matter how good the hole is otherwise. That's supported by the designer's group and those who developed the evaluation. We all recognize that blind shots are sometimes necessary but should rarely be a deliberate choice if it can be avoided.

Assuming it's a necessity here for hole 12, the idea is to do it the best way possible under the circumstances. With proper clearing/widening of the approach corridors, I can see a 6.5 quality for the hole. I got the impression that rollers were somehow prevented but lefties using that option makes sense. I still think you would get lots of complaints if that hole was mirrored and righties had to primarily rely on a roller (or forehand) to hit a blind landing area.

Regarding Paw Paw, I don't dislike it for what it is which is a glorious private site for disc golf. My problem is a preference for courses where holes are designed to reward skill versus some that are deliberately designed to bring more luck into the equation. Even the crossing fairways are tolerable even though that violates Design 101. Skillfull players still win at Paw Paw events but the potential scoring spread is increased such that the incremental aspect of luck added to the challenge is more likely to carry the day at the top. As a positive note, I don't remember any blind holes that were inappropriate at Paw Paw. Holes 2, 3, 4 and 12 all do blind pins the "proper" way. Of course, in some cases the safe landing area is only 100 feet off the tee so it's easy to see. :)

Jun 21 2006, 04:23 PM

seamusk

Jun 21 2006, 05:37 PM

No matter what hole it is anywhere in the country, there will be at least a 1 point deduction in hole quality for blind shots no matter how good the hole is otherwise. That's supported by the designer's group and those who developed the evaluation. We all recognize that blind shots are sometimes necessary but should rarely be a deliberate choice if it can be avoided.

I can understand wanting to avoid blind shots as a general principle, but it seems that in the long-term, you need to have blind shots in order to build blue and gold level courses that aren't more of the same shots over and over again. personally, I'd rather see less manipulation of the natural environment and a blind shot, than the clearing that would be required to make a par-4 or par-5 nonblind. But i'm a tree hugger.

I'm just a lowly 830 player, but I can see that these shots are more about skill than luck. Of course, any wooded hole is going to have its elements of luck. I would think that the key is to maintain a strong skill to luck ratio, not rule out all luck. I don't play the golds, but from the whites, it only took a couple rounds to figure out where that drive on 12 needs to go. And I know that my inability to put the disc accurately where it needs to go is why I can't seem to par 12 even with a good tee shot. I really cannot see how that hole is about luck.

ck34

Jun 21 2006, 05:59 PM

The "luck" on 12 isn't so much about a gold player being able to land there. I believe that non-wooded landing area is big enough. The issue was about the viability of the positions to make the next throw. If the desireable landing positions are a patchwork of 4x8 disconnected strips, then hitting one of those is luck. When I asked J. Gary las t summer where are the spots he would like to land, they were small disconnected patches.

Assuming the clearing of the wooded corridors has been done per the photos posted earlier, then hopefully the desired landing area is now a larger connected area where all positions are reasonably equal in terms of the abilty of a gold player to execute a skillful approach throw. If there are three corridors roughly facing the same direction, it's going to restrict the ideal angles after a blind landing unless what you're calling corridors is really just scattered trees creating three possible routes not actually lines of trees. Scattered trees shaping the approach routes would make the blind landing much more uniform and skill friendly for the approach because a wider variety of throws could be made.

WVOmorningwood

Jun 21 2006, 06:30 PM

aspect of luck added to the challenge

Chuck is that because you have none?

nudediscgolfer

Jun 21 2006, 06:35 PM

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PDGA C-Tier event
June 24th at Paw Paw,WV (Spencer� Course)�

One Crossing Fairway - Two Ponds - Three Outhouses - A Bunch of LUCKY Blind Shot Holes in the Woods and in the Open
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ALL Pro divisions $40
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2 rounds of 18 holes (Woodshed & Whippin' Post)

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DIRECTIONS USE A MAP

FROM WEST
- I 68 to Cumberland, MD (EXIT 43B)
- Follow signs to MD 51 south 1.1 miles to light (EXXON)
- Go 24.1 miles on MD 51 south to brigde road becomes Rt. 9
- Go 1.9 miles on Rt. 9 to DETOUR RD at bottom of hill turn LEFT
- Go 4.4 miles to STOP SIGN.
- Go STRIGHT thru SIGN road becomes MAGNOLIA RD.
- Go 1 mile to GAITHER RD turn RIGHT.
- Go 1.2 miles and BARN is on RIGHT.

FROM NORTH
- I 70 to (EXIT 1B) Rt. 522 south to Berkeley Springs.
- Go to first light turn RIGHT on Rt. 9 west.
- Go 7.8 miles to DETOUR RD. turn RIGHT.
- Go 6.6 miles to DEAD END turn RIGHT on MAGNOLIA RD.
- Go 1 mile to GAITHER RD. turn RIGHT.
- Go 1.2 miles and BARN is on RIGHT.

FROM SOUTH
- I 81 EXIT 310 Rt. 37 north/west to Berkeley Springs.
- Go 6.8 miles to Rt. 522 north.
- Go 11.5 miles to Rt. 127 turn LEFT.
- Go 11 miles to Rt. 29 turn RIGHT
- Go 9 miles to STOP SIGN.
- Go STRAIGHT thru SIGN road becomes Rt. 9.
- Go 1.8 miles to DETOUR RD at bottom of hill turn RIGHT.
- Go 4.4 miles to STOP SIGN.
- Go STRAIGHT thru SIGN road becomes MAGNOLIA RD.
- Go 1 mile to GAITHER RD turn RIGHT.
- Go 1.2 miles and BARN is on RIGHT.

ck34

Jun 21 2006, 06:48 PM

Chuck is that because you have none?

Must be. I was always terrible at Yahtzee and Risk since I couldn't get good dice rolls.

It's obvious that millions of people sometimes prefer a little more luck considering the success of gambling and lotteries. Private enterprises have to cater to their market to be successful and Paw Paw does that well. Successful disc golf ventures are good for the sport however they do it so I applaud Spencer's efforts along with all of the other countless volunteer hours (and mileage) others have racked up there.

nudediscgolfer

Jun 21 2006, 09:42 PM

Would like to thank everyone who helped get the courses ready for this years event. I saw a huge difference in cleaning on both courses and play they have received since last year.

Thankx Again KB for Saturday Nite

Moderator005

Jun 21 2006, 10:07 PM

It's hard not to come off as critical instead of instructional which has been my intention.

Chuck, I know your intentions are good.

At this point, I'm not sure that people are ready for the Course Evaluation Program and the harsh critique. I realize that it would be silly for the Course Evaluation Program to give too high of marks to begin with. Years from now we may end up with disc golf courses that "go to 11" and surpass the scales we started with. It's just that a lot of people may have emotional attachments to their courses. I've played over 150+ courses nationwide over the last 10 years and I know a world class course when I see it and I know others do too. It seems strange to see harsh critique for top courses like Paw Paw, Moraine, Little Lehigh, Tinicum, etc. I follow ball golf and don't regularly hear of people for example, nitpicking the luck factor on a particular hole at St. Andrews, Pebble Beach, Augusta, etc.

seamusk

Jun 21 2006, 10:39 PM

gotcha

Jun 21 2006, 10:39 PM

Assuming the clearing of the wooded corridors has been done per the photos posted earlier, then hopefully the desired landing area is now a larger connected area where all positions are reasonably equal in terms of the abilty of a gold player to execute a skillful approach throw. If there are three corridors roughly facing the same direction, it's going to restrict the ideal angles after a blind landing unless what you're calling corridors is really just scattered trees creating three possible routes not actually lines of trees. Scattered trees shaping the approach routes would make the blind landing much more uniform and skill friendly for the approach because a wider variety of throws could be made.

The corridors I referred to earlier are better described in your post above; "scattered trees shaping the approach routes". The early landing zone(s) you observed with J Gary were too small and restrictive for subsequent approach shots. Basically, only the tee shots which landed toward the left side and center of the tree line had any kind of look down the fairway. Now approach routes are available from the left, right and center of the landing zone. One might prefer the left gap over the right (or vice-versa), but at least now there is something to work with regardless of where you are in the landing zone. Unless, of course, you are a disc golfer from Texas.

Indeed, hole 12 is one of the more difficult par 4's on the course. As Chris posted earlier, it is not uncommon to see golfers (myself included) hit the landing zone and then unsuccessfully go for the green with a driver on the second shot. In many cases, that option doesn't go as planned. The resulting hindsight is the golfer (myself included) wishing he had simply tossed a mid-range safely inside the woods to set up the final approach shot.

ck34

Jun 21 2006, 11:09 PM

I follow ball golf and don't regularly hear of people for example, nitpicking the luck factor on a particular hole at St. Andrews, Pebble Beach, Augusta, etc.

Oh, but they do. The pros generally keep their comments from the public. Sometimes they are vocal when greens are so slick that balls won't hold. But they have significant internal feedback either formal or informal that you never hear.

Remember that ball golf has centuries of design development with dozens of technical books, college curriculum and hundreds of landscape architecture books. We have scattered writings and postings for the past 15 years with not one design book yet (Houck threatens to do one) on the topic. The PDGA guidelines are fairly new and not that many are up to speed on them.

williethekid

Jun 21 2006, 11:39 PM

ck34

Jun 21 2006, 11:44 PM

I think that was the Memorial where Jack Nicklaus removed every other tooth in the bunker rakes (per PGA request to test it) to make the grooves more challenging.

Moderator005

Jun 22 2006, 11:05 AM

I think that was the Memorial where Jack Nicklaus removed every other tooth in the bunker rakes (per PGA request to test it) to make the grooves more challenging.

I did follow that controversy.

But that's ball golf where there is big $$ and people are paid. I guess my point is that world class disc golf courses are few and far between, as is the volunteer labor that creates them. A great majority of our courses are still Ed Headrick pitch-n-putts that play around picnic tables. At this point in time, it seems to strange to be so critical and nitpick the few great disc golf courses where the course designers 'get it.' They are doing almost everything 'right' and it should be obvious from the reaction on here that many people don't appreciate their courses being called "a bunch of lucky blind shot holes in the woods."

sandalbagger

Jun 22 2006, 11:15 AM

all I got to say is.............

SIGN UP FOR THE WEST VIRGINIA OPEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks again to everyone who showed up for the event. Hope you had a good time.

Score averages are done and will be posted later ttoday.

gotcha

Jun 22 2006, 11:27 AM

Regarding Paw Paw...

...in some cases the safe landing area is only 100 feet off the tee so it's easy to see. :)

Now, that's funny! :D

ck34

Jun 22 2006, 12:05 PM

At this point in time, it seems to strange to be so critical and nitpick the few great disc golf courses where the course designers 'get it.' They are doing almost everything 'right' and it should be obvious from the reaction on here that many people don't appreciate their courses being called "a bunch of lucky blind shot holes in the woods."

If the shoe fits. Some holes are blind and/or they are luckier than necessary for the intended player skill level (if that's even considered). Hole 12 tee shot is blind at Moraine. It's not an opinion or some emotional reaction. Just some (not most) holes at Paw Paw add more luck (actually don't remove it is more accurate) than necessary on purpose as a stated design philosophy. I didn't make that up. The design group just prefers designing to reward skill and minimize luck aspects where possible on all holes. I can't think of a blind hole problem at Paw Paw other than maybe a hole or two that could use a tall flag on top for visibility (maybe addressed already) but that's true for many holes everywhere.

Nockamixon has some lucky areas where they haven't been allowed to remove trees yet. The designers recognize it and it's not their fault. However, you have to score the holes as they are currently, not how you'd like to see them.

A great site aesthetically does not mean a great design will be placed on it. An average design on a great property will still get rave reviews by players more than a great design that uses every element available on a flat site with few trees.

The average public ball golf course puts to shame most of our best sites in terms of amenities. We have a long ways to go to raise the bar. For example, none of three courses mentioned above even have cement tees yet. The Evaluation group had the choice of awarding the best of our current crop of holes values of 9, recognizing that there was still room for improvement such that a score of 9 would likely mean something much better in the future. Or try to have the value of 9 not change such that it would be very hard to currently earn that score. That was the choice.

We're not talking about scolding these designers who are trying hard. We're nitpicking above average scores of 6, 7 and 8 in most cases. They/we have no established reference guidebooks from which to draw, and we freely borrow from ball golf design principles where appropriate.

For example, I've never seen a blind hole in ball golf. Doglegs aren't blind as long as you can see the pin once you get to the intended landing area. There are areas you can land that are blind such as fairway dips and false front greens but you can see where they are. There are downhill areas after the intended landing area that provide a risk/reward scenario for longer hitters to consider. It's rare to even see greens tipped away from the tee. Flat, crowned or bowl shaped is as far as they'll go from tipping the green toward the tee.

seamusk

Jun 22 2006, 12:11 PM

For example, I've never seen a blind hole in ball golf. Doglegs aren't blind as long as you can see the pin once you get to the intended landing area. There are areas you can land that are blind such as fairway dips and false front greens but you can see where they are. There are downhill areas after the intended landing area that provide a risk/reward scenario for longer hitters to consider. It's rare to even see greens tipped away from the tee. Flat, crowned or bowl shaped is as far as they'll go from tipping the green toward the tee.

don't you think that blind holes should play more of a role in disc golf, where there is so much emphasis on hyzers and anhyzers, than in ball golf? Disc golf just seems to play itself more towards this style of shooting.

ck34

Jun 22 2006, 12:24 PM

Blind holes are inevitable on wooded courses. The idea is to do the best job providing reference points and sight lines for players. For example, hole 11 at Hornet's Nest is a reachable righty hyzer. I think you can still see the pin thru the woods because it was trimmed ('peekaboo' views make blind holes much better). Hole 12 at Moraine could also have been a fine par 3 with the basket in the landing area because it has that beautiful tree straight ahead as your reference point for where your shot should break.

sandalbagger

Jun 22 2006, 12:43 PM

hole 12 at Moraine used to be 2 different holes. 1 to the landing zone and another hole through the woods. They were both average holes at best. 12 was plain stupid as a hyzer to the gap. No skill needed if you ask me.

And as for luck at Paw Paw. Very little luck is needed there. A player who knows the course and knows where to land has the true advantage. NOt the lucky player. All you need to know at paw paw is follow the tree stumps. And if you get off the fairway, throw to the nearest tree stump. That is a major key to know at that course. If there is a tree stump, it means, that is where the preferred shots should go.

It is really not about luck. I practiced that course quite a bit last year before the WVO and managed to shoot my best tournament golf ever. 66-67-68. Not because of luck, but because I did my part in trying to learn the course and understand the way to play it.

And as for blind holes. Blind holes are essential to disc golf, and I dont think they should EVER be avoided. The only time that hole will be blind to you, is the 1st time you ever play it. Once you play it, it is not longer a blind hole.

A disc has so many different flight patterns that a ball cannot achieve. To try to emulate or compare our courses to ball golf is just plain silly. It will NEVER work. We have so much more control of where we can land our drives. If you could see the pin on every tee, I would think that the course would be lacking in some very quality hole designs.

sandalbagger

Jun 22 2006, 12:46 PM

I kmow hole 11 at Hornets nest. It is an ok hole???? you can see the pin, but why would you need to??? or why would that even be considered an element of a good hole?? It just doesnt make any sense to me.

After playing 12 years now. Some of the best holes that I have ever played are the ones when you stand on the tee and ask "the hole is where"????? the 1st time through might be a rough journey, but from that point on, you know what is needed for a good score on the hole.

sandalbagger

Jun 22 2006, 12:51 PM

"For example, I've never seen a blind hole in ball golf. Doglegs aren't blind as long as you can see the pin once you get to the intended landing area. "

Chuck, isnt that what is happening on hole 12 at Moraine?? you hit your landing area and then you can see the pin. So it's not blind then according to you. I don't think it is a big deal at all whether or not you can see the landing area. That is part of what makes that hole tough. You have to feel the landing area. You have to be able to throw the shot that is going to land in the area where you are supposed to. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean that you cannot get your shot there. Why do you need to see where your shots are supposed to land???

sandalbagger

Jun 22 2006, 12:54 PM

just for giggles.

Moraine must be a horrible course from Gold Tees. Here are the holes which would be blind from the tee if put in certain pin placements.

Hole 1 c-pin, hole 2 c-pin, hole 3, hole 4, hole 5 a and b pins, hole 7, hole 8, hole 9 c-pin, hole 10, hole 11 c-pin, hole 12, hole 14, hole 15, hole 16, hole 17.

The basket is hidden on everyone of those holes from the gold tees. We must have the worst course ever made. :)

I suppose you could say hole 6 also, since it is 1000 feet straight away and the basket is about the size of a bee off the tee

sandalbagger

Jun 22 2006, 01:38 PM

and knob hill for fun from blues

hole 1 b and c pin, hole 2 b and c-pin, hole 3, hole 4 c-pin, hole 5 b and c-pin, hole 7 b and c, hole 8, hole 9, hole 10, hole 11, hole 13, hole 14.

And Knob Hill is listed as a top 5 course from 4 discraft pros and 3 innova pros. SO???

ck34

Jun 22 2006, 01:50 PM

A hole is not blind if you can see the first landing area from the tee on par 4 and 5 holes or see the pin from the tee or intended landing area. Hole 12 is blind because you cannot see the intended landing area. However, I agree if you can walk sideways, or not too far up the fairway to see it then that's acceptable. Peekaboo sight lines make blind holes even better.

I believe some of those other holes are not blind because you can see the pin from the intended landing area. Not a fan of long 7 whether blind or not if it's still like I saw. If you could see the hole from the tee on those holes it would be better but no deduction for not seeing the pin on par 4s and 5s.

schick

Jun 22 2006, 04:31 PM

Hey Chris,

Whoever put the money won on the site messed up the scores some how....it has Schack in a tie for 2nd.....

sandalbagger

Jun 22 2006, 04:44 PM

J Gary is doin it. it keeps messing up when he enters the scores. not sure what is wrong.

Moderator005

Jun 22 2006, 05:13 PM

I'm gonna be working out in Altoona next week.

Anybody want to play the IUP College Lodge Course with me on Thursday June 29th?

Chris? Jerry?

sandalbagger

Jun 22 2006, 05:20 PM

I might be up for that Jeff. I will see if I can get anyone else to come out also. send me a PM

gotcha

Jun 23 2006, 08:09 AM

[QUOTE]
make that 11 states, as we just got a call from the gateway ams down in St. Louis. Looks like 3 of them are on there way right now.

Actually there are 4, the 3 guys from ST louis who are pro and my 17 year old nephew ( Nikko) who is an am that will be playing Pro for this event.

Dont let him accept cash with am worlds just a few weeks away

;)

Dave....your nephew played these courses quite well. One thing I noticed is that almost every time I saw him he was practicing his putting......or taking a breather from putting. Does he get that habit from his uncle?

Moderator005

Jun 28 2006, 12:48 AM

Anybody want to play the IUP College Lodge Course with me on Thursday June 29th?

Deitzel, ignore the PM I sent you about playing on Wednesday. It will definitely have to be on Thursday, and I'm thinking around 10 AM or so. I'd love for you and J. Gary and Jerry to join me if you can make it.

sandalbagger

Jul 04 2006, 12:22 PM

check out the website www.pfds.org (http://www.pfds.org) for some great photos and a review of the event