So, I bought a Sparkle Tsunami with the ghost 2005 Am Worlds Stamp.....Long story short....THIS IS THE BEST DISC EVER! It was really windy and my teebirds were unreliable and my firebirds were short. I beat my best score here at my home course by 2 strokes IN THE WIND!!! I could've (if i had putt better) beat my best by 4 strokes.
I heard that the tsunami's are basically identical to a predator. I've never really liked Discraft drivers, except wildcats but got tired of them. It's nothing personal, i just never could get a feel for them, i think the rim is a little shallower. ANYWAY, I am now carrying 3 driver molds, teebirds, pred/tsunami, and an SB Orc. I have defected, I am in love with the tsunami. So to all you tsunami throwers, I FINALLY GET IT!!!! Be waiting for volume 2.

When I was a total newb, I looked at only Innova plastic to throw as it was the most readily availible/most popular/newest and greatest/etc...

I actually looked at other brands with a slanted eye, especially all those not named Discraft or Gateway. Hell, at least those had a couple of models that seemed interesting. Little did I know...

Once I started trying discs from other companies besides Innova I was amazed. One of them was the Predator. Another was the Wizard. I've thrown the Tsunami a handful of times, but I'm not sure there's a place in my bag for it. It is a great disc though. I'd actually estimate that it's the main driver for 10% of our tournament players here in Cincinnati, and that's pretty **** good for a DGA disc.

Champion (http://innovadiscs.com/discs/championStarfire.html) or Star Starfire (http://innovadiscs.com/discs/starstarfire.html) (x). nuff said! :p

I feel the same way about the Surge. I put it in the bag as an expendable disc to throw on a lake hole. It surpassed, and continues to surpass all my expectations, and has become the go to driver. I live in the heart of Innova East country, and have always thrown Innova. I like the Surge.

well i throw teebirds like a mad man. But i don't throw roc's or aviars. I don't know what i would do without my teebirds. I throw buzzes and wizards. No wraiths no teerexs just teebirds.

well i throw teebirds like a mad man. But i don't throw roc's or aviars. I don't know what i would do without my teebirds. I throw buzzes and wizards. No wraiths no teerexs just teebirds.



So, in other words ... YOU LIKE TEEBIRDS? :p ;) :D :eek: /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :confused:

well i throw teebirds like a mad man. But i don't throw roc's or aviars. I don't know what i would do without my teebirds. I throw buzzes and wizards. No wraiths no teerexs just teebirds.



So, in other words ... YOU LIKE TEEBIRDS? :p ;) :D :eek: /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :confused:


I doubt I'll ever get rid of my teebirds. But the tsunami/pred combo has replaced my firebirds, orcs (except SB for grip), and starfires.


Champion (http://innovadiscs.com/discs/championStarfire.html) or Star Starfire (http://innovadiscs.com/discs/starstarfire.html) (x). nuff said! :p


I have a champ and thrown a star. Not as dependable in the wind as Tsunami/preds. I throw rhyno's because nothing flies like a rhyno. And I'm starting to feel the same way about tsunami/preds.

I feel the same way about the Surge. I put it in the bag as an expendable disc to throw on a lake hole. It surpassed, and continues to surpass all my expectations, and has become the go to driver. I live in the heart of Innova East country, and have always thrown Innova. I like the Surge.



I agree! Well, mostly. I can't say that i originally put the Surge in the bag as an expendable disc for water shots, but i did toss it in there to test it out for a few weeks. In the beginning, I would throw it as a 2nd drive off of the tee, just to see how it compared to my Flash, Crush, Avenger. Now, i find myself grabbing it first. It's great!!! For comparison sakes, i find it to be a little more overstable than Innova's Wraith. Not as touchy, or tempermental if you will.

As for the Pred/Tsunami, i've been saying it since the day they were released....LONG LIVE THE PRED. :D

Your comparison to the wraith is exactly how I feel. I'd much rather trust in what I am throwing. :D

My teebirds will never be replaced......just lost over time.

I threw the surge in the same way as a tester I was using the wraith and sb orc as go to drivers at the time, Liked the d on the surge and it is not as squirley as the wraith or orc... Then I got an E Illusion and I took all the other long drivers out this thing flat out bombs further than anything I had thrown before and more dependable too, Gateway is doing something right that this frisbee was made a long time before the wriath or the surge.

I agree that a Tsunami is a great. My only issue is that sparkle plastic is the only kind that doesn't rip my hand up. I get this with a pred too....since I'm all flick all day. Sparkle pred? Laugh and laughing fall apart?

My only issue is that sparkle plastic is the only kind that doesn't rip my hand up



The X-Pred shouldn't hurt you.

Gateways been way ahead of everyone in overstable drivers.

Yea that is really true, several of the Gateway line is overstable, but the Illusion and even the Nike Spirits (the ones I have anyway) are not overstable, actually they are right on the line between stable and slightly understable, right where I like a disc to be to absolutley bomb it. :D

I have a Nike Spirit and it is comparable to a Champion Firebird in stability. Pretty beefy.

172 pink nike spirit - best wind driver I've tried by a mile (vs: monster, firebird, pred, flick, and teerex). That said, it's remarkable what happens when one puts their unfounded prejudices aside and just throws a disc...there are some really great hidden treasures out there including the tsunami that many will never get to use because they're the "wrong brand".

172 pink nike spirit - best wind driver I've tried by a mile (vs: monster, firebird, pred, flick, and teerex). That said, it's remarkable what happens when one puts their unfounded prejudices aside and just throws a disc...there are some really great hidden treasures out there including the tsunami that many will never get to use because they're the "wrong brand".


.....Or nowhere readily available to buy them!

with the internet everything is available for purchase any time. It is nice to feel the disc in your hand, but it is also nice to be able to choose the exact color and weight you want. If it means waiting a day or two that is ok with me.

Congratulations on your discovery R.H.D.!

The tsunami is a great choice for many more scenarios than people believe. Try to throw a sky roller with it!

I have a champ and thrown a star. Not as dependable in the wind as Tsunami/preds.


How does the tsunami fly compared to a Z Avenger?

Gateways been way ahead of everyone in overstable drivers.



Unfortunately this seems to me to be all that they make. I have yet to see a flippy maximum distance driver from them.

try an E illusion, I wouldnt call it flippy unless you think the wraith and surge are flippy, I would say the wraith is least over stable then the illusion then the surge.

and the element flies like a tuned roc or buzz but glides a lot farther than either of the others.

How does the tsunami fly compared to a Z Avenger?


The first avenger I got was not nearly as overstable as the tsunami. Since then I have acquired 7 or 8 avengers and they have all been very overstable compared to the first one. I would put them about the same stability as the tsunami, but thrown hard into a headwind they don't perform quite as well as a tsunami.

try an E illusion, I wouldnt call it flippy unless you think the wraith and surge are flippy, I would say the wraith is least over stable then the illusion then the surge.

and the element flies like a tuned roc or buzz but glides a lot farther than either of the others.



Is the E illusion in a special edition type of plastic ?

try an E illusion, I wouldnt call it flippy unless you think the wraith and surge are flippy, I would say the wraith is least over stable then the illusion then the surge.

and the element flies like a tuned roc or buzz but glides a lot farther than either of the others.



Is the E illusion in a special edition type of plastic ?



No it is just the high end stuff like Star, champion, Z, etc. Dave is making a big run of them very soon from what I hear and they will go fast. :D

This plastic seems very durable. I have been throwing one for two years without much change in the flight pattern. Are any disc being made in this specific plastic?

i played Ultimate for years and loved ultrastars and then one day i heard of disc golf and bought a Skystreak. great disc. disc golf was boring though cause the 9 hole course i played (Southern Illinois University -- 1987) was a little boring compared to ultimate.

2002 -- refound disc golf. gravitated to Discraft. Then learned of Innova discs and found out Innova was the reason we have discs that aren't lids (Ultrastar, Skystreak) and that almost all non-Innova golf discs are clones. since then Innova has supplied everything i need or could want.
ymmv -- viva la difference!

Rob, I attempted to play ultimate at SIU also in 87. Did you and your brother both play ultimate. You had a gun on the pull. Sorry everyone for not pm.

Yes, my younger brother Chris also played Ultimate for a while at SIU. Looks like you found the PDGA before i did :D i live in the Cincinnati area now (Kentucky side) where there are boucoup courses.

do you ever make it back to the old 9-hole course at the SIU-C Rec Center?

i played Ultimate for years and loved ultrastars and then one day i heard of disc golf and bought a Skystreak. great disc. disc golf was boring though cause the 9 hole course i played (Southern Illinois University -- 1987) was a little boring compared to ultimate.

2002 -- refound disc golf. gravitated to Discraft. Then learned of Innova discs and found out Innova was the reason we have discs that aren't lids (Ultrastar, Skystreak) and that almost all non-Innova golf discs are clones. since then Innova has supplied everything i need or could want.
ymmv -- viva la difference!



ROB,,,
Cmon big guy,
Gateway has worked pretty hard to produce unique molds, develop new polymers and step outside the box on aerodynamic technology.
Your WAY off base if you think our discs are clones!

lets see,,,,
we were the 1st to make a really wide rim disc and our wings on the Illusion, spirit, Speed demon-Dt, Blurr ( soon to be released Rage and Blast-Dt) are still the longest, not counting one side of the epic!
Then there's over molded discs ( Odyssey), dimple technology ( DT),
Increased thickness in the outer part of the flight plates of the sabre, Blaze, demon and Wizard to make them more Gyroscopic and this also helps keep the shape upon impacts.
1st to have Convexed wings (on the Wizard and Illusion).
Surface technologies on the Inferno series,,,
and BTW we have been producing star type plastic called Evolution Pro-Line, for 4 year now ( thats 3 before i Innova)!
Our "S" plastic is still out in front for matted type plastic.

Clones or cloning, you've got to be joking, right???? :confused: :confused: :D:D

David,

i was thinking more of the Discraft line, but do you at least concede that the Wizard used the Aviar as its model?

obviously i am not as knowledgeable as you are about Gateway innovations -- it sounds like you pioneered the wide-rimmed disc and the latest type of grippy candy though so bravo!

if you really want to win me over make an Odyssey type MTA disc :D

then again winning me over shouldn't be your concern. go after the young guys ;)

Rob, Thanks for the props,
While I will admit we used the shape of the aviar, the DGA drivers that were orange with a black stamp were pretty much the same shape and were out 2 year earlier.
Here are the differences between the Wizard and Aviar and why it is SOOOOOO different from and aerodynamic and engineering standpoint.


I will try to address some of the scientific or aerodynamic differences between the Wizard and Aviar.

First of all I believe the Wizard is a bit longer in flight than either the Aviar and just about all putters.
Most guys who can throw big with a putter will agree!

It is more based on gyroscopic effect, balance of air deflection and the materials on the surface of the discs.

The more matted the finish on the discs the less contact the air makes with the actual surface. We do this with the rubber in our materials. It causes less surface friction and a reduction of drag!
The Wizards balance of air under and over the leading edge is much closer to Equal than the Aviar and that certainly adds to glide on declaration. The Wizard has better stability for a wider range of Speeds.
A P& A will flip pretty quick when thrown hard and a KC will fade left more than a Wizard at low speeds.
Keeping in layman�s terms the wizards stability covers a much larger velocity range than either Aviar p&a or a big bead.

As for the technical reasons why, most are based on the angles of the deflection {wing vs. top or dome VS bead)!.

Here are a few others:
1) The Wizard is smaller in mass around 125 cubic CM and the Aviar is around 140 maybe 145.
This equates to less over all space taken up by the object.
If both discs were to weigh 175, the wizards� density would have to be 1.4 while the Aviar is only 1.2. Even with both discs weighing 175g the plastics in ours is heavier and even distributed much differently.

2) Besides the shape of the nose which is quite different the rim is still close in mass or size, to the Aviar.
The wizard has a .068 thick flight plate though and the Aviar is over .075. At 1-1/2" in from the outer edge of the Wizard, the flight plate begins to thicken and by the time it gets to the shoulder, (where the inside rim meets the flight plate) our thickness is up to .125 heading into the rim! Even soft wizards feel beefy at first, but you can break them in by flexing them. Because we use such high end rubbers the rebound resiliency( memory) is greater as is the abrasion resistance, so they come right back to shape only a bit more flexible.
The surface, even on firm wizards is still very grippy and tacky for grabbing chains.

The added thickness in the outer part of the rim helps tremendously in 2 different ways over the Aviar.
1st,, it adds structure stability to the over all shape of the disc by reinforcing it, because of the added thickness. Even a very used wizard will remain close to perfect roundness)
The 2nd function is adding to the gyroscopic ness of the disc, Flat out a more gyroscopic disc will spin longer. The longer the spin, the longer a disc can hold a flight pattern. Bottom line, The Wizard is straighter and flies with a much tighter "S" pattern and will hold just about any line you put it on for a longer period of time whether its 30 feet or 300 feet, 20 mph or 70 MPH!!!!.

3rd)The thickness of outer part of the flight plate thins down quickly at the 1-1/2" mark to the thinner .063 ( compared to the .075 of the Aviar) This allows for a much better feel between your thumb and fingers when pinching the flight plate for putting, because they are closer together. You can get better touch with a thinner flight plate.

Besides all the technical mumble jumble, the real reason we feel our putters are more successful is the range of grips and feels. Its like buying a good micro brew compared to the same old bud light! (No offense Dave D, but we spend hours dry blending formulas for 200-1200 disc batches and I'm sure your way past that stage for the putters)
It takes up a lot of time and causes funky weights and blended colors!
We may run a 60 disc batch and make it softer or firmer and then blend and run a 300 lb batch.

Every player seems to like a different aspect of a putter.
You wind up using it on every single and sometimes more than once, so you better really like it!!!!
A lot of people are playing with and liking the wizard for all shots under 300 feet!
We sell a lot of them and will soon be selling a lot more!

We are working on some packaging for the wizard and they should wind up in some of the big box retailers and more existing disc golf outlets.
We have some verbal from interest form Target, Sports Authority and several other national corporations
The wizards wont be so hard to get one day real soon!!!!!!!!!!!

Gateways been way ahead of everyone in overstable drivers.



Which is why I dont care to throw Gateway. Granted, I have a wizard but it'll be replaced with my Star Aviar Driver soon. Gateway just doesnt seem to have any variety IMO, and I have the same feelings towards most of Discraft's drivers (except the Surge).

thanks for the technical reply. i guess i am curious now to try the Wizard against my JK Aviars in distance, etc. i will say this -- Bob Herbert got a soft Wizard from you guys that felt really cool (grippy and quite soft). most "soft" Wizards i have encountered are way too hard for my taste...

i also agree with the last post that generally Gateway drivers are too overstable for my preference as well. i have heard i might like the Inferno so i guess i will give it a huck or two to see what i think.

robj

thanks for the technical reply. i guess i am curious now to try the Wizard against my JK Aviars in distance, etc. i will say this -- Bob Herbert got a soft Wizard from you guys that felt really cool (grippy and quite soft). most "soft" Wizards i have encountered are way too hard for my taste...

i also agree with the last post that generally Gateway drivers are too overstable for my preference as well. i have heard i might like the Inferno so i guess i will give it a huck or two to see what i think.

robj



Bought it from Dave and hate it. Sorry Dave, but I gotta be honest. Supposed to stable, but it turns on me even with a hyzer. Didnt hold up at all in the wind, and IMO its just a terrible disc. But all discs do different things for everyone so maybe you will like it. But for me of all the different Gateway discs I've thrown I have yet to be satisfied by any of them. The SS Wizard is a good putter, but as stated earlier once my Star Avair Driver comes in it is out of my bag.

thanks for the technical reply. i guess i am curious now to try the Wizard against my JK Aviars in distance, etc. i will say this -- Bob Herbert got a soft Wizard from you guys that felt really cool (grippy and quite soft). most "soft" Wizards i have encountered are way too hard for my taste...

i also agree with the last post that generally Gateway drivers are too overstable for my preference as well. i have heard i might like the Inferno so i guess i will give it a huck or two to see what i think.

robj



Bought it from Dave and hate it. Sorry Dave, but I gotta be honest. Supposed to stable, but it turns on me even with a hyzer. Didnt hold up at all in the wind, and IMO its just a terrible disc. But all discs do different things for everyone so maybe you will like it. But for me of all the different Gateway discs I've thrown I have yet to be satisfied by any of them. The SS Wizard is a good putter, but as stated earlier once my Star Avair Driver comes in it is out of my bag.



Thats such a hasty decision saying once a disc is in, another is out of your bag. Putting a disc in without throwing it, risky. If you were going to replace it with a 12x aviar forgetaboutit, that thing flips and laaaaaaaaaater to quote a frizzak.

Case in point on why a wizard flies further than a kc aviar, hole 8 maple hill elements (watch me on the 05 dvd :cool:) Wizard is perfect distance, tried throwing a kc aviar in practice and in the drink.

There is nothing like a Flick.

I have to confess that I swear by Innova plastic and for a long time felt that the Aviar was the most important disc in my bag. I bought a couple wizards and tried them out but set them aside as I didn't really "get" the flight of the wizard at first. Long story short, I gradually started trusting my wizards for more and more shots and now I use my wizards for more than 50% of all my shots during a round. best characteristic - more predictable in breezy conditions

(edit: that being said... the Infernos I bought were out of the box rollers and I was very disappointed. I know more stable Infernos came after the first runs but I haven't felt like coming back to this driver after I have been so happy with the Pro Wraith for my distance needs)

thanks for the technical reply. i guess i am curious now to try the Wizard against my JK Aviars in distance, etc. i will say this -- Bob Herbert got a soft Wizard from you guys that felt really cool (grippy and quite soft). most "soft" Wizards i have encountered are way too hard for my taste...

i also agree with the last post that generally Gateway drivers are too overstable for my preference as well. i have heard i might like the Inferno so i guess i will give it a huck or two to see what i think.

robj



Bought it from Dave and hate it. Sorry Dave, but I gotta be honest. Supposed to stable, but it turns on me even with a hyzer. Didnt hold up at all in the wind, and IMO its just a terrible disc. But all discs do different things for everyone so maybe you will like it. But for me of all the different Gateway discs I've thrown I have yet to be satisfied by any of them. The SS Wizard is a good putter, but as stated earlier once my Star Avair Driver comes in it is out of my bag.



Thats such a hasty decision saying once a disc is in, another is out of your bag. Putting a disc in without throwing it, risky. If you were going to replace it with a 12x aviar forgetaboutit, that thing flips and laaaaaaaaaater to quote a frizzak.

Case in point on why a wizard flies further than a kc aviar, hole 8 maple hill elements (watch me on the 05 dvd :cool:) Wizard is perfect distance, tried throwing a kc aviar in practice and in the drink.



I have thrown it. One of my friends ordered one and he let me mess around with it, and I find it to be a better disc. The BB aviar combined with Star plastic really held up in the wind for me.

Star BB is probably a fine disc. I am betting it has more fade than a wizard, and is even shorter than a DX BB (not in production) or a avair X. The star plastic only takes glide away, If anyone is throwing the Star further its because it can take more torque and they cant finnese the X well enough.

I saw this thread when it resurfaced after along time without a post. And saw what people were saying about the tsunami and realized that I had one someone gave me in my first tournament. But I hadn't been playing but for about a month and of course it was too overstable for me, but decided to take it out today and wow this thing really is nice, so a couple of questions first I saw the comparison of it to a predator so does a predator fly exactly the same? Second after seeing how much I like a Tsunami does anyone have any info or opinions on the new Rogue?

I saw this thread when it resurfaced after along time without a post. And saw what people were saying about the tsunami and realized that I had one someone gave me in my first tournament. But I hadn't been playing but for about a month and of course it was too overstable for me, but decided to take it out today and wow this thing really is nice, so a couple of questions first I saw the comparison of it to a predator so does a predator fly exactly the same? Second after seeing how much I like a Tsunami does anyone have any info or opinions on the new Rogue?



The Tsunami and Pred at essencially (sp?) the samd disc but the Tsunamis wing is a little straighter then the Pred giving it a little more glide and making it just a touch less stable!!! That being said the Avenger and now the SS Avengers are the next to steps down in stablility with essencially the same mold!!! So if you like the Pred and Tsunami I suggest trying a Avenger and now the new SS Avenger and im sure you will be quite happy...............Now onto the Rogue.........The Rogue is a SS Surge for all intensive purposes!!! Its a straight edge version of the Surge which means its less stable and has more glide........I myself and LOVING the Rogue for long Anhyzer drives......Hyzer flip Distance Drives and Long Distance rollers........All of this I can do with a BRAND new out of the box Rogue and I love it!!! So I suggest you try one out........I hear it maybe be close to the flight of a Sidewinder but have never thrown a Sidewinder so I cant compare the 2!!!

Hope that helped :D

what is the SS avenger?

what is the SS avenger?



A less stable Avenger with a SS wing SS Standing for Super Straight!!!

An Avenger with a Leopard bottom? :eek: