I've seen a lot of guys adjust the chains on the basket before putting. It's usually when the chains in the slider slots are pushed forward into the entrapment device. Since the target is between your lie and the goal, is this a legal move?

Since you don't have to throw until the playing field is clear and free of distractions, I would think a player has a right to remove a distraction of chains not hanging properly. The previous player should remove their equipment and replace the course equipment to the way it was before they holed out. If the previous player didn't replace the chains, for whatever reason, the next player should be able to shoot at a target that is in such a state that everyone gets an equal chance at it. It's not that difficult to fix the chains after holing out, same as ball golfers must replace their divots and repair their ball marks on the green.

I've seen a lot of guys adjust the chains on the basket before putting. It's usually when the chains in the slider slots are pushed forward into the entrapment device. Since the target is between your lie and the goal, is this a legal move?


That's a great question that seems to have a simple common-sense answer.....but doesn't seem to be covered in the rules. :)

It's like a bathroom door or a gate in a fence. Can you go and close the door/gate before you throw?

Except for the first group to play a basket, any groups following could cite 803.05B for Obstacles between the Lie and Hole. Since previous groups are required to hole out, even if the basket wasn't observed, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that the position of the chains were in a different position than when the rounds started if they are currently twisted. This would allow the group to adjust them.

The question would be whether a basket qualifies as an obstacle. From the Glossary - Obstacle: Any feature of the course that may impede any aspect of play. Certainly baskets that are not the target on your hole would qualify just like a bush. Since your basket will hopefully successfully impede the progress of your disc, I believe it would also qualify as an obstacle.

Most courses I have played tournament rounds on that have multiple baskets, the TD has put trash bags over them to signal to player as to not hole out in that position. I would imagine that chain orientation with these out of play baskets would not be a factor.

I have heard people argue about this, but since it would be between the player and the hole in the line of play, "spacer" poles that are stuck in non-used sleeves could not be removed during play. I assume this is correct, right?

why shouldnt be able to adjust the chains - if everyone else gets to putt on a basket a certain way, why should you have to putt on a different version of the basket?

B/c we don't have officals walking around in smaller events like they do in NT's and stuff like that, things like this have to be handled with consitency. Thats why I love the "benefit of the doubt goes to thrower" rule - its a way to make close calls from group to group have a consistent ruling

why shouldn't be able to adjust the chains - if everyone else gets to putt on a basket a certain way, why should you have to putt on a different version of the basket?



While I agree that there should be something in the rules that allows a target to be reset in its "standard" position prior to putting, there are already subtle and not so subtle changes to the course that occur during a round that make the hole potentially not play the same for each group. Players move sticks and things on the ground into slightly different positions (just by walking) that can affect skips, slides and rollers. Since you can move branches behind your lie, that branch can end up in different positions during the round. One could argue that the chains in the basket are no different.

Can the target be between the target and the lie ?

Well clearly Chuck thinks "The Target" really means where the target touches the ground. :)

So Chains on the front side would be between the lie and the hole...

So Chains on the front side would be between the lie and the hole...




The obvious reference would be the farthest point the disc could still be retained by the target. So, it would be a wedgie in the back of the basket. :)

Except for the first group to play a basket, any groups following could cite 803.05B for Obstacles between the Lie and Hole. Since previous groups are required to hole out, even if the basket wasn't observed, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that the position of the chains were in a different position than when the rounds started if they are currently twisted. This would allow the group to adjust them.

The question would be whether a basket qualifies as an obstacle. From the Glossary - Obstacle: Any feature of the course that may impede any aspect of play. Certainly baskets that are not the target on your hole would qualify just like a bush. Since your basket will hopefully successfully impede the progress of your disc, I believe it would also qualify as an obstacle.



even the first group could if they were clever enough(look that guy walking across the course just moved the chains :D)
look the wind twisted those babies together :D
or my personal favorite...i'm going to straighten out the chains before i putt on this first hole,you can call me on it if you would like and the rest of the round it would be that they got moved during the course of the round and i could legally move them "back" where they belong...
case closed!

i almost ALWAYS move them before putting because it IS a distraction to me

keith

Actually, I've found twisting them a certain way catches Classic Rocs better but that's my secret...

Actually, I've found twisting them a certain way catches Classic Rocs better but that's my secret...



putt with first run jk's and you wouldn't have to twist them to catch your frisbee sized putter :D

Twisting chains? That sounds crazy, I'm gonna go try it.. What a dumb thing to argue, lets split hairs on whether you can put chains the way they are supposed to be.. The game isn't so black and white, there is intent, twisting, sounds illegal.. Fixing them the way they were when new (straight) is a no brainer! Next subject :D

The basket being our target and the place where we hole out, I can't imagine that it was intended as an obstacle within the definition of such in the rules, unless it is the basket of a hole other than the one you are playing.

The outer chains of a Chainstar sometimes get wrapped around the inner chains during play. I can't see any problem with unwrapping them before putting.

While I agree that there should be something in the rules that allows a target to be reset in its "standard" position prior to putting, there are already subtle and not so subtle changes to the course that occur during a round that make the hole potentially not play the same for each group. Players move sticks and things on the ground into slightly different positions (just by walking) that can affect skips, slides and rollers. Since you can move branches behind your lie, that branch can end up in different positions during the round. One could argue that the chains in the basket are no different.



That's why the rules should not allow someone to intentionally move anything on the course (except those things moved since the beginning of the round), and one of several reasons players should ALWAYS be allowed to move up to 5 meters back without penalty, regardless of the obstacles. Is the RC reading this?

So, to remedy this you can either

1) check the basket to your first hole just before play, or,
2) have the TD announce that the chains should be rearranged before play starts, and while he or she is at it, announce that the chains belong in a certain position and that if they are not in that position should be rearranged.

THe only reason I brought this up is because I think it needs to be in the rule book. Everyone should be able to utilize the target as it was intended to be used by the manufacturer.

I don't think the rules currently prevent it. The argument about the basket being an "obstacle" within the meaning of 803.05(B) is not strong. The basket IS the hole and I don't think it can by that definition be an obstacle between the lie and the hole. Only exception I see is if the basket in question is NOT the hole for the one you are playing.

it think it is safe to assume that the basket was in proper condition, ie the chains hanging correctly, before the round. therefore, moving the chains to their corect position would simply be moving them back to their original position, and is absolutely allowed.

The chain assembly is an obstacle and a completely optional one at that. Check the PDGA target standards. It happens to be a very popular obstacle, mainly because it makes it easier to make putts from farther away. I still want to play a tournament on a course with no chain assemblies...

I still want to play a tournament on a course with no chain assemblies...


http://flogosh.web.aplus.net/id8.html

The chain assembly is an obstacle and a completely optional one at that. Check the PDGA target standards. It happens to be a very popular obstacle, mainly because it makes it easier to make putts from farther away. I still want to play a tournament on a course with no chain assemblies...



If the basket (and chains within) are to be considered obstacles, why does the PDGA create a list of baskets as "Approved Targets " and not "Approved Obstacles "? I would suggest that this distinct difference in wording is worth for considering

nanook

His point is that the chain assembly doesn't have to be on those Approved targets for them to remain Approved. Only the basket part is actually specified in the target standards. You can remove the chain assemblies on any approved basket and legally play a sanctioned event on them based on our documents (not advisable but legal). Thus, the chain assembly itself is an obstacle.

Aha! Thank you for the clarification, I definitely missed that point...

nanook

Not saying it's a good thing, just an answer :)

By that, you can hole out without having the disc ever touch the target. I have had many putts on the single heavy chain discatchers just spread the chains and hang there.

Thread drift but I'd love to see the target standards move toward more uniformity of the chain assembly (or deflector) dimensions. Seems like this is more important than some of the things we currently measure for target standards.

They used to, but actually moved away from that to give more flexibility to target designers.

At minimum, the most important dimension that we don't set is the height between the top of the chain support and the basket rim. That's as close as we get to having something equivalent to a standard 'hole' like ball golf. Current chain targets range from 15-22 inches in this measurement. Specifying this height would at least keep deflectors in the same zone regardless how manufacturers create the chain or deflector assembly.

His point is that the chain assembly doesn't have to be on those Approved targets for them to remain Approved. Only the basket part is actually specified in the target standards. You can remove the chain assemblies on any approved basket and legally play a sanctioned event on them based on our documents (not advisable but legal). Thus, the chain assembly itself is an obstacle.



I feel as though the chain assembly is part of the target, whether required or not, and thus should not be considered an obstacle within the meaning of the definition provided in the rule book. It doesn't really impede play, it assists in holing out.

Besides, the chains are not between the lie and the basket anyway.

That get's me thinking. What rule, other than common sense, dignity, etc. prevents someone from erecting a backstop behind the target when putting.

Ok that's extreme, but if I threw past the hole, set my bag down on the tee side of the basket, proceed past the hole to my disc to putt and missed the putt, that bag might save me some distance. Should there be a rule like ball golf. No bags on the green (ie. within 10m).

Chuck,
I'm curious on what the RCs position is for the rules regarding moving things between your lie and the hole. Obviously moving a log that blocks your shot, or walking down the fairway with some timmers before each shot would want to be prevented but small dead loose debris... This has probably been hashed over a million times with the whole stick that goes from behind your lie to infront and whatnot but I'm curious on the reasoning behind those rules. (trots out the old analogy) In BG you can clean your line (once on the green) of loose debris (leaves, repair ball marks etc), there are some restrictins (pushing down the green on your line etc) but if there's a big leaf in your line you don't have to putt around it you can move it.

Why has the RC taken the opposite stance in regards to things between the lie and the hole. Seems to me that most of the things you would prevent would be coverered by other rules. Things alive and/or attatched, maybe some clarification on what is a large obstacle (no moving that picnic table...) despite it being dead and unattatched. Then there's also your 30 seconds which should prohibit any serious line clearing since at that point you've addressed your lie.

I haven't been around long enough to know what might have triggered the rule regarding movement of objects in front of the lie or whether it was just agreed upon as the right thing to do when the rules were written. Considering there's a time limit before you throw and the fact that players in preceding groups can move items behind their lie that might change the course anyway, I agree that there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to prevent clearing unattached items in front of your lie within your 30 seconds. What might happen though is players try to advance down the fairway to clear branches for rollers while other players are working on their shots so courtesy might become an issue.

The primary difference of course is that discs fly through the air and balls roll on the ground, so the leaf on the BG green is more of an issue than the 2-foot stick on the DG green. But even the smallest debris on the ground can be an obstacle that comes into play. Consider a roller shot. A pebble could change the route of the shot. The best approach in my opinion is to go through the course and clear out anything that you do not intend to be an obstacle on the course. I think the rule as it stands is good.

The point we are talking about here is whether or not the target is an obstacle within the meaning of the rules.

That get's me thinking. What rule, other than common sense, dignity, etc. prevents someone from erecting a backstop behind the target when putting.


Interference:
"Players shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with the flight or path of a disc could easily occur. "

What I don;t like about this rule is sometimes I'm on a knee putting and I want to lunge, but right where I'm lunging there are a couple of big sharp pinecones waiting to do some damage.. It seems like safety of the player would be first and foremost. Sure there is the whole, you gotta just do it or pick another shot routine but that doesn't make alot of sense.. (but I was never one of those punch a wall punch myself in the face type of people.. As a golfer I love seeing players hit the type of shots where they end up on the ground throwing them, they are athletic and they often times would end up on Sportscenter if the were taped.. Why limit the amount of times that somebody can go for it if that player is merely changing what the person will step on after they throw (a rock so they don't roll their ankle).. I completely agree with not moving anything that is in the flight path of the disc.. That top me is the essence of what this rule should be

It also goes with "If you didn't want to deal with that stuff, you shouldn't have throw it there". I never really liked that one myself.

The fact is you aren't guaranteed the shot or stance you want. You deal with the problems associated with where you throw the disc. If those problems exist in the fairway, then the fairway should be groomed prior to a tournament.

His point is that the chain assembly doesn't have to be on those Approved targets for them to remain Approved. Only the basket part is actually specified in the target standards. You can remove the chain assemblies on any approved basket and legally play a sanctioned event on them based on our documents (not advisable but legal). Thus, the chain assembly itself is an obstacle.



I feel as though the chain assembly is part of the target, whether required or not, and thus should not be considered an obstacle within the meaning of the definition provided in the rule book. It doesn't really impede play, it assists in holing out.



Hmmmmmm.............if I see the chains are crooked or tangled , I'll go up and reset them before putting.

His point is that the chain assembly doesn't have to be on those Approved targets for them to remain Approved. Only the basket part is actually specified in the target standards. You can remove the chain assemblies on any approved basket and legally play a sanctioned event on them based on our documents (not advisable but legal). Thus, the chain assembly itself is an obstacle.



I feel as though the chain assembly is part of the target, whether required or not, and thus should not be considered an obstacle within the meaning of the definition provided in the rule book. It doesn't really impede play, it assists in holing out.



Hmmmmmm.............if I see the chains are crooked or tangled , I'll go up and reset them before putting.



Exactly. The Chainstar, for example, is a great target but the inner and outer chains sometimes get wrapped around each other (at least the brand new ones we installed on March 15th do). It's a visual thing for me sometimes when I am putting. I may or may not walk up and correct them before putting, but I think for tournament play it would be allowed within the rules, since it's not an obstacle to play.

Sometimes you can't tell the chains are all jacked until your up there for a putt.

If I can clearly see the chains messed up before I putt , I'll go straighten them out.