I was wondering... My home course has a tree that is about 15 feet from a basket. This tree has a big hollow base with an opening facing the basket. The hollow area is big enough for a kid to sit inside but not big enough for an adult to throw a disc from, unless they just put their foot inside, but then they would have to make a falling putt in order to not make contact with the part of the tree that is in front of the lie. My question is this: If a disc lands in the center of this hollow area, and is more than 30 centimeters from the back of the hollow area, should the player still be allowed to declare the tree a large "solid" obstacle and place his foot directly behind the tree without penalty?

You can take relief behind the tree with no penalty using the solid obstacle rule. The key part of the question is whether a player can take a legal stance. If 'no' then you get relief.

I would have thought you would have to declare it unplayable, but if you are sure, then I will leave it at that. OK, now add a couple of twists to this scenario. What if it's (A) under a picnic table, or (B) in the middle of a very large bush?

You can take relief behind the tree with no penalty using the solid obstacle rule. The key part of the question is whether a player can take a legal stance. If 'no' then you get relief.



The question is if he could get his disc out of the tree?

This very thing happened to me during the Chandler Tornado last year. Threw my drive, hit the tree where the hollow hole was and my disc went inside the tree.

I TOOK A LOST DISC PENALTY

Even though we all knew the disc was inside the tree, I concluded that since I am not leaving the hole with my disc then it is a LOST disc.

Even though we all knew the disc was inside the tree, I concluded that since I am not leaving the hole with my disc then it is a LOST disc.



Really? I would not think so, but maybe I am the one who is wrong. Since you were able to clearly identify your disc, was able to play from the lie, I would think you could play without penalty.

Would someone be penalized for leaving their disc on a hole, and forgetting where it was. Then going back and not finding it? Would they get a lost disc penalty?

This would come into play on heavily wooded courses with cedars if TD did not say they were playing the two meter rule. Due to the rule of verticality, you mark your lie below the disc. But if you cannot get the disc out of the tree within resonable time, or that it is too narrow to climb do you take a penalty for allowing the flow of play to not get terribly backed up?

I think you voluntarily took the short end of the stick on that one.

Everyone saw it go in the tree. But in my eyes unless I can retrieve my disc its LOST. If I did short-end myself I wouldn't agree with it. Cuz I firmly agree that you should have to leave the hole with every disc you started with on that hole. Thats the way it is in ball golf and heaven forbid if we follow to the great game of golf.

By the way I tied for 3rd in that event, 1 stroke could have put some more greenbacks in my pocket, but I really feel like I did the RIGHT thing, even if the rule book would cut me some slack.

Did your entire card look for the lost disc for 3 minutes without locating it ? A disc is lost when it's location is unknown, not when it's merely irretrievable. You really shouldn't have taken the penalty in accordance with the rules. I guess it's OK to take one in the spirit of fair play if your conscious demands that you should, but I'm not really sure that it wasn't an incorrect scorecard and should have been 2 stroke penalty from the correct score. :D:cool:

We didn't have to look for it, we were elevated so we all saw it go in the hole and in the tree.

I played it the way it "SHOULD" be interpreted IMO but all of our rules should be more like ball golf.

I do agree with you, but I am trying to be technical about it, and you could have possibly argued your way out any penalty. It takes a strong competitor to be able to penalize themselve. I imagine a lot of premaddona's would have whined, cried and complained if they were penalized for that.

We might need some clarification of rules for examples of being unable to retrieve a disc even when found inbounds. I don't have my rule book with me (bad, bad official :o) and don't feel like searching online, so maybe I am missing something.

What rules ?

There are no rules relating to the number of discs you carry on a course. Nothing says you have to start and finish with the same discs or even the same number of discs. There is nothing saying you have to be to retrieve every disc you throw. It might just be behaving very poorly that day and I don't want it in my bag infecting the others, so I'll just "forget" to pick it up after a drive. :cool:

Shouldn't that have been a "hole in one" scored as a 2 with the lost disc penalty? :D

What's interesting is that last year, you would play your lie behind the tree whether it was lost or you took solid object relief. This year, you would have to retee if you called it lost.

You said you were all "elevated"? And you all saw it disappear into a hole... perhaps from which a frenetic rabbit emerged who timed your 3 minutes on his pocket watch... hmmmm.

Doesn't anyone want to take a stab at responding to my second question (what is the ruling for a disc (A) under a picnic table, and (B) in the middle of a large bush). I guess what I am asking is: what constitutes (1) large, and (2) solid ? I think the rules would be simplified if the player ALWAYS had the option of moving up to 5 meters back WITHOUT penalty. This would also eliminate the discrepancy between loose leaves, debris, detached branches, etc. and the smallest of twigs or one leaf on the ground in determining between casual obstacles and unplayable lies. How'bout themapples?

Are you sure your shot landed below 2 meters? You had options.

A: No relief is allowed for park equipment, unless it was put there "during" the round.
B: Get to your lie as best as you can with the least movement of limbs, preferably from behind your lie so as not to create a shot you didn't have previously. If you have to put your non-throwing hand behind your lie in order to throw, you have to do it. Hopefully it's poison oak that has been designated as "casual" and you can take your 5 meters relief. Hope that helps.

I was struck by a thunderbolt once. Still haven't recovered.

A: No relief is allowed for park equipment, unless it was put there "during" the round.
B: Get to your lie as best as you can with the least movement of limbs, preferably from behind your lie so as not to create a shot you didn't have previously. If you have to put your non-throwing hand behind your lie in order to throw, you have to do it. Hopefully it's poison oak that has been designated as "casual" and you can take your 5 meters relief. Hope that helps.

I was struck by a thunderbolt once. Still haven't recovered.

:eek:

WTF is a Thuderbolt.

And, for that matter, WTF is a premaddona?

In answer to the Puli_Mon's situation, reference rule 803.09:


In order to consider the disc as out-of-bounds, there must be reasonable evidence that the disc came to rest within the out-of-bounds area. In the absence of such evidence, the disc will be considered lost and the player will proceed according to rule 803.11B.



and 803.01 F

F. Rule of Fairness. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision shall be made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness.



Entering a hollow tree, and being unretrievable is similar to entering an OB pond/lake and being unretrievable. If the majority of the group agrees it went in there, that is reasonable evidence that it did so. I belive that the hollow tree should be considered a "large solid" obstacle and the stance taken immediately behind it per 803.04 E

Note, this interpretation is to be taken as my opinion only, and not an official answer from the Rules Committee. If you wish to submit this question to the RC, click here (http://pdga.com/contact.php?a=sf&contact=Rules%20Committee).

Couldn't be too sure where in the tree the disc came to rest. The tree was at least 50 feet tall and lightning had struck the tree. There was a hole in the middle of the tree that was 100 feet from where we were throwing. We all saw it go directly into the hole and straight down into the trunk. There was no hole on the bottom of the tree to look up in to see what height my disc came to rest.

If you were to cut that tree down I guarantee my disc is still in there. ;)

WTF is a Thuderbolt.

And, for that matter, WTF is a premaddona?



I'll try and answer the premadonna question.

A premadonna is a Disc Golfer who is way too good to talk with anyone , including the general public. If you don't have a good purse or payout for them , your course s.u_c;ks ,including the people involved for making it happen for them.

Every course he/she plays , has to have all the amenities worthy of their presence. If just one thing is out of place or their game is not to their liking , everything seen is worthless trash. :(

That sounds a lot like the standard definition of prima donna.
Do we really need a new word ? :cool:

Never have I claimed to be a good speller. :confused:

WTF is a Thuderbolt.



Not sure what a thuderbolt is, but to find out what a thunderbolt is you have to watch "The Godfather".

That sounds a lot like the standard definition of prima donna.
Do we really need a new word ? :cool:

Premadonna. Is that like Debby Harry? Carol King? :D

Still can't believe the topic has gone this long without someone saying "Get some elves and bake cookies".

I TOOK A LOST DISC PENALTY

Even though we all knew the disc was inside the tree, I concluded that since I am not leaving the hole with my disc then it is a LOST disc.



when you throw your disc and see it go into an OB pond or lake, you would not take a Lost Disc penalty -- it would be OB. So not leaving with your disc is not the criterion by which to determine whether the Lost Disc rule applies. You had reasonable evidence the disc was inside the tree so i would think the correct ruling is to play immediately behind the tree on the LOP...

Aviar-I must disagree with you. Regardless if the whole group saw the disc go into a lake, it is lost if you cannot find it or see where it is in the water. Therefore, there is no proof as to where to correctly mark your last in-bounds. Only discs that can be found or seen are counted as OB and thrown from the last in-bounds spot. I believe that under the new rules that would constitute a re-throw from your previous lie. This is just my understanding of the rules.

No Bernie, it's very clear that if the group concurs that the disc went in the lake, the OB rule applies to the situation and the mark is whatever options are available, 1m IB, drop zone or rethrow. The key is the fact that the group saw the disc go in the lake. If it's blind, then it's possible the lost disc rule might be the only option available.

Read the OB rule. OB trumps Lost Disc if there is reasonable evidence the disc ended up at the bottom of the OB lake.
Seeing where the disc is on the bottom of a lake in no way indicates where it last crossed from IB to OB anyways...

PDGA Online Rulebook (http://www.pdga.com/rules/index.php)

Chuck could you re-post which rules take priority over others?
wasn't it something like (listed from top priority on top and least priority on bottom):


Mandatory
OB
2 meter (if in effect)
Lost Disc

Ok Chuck...I see said the blind man. I have played in three tournaments this year and this point has been a soure of argument. So, if the group observes where the disc went ob but the actual disc cannot be located then the group gets to decide where the lie is? It was my understanding that the disc was needed to 'prove' where it crossed the line. I guess the key wording is 'reasonable evidence' (803.09 A). How accurate can a group be from the teebox if the disc cannot be found? Is just seeing it go ob enough for reasonable evidence? I thought the new rules were to help eliminate group discussions which left the player usually throwing from a generous spot. So, the stroke and distance penalty is limited to blind shots or if the group isn't paying attention. I'm not trying to be difficult I just want to make sure that I understand.

How accurate can a group be from the teebox if the disc cannot be found?



I guess the key is if the group can actually see the disc go into OB well enough to call it OB versus lost, then they can judge well enough where an acceptable lie would be for the player to mark it 1m IB if that's an OB lie option allowed.

This is the inherent problem with the new lost disc rule like Chuck mentioned, blind shots with OB areas such as lakes.

The OB rule does precedent the lost disc rule if the group verifies that the disc went OB. This allows for situations such as lakes where the exact location of the disc is unknown or not retrievable. This will also allow for when someone throws a disc over an OB road, and the disc slides down a culvert/sewer drain. The group saw the disc go OB and (by virture of the particular course design) verified that the disc never infact came back in bounds. By flight path and probability of the disc entering the drain, it is assumed the disc has went under ground. The player would take their lie 1m from where the disc last crossed the OB line and take a 1 throw penalty.

The new lost disc rule works well for in bounds areas, however when it comes to inretrieveable OB areas and blind OB areas the new lost disc rule causes some serious arguements. I am really surprised that 4 and a half months after the new lost disc and OB line rule have been changed, that there is still confusion. At Bowling Green a few weeks ago, there were some players who did not understand it at all. I think as we grow and develop better language in the way our rules are wrote, we will have to use educated comprehension skills to deduce which rules apply in which order for certain situations.

It would be nice if everyone took the officials test, it definately helps in the comprehension of the rules. (McCoy this was not a slam on you, don't take it that way).

<font color="blue"> 803.09 Out-of-Bounds

A. A disc shall be considered out-of-bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area. A disc thrown in water shall be deemed to be at rest once it is floating or is moving only by the action of the water or the wind on the water. See section 803.03 F. The out-of-bounds line itself is considered out-of-bounds. In order to consider the disc as out-of-bounds, there must be reasonable evidence that the disc came to rest within the out-of-bounds area. In the absence of such evidence, the disc will be considered lost and the player will proceed according to rule 803.11B.

B. A player whose disc is considered out-of-bounds shall receive one penalty throw. The player may elect to play the next shot from:
(1) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved from an approximate lie, as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official; or (2) A lie that is up to one meter away from and perpendicular to the point where the disc last crossed into out-of-bounds, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. This holds true even if the direction takes the lie closer to the hole; or
(3) Within the designated Drop Zone, if provided. These options may be limited by the tournament director as a special condition (see 804.01).

C. The Rule of Verticality. The out-of-bounds line represents a vertical plane. Where a player�s lie is marked from a particular point within one meter of the out-of-bounds line pursuant to the rules, the one-meter relief may be taken from the particular point upward or downward along the vertical plane.

D. If the in-bounds status of a disc is uncertain, either a majority of the group or an official shall make the determination. If the thrower moves the disc before a determination has been made, the disc shall be considered out-of-bounds, and he or she shall proceed in accordance with 803.09 B counting all throws made prior to the determination of the in-bounds status of the original lie. If a player other than the thrower moves the disc before a determination has been made, the disc shall be considered in-bounds, and play for the thrower and the mover of the disc shall proceed under the rules of interference, 803.07 B and C. </font>

Water is the best example to illustrate how OB and Lost Disc rules relate. If a disc enters a body of OB water, and it is witnessed, then by rule the disc is OB as soon as the water controls the movement of the disc. It can't be declared lost.

Now if no one sees it go into the water, they just "guess" or "think" it did, then it must be considered a lost disc and not as having gone OB. Reasonable evidence is "witnessing" the disc enter the water and knowing that the movement or inertia of the water took over the movement of the thrown disc.

Out on land it is different:
If a disc is seen to be flying into a dry OB area and vanish behind trees, bushes or grass there is no way to determine the status of the disc as IB or OB until you actually find the disc. In this case Lost Disc takes precedence over the OB rule.

Likewise, if the disc is seen entering the hollow of a tree, there is no assumption possible without first locating the disc. If you cannot locate the disc in the allotted time then by rule a lost disc must be declared and play continue.

The only time our rules permit �assumptions� or �reasonable evidence� is when a person can �witness� the discs status as changing according to detailed circumstance (i.e. the movement of water).

This is the same for nearly all rules. Consider missed mandatorys. In order for a missed mandatory to be called missed someone must actually see it miss the mandatory. You can�t try to �assume�, �estimate� or �guess� it after the fact by looking at where the disc came to rest. If no one saw it miss then the benefit of the doubt must go to the player.

Even with the water OB the disc must be seen to enter the water, which at that moment (unless it is seen to skip) is considered OB. The same is not possible for a disc disappearing over land or out of site, because no one can say definitively, via actual visual evidence, what actually happened to the disc or what it�s status is.

This is a good thing, because we can�t expect the average players to have the deductive powers of Matlock.

Reasonable evidence (as opposed to eye witness proof) been discussed already. As I recall, actually witnessing the disc going into the OB area is not required if there is enough circumstantial evidence to show the disc entered the area and never emerged back inbounds.

Previous discussion (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Rules%20&%20Standards&Number=485517&Searchpage=4&Main=485513&Search=true&#Post485517)

In the one case I've seen this used this year, an OB creek runs along the left side of a fairly wooded hole. As the fairway nears the basket, the underbrush on the left side of the hole clears considerably, and the ground between the fairway and the OB creek is clear of debris. The drive in question was seen to kick left from the fairway toward the OB creek after the point the underbrush cleared, but whether it got into the creek or not could not be seen from the tee box. A search for the disc in the area is was last seen showed that it was not on the safe side of the creek. It was declared OB.

Any chance someone could write the RC and see if this is correct? I think I've used up all my tokens.

Any chance someone could write the RC and see if this is correct? I think I've used up all my tokens.



You probably have. In fact, you've probably used up all your tokens everywhere in the sport of disc golf.

In order for a missed mandatory to be called missed someone must actually see it miss the mandatory.



Nope. You need to check your rule book on this one. A missed mando is determined by where the disc ends up, not its path to get there (803.12B). On the other hand, making a mando can occur by observation of the disc's route (803.12A).

In order for a missed mandatory to be called missed someone must actually see it miss the mandatory.



Nope. You need to check your rule book on this one. A missed mando is determined by where the disc ends up, not its path to get there (803.12B). On the other hand, making a mando can occur by observation of the disc's route (803.12A).



A throw is considered to have missed the mandatory if it passes the incorrect side of the mandatory line from the direction of the tee, and comes to rest lying completely beyond that line.

It appears to me that it is both. It is not just where the disc ends up at all but must also pass the incorrect side. Therefore someone will have to have seen it.

In order for a missed mandatory to be called missed someone must actually see it miss the mandatory.



Nope. You need to check your rule book on this one. A missed mando is determined by where the disc ends up, not its path to get there (803.12B). On the other hand, making a mando can occur by observation of the disc's route (803.12A).



You mean this rule:
<font color="blue"> 803.12 Mandatories

A. A mandatory restricts the path the disc may take to the target. A disc must pass the correct side of the mandatory before the hole is completed. Once the disc has completely passed the mandatory line on the correct side (even if it subsequently re-crosses the line), the mandatory is to be ignored for the remainder of play on that hole.
(1) The mandatory line is the line marked by the director or course designer to indicate when a disc has passed or missed the mandatory.
(2) If no line is marked, the mandatory line is defined as a straight line through the mandatory, perpendicular to the line from the tee to the mandatory.
(3) In the case of a double mandatory when no line is marked, the mandatory line is the straight line connecting the two mandatories, and extends beyond them in both directions.

B. A throw is considered to have missed the mandatory if it passes the incorrect side of the mandatory line from the direction of the tee, and comes to rest lying completely beyond that line.

C. A disc that has missed the mandatory results in a one-throw penalty and the next throw shall be made from the drop zone, as designated for that mandatory. In cases where the drop zone is not designated, the lie is marked within five meters of the mandatory object and one meter behind the mandatory line which extends from the correct side of the mandatory.

D. When marking the lie, if the line of play does not pass the correct side of the mandatory, then the mandatory itself shall be considered the hole for the application of all rules regarding stance, markers, obstacles, and relief. For the purposes of taking a legal stance, the mandatory object which has not yet been passed, and is nearest the tee, will be considered to be the hole.

E. A throw that misses a mandatory shall be penalized and the lie marked according to the mandatory rule (803.12). It will not be further penalized for any other reason, such as out-of-bounds or above two meters. </font>

How do you figure folks will know if the disc went around the mandatory if not with their eyes?

This does bring up an interesting situation because you do have to actually see a make or a miss on a mando no matter what with the new rule. If a disc is a few feet across the line on the wrong side of the mando object, and no one in the group saw how the shot got there (they were distracted by an ace shout), what's the scoop? Since both conditions of missing the mando were not met (seeing it and disc across line), the player did not miss the mando but didn't make it either. So (s)he has to make a shot to set up going thru the mando on the next throw (unless they can maybe curl a roller around the mando object).

Since the group has to watch the shot go thru the mando, if the disc is 20 feet past the line on the good side of the mando, and again, the group didn't see it, the player didn't make the mando. So the player has to pitch back across the line and cross it (probably) again. The further extension of this from a design standpoint is that blind mandos should almost be against the rules because the visual sighting is required for makes or misses.

if a mando is truly blind, then it can't be judged without a spotter. Either a spotter MUST be provided for all play (well, tiered play at least) or the mando is completely unplayable. If it's blind, it can't be seen, so at least the spirit of the rule dictates that every shot beyond the mando must be unwound. Not good.
Blind mando--maybe not against any rule at this point, but common sense should be obvious. And, maybe the design guidelines should reflect that as well.

Or just require that the player lay up short of the mando to prevent having to play back towards the tee on the second shot.

Blind Mando without a spotter.. Who concocts these rinky dink ideas.. are we playing mini golf through the pinwheel? Or are we trying to make ourselves look like a professional sport that wants to be taken seriously..

We are trying to look like a professional hobby on courses that sometimes have safety or design issues that require the use of mandos. Other times, we are trying to make do with bailing wire and twine instead of earth movers and arborists.

That sounds about right..I'm not a huge fan of mandos. The Big B tier we are running this year has 1 on 3 courses.. for safety. I guess if you don't have enough trees in the right spots.. I just get spoiled with all of the kick ***** golf we have up here.

I can't remember ever playing a hole with a blind mando off the tee. Besides safety mandos, we have two "buried" mandos at Highbridge. These are mando trees back in the woods where a player would have to be trying to blaze an alternate trail to miss the mando and we don't anyone going that way.

I can't remember ever playing a hole with a blind mando off the tee.



never played morley field in a big tournament huh?
you have your opponents spotting if you cleared it or not
really silly way to do it :p

I can't remember ever playing a hole with a blind mando off the tee.



never played morley field in a big tournament huh?
you have your opponents spotting if you cleared it or not
really silly way to do it :p



Hole # 11 with the palm trees ? :D

of course...
you have a perfect shot that is 2 feet from the basket and your competition says it "just missed to the right"... where if it just missed to the right it would have stopped instead of being a drop in..

cheating baasstards :p