What is the proper etiquette involving bathroom breaks during tournament play? Are there any rules or stipulations on the subject?

What I have seen is this: guys pee in the woods. Most of the courses around here are heavily wooded. If you have to go you just walk over to bush and pee on the course. Is this the right thing for our courses? I am thinking that every time my disc ends up off of the fairway there is a good chance that someone took a #$*&$! there. It is a little gross to consider and is a good incentive to keep the disc on the fairway. Sometimes you just can not hold it and sometimes you need to go number two before the round ends. I am not advocating taking a dump on the course but how reasonable is it that I walk to the facilities and then back again when they are ten minutes away or more? Do I have to miss a hole to go empty one? How does this work?

I thought we had covered every thing at this point. Guess I was wrong.

I thought we had covered every thing at this point. Guess I was wrong.


I think so.

Perhaps the question should be directed to "Miss Manners" :D

In the alternative, this would be a golden opportunity to read through the entire rule book (perhaps even while you're sittting on the can before a tournament) and see what it says.

I keep my shots on the fairway, or only play after it rains... :)

Let's be honest, if you play in any park that has dogs near it you aren't just grabbin' pee. Furthermore, you're in much more danger from the toxins that the parks guys call fertilizer than you are from Urin, which just happens to be sterile when it comes out.

I can not find anything in the rule book specific to bathroom breaks and I was hoping that someone could shed some light on this. This is a valid and reasonable question. You are playing your round and you have an overwhelming need to defecate that can no longer be postponed. It is a simple scenario and I find it hard to believe that I am the only person this has ever happened to. There are two issues I would like to see addressed.

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ISSUE ONE: Can a person leave leave their group during competition to go use the proper facilities?
Yes,
Does the group wait at the next hole?
How long is reasonable for them to wait?

No,
Is the penalty for leaving the group two strokes plus par? 803.13 A(2)
Is it disqualification? 803.13 A(3)

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ISSUE TWO: Can you be disqualified from the tournament for public urination (and/or defecation)?

Both state and county law specify that it is illegal to urinate or defecate in the park. If a park ranger or officer sees you it will result in a warning, citation, or even arrest.

Washington State Administrative Code
WAC 352-32-180 Sanitation (http://search.leg.wa.gov/pub/textsearch/ViewRoot.asp?Action=Html&Item=0&X=406204507&p=1)

No person shall, in any state park area:
(5) Urinate or defecate except in designated facilities.


Pierce County (WA) Parks and Recreation Parks Code
Title 14 Parks and Recreation (http://www.co.pierce.wa.us/xml/services/recreate/parkcode14-08.pdf)

14.08.060 Prohibited Activities.
P. Blow, spread, or place any nasal or other bodily discharge, or spit, urinate, or defecate on
the floors, walls, partitions, furniture, fittings, or any portion of any park or facility,
except directly into the particular fixtures provided for that purpose;

It is clearly illegal to go to the bathroom on the disc golf course. The PDGA rules (804.05) specify that,

A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(4) Activities which are in violation of the law or park regulation or disc golf course rule, including the illegal consumption of drugs or alcohol.

Can people be disqualified for this kind of illegal activity? Should people be disqualified for this?

I think if this happens, you are SOL, so to speak. If you must go to the loo during a tournament round, you could either get par plus four for the holes you missed, or the TD could possibly disqualify you. That's if you use the proper facilities. If you relieve yourself on the course, you could potentially be arrested by the park authorities in addition to being DQ'd.

Unfortunate, but those are the options as I see it.

Can people be disqualified for this kind of illegal activity? Should people be disqualified for this?


I think it Depends.

If one goes to make a pit stop using proper facilities, the only rule that could apply after the round started would be an excessive time violation. This is only a warning for the first occurance and a stroke for each additional occuance. Since a warning needs to be given to the player, it can't be given until they get back. Looks like everyone gets to go once a round :D

The par+4 only applies to holes at the beginning of the round. It does not apply after the player has thrown at least one shot.

It's natural to pee in the woods. All the animals do it what difference does it make if people do it? You gonna get mad if a racoon doesn't use a bathroom? If a possum forgets to use toilet paper?

Every pee in the woods is a pee not being sent down the pipe to pollute the river. The stuff decomposes in a day and fertilizes the plants.

I think technically, and by the letter of our rules, yes...you could call somebody on a "peeing" violation (not sure what the exact penalty is...strokes, automatic DQ, warning, etc.).

A couple of things though...as most guys when they do head into the woods to relieve themselves, turn their back to you. If you called me on peeing in the woods, when you could only see my back from more than 50' away...I would call you a liar, claim that I was merely inspecting the local floura, and the burden of proof that I was peeing would on you.

Secondly --- I'd hate to be known as the guy who called a penalty or a courtesy warning on a card mate for peeing in the woods. Because from that point forward, the person who made the call would NEVER be able to #$*&$! in the woods again without retribution. There are rounds where I've not had to pee at all (unusual), and rounds that I've had to do so 3-5 times. I'd hate for it to be one of those 3-5 times rounds, and have my card mates looking to call me on it every single time.

With all that said, please don't take a dump in the park. Ever.

If one goes to make a pit stop using proper facilities, the only rule that could apply after the round started would be an excessive time violation. This is only a warning for the first occurance and a stroke for each additional occuance. Since a warning needs to be given to the player, it can't be given until they get back. Looks like everyone gets to go once a round :D

The par+4 only applies to holes at the beginning of the round. It does not apply after the player has thrown at least one shot.



Almost, but not quite correct. If you leave to go to the loo during the playing of a hole and exceed the 30 seconds, then yes you would only get a warning. But if your loo break extends to the next hole, then you would be subject to the par plus 4 penalty. The rule book does not indicate that the par plus 4 penalty is only for the first hole.

I think it would be rare to have a player call another player on this. It comes down essentially to enforcement of park rules first, not PDGA rules. If the park rule is you can't do it, then the ranger or other law enforcement person could cite or arrest you. Then, the PDGA rules say that if you violate park rules, you are subject to being DQ'd.

If you called me for peeing in the woods I would pee on your bag when your driving. Some times the rounds are just too long. I was in a round that was 3+ hours. Can you honestly think that I can hold my self for that long, with all that walking and waiting around? Toss'n a duece is another story. I think that should not be allowed to happen on the course. If you can't take care of that before or hold it till after you should get stroked for holding up the card. I only say that for the time thing and the leaving it on the course thing. If there is a facility and you can growl and go so that there is no hold up to the card then that would be okay imao.

tee hee, the topic is Bathroom etiquette. How funny...

You SHOULD relieve yourself in a proper facility. Guys just have the advantage of scampering off pretty much anywhere. The local term is "looking for a lost disc".

It would be a cold day in H E double hockey sticks when a woman would call someone on a time violation for stopping off at the restroom.

Let's use some common sense fellas.

Common sence ??? Surely you jest :D

Common sence ??? Surely you jest :D



I know it's a long shot, but you have to try! :D

It's common sense. And stop calling me Shirley. :D

Almost, but not quite correct. If you leave to go to the loo during the playing of a hole and exceed the 30 seconds, then yes you would only get a warning. But if your loo break extends to the next hole, then you would be subject to the par plus 4 penalty. The rule book does not indicate that the par plus 4 penalty is only for the first hole.



The Par+4 penalty is described in section 804.02-Beginning Play. It applies to both Staggered starts and Shotgun starts. It only applies at the start of a round, it is not mentioned in any other part of the rule book. This has been discussed at length before.

Quit and take a 7 (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=191212&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1)

Can people be disqualified for this kind of illegal activity? Should people be disqualified for this?


I think it Depends.



Yes - DEPENDS would be an appropriate solution in this case. No penalties except the stank factor.

tee hee, the topic is Bathroom etiquette. How funny...

I'm with Nick on this one..this is funny. Now I would like to be able have multiple orgasms, but I got the ability to tinkle standing up! It's the old adage "Because we can!"

sorry ladies you got the short end of the stick (pardon the pun!)

We have two bathrooms at Emerald Isle. At the players meeting I tell everyone that urinating on the course is a DQ-able offense, and to take a "pee of opportunity" when they pass the bathrooms.

I also tell them to go to the bathroom if an emergency arises, and to let other groups play through if they are waiting on a cardmate that is using the facilities.

That works...but a lot of courses and tournaments have NO restroom facilities near or on the course.

The par+4 only applies to holes at the beginning of the round. It does not apply after the player has thrown at least one shot.



Almost, but not quite correct. If you leave to go to the loo during the playing of a hole and exceed the 30 seconds, then yes you would only get a warning. But if your loo break extends to the next hole, then you would be subject to the par plus 4 penalty. The rule book does not indicate that the par plus 4 penalty is only for the first hole.



The group cannot go on to the next hole if I haven't holed out on the previous hole. If it's my turn to throw, it's my turn to throw regardless of how long I took taking care of business. If the card did begin throwing on the next hole then they would be subject to a courtesy violation (802.01.E)

Hmm that makes even more sense. Courtesy violations for all who get impatient with someone needing to use the loo. :D

Once you have a warning for 30-second violation, there's nothing I can see that restricts your group from calling more penalties on the same shot for further delays.

Very interesting! There are those that have "regular" systems and some have different severities of IBS (Irritable Bowel Symptom). With IBS there is not your normal build up; it is SUDDEN!!!

Anyway, in a year and a half of tournament play I've been fortunate to be able to complete my rounds w/o having to use the No. 2 facilities--whatever they may be (woods certainly being my preference over a nasty flooded stinky restroom.)

Simply put, if you gotta go you gotta go. And I mean quick!!! :o I can walk into Casa Ole and eat a few chips and my stomach will start to rumble. lmao Scuse me, b right back. whew

to call someone for peeing in the trees you would actually need to see it and have it seconded. that means seeing more than just a stream splashing on the ground - after all he could just be emptying a water bottle. you would both need to see the source - the "headwaters" so to speak. which raises the question - why are you, and the seconder, looking so closely?

This is sexism. Men can pee on the course anytime and women have to hold it in. Don't you think women have a hard time holding it for 3 hours? What if Juliana is playing USDGC where men and women are in the same division. Don't you think that would be an unfair advantage if she's playing against men who can just whip it out and she has to hold it. Maybe the full bladder would make her miss a few putts.

I think I'll go on American Inventors with my new inventon of a she-male urination device so women can unzip while standing, insert the devise, and pee while standing up. That will remove the unfair advantage that men have so people can play 18 holes without delay. I'm sure Innova, Gateway and Discraft will be able to manufacture them with hot stamps and they will be great freebies for women's divisions.

Once you have a warning for 30-second violation, there's nothing I can see that restricts your group from calling more penalties on the same shot for further delays.



But a warning has to be issued first, and I'd have to believe that the offender would need to hear and acknowledge the warning for that part of the rules to be completed before strokes can start being given.

Casual round is one thing, a tourney round is another.

A few years ago I was in a tournament and a guy in my group throws his drive and then runs to the porta-potty. Our group is finishing up the hole and this guy hasn't returned yet. Now there is a group waiting for us on the tee. We stalled a little bit and finally the guy comes sprinting out of the can and finishes the hole.

We were getting real close to moving on to the next tee without him. I'm afraid if he didn't return before the next group teed off he would have been disqualified. Hate to see that happen to anyone but you can't hold other groups up on the tee while you pinch one.

I would not call a violation on someone for discretely peeing off in the distance. Number two is the real issue.

A few years ago I was in a tournament and a guy in my group throws his drive and then runs to the porta-potty. Our group is finishing up the hole and this guy hasn't returned yet. Now there is a group waiting for us on the tee. We stalled a little bit and finally the guy comes sprinting out of the can and finishes the hole.




Unless he aced the hole, there should have been a courtesy violation for out of order play if you didn't wait for him.

You can always scatter a couple of these (http://www.bumperdumper.com/) around the course.

A few years ago I was in a tournament and a guy in my group throws his drive and then runs to the porta-potty. Our group is finishing up the hole and this guy hasn't returned yet. Now there is a group waiting for us on the tee. We stalled a little bit and finally the guy comes sprinting out of the can and finishes the hole.




Unless he aced the hole, there should have been a courtesy violation for out of order play if you didn't wait for him.



I disagree. We bent the rules for his benefit. He (his lie) was out for several minutes. While he wasn't at his lie, the entire group arrived and then subsequently proceeded ahead of his lie about 6 times more than the standard 30 seconds alloted for a player to play his shot. If we were playing strictly by the rules by my understanding he would have been disqualified for failure to complete the hole.

If you search on the internet you can find at least five funnel devices already out there for women. So you are going to be a little late at the patent office.

The rule is NOT 30 seconds.

The rule is 30 seconds after ... reasonable time to arrive at the disc ...

What is reasonable may depend upon the circumstances. That is why weasel words like those are thrown into the rules. That is why I'm not breaking or bending the rules when I tell my players they can take a reasonable time to use the facilities when they are nearby.

Y'all threw out of order like Krupicka said, unless you came to a group decision that you had waited a reasonable amount of time, which you didn't because you didn't even know the rule.

What's a reasonable time? Try being reasonable and it will be a little more clear.

Oh for the love of pete people. Let people go to the restroom if they have to! All this 30 seconds penalty talk is rediculous. Common courstesy, folks. No one can be in THAT big of a hurry that you can't stop for the call of nature.

It will be a cold day in H E double hockey sticks (again :D) before I resort to toting some STUPID funnel thing so I can take a whizz in the woods!

Have some porta-potties if your course doesn't have a regular restroom.

"Reasonable time" is not a defined term. In the situation I referred to the golfer in question had exceeded what most people would consider reasonable. The group behind us had been on the tee waitnig for several minutes and they were wondering why we hadn't already proceeded to the next tee.

We had stalled as long as we could and I was approaching the waiting group to explain the situation and discuss what should be done at the time the delaying golfer returned.

Had it been a lost disc, he'd been stroked several times over.

Tell me Bruce, what is reasonable? Three minutes, ten minutes? Two groups backed up? At some point action has to be taken. In 18 yrs this was the only time it was becoming an issue. The hole was a 200' hole which normally takes a foursome 2-4 minutes to play and he'd been in the crapper for about 6 minutes and the group behind us had been waiting about 5 minutes already. Nobody wants to be the bad guy and DQ a guy simply because his breakfast didn't agree with his digestive tract, but at the same time sometimes compassion for one individual clashes with rules of play and fairness to the other 71 players on the course (and the other 72 players from the other flight waiting to take the course).

I guess we all need a rear-mounted funnel device so we can pinch while standing, with a super duper pooper scooper attachment like on a lawn mower

Always the entrepreneur, aren't ya Morgan?

Let me know how many you sell in your first 12 months of production.

Once the reasonable time is up and 30 more seconds have expired, then you can issue him a warning for the infraction. If he's not back then he could not have received the warning and you need to wait for him to give it to him. Since the guy was intending on finishing the hole he cannot be DQ'd under 803.13A. You gotta wait and be courteous.

In addition, players cannot DQ another player, the TD has to be involved for that. So the proper thing to do here would be to go find a TD who will probably tell you to lighten up and let the guy take care of business.

Sorry they have the rear funnel invented already as well its called Depends

Okay, after reviewing several rules I'd say we could have (if we lived my the letter of the law) deemed 60 seconds ( from when the previous player threw and he was determined to be out) a reasonable amount of time to arrive at his lie. Then after 30 seconds we could have informed him through the airvent/window of the portajohn that he was being served a warning for excessive time. Then for every successive 30 second time period thereafter he failed to play his shot he would be assessed a stroke penalty. Had we done that he would have been laying 10 shooting 11 when he finally came out of the portajohn.

Or a less costly option would have been to complete the hole without him (which we did after a group decision) and proceed to the next hole (we didn't do that). He would have been assessed a two stroke penalty and joined us on the next hole. In the second option he would have received a 4 instead of a 11 or 12 from ruling it the other way.

I'm not trying to be a stickler. I'm just saying in this situation the guy took 5 times longer than you would normally expect. We were beginning to wonder if he was in fact coming back. The tournament had two flights and finishing the tournament during daylight hours was a concern.(Is always a concern with this tourney and two flights).

Okay, after reviewing several rules I'd say we could have (if we lived my the letter of the law) deemed 60 seconds ( from when the previous player threw and he was determined to be out) a reasonable amount of time to arrive at his lie.

I am an amateur disc golfer but a professional arbiter of reasonableness. Reasonableness is one of the lynch pins of negligence law, contract interpretation, discovery procedures and all types of issues I write up every day.

Take it from a pro: you're being unreasonable. :D

Autobaun Open Garland Texas a few years ago, Nature called with about 15 min before the round started.

I went to the restroom in the rec center and heard "START" as I was walking out the front door.

I was starting on hole #2 which was a good 1000 ft or further away.

By the time I got there, they were walking to there 2nd shots. They told me to take my shot and I refused and told them I must take a 7 because I was late.

That 7 took me out of the money (finished 2 strokes out of the cash) BUT I did not cheat. Now I try to go WAY before the round starts.

Okay, after reviewing several rules I'd say we could have (if we lived my the letter of the law) deemed 60 seconds ( from when the previous player threw and he was determined to be out) a reasonable amount of time to arrive at his lie.

I am an amateur disc golfer but a professional arbiter of reasonableness. Reasonableness is one of the lynch pins of negligence law, contract interpretation, discovery procedures and all types of issues I write up every day.

Take it from a pro: you're being unreasonable. :D


Sounds to me like he and his group were in fact very reasonable -- they waited, the player wasn't DQ'ed or penalized, and the player was allowed to finish the hole. And the rules would have allowed the group to make it a big deal, if they wanted.

The only thing that seems to me to be unreasonable here are the rules, but out of concern for the player, they weren't strictly followed in this instance.

One other question, with the speed of play rules, could the player pre-approve closer players to proceed when he was the away player. T

That way his 30 seconds would not start until all other players had holed out and there were no closer players.

One other question, with the speed of play rules, could the player pre-approve closer players to proceed when he was the away player. T

That way his 30 seconds would not start until all other players had holed out and there were no closer players.



I would be agreeable to this if a player on my card requested it, and it was reasonable to expect that they could get to, complete, and return from the restroom in that time.

One other question, with the speed of play rules, could the player pre-approve closer players to proceed when he was the away player. T

That way his 30 seconds would not start until all other players had holed out and there were no closer players.


More reasonable would be for the player in question to request "speed of play" priority to finish the hole first and dash for the rest room. It would also be easier for the group to stand aside and let other groups play through if they are on the tee, although nothing prohibits that from happening in the middle of a hole, too.

For those who like to abuse the rules, you can stand aside while waiting for "an official ruling".

Some days are more amusing than others. Does anyone here really think the RC (past or present) feels that someone going to the bathroom is in violation of the 30 second rule? The day I stroke someone for going to the bathroom is the day I assume I'm the worlds biggest donkey.

That depends, Lyle. If someone gets in their car and drives 3 miles to the closest McDonalds to use a nice clean toilet, instead of going to the nearest tree, I'd say they should be penalized.

Does speed of play count on the tee ?
Can you allow others to throw ahead of you without them or you encurring a penalty ?

Can you allow others to throw ahead of you without them or you encurring a penalty ?



Ladies groups have done this for years. It keeps play moving along. It is a courtesy violation to throw out of order. The only penalty for the first offense would be a warning.

It would also be easier for the group to stand aside and let other groups play through if they are on the tee, although nothing prohibits that from happening in the middle of a hole, too.




Are you really permitted to allow another group to play through during a pdga event?

Re-read the one line you didn't quote. :)

At EIEIO I announce at the player's meeting that you should let other groups play through if someone on your card has an emergency and has to run to the bathroom. The course is on a ball golf course with houses surrounding it, so I absolutely do not want disc golfers stepping into the bushes and peeing right in front of someone's window.

If you build it they will pee :D
the problem with most courses is there is one or none :(

Re-read the one line you didn't quote. :)




I did and I didn't think it was germaine to my question.

Had he done that (putted out then darted to the portajohn), we would have had a similar problem after we all finished the hole and the group behind us all finished the hole and had two groups waiting to tee the next hole.

He was gone for a total of about 10 minutes (on a very short course, SSA around 45) so we would've had some sort of delay no matter which hole or shot he took off on.

you could call for the TD or an official to make a ruling on what to do. The rules allow you to let other groups play through while you are waiting on an official to make a ruling.

While the incident I referred to was the only one I've encountered in 18 yrs of playing, if it ever happens again I'll be more aware of my(our) options.

At the time I wasn't even aware that he was in the bathroom. He was the first to tee and then dissappeared for ten minutes. It worked out okay, he wasn't penalized. Because of this discussion I'm more informed. So now it's sure to never come up again. (It'll be some other bizarre situation)