It seems like there are going to be several tournaments this year that are only 3 rounds. Z boaz was 3 and a half, states this year in Oklahoma is going to be 3 and I heard that KCWO for Ams is going to be 3 rounds. Isnt there a rule for for a certian tier event that you need to play 3 rounds, whats the deal?

maybe it has to do with time constraints

Can you find where more rounds are required? The only requirement I can find is that players are guaranteed at least 36 holes for all tiers. Although this process is used more often in other countries, you can have cuts to half the field after just 36 holes and still meet the current guidelines.

The standards only dictate the number of days, not the number of rounds or holes.

[edited]
Chuck, where do you find the 36 hole requirement?

The standards say A-tiers have to be two or three day events,
B&C tier one or two days, and D tier one day.

It seems like there are going to be several tournaments this year that are only 3 rounds. Z boaz was 3 and a half, states this year in Oklahoma is going to be 3 and I heard that KCWO for Ams is going to be 3 rounds. Isnt there a rule for for a certian tier event that you need to play 3 rounds, whats the deal?



It seems that with the number of players going to "Larger" events, TD's are trying to allow for MORE players.

Most NT's are only 3 rounds this year (Memorial, Golden State Classic, etc) and have gone to Staggered" start instead of "Shotgun" This allows for MORE players, since no more than 5somes are allowed "Shotgun" limits the field to 90 (When there are only 18 holes)

There are arguments for both.....Some want MORE golf for their money....Others want to be able to get on the road home earlier....Still others do it for the ability to have a Finals and still get done at a reasonable hour.

For me it depends on the event...

Id rather be able to play in LARGER fields and play 3 rounds than be limited to 90 players so I can play 4.

Most events that I travel to involves extensive travel (3hours min) so I like the fact that I can get on the road a little earlier once in awhile.

Frankly, from the standpoint of running tournaments, it would be nice to have two rounds on day one and one round on day two with perhaps a nine-hole playoff. It would make it less grueling for the staff and the out-of-towners could get a head start on going home.

Most NT's are only 3 rounds this year (Memorial, Golden State Classic, etc)



And the Memorial had 27 holes at Vista (I think, maybe it was only 24), so while not a full 72 holes, it was more than just 54. Not sure about the other tournaments.

I prefer four rounds. If I have to travel, I don't want just one round on Sunday. On the other hand, I hate waiting until 6:00 AM or later to get on the road.

The tournaments I run start early on Sunday, play two rounds and have gotten everyone on the road by 4:30 PM. You just have to be strict about running things.

The downside is I pre-package the payouts. Pick you own is great until it is 6:00 at night and no end is in sight. I like final 9's too, but if you do that then in my opinion it should be the top of every division. I have to drive a minimum of 2 hours for most tournaments that I go to, with quite a few of them in the 4 to 6 hour range and I do not like getting home at 2:00 AM either. Still I like four rounds.

The Texas States NT is 2 rounds of 18 on Saturday (shotgun start), followed on Sunday by a round of 27 (staggered start). 63 total holes.

Chuck, where do you find the 36 hole requirement?



Middle of page 4 in the Sanctioning Agreement

That's interesting. Technically, we could have an A-tier where we only play 12 holes per day for 3 days, and it would satisfy the sanctioning agreement and tier standards.

And the Memorial had 27 holes at Vista (I think, maybe it was only 24), so while not a full 72 holes, it was more than just 54.



UH, where were you Jim?? :confused:

I guess, I should have been stroked since I only played 18 HOLES at Vista Friday and Sunday :p

/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
:D

UH, where were you Jim?? :confused:

<--- TX


I guess, I should have been stroked since I only played 18 HOLES at Vista Friday and Sunday


Oh yeah, forgot about that. I was thinking the previous years.

The competiton of 4 rounds is one reason I like going to play tournys because that fourth round could make all of the difference.

I'm old. I'd rather get home at a reasonable hour than play a fourth round.

Rhett,

I don't think you are older than me!??


I'm old. I'd rather get home at a reasonable hour than play a fourth round.

3 rounds and a final 9

the final 9 has seemed to be faded out as of late. The final 9 is a GREAT WAY to showcase the top players and show the players with lesser abilities some of the sublties of the game.

The final 9 is a great idea if executed properly, otherwise it is largely a waste of time for most of the players.

There are 2 key ingredients to a final 9 to make it interesting enough for me to go and watch.
1) The course must allow the gallery an effective view of the holes being played and the players playing them.
2) The course used should be a modified course that brings requires more judgement and power or finesse shots. You need more showmanship, more oohs and aahs from the crowd.

If done correctly, they are fun for the players and the spectators. If they are just played on the same old holes that everybody just played, they are often boring.

<font color="blue"> Oh, one more thing, the spectators should have a map that shows just what is going to be played so they can be in the best spots to observe.</font>

The purpose of the final is to buy time for the TD to get the checks/scrip/prizes ready for the awards ceremony so that the players don't have to wait around with nothing to do. :)

To take McClure for example.

With this layout, the gallery could hang out on the middle sidewalk and see all of the holes, no need to jog ahead and find a good spot. Most of the shots have the opportunity for brilliance, or dramatic failure. And it would be fun to watch.


First hole from across the creek from 11's basket to 2's basket with the creek and beyond and sidewalk and beyond OB. Drop zone on the sidewalk above 1's basket. A little too righty friendly, but we'll make up for that.

Second hole. From the sidewalk between 1 & 2 to 3's basket. Not too much longer, but a tougher shot with the mixed elevations.

3) No really cool holes come to mind that end at 4's basket, but I'm sure that one is there.

4) From the sidewalk above 4's basket to 5's basket. Put the tee where a straight line to the basket requires about 370'-400' (downhill) to clear the fence. Do the players layup right, or go at the pin. The difference is a 150' up shot into the hill, or a 250' upshot along the hill.

5) Back down the hill, shooting up at 6's basket.

7) Go on over the hill, and shoot at 8's (or 9's) basket from near the road. Set the tee so the creek is about 340'-370'. Long low line drive under the trees for a 2(3), or lay up short of the creek for a 3(4) ?

8)Big arm shots. Start across from 3's tee to 12's basket.
Not a great scoring differential, but the crowd should like it.

9) From near 13's tee to 11's (short) basket. Do you keep the disc on the high ground and make it longer, or try to go straight at the pin and risk being at the bottom of the hill throwing straight over the sidewalk to a green that drops toward the creek ?

This layout has generally straight forward risk/reward options the crowd can see and appreciate plus easy access for the gallery. You loose 13-18, but including those holes would mean the crossing the creek for the gallery, and the viewing angles are not as good for a gallery on those holes.

At the Newport News Fall Colors Tournament, we have three rounds and a final nine. Although there is some debate within the club as to who should be in the final nine, I think it is a good format. The final nine holes are played from the gold tees, which are not used during the other three rounds.

Using the typical weekend tourney as a standard, I don't think four rounds of golf will work unless you start on Day Two early enough to have awards at 4 PM. As evidenced by people asking early for their prizes, it seems that most folks want to get on the road home around that time.

Personally, I prefer that the final-9 be made up of holes that were used in the tournament. The locals have enough advantage without breaking out the secret "local only" holes at very end. :)

Rhett, that is one advantage of made up holes, they don't need to be the same from year to year, and don't need to be announced prior to the start of the final 9.

No home field advantage. If you want some familiarity by the players, announce them at the beginning of the tournament.

3 Rounds ROCKS!
4 is too many!
Back when I started at age 27 that was ok. Now at age 45, it truly sucks to play 4.

No home field advantage. If you want some familiarity by the players, announce them at the beginning of the tournament.


Sounds good in theory, Gary, but every "safari" final-9 or "break out the special positions" final-9 I have witnessed used positions that were well known by the locals but a mystery to everyone else. :eek:

I agree that it is a challenge to the TD/Course pro to come up with new holes that present very specific (and obvious) challenges/opportunities for the players, good viewing/traffic lines for the spectators, and keep the locals guessing as much as the traveling players.

beaver state fling's NT event will be interesting this year.
ALL pros will play 2 rounds on Friday,
then 1 on sat and 1 on sunday.
4 rounds guaranteed, don't know about finals.

ams will only play on the weekend alternating between
the 2 courses (all at one park this year)
and having scheduled tee times

Back in the day we used to play 3 round PDGAs in one day (even at Brandywine) AND follow it up with a nearly required random draw doubles.

Why that all has changed is unknown.

Personally, as courses get better and more challenging, AND TDs stop forcing us to play the pitch 'n putt layouts, multiple rounds per day become less necessary. I'm at the point where I'd rather just have the TD put the course in it's most challenging format and just let us have at it as many times as time allows; if that's 3 times a day, fine, if its 2 or even 1, great!

What kills me these days is how folks evacuate events at the end like if they don't get home before dark they'll turn into pumpkins!

I know not everyone has to be best friends, but the culture has definitely changed, things are much more business like.

I think this is why events that harken back to those days are such successes year after year.

Personally, I prefer that the final-9 be made up of holes that were used in the tournament. The locals have enough advantage without breaking out the secret "local only" holes at very end. :)



Most sports i can think of have some kind of home field/court advantage,what makes our sport any different?Furthermore,most people don't play these final nine setups becouse thay tend to play across the course in such a way that makes it dangerous for other golfers playing the regular setup.

I myslef prefer 4 rounds cuz i am addicted!

That's a good point Rhett, but no one plays the gold tees at Newport News except for the B-tier in the fall. Most of the players out there are addicted to Par 3 golf and play the short tees.

I think the more we break away from Par 3 and build longer, more challenging courses, the less inclined we are to have four rounds of golf in a Sat./Sun tournament. The new course I'm building in Williamsburg takes about 2 hrs. for a foursome to play 18 holes. Plenty of opportunity for a tournament-only final 9, so I think the course lends itself to 3 rounds and a final 9 for a tourney.

I have a question for all of you then, what if the tournament is played on two courses? Would your preference be only three rounds or four?

I still prefer four rounds one course or two.

Having cuts to Semis and Finals is a standard format in Japan. Also, their pros might yen for American style payouts.

www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5092#Open (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5092#Open)
www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5093#Open (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5093#Open)
www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5097#Open (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5097#Open)

So the Ams only play one round and a final? I am assuming this is how they get a large gallery. If that were the case here I would play alot more big tournies since I am one of the rare fans of the sport. Probably wouldn't work here cause from my view point it appears here the players are not even fans of the sport for the most part. They just wanna get their stack and bail. Begs the question: If what i see here is in fact true, I wonder if that is a result of our promotion of greed in the amatuer ranks? We'll never know for sure so no need to answer.

their pros might yen for American style payouts.



Okay Chuck. I'm starting to feel queesy after that one.

We all get our entertainment in a variety of ways on here :)

Regarding 3 or 4 rounds for tournaments:
In my opinion it depends on the type of course. If I were playing a short course with all par 3s I would definitely prefer to have four rounds since they shouldn't take very long and wouldn't be very strenuous. If the courses were more modern courses with par 4s that actually take a while to get through 18, I think two on the first day and one on the second day is sufficient. I still prefer to play four rounds, but I can see where that could create some difficult scenarios for the TD and for some of the older golfers who start to break down mid-way through the third round. But if there is only going to be three full rounds, I think it is totally appropriate to have a final nine for the top card.

Another plug for the Memorial. That style of golf is what I have been dreaming about for the last couple years. I love the Vista course layout with all the OB and 2 and 3 drive holes. That is what I want to see more of!

Scott,

Why is it greed? Almost every other sport that plays at a competitive level, above college play, also has payout. Do you believe that if the ratio of open payout to amateur prizes is high that suddenly is not greed? I am just trying to get an understanding of how you see this. Is it greed if I give away the majority of my discs to youth activities? Is it greed if the majority of my winnings are donated as sponsorship at my tournament? If I keep a couple of discs for myself, is it greed then? If I get a single item for my winnings, regardless of whether it is a t-shirt or a basket, at what point does it become avarice on my part? I am not trying to pick a fight, and I know that is seems that way, I just don't understand.


So the Ams only play one round and a final? I am assuming this is how they get a large gallery. If that were the case here I would play alot more big tournies since I am one of the rare fans of the sport. Probably wouldn't work here cause from my view point it appears here the players are not even fans of the sport for the most part. They just wanna get their stack and bail. Begs the question: If what i see here is in fact true, I wonder if that is a result of our promotion of greed in the amatuer ranks? We'll never know for sure so no need to answer.

I have a question for all of you then, what if the tournament is played on two courses? Would your preference be only three rounds or four?

I still prefer four rounds one course or two.



Four rounds. Two rounds per course. Also really depends on the actual length of each course. If the course is par 72 versus par 54 or 56 , then yes , one round per course.

Maybe greed was too harsh of a word. An increasing number of players that i talk to/play with/play around, care about what they are going to win as far as plastic etc. They dont care about much else in an event, sure they want to play a great course and have a good TD (which good normally equals a TD with fat payout and if you get to pick, even better). What i am talking about is motivation, why the players are playing events. Defend your personal motives all you want but you are in the minority as far as what motivates our current amatuers to play in events imo. The system was specifically designed for players to be motivated to attend mostly by stacks of plastic. I dont think anyone has ever denied that or tried to keep it a secret. To me that is promotion of greed (or insert a slightly less harsh word).

I think the lower entry fees and flatter payouts may curb some of that greed. The new payouts mean less of a reward for the winner, and something worthwhile for a lot more lower finishing players than was there before.

(Stirring the hornet's nest/ON) Probably most of us 'non-professionals' play because we love the sport...heck, I know I wish I was better! But come on...amateurism is for teens and possibly young 20-somethings. Amateurism is there, in theory perhaps, to preserve the innocence of sportmanship. I left my 30s behind over 3 years ago...I ain't innocent, I love to compete, & I want to compete against folks of similar skill and age because I want a more level playing field. Why should I have to be playing amateur DG? Because I'm not pro level?? Jeez, I'm all 'growed' up and still an amateur?? Seems kinda childish... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif (Stirring the hornet's nest/OFF)

There's no point here, so just browse along...! :D

There's no point here, so just browse along...! :D



naw, there is a point, but your hair hides it well /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

This topic is the classic "damned if you do; damned if you don't".

For every player that has strong preferences for one format, there are other players that have a strong dislike for that format. There are so many variables that a TD needs to consider when deciding on a format for their event. How many players can their course(s) accomodate? What time of year is the event, and what daylight is present? How challening and grueling are the layouts? Is my event going to be better or worse-attended if I spread it to 3 days instead of two to allow more rounds or smaller groups? Etc Etc.

Our Skylands Classic at Warwick NT event is 2 rounds on Saturday and 2 rounds on Sunday, with one round on each of the 4 Warwick layouts. If it was strictly up to me (and it's not) I'd change the format and have 1 round with tee times spread over a 5-hour period on Friday; 2 rounds on Saturday: and the final 18 on Sunday, once again with tee times spread over a 5-hour period. This allows for a more leisurely pace and allows for players to take in more of the action on Friday and Sunday. Obviously the downside is this 3-day format requires participants to blow off a day of work in most cases, which might reduce the field size. For some events that have a huge following (e.g. the Memorial) evidently that is not an issue.

What do folks think of this format? (1 round friday; 2 saturday; 1 round sunday)...

Dan Doyle
TD, Skylands Classic at Warwick

From a purely golf standpoint, that's great. However, as you said yourself, the Friday thing is probably going to reduce your turnout.

I think this is something that will eventually become more common as disc golf grows as a sport. But like having officials on every hole, we're not quite there yet.

I agree entirely Dan. And if it was up to me, that is how the MSDGC would be too. Luckily (perhaps for both of us), it is not strictly up to us, as going to 3 days might make our events not fill. I believe it will get there, but as Mike says, we're not there yet.

Steve.

PS. It will be fun when we get there so we can have the 3 day vs. 4 day discussion!

I think we've had enough events with rounds on Friday to get a feel for what elements might be important for success in terms of turnouts if you start on Friday. Good course quality doesn't appear to make much of a difference for good turnout in general, regardless whether an event starts on Friday or Saturday. It's still a relevant factor but won't sway players to come on Friday by itself.

The Memorial has the snowbird getaway aspect in a major city with easy access to the site and easy access to the park with nearby lodging and Duke's. Huge payouts are relevant, but may not be enough to get locals out if other elements aren't also present.

It seems like the "success breeds success" aspect is as important as anything. If an event like the Bowling Green Ams wanted to go to Friday start, it would still be successful because it already is. So, if your event isn't already filling, it won't necessarily be better and probably get worse turnouts by going to a Friday start.

I dunno Mike. I think some are there. If a tournament fills way ahead of time every year because so many want to attend then you wouldn't be shooting yourself in the foot to use Friday as day 1. It's going to fill anyway so they should be able to use whatever structure they want and not have an issue.

Hi Dan,

If I haven't been clear or communicative on this to this point let me try again.

I'll likely come to your event regardless of these factors because your event meets 3 of my main criteria for going too an event, those being:

1) Great Course (to play on)
2) Great TD (running it)
3) Great Friends (will be there)

This being said here is my strong dislike, and perhaps it is just me, I can accept this:

1) Being forced to play courses that are not appropriate to my skill level. Specifically, under my skill level, not challenging enough. I'm fine with above my skill level to a degree...
2) Being forced to play layouts that are not "the best" option available for all rounds.

I am fine with tee times and one round a day so long as it is Warwick in it's "one and only" best layout. Not that everything is in it's longs, but that everything is in it's best, most challenging, funnest, cool layout.

I strongly dislike not being able to be afforded the opportunity to play a courses toughest hole or holes more than "one time" a year. I want to have as many chances to shoot well on those holes as I can. If I shoot a triple bogie on hole 18 for example one round, I'd not only like to have a chance to better that score (in the same year and event) but the more jovial side of me would like my buddies who got a par (in that one round) another chance to enjoy the hole the same way I did when I took a triple bogie. I've travelled 3.5 hours, gotten a hotel room, ponied up hard earned cash (which is basically sponsorship since I am a lifetime 965 golfer) and now I have to play 4 rounds on a different layout!?! None of which in my opinion are as a grouping the very best layouts...

I feel the same way when I go to Seneca, Patapsco, Knob Hill and Tyler and have expressed my feelings directly to the TDs involved. I do understand that they have to consider a wider audience than just me, so I don't press overly hard on it. Still, as far back as I can remember, the best tournaments spent months getting "The One" layout cleaned up and ready to challenge all comers and let them have at it for as many rounds as they could manage.

Brandywine
Laurel Springs
Paw Paw
USDGC

I'd really like to see that tradition continue on and have more Major events stick to the same one or two layouts all event long. It makes story telling at the event party or years later much more easy when you don't have to say, "Yeah, I took a 8 on 18 at the Skylands on the Red tees to the Blue basket." Instead you just say "I took an 8, 5, 6 and 5 on that bastard of a whole 18 at Warwick last year." and everyone knows exactly what you are talking about.

Having a single layout makes it easier on "non-tourning" pros too, because they don't have to take off a day of work to try and play a round on each of the layouts on the preceding Friday, one round will do nicely.

So, yes, damned if you do damned if you don't, might as well do what you want to do and set a higher standard. Folks might moan, but they will remember it always, particularly on a course like Warwick with a TD like Dan Doyle and folks around like NEFA/MADC...

Regards,
Nick Kight

One question: Is Jeff LaGrassa going to be spotting on hole 3 this year? ;)

beaver state fling's NT event will be interesting this year.
ALL pros will play 2 rounds on Friday,
then 1 on sat and 1 on sunday.
4 rounds guaranteed, don't know about finals.

ams will only play on the weekend alternating between
the 2 courses (all at one park this year)
and having scheduled tee times



What Brock said. He didn't specify tee times for pros on the weekend, but I hope that's the case. I think for the future of big sponsorship that our big pro events should follow pro golf with one round per day on spectator-friendly par 70ish courses. The Sunday tee-time format should allow am's to be finished before the lead pro card tees to be able to join the spectator crowd. (This may preclude 36 holes for am's on Sundays)

Also, at NT's and Majors we should have a cut before the final round for pro's, and down the road when sponsorship is bigger go to a cut before the final 36.

A note to TD's from an amateur player: PLEASE stop adding lame extra holes to squeeze in a few more players. I played a tournament last year on a solid disc golf course where the td added 6 extra "par 2's" for a tournament with 3 rounds of 24. His rationale for these holes was that the course didn't offer enough "easy ace-runs". Are we playing disc golf or ace run?

IMHO, for all divisions: all rounds should be 18 holes with no "par 2's", 4 players max per group, and tee-times whenever feasible.

A 72 player limit is pretty restrictive.

One question: Is Jeff LaGrassa going to be spotting on hole 3 this year? ;)



Yes. And if I feel like making a comment to you during the tournament I will, and maybe this year you'll stand up like a man instead of running crying to the Marshall or Tournament Director.

Bigger and more is better...heck, I'm gonna play open at KCWO just to get in more rounds. Sure, I'm gonna get spanked, but it should be fun. (no comments on that one please ;) )

A 72 player limit is pretty restrictive.


Use more than one course. Have the pros play all 3 or 4 rounds on a par 70 course and have the other divisions play one round on the long course and the other 2 or 3 rounds on a traditional disc golf course(s).

A good way to find out how it would work would be for a very popular tournament that fills every year to take the plunge and announce that they will be changing the format to start on friday and have the tee times, etc. as was mentioned. It requires some risk to be taken, but if the tournament is popular enough, perhaps the turnout will still be strong.