Mar 16 2006, 12:09 PM
Attention all 27 of you fellow Pro golfers, we should come together and we should form a UNION to protect our rights against the Amatureism of our game.

http://journalism.wlu.edu/rrarchive/10-07-2003/images/UAW.jpg

We need to have a voice for OUR RIGHTS! The organization that we belong to is using our likeness and our abilities to promote their organization and what are we seeing out of it? NOTHING but catering to AMATEURS! I had enough of it!

#$*&$! UNION WORKERS UNITE and take back the game we LOVE! :D:D:D:D:D

just kiddin guys :D

gnduke
Mar 16 2006, 12:58 PM
I would really think that something of this sort should exist since most professional golfers could use help with insurance or group rates at hotels and rental car outfits.

the_kid
Mar 16 2006, 01:29 PM
So what would you do? Quit playing? If so without those 27 guys I will be getting a lot more money at tournaments.

See you this weekend Kev

neonnoodle
Mar 16 2006, 04:17 PM
Top players, except for maybe Kenny and Barry, are not likely to have the same effect on a disc golf event as your average to top ball golfer will have at a golf event; where greater attention and news focus is brought to the event.

In disc golf it is almost the opposite effect, when 980 to 950 golfers hear the event will be an NT or A Tier they are actually less likely to play due to the fact that all of the money spots have been taken, leaving them added cash on average. And where is the benefit to the event? Greater media coverage? More sponsorship dollars? Larger galleries? I find no evidence that top disc golfers enhance PDGAs in any financial way.

I think some one on this board discussed this at length a while back. Dr. Fred perhaps. At any rate, I think Kevin and other Pro Tour Hopefuls would do well to consider how their presense "helps" or "enhances" and event, more than they spend time considering how events should better help or enhance their experience.

Don't you?

terrycalhoun
Mar 16 2006, 05:26 PM
One thing that has not been communicated yet, was a proposal - I think from Pete May, but I could be wrong - that the board approved at The Summit that will begin work on a "Teaching Pro" certification program.

I think that having certified teaching pros will give some of our non-touring (or touring) pros, over time, a new and legitimate way to have additional income beyond occasionally cashing.

cwphish
Mar 17 2006, 10:10 AM
Who really wants to take lessons from the pro who doesn't cash?

terrycalhoun
Mar 17 2006, 10:34 AM
Who really wants to take lessons from the pro who doesn't cash?



As a constituent base, that would be everyone who does not yet engage in competition - the overwhelming majority of disc golfers.

Visit any college campus. You will find star researchers who are abyssmal teachers. There's no correlation between top skills at play and top teaching abilities.

Plus, where do you think all of those ball and stick golf teaching pros come from? The top ranks of the PDGA? Nope.

Personally, I know that I have the strength to throw 400+' instead of my current max, 320' - and I would pay big bucks to anyone who can get me to 400', no matter how much cash they'd ever have won.

ck34
Mar 17 2006, 10:34 AM
...or the basketball coach who can't dunk, or the skating coach who can't do a triple axel, or the soccer coach who can't do a bicycle kick, or...

AviarX
Mar 17 2006, 10:47 AM
you might want to contact Blake T. i bet he could use the money :D

chappyfade
Mar 17 2006, 11:39 AM
Charley Lau was one of the best hitting coaches of all time, he coached George Brett to greatness. But Charlie Lau himself hit only .255 as a part-time major leaguer. Tommy Lasorda spent parts of 3 years in the majors as a relief pitcher, never won a game, and has a career 6.15 ERA. Tony LaRussa hit .199 as a backup 2nd baseman in his career. I think those guys have proven they can teach. Blake T is a good example of someone's whose playing rating is far lower than his understanding of how to throw a disc. Just read his website, and you can't help but improve a bit.

Chap

neonnoodle
Mar 17 2006, 12:06 PM
Teaching is an art form, very few are really good at it, though many make claim to it.

The real challenge is that even fewer folks are capable of learning these days. I suppose it has to do with our current "Mr. Know-It-All" cultural mentality.

Who can tell who would be a good teacher or instructor?

One way to find out is ask a few players some questions and see how they react and what they offer as answers. Beware of ones that talk too much and don't ask questions of you, or want to watch what you do. If they just seem to like the sound of their own voice then you have a good indication that they stink as a teacher.

Mar 17 2006, 01:01 PM
Nick, what do you mean by be aware of those that want to watch what you do?

I have found that most players when asking for advice seem to think they are doing everything correct and that it is just not working. You can tell them "try this or try that" but it does no good when they tell you they are doing all those things and they dont work. Alot of the time when you actually see the person throw it becomes obvious that they are not doing what they say they are.

Now, I may or may not be a good teacher (i am certainly not that great of a player despite my 9 years of trying :( :D) but most players around here who are serious about getting better come to me, or are told to come to me by others, to work on their game. I want to see what they are doing before leading them on a wild goose chase to find some flaw that they can't see but is obvious when you see them throw.

Real world example:

I had a new player come to me for advice in a private message. He claimed that he had gone to DiscGolfreview.com and was following everything he read.

I ran through some of the basics for him and he said he was doing all that and still couldnt get the disc to go more then 200ft and it always turned over. When i asked what discs he was using he said a champ Beast was his goto but that he turned all his discs over, including his champ monster....hmmmm

I told him I would meet him up at the course the next day and see what the deal was. (becasue he is obviously not correctly following the advice he is getting online)

He was doing almost EVERYTHING wrong. First he thought he was doing an x-step....he wasn't .....he thought his reach back resembled that of Barry....he had NO reachback at all and threw straight from the chest......he thought he was releasing flat....he was releasing in a really awkward anyhyzer that would result in a roller with just about any disc thrown. In his defense i truly beleive he felt like he was doing all these things he said properly.

I helped him with all the basics in person and now, only a couple months later and with just talking him through some course maintenance and putting issues occasionally, he can easily throw over 300 ft and is becoming pretty accurate in that range. He has shaved about 15 strokes (literally) off his game and is a really good putter.

I attribute most of that to the time he put into practice but would like to think that I was able to get him over that begginer hump and set him on the right track. I don't think I could have done that without seeing for myself what he was doing.

bruce_brakel
Mar 17 2006, 05:25 PM
The real challenge is that even fewer folks are capable of learning these days. I suppose it has to do with our current "Mr. Know-It-All" cultural mentality.

I think this is what Lao Tsu meant when he said, "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear."

neonnoodle
Mar 17 2006, 06:34 PM
Hi Scott,

First off, you gotta love to teach to do it well. I try to keep centered a wise saying I heard from a fine Jamaican friend I was giving a ride home to one night after doubles who summed the whole ball of wax up with this, �We were put here to help one another.�

Not sure what that had to do with this topic, but it always crosses my mind.


Nick, what do you mean by be aware of those that want to watch what you do?



I think a good disc golf instructor would be less interested in lecturing technique and how he does it, than in observing the student and relating all instruction towards making an impact there. Rarely if ever is a player, even a beginner ever able to completely overcome tendencies. By �watching what you do� I mean actually observing you while you play. Watching folks during practice can be misleading.

I can�t help but watch other players during play and usually formulate one area that �if they ask how I think they could improve� I will have an answer for them after the round. I never give advice during a round, it only ends up causing more harm than help; it is also, in my opinion, discourteous. I pick one and only one thing that I think can have the greatest immediate positive impact and frame it with two things the player already shows promise in; that way they are more likely to internalize it. (Besides, overload and glazed eyes are not going to be helpful.)

More than likely you are going to be asking them to do something they are physically unfamiliar with. As you state, they �think� that they are doing it �right�. Your challenge is to frame it in such a way that they can physically �feel� the difference and instill confidence that if they can make that discomfort feel comfortable that they will get the result they desire, and conversely that if they stay with what is comfortable that they can never rationally expect a different result. (Not and easy task, that�s why sticking to only one thing at a time is so important.)

Your example of the fellow seeking online help is as clear an example of why I never give any credence to online or written advice. I respect Dave Dunipace, Carlton Howard and other writers implicitly, but that is due to face to face experience. I never read what they say on here or in DGWN because how could they know anything about my game? Everyone�s game is nearly completely unique. That�s why players seeking help would do better with you or I in person, even though our knowledge might not be as good as Dave or Carlton, because we can give them individual and �direct� attention. And that is what is needed (as your example illustrates clearly.

Now, I�m not going to say that articles and posts are not without value, that would not be credible, particularly as concerns the mental side of golf. But it simply can�t compete with the value of direct observation and individual feedback.

I�m not claiming to be a great instructor or teacher, these are just things I�ve found to be true in my experience both as a teacher and as a student.

Last thing, NEVER offer advice or instruction unless invited to. A. It will fall on deaf ears. B. It might offend and make the person even more entrenched. Wait for them to come to you. If and when they do your instruction will be infinitely more helpful.

And after all, isn�t that why we were put here, to help one another?

Regards,
Nick

PS: I think you get all of this.

Mar 17 2006, 09:52 PM
By �watching what you do� I mean actually observing you while you play. Watching folks during practice can be misleading.




Cool. I gotcha now. I totally took that the other way which is why I had to ask what you meant. I think i am pretty much in agreement with everything you said. Thanks for answering. :)

terrycalhoun
Mar 17 2006, 11:04 PM
This is what DISCussion should be all about, d'oh!

neonnoodle
Mar 19 2006, 12:06 AM
Scott and I see eye to eye on most everything...

hm! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :D