What I would like to know is, Are there any rules regarding the mounting of baskets, specificly the distance between the bottom of the basket and the ground? I ask this because the bottom of the basket of Hole #24 at willow metro park is close to 4 feet off the ground! Just curious.
thanks Ken #26479

What I would like to know is, Are there any rules regarding the mounting of baskets, specificly the distance between the bottom of the basket and the ground? I ask this because the bottom of the basket of Hole #24 at willow metro park is close to 4 feet off the ground! Just curious.
thanks Ken #26479



76 to 89cm from the ground to the top of the tray. This is from PDGA tech standards.

What I would like to know is, Are there any rules regarding the mounting of baskets, specificly the distance between the bottom of the basket and the ground? I ask this because the bottom of the basket of Hole #24 at willow metro park is close to 4 feet off the ground! Just curious.
thanks Ken #26479



76 to 89cm from the ground to the top of the tray. This is from PDGA tech standards.

I think it is 2.54 centimeters per inch, 30 to 36 inches is close.

What I would like to know is, Are there any rules regarding the mounting of baskets, specificly the distance between the bottom of the basket and the ground? I ask this because the bottom of the basket of Hole #24 at willow metro park is close to 4 feet off the ground! Just curious.
thanks Ken #26479



76 to 89cm from the ground to the top of the tray. This is from PDGA tech standards.




That answer is a bit misleading.

That height requirement of 76-89cm is for the manufacturers technical standards. There is no document stating that a basket must be installed at that height to be legal.

Correct. Ideally, install most of them so the top of the basket is 30-35 inches above the ground. However, some of us have purposely installed no more than one or two of them on an 18-hole course a bit higher up to provide variety and challenge to a course.

this basket was installed last minute, the night before a big tourny. The original basket had been stolen and was mounted like all the rest prior. I really just wanted to make sure it was legal to be mounted in this manner. The height of the basket is tough considering there is a 8 foot drop off to an OB creek 6 feet to the right of the basket!

The measurement is an average of four points around the pole at essentially the width of the basket from the pole (although that isn't specified). So unless the cliff drops off less than a foot from the pole, you're OK.

NO, the drop off just adds to the toughness. The pole the basket sits on is at least 4 feet tall, the bottom of the basket sits 4 feet above flat ground.

Chuck, et al,

I've been playing for near 20 years, and one of the most interesting and fun holes I have ever played was at the John's Island course near Charleston, SC.

I can't remember the hole #, but on the back nine, there is a hole around 600' long and the basket is installed at ground level. You can actually roll the disc into the basket. During the Charleston t'ment (04, I think), I scored the first-ever deuce on the hole after my trusty forehand roller curled in from about 250' :o

Later that day, Rene Granados scored the second deuce on the hole when his approach slid into the basket.

I'm nothing if not a traditionalist when it come to DG, but I found this method of installing this ground basket to really add an interesting angle.

All of that to ask this question: Does this type of design violate the PDGA standards or rules in any way? I wouldn't want to play a whole course of ground baskets, but having one out of 18 holes is very cool.

TIA,
LW

Was it a PDGA approved basket installed this way?

Yes, it was a regular basket.

The top of the basket was just slightly below grade, which made the top of the chain ring only about 2 feet off the ground.

Even short putts were very interesting because of the downward trajectory. Like I said, I wouldn't want to play 18 of these, but it did make for a very interesting change of pace.

LW

No disrespect to you, but that just sounds silly to me. It could also be a maintenance problem as over time, the hole in the ground will fill with silt. Addtionally, if you are close to sea level, the hole could fill with water during the rainy season.

It is silly. When I first saw it, I thought it was gimmicky. Turns out, it was fun---sometimes even funny---to play.

It's not just that the basket rim is an inch or two above ground level---it is in a bowl, perhaps 40' across, so the ground slopes slightly toward the basket from all directions.

So not only could the basket fill with water but, with sufficient rain, it would seem the area all around it will fill. On the other hand, this is a private course, so maintenance is whatever they're willing to undertake.

From a fun standpoint I can see it. However, if I'm wearing my PDGA Course Committee hat, I would say 'no' except for maybe an X-tier event. But it's not 'no' by much. I'd be inclined to accept a PDGA approved basket that was sitting with its bottom on the ground, just not partly or completely IN the ground. The distinction is that our sport, as currently defined, requires a disc to enter the basket thru the air, not slide or roll into the basket. Even though it's unconventional, a basket resting on the ground would still require the disc to be thrown thru the air to hole out. So, I would have no problem seeing one of these on a course for a B or C tier. I remember playing a tournament where the bolt broke on a portable just before the event started and we played that hole with the basket on the ground. I don't know about having a basket on the ground at an A-tier or higher but I'll wait until that request arises.

That clarifies things a bit. I had envisioned a hole in the ground equal in diameter to the lower entrapment section and the basket situate in that hole, sort of like John Lennon's sunken bed in the movie "Help".

Yes, it was a regular basket.

The top of the basket was just slightly below grade, which made the top of the chain ring only about 2 feet off the ground.

Even short putts were very interesting because of the downward trajectory. Like I said, I wouldn't want to play 18 of these, but it did make for a very interesting change of pace.

LW



i have always thought about that basket height as an interesting experiment. kneeling or sitting might be a good way to putt. in a simple sense (perhaps too simple?) it would make it more 'golf-like', though copying the ball-golf model is usually something i recoil against....

flooding concerns would need to be addressed however...

what about a basket that is suspended in the air, not pinned into the ground but hanging from a tree so that it swings and spins?

We had one at Nockamixon that was approved for play at the Pro Worlds this year. Our preference would be for the basket to be temporarily secured with a chain or cable from the ground up to the bottom of the basket to reduce movement for sanctioned events. It doesn't seem like the top players complained at Worlds or at the Cross Canyon A-tier in Florida which has had a suspended basket on the Gran Canyon course for several years.

Do those baskets ever start to sway in the wind? I've never putted at a moving target.

I doubt that I would put that in one of my designs, but as long as it's secured in the manner Chuck described, it sounds cool. I don't think it should be moving. Reminds me too much of the shooting gallery at the County fair.

I don't understand why the basket sunk in the ground or the swinging basket need special approval to be used in a PDGA event. Point me to the rule or standard that these baskets don't comply with. How are these examples any different from exageratedly high baskets such as the TWO (holes 9 and 10) at Winthrop Gold that are used for USDGC?

Provided the catching area still meets with PDGA tech standards, why does the height of the basket matter? Why does the basket have to be secured if it's a hanging basket? Are there really rules about this beyond the technical production standards, which IMO, don't extend to actual installation?

Seems to me it should be the course designer/owner/TD's perogative how to set up the course for play. If he/she wants a raised/lowered/hanging basket on his/her course for their PDGA sanctioned event, so be it. To me it's no different than setting OB areas or mandatories...it's part of the design of the course. Everyone's playing the same course, are they not?

--Josh

from someone who lives in Charleston and plays Trophy Lakes regularly.... The cage of the basket as it sits now is about 2 inches above the ground, so rollers could not "theoretically " go in, but I have seen putts bounce off the ground and go in, so putts do have to go through the air to go in. We have a C tier event in June and there has been discussion about the basket... ie digging it out so the basket is flush with the ground or leaving it as is, or hanging it from a tree (which was the original set up I've been told). We had a B tier event in December which Harold Duvall was TD and the basket was as is and I'm not aware of any complaints...Barry Schultz did shoot the course record if I'm not mistaken.

I don't think there are such requirements, except maybe in the tournament agreement. It's mostly a matter of personal preference or taste. Whether such course elements are acceptable or not (i.e. good taste or bad taste) will be determined over time by seeing how much play the course receives, and perhaps a proper course evaluation.

The question is whether the "as manufactured" specs for approved PDGA baskets also becomes the "as installed" standards by default (since there aren't any specifically written). For example, approved discs cannot have any material post production modifications per the rules. Does that extend to baskets by default? All currently approved PDGA baskets meet the standard when mounted as supplied from the ground up such that the top of the basket ends up between 30-35 inches above grade.

So, the PDGA Competition Director could (and does) fall back on the manufacturing standards for approved baskets and requires that any deviation in height or mounting method (suspended) be approved. It would be worthwhile to have a Rules Q&A that eliminates the need to get approval for hanging baskets mounted at the correct basket height since this has never been rejected for sanctioning to my knowledge.

Mounting baskets at heights other than the 30-35 inch range occurs all over the country if measurements were actually taken. Many end up that way inadvertently when they were installed wrong or the ground has heaved or settled. Others have been specifically mounted outside the range, typically upward on stumps or small mounds.

The USDGC basket actually is mounted according to manufacturing standards because Harold made sure the special platform extends out from the basket cylinder far enough that if you take measurements per the standard, the height above the platform is still within 30-35 inches when measured straight down from the edge of the basket.

We've discussed in the design groups whether allowing a few baskets out of 18 at heights above or below standard would still fall in the realm of "good" design. Seems like about half the designers are OK with that including myself.

I'm more concerned about developing a standard for the height of the deflection zone above the basket which is not specified. Seems like that is really our target area for the sport (like the 'hole' in ball golf) and should be the first thing specified. What most don't realize is that if you remove the chain assembly from an approved basket, it's still approved. There's no spec for having a chain assembly or any type of deflection device above the basket. The chain assembly is essentialy an accessory to the approved basket, kind of like fancy wheel covers or spoiler on a car.

The primary tech specs pertain to the basket itself. I believe you would hear vast whining if the chain assemblies were removed from the baskets on some or all baskets before an A-tier. Anyone have the guts to do it? According to our specs, no permission is required from the Competition Director since the baskets are still PDGA approved. However, since we want all of the baskets to be the same on a course at an A-tier, you would certainly want to remove the chain assemblies from all baskets for uniformity per tour guidelines :DThink that event might finally trigger a tech spec change?

I will be fixing this basket at Trophy Lakes by digging out underneath so there is no dispute of its legality. The ground will be flush (slight gap) so sliders and rollers will find their way in this June (10, 11th), if properly executed.

I still show Walt Haney with the course record of 50 because we had one additional par 4 when he did it. I guess they can share it.

I don't believe that's good enough. If the basket is in a dip so that sliders just barely making it over the edge do not hole out and slide under the basket, that would be OK. However, it would be OK if the slider or roller comes in hot enough that it flies across a foot or two of air before entering the basket. So, I'm suggesting that a gap of about 2 feet from the regular ground level to the nubs of the basket all the way around it would be cool. The ground would slope down from where the hole starts and angle down to the bottom rim of the basket all the way around it. It's certainly unconventional but would be more in keeping with the essence of our current game which is for the disc to fly thru the air into the basket. I think our Competition Director might be checking out this thread and may comment.

"if you take measurements per the standard, the height above the platform is still within 30-35 inches when measured straight down from the edge of the basket."

The basket meets this standard.

"a gap of about 2 feet" Are rules created in the PDGA discussion board now?

If the PDGA wishes to create rules that would alter basket mounting options than they should do so officially.

This basket received sanctioning for a C, and 2 B teir PDGA events.

The maintenance of this is a problem but it is one that I can live with because having 18 holes all the same is not fun disc golf for me. I didn't design this hole but it is a great golf hole.

For the love of the game. Bless you all.

I would go along with whatever type of installation the TD/course owner thinks is appropriate with only 2 reservations.

1) The putt must be fair and any directional obstacle must be recognisable from the approach distance.
2) The disc is easily retrievable from the target after the putt is made.

It would be proper to note in the flyer that the targets used may not be of "standard" configuration if more than a few of them are irregular. It needs to be clear to the traveling PDGA player as well as the locals.

I'm just against players finding out that things are not standard after they are committed to the event. As long as the players know what to expect, they will vote with their entry fees.

I don't see this installation having any more dramatic effect on scores than pole holes of poper height mounted near severe drops or OB. In fact, I think this sounds like a relly cool type of hole, I just need to figure out how to keep it from filling with water or debris.

This basket received sanctioning for a C, and 2 B teir PDGA events.




If the Competition Director approves it, then that's fine whether I disagree or not. I'm just an advisor to the Competition Director as head of the PDGA Course Design Committee. Sanctioning alone doesn't mean permission, if the Tour Director doesn't know there's a non-standard installation. And just because it's been done before isn't sufficient, especially if the Competition Director never approved any of the events.

Here's the wording from the spec pertaining to this issue: "Over slope, height compliance is determined by averaging the distance to the ground directly below the top edge of the rim at four equidistant points around the basket." How far from the pole the four points must be measured is not specified. That's why the Competition Director should be consulted. I gave what I believe is a reasonable option that's still unconventional but doesn't violate the intrinsic nature of the game which is for the disc to enter the basket by air and not slide in like a ball golf putt.

Someone up thread said that the basket was in a bowl 40 feet across. If that's the case, then the distance between the edge of the bowl to the lower entrapment device is more like 38 feet, so "increasing" it to 2 feet doesn't make sense. That sounds fine to me. But from the conversation here it sounds like 40' is actually 40" across if there's a possibility that a disc could slide into it.

Any possibility of posting a picture or veriifying the width of the bowl?

In the end, this is just another detail that our young sport will need to address and standardize in the next 10 to 200 years, just like our club-and-ball counterpart.

Here's my understanding of the current basket installation in the ground and my proposal. Just digging out a cylinder of dirt with the current installation about 2' under the basket with just a slightly bigger diameter than the basket to meet the spec where the basket lip is 30"-35" above the dirt at the bottom of the pit seems out of line. Where do you stop? If that's OK, you could then argue that the basket could be slipped down into a vertical sewer pipe as long as the basket rim was 30"-35" above the bottom of the dark abyss in the bottom of the pipe.

http://publish.hometown.aol.com/ck34/images/baskets%20at%20grade%20level.jpg

I'm suggesting that what I've proposed is still unconventional and might make the purists cringe. However, at least the disc will be flying thru the air for the last milliseconds as it enters the basket. It still allows the creative skipper, slider or roller to potentially hole out if it comes at the basket with speeds more like a conventional putt with the risk of moving past the basket some distance if it misses.

Interesting. Combine this with and open lid and I think you have got something intriguing here.

what about a basket that is suspended in the air, not pinned into the ground but hanging from a tree so that it swings and spins?



We have a course in NC with 15 of 18 baskets swinging. During one of the summer doubles tours the wind was blowing and guy in my group went to stop the basket from movin, when i stopped him and explained that the purpose of the basket hanging was for it tomove he was horrified.

I'm just not diggin' this at all. However, to each their own.

I'd probably be horrified too. You may as well have toy windmills stationed around the baskets. I feel that these are things that should more properly be used in putt putt or wacky golf.

what about a basket that is suspended in the air, not pinned into the ground but hanging from a tree so that it swings and spins?



That would be cool !!!! A giant swivel so the basket would spin like a fishing lure !!!!! :D

I would go along with whatever type of installation the TD/course owner thinks is appropriate with only 2 reservations.

1) The putt must be fair and any directional obstacle must be recognisable from the approach distance.
2) The disc is easily retrievable from the target after the putt is made.

It would be proper to note in the flyer that the targets used may not be of "standard" configuration if more than a few of them are irregular. It needs to be clear to the traveling PDGA player as well as the locals.

I'm just against players finding out that things are not standard after they are committed to the event. As long as the players know what to expect, they will vote with their entry fees.

I don't see this installation having any more dramatic effect on scores than pole holes of poper height mounted near severe drops or OB. In fact, I think this sounds like a relly cool type of hole, I just need to figure out how to keep it from filling with water or debris.


This is why i started this thread, I didnt want to pay to play in a sanctioned tourny and find out later that the basket was illegal. Not that the pdga would penalize the players for this?

I just saw this on Greg Hosfeld's blog (http://www.onegranddiscgolftour.com/). Apparently this is hole#13 at Trophy Lakes in Charleston, SC.

http://www.onegranddiscgolftour.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/trophy-lakes-sunken-poho2.jpg

I've played baskets like this, it's obviously not the "right" way to do it, but fun for sure. These shots are easier when putting from your knees.

Basket Positions NOT allowed (http://api.ning.com/files/WGP5*zqC9vCk0an9QKAnUodRYo5E*Nsq7dYyogjDOnlBpFYLLT Q6nLKeiiHMhax5RQ6EVA27qvDLZODPJTTLy0p7qh9fRhgb/BasketPlacementsNOTAllowed.jpg )

Basket Positions Allowed (http://api.ning.com/files/WGP5*zqC9vAAslDGy79U2LdC7GNKJSlm535*heyBVwzEwM2r1F utNXsIy4K7AXMxfp7U*B1aXcs4HJ8IZ2i*-wlxDNYznATS/BasketPlacementsAllowed.jpg)

So I guess that means that this is an illegal basket installation. :D
http://hyzercreek.com/16.jpg

so what is the ruling on mounted targets that were before considered fine before there was a definite ruling on the matter. do you grandfather these courses and placements in, or require those courses that were designed and made before there was a clear ruling on this matter, to change and replace their basket positions?

from my understanding, the manufacturing specs recommended that they be mounted and made so that they sat a certain height off the ground, but there werent specific pdga rules that addressed it until recently.

Even then, if a course does not meet the spec, what happens? Nothing.

Bill, what would be illegal about the basket in the creek, as long as it was in the right height range?

Courses and basket positions have been changed to meet specs for major events but not for lower tiers that I'm aware of.

I'm not saying I agree with the Allowed/Not Allowed examples, just that this is how you would interpret our existing target spec for manufacturers if it were followed. As you can see from the diagrams, the spec doesn't make sense from the standpoint that two almost identical configurations can be good or not. The buried target shown earlier in the thread would be "good" as long as the dirt is dug away below the basket far enough to meet the "spec height" requirement.

Harold took care to make the platforms wider than the basket diameter at the USDGC so the elevated Winthrop targets are legit based on current specs. But if he didn't make the platforms wider than the basket diameter, they would not meet the spec. Our Course Committee is looking into tweaking this height spec for recommended (not required) installation options.

I guess the only thing illegal about that position is that the basket is in OB.

So I guess that means that this is an illegal basket installation. :D



Don't know if it's illegal, but it sure is one of the hokiest and lamest things I've seen in course design. How ridiculous to have to lay up from 20 feet to assure yourself a tap-in, because if you miss the putt you take a penalty stroke.

its an interesting situation though. would the basket be considered 'in bounds'? so if i was to go for the putt and bang it off the basket, do i take it at the edge where it entered the creek, or take it at the rim of the basket where it touched. what happens if my disc lands on top of the basket. i am supposed to mark it directly below the basket, which in this case is all water and OB, whats the call?

basically, can a basket be out of bounds?

The target space itself can be inbounds just like a bridge can be inbounds over an OB creek. The TD would have to declare whether landing on top of the basket (DROT) gets a penalty or not. Default would seem to be no penalty. My preference for this type of setup would be to make the creek casual and have a drop zone maybe 25 feet away where you have to take your next throw with no penalty other than the longer putt and the risk of going in the drink again with a miss.

Professional disc golf and recreational disc golf courses can be different. I don't have a problem with just about any basket location for recreational courses. The only time I see any problems is for tournament or professional disc golf. That being said, I have seen way too many basket positions at World's, that IMO don't belong in a professional tournament. Swinging baskets and baskets in trees come to mind. Yet, these types of positions seem fine to me for recreational disc golf. I think fun is the primary objective in recreational disc golf. I think fair competition is the primary objective in tournament play at the higher levels.

If baskets close to trees are not allowed then we should also change the rule to mark the lie where our disc first hits a tree or object and not where it ends up. All those hole outs and aces on ricochets would be invalid. If we allow ricochets like we do now, then why does it matter how close the ricochet might occur as long as the basket is accessible from all sides?

its an interesting situation though. would the basket be considered 'in bounds'? so if i was to go for the putt and bang it off the basket, do i take it at the edge where it entered the creek, or take it at the rim of the basket where it touched. what happens if my disc lands on top of the basket. i am supposed to mark it directly below the basket, which in this case is all water and OB, whats the call?

basically, can a basket be out of bounds?



the way the locals play that hole:

scenario 1: play from last spot inbounds at creek's edge with penalty.

scenario 2: DROT gets marked OB. go back to last spot inbounds with penalty.

Chuck,
How did you get from this:
_____________________________________________

Correct. Ideally, install most of them so the top of the basket is 30-35 inches above the ground. However, some of us have purposely installed no more than one or two of them on an 18-hole course a bit higher up to provide variety and challenge to a course.

______________________________________________

To this??




Basket Positions NOT allowed (http://api.ning.com/files/WGP5*zqC9vCk0an9QKAnUodRYo5E*Nsq7dYyogjDOnlBpFYLLT Q6nLKeiiHMhax5RQ6EVA27qvDLZODPJTTLy0p7qh9fRhgb/BasketPlacementsNOTAllowed.jpg )

Basket Positions Allowed (http://api.ning.com/files/WGP5*zqC9vAAslDGy79U2LdC7GNKJSlm535*heyBVwzEwM2r1F utNXsIy4K7AXMxfp7U*B1aXcs4HJ8IZ2i*-wlxDNYznATS/BasketPlacementsAllowed.jpg)



I B Conflicted.

Ron Pittman

The specs technically describe how the targets should be manufactured but not necessarily installed. If you interpret the specs as also indicating the only acceptable way to install them, then you get the two sets of diagrams I drew. However, if you interpret the specs as strictly the way targets should be manufactured, then how they get installed has more flexibility, or appropriate guidelines need to be defined by the Course Committee. That is something we're working on.

Chuck, thanks for the reply.

Sorta' what I thought you would say, but your drawings and their labels seemed quite definitive. (or is it more accurate to say self-revealing or even prophetic ?) :D

It does seem that targets with buried-type installs may need some clarification. I'm good with that.

To me, the underlying problem with a rules change (or did you say "guidlines"?) concering elevated targets is that the difference between a target 6' off the ground----------- and a target 6' off the ground with some cute little steps or berm built just for measuring purposes is nil. And shall we say a guidline might be just as artificial?

Sounds like technical wording games to me.

Unless convinced otherwise ----- my interest is in seeing the absence of an install height in the rules etc being clarified as just that ---- not a rule.

BTW, my experience with an elevated target is as a designer. Installed one target about 42' higher than typical on flat level ground. Got a love/hate response. We have since layed a step-like thingy around it and most all complaints have stopped. Not sure why, but it has been interesting to follow.

Thanks,
Ron Pittman

There are many "normal" pin placements on mounds, near ledges, on steeper hillsides and even having to putt from your knees, where the basket is higher than your stance. In which case, restricting basket height to an official range seems unnecessary and prevents designers not blessed with these terrain options from creating challenging pin placements. The watchword for guidelines is moderation. Don't place every pin on a precarious mound, in trees or on a steep slope, and try to vary the style when you do more than one.

Winthrop primarily has five "special" pin placements with back-to-back raised platforms, the sandbox by the lake, and holes 11 and 18 on steeper hillsides. If you're below the hole 18 basket, the putt wouldn't be much different than if the basket were suspended higher on a pole on lesser sloped ground (other than fewer people might be watching).

So I guess that means that this is an illegal basket installation. :D



Don't know if it's illegal, but it sure is one of the hokiest and lamest things I've seen in course design. How ridiculous to have to lay up from 20 feet to assure yourself a tap-in, because if you miss the putt you take a penalty stroke.




That's exactly the point, and why I think it's a great hole location. The solution is make the 20ft putt. I don't think this is any different from the many baskets (even one mentioned in this thread) that have a creek a few feet beyond the basket. At 20ft, you could 'go for it', miss, and end up in the creek, or layup if you have no putting confidence (read: skills). Exactly the same concept.

Or what about a basket that is on the edge of a slope, such that a missed 20 footer might end up rolling 60 ft down the hill. Would you lay up or go for it?

Also, on the hole in question, sometimes long putts that miss land on the other side of the creek, of course no penalty. I've done that a lot.

So I guess that means that this is an illegal basket installation. :D



Don't know if it's illegal, but it sure is one of the hokiest and lamest things I've seen in course design. How ridiculous to have to lay up from 20 feet to assure yourself a tap-in, because if you miss the putt you take a penalty stroke.



I submit that the above remark is not an unbiased opinion of the mounting of the basket, but is biased by a personal grudge against the owner and designer of the course. It is hole 16 at Hyzer Creek, NY, which has been recently ranked the 34th best disc golf course in the world. .

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/topcourses_2008.php

The disciplinary list for Hyzer Creek explains the situation:

http://www.hyzercreek.com/disciplinarylist.htm

So I guess that means that this is an illegal basket installation. :D



Don't know if it's illegal, but it sure is one of the hokiest and lamest things I've seen in course design. How ridiculous to have to lay up from 20 feet to assure yourself a tap-in, because if you miss the putt you take a penalty stroke.



I submit that the above remark is not an unbiased opinion of the mounting of the basket, but is biased by a personal grudge against the owner and designer of the course. It is hole 16 at Hyzer Creek, NY, which has been recently ranked the 34th best disc golf course in the world. .

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/topcourses_2008.php

The disciplinary list for Hyzer Creek explains the situation:

http://www.hyzercreek.com/disciplinarylist.htm



imagine where it would rank if you didnt have that pin location in the water.... :D :D

Basket Positions NOT allowed (http://api.ning.com/files/WGP5*zqC9vCk0an9QKAnUodRYo5E*Nsq7dYyogjDOnlBpFYLLT Q6nLKeiiHMhax5RQ6EVA27qvDLZODPJTTLy0p7qh9fRhgb/BasketPlacementsNOTAllowed.jpg )

Basket Positions Allowed (http://api.ning.com/files/WGP5*zqC9vAAslDGy79U2LdC7GNKJSlm535*heyBVwzEwM2r1F utNXsIy4K7AXMxfp7U*B1aXcs4HJ8IZ2i*-wlxDNYznATS/BasketPlacementsAllowed.jpg)



Chuck, where can we find this "rule"? Is it an actual PDGA rule, or something from your course designers group?

It's right in the specs: Technical Standards (http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PDGATechStandards_08.pdf)
See section (II) (B)

as confusing as this is made out to be, its not a rule. its a tech standard for manufacturers. but i have yet to be pointed to where its actually a pdga rule for courses or tournaments or tournament play. its a guideline to make baskets, but not to install baskets. am i wrong? there is really no rule that addresses this, just a tech standard for people who manufacture baskets. ???

Up until the new guidelines approved by the Board last week, the Tech Standards have covered both manufacturing and appropriate installation of targets.

so are you saying that they now do not cover both, or now there is a rule?

I'm saying the new specs just approved decoupled the manufacturing side from the installation side. But new installation standards have yet to be written by the PDGA Course group. So the old tech guidelines stand in their place for the moment. But as Dave pointed out earlier, what you do for a recreational installation may be more creative shall we say than what's considered appropriate for a major event.

So you are saying that any tounament run at a course that has baskets installed - maybe for years- that do not meet these "rules" will not be legal? Will not be sanctioned? Who will measure ALL of the existing baskets? What will be the recourse for a player that goes to a tournament that has these illegally installed baskets? Will they be able to get a refund on the day of an A-tier if they find a basket that's 1 inch out of complience? Will every TD need to go to the course and rip out and reinstall properly any basket that doesn't meet your standard? Or will every TD need to ask for permission from the compition director to use said baskets? What will the fine be for using these improper baskets? Will there be any "grandfathering" any/all baskets that don't meet your standard? Who can anyone officially complain to/ what will be done if "forced" to play in a PDGA tournament that has "illegally" installed baskets?

You're asking questions that don't have official answers. The only enforcement that has been in place for several years now is that targets used in majors will have dual chain deflectors as written in the contract the hosts sign with the PDGA. Beyond that, everything has been guidelines that haven't been formally enforced other than what TDs do to try and keep the quality of portables decent and perhaps excluding some homemade ones.

Regardless, guidelines have to come before enforcement. So we're stepping in the direction to improve things in higher tier events and eventually hoping it trickles down.