I just discovered that the PGA has reversed its decision on allowing range finders (they now allow them as a Local Rule... similar to PDGA allowing the TD to stipulate course specific rules).

Apparently, they consider range finders aiding in speed of play (and their tournament tests have supported this).

Quote from USGA site:

A noteworthy change is the governing bodies� sanction of the use of distance measuring devices, including GPS-based systems and laser rangefinders.* New Decision 14-3/0.5 allows a Committee to permit the use of distance-measuring devices by Local Rule. This applies to devices that measure distance only, not any other conditions that might affect a player�s play (e.g., wind or gradient). In the absence of such a Local Rule, the use of a distance-measuring device remains contrary to the Rules.

link: http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/changes_rules2006.html

I think this is interesting, and would like to see PDGA do the same.

A few reasons off the top of my head:
1. Many courses, especially those modified for tournament play, lack accurate tee signs.
2. Many players travel to tournaments and thus play courses which they are not familair with.
3. There is a big difference between subtle distances in our sport (for instance: disc used for 290 feet versus 320 feet). Range finders would speed up decision process for many players (fairway and tees both).

I'd like us members to generate some discussion on this for the consideration of the rules committee.

TIA!

A case could be made that players might actually play worse with rangefinders. Knowing the distance, assuming you got a correct reading off of something near where you're aiming, might actually cause you to throw less accurately than using your judgment.

The reasons cited in past discussions that were against rangefinders:
1) Cost/fairness: They are still expensive enough to get a good one ($150+), that it would be an unfair economic burden with players pressured to have them.
2) Slowing play: Players taking more time to get good readings, especially on open courses. Other players loaning them back and forth from those who have them since not all will have them.
3) Weight/space: Something else players would feel compelled to carry in their bag.

Personally, I'm not sure it will make much difference either way. But these are some of the problems to consider.

Rick, I always thought that judging distances was part of the skill involved in disc golf. I personally would not like see range finders as part of the game.

I do agree that some TDs need to do a better job posting accurate hole lengths. I agree that's a separate issue than players using them. However, in many cases even the TDs can't/won't afford to buy rangefinders to do the measurements.

I agree completely, Lou.

A player cannot always blindly accept the posted distance for any particular hole. Judging the distance (along with flight route, wind direction, etc.) is a part of the skill required to complete a hole.

Distance-measuring devices should be considered illegal during a sanctioned round as they can aid only the players who use them.

Not everyone can get their hands on {insert from list below} either, does that mean I can't use mine ? :D :D

an '01 CE ROC
a golf cart
a revolution bag

Only those that use them can benefit from:
golf umbrellas
water socks
pull carts
plenty of water
back-up discs
disc retrievers

All of these represent competitive advantages if needed and used.

How many players do you know that can throw exactly 330' as opposed to throwing "just past that tree" ?
Is one ability more skillful than the other ?

I'm guessing most players will return them to the store from which they bought them just as soon as their first drive ends up to be only 330' and not the 400' to 450' they've been telling everyone. :p

I just discovered that the PGA has reversed its decision on allowing range finders (they now allow them as a Local Rule... similar to PDGA allowing the TD to stipulate course specific rules).

Apparently, they consider range finders aiding in speed of play (and their tournament tests have supported this).

Quote from USGA site:

A noteworthy change is the governing bodies� sanction of the use of distance measuring devices, including GPS-based systems and laser rangefinders.* New Decision 14-3/0.5 allows a Committee to permit the use of distance-measuring devices by Local Rule. This applies to devices that measure distance only, not any other conditions that might affect a player�s play (e.g., wind or gradient). In the absence of such a Local Rule, the use of a distance-measuring device remains contrary to the Rules.

link: http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/changes_rules2006.html

I think this is interesting, and would like to see PDGA do the same.

A few reasons off the top of my head:
1. Many courses, especially those modified for tournament play, lack accurate tee signs.
2. Many players travel to tournaments and thus play courses which they are not familair with.
3. There is a big difference between subtle distances in our sport (for instance: disc used for 290 feet versus 320 feet). Range finders would speed up decision process for many players (fairway and tees both).

I'd like us members to generate some discussion on this for the consideration of the rules committee.

TIA!



I see no issue with it whatsoever. I'm all for speed of play and quick disc recovery !!!!

I'm guessing most players will return them to the store from which they bought them just as soon as their first drive ends up to be only 330' and not the 400' to 450' they've been telling everyone. :p




HA HA HA!

It would be fun to disprove all these players who tell me they can throw over 400ft.

Yet when they see me park our 412ft position (wheel and tape measured zero elevation change) they are amazed how far I can throw. :DOf course to their benefit the tee sign says the pin placement is 520ft. They just have no concept of how far 400ft really is.

A case could be made that players might actually play worse with rangefinders. Knowing the distance, assuming you got a correct reading off of something near where you're aiming, might actually cause you to throw less accurately than using your judgment.

The reasons cited in past discussions that were against rangefinders:
1) Cost/fairness: They are still expensive enough to get a good one ($150+), that it would be an unfair economic burden with players pressured to have them.
2) Slowing play: Players taking more time to get good readings, especially on open courses. Other players loaning them back and forth from those who have them since not all will have them.
3) Weight/space: Something else players would feel compelled to carry in their bag.

Personally, I'm not sure it will make much difference either way. But these are some of the problems to consider.



It might create a advantage to those who know how to use it correctly.

Not everyone can get their hands on {insert from list below} either, does that mean I can't use mine . . . All of these represent competitive advantages if needed and used.



Good point, Gary. I suppose there really is no such thing as a completely level playing field.

Also, if someone did have the ability to mechanically gauge the distance and accurately throw that exact distance, that player probably doesn't need the range finder in the first place. :p

Also, if someone did have the ability to mechanically gauge the distance and accurately throw that exact distance, that player probably doesn't need the range finder in the first place. :p



Now this is the truth of the matter!! :)

Personally, I would prefer correctly marked courses that include interim distances on 2 shot holes.

The way I see it, a local player has a tremendous advantage over a touring player just because he knows what the interim distances are and which tee signs are incorrect and by how much. Allowing measuring devices would level some of the home field advantage for those players that wish to invest in the technology.

When a 2-shot hole has two tees and multiple pins, what lengths do you identify, and where & how do you mark them? The course designers group hasn't figured out an easy way to handle that.

I use blue dots on my maps, A blue concrete marker in the landing area would work. With distances from the marker to the pins indicated on the tee sign.

A case could be made that players might actually play worse with rangefinders. Knowing the distance, assuming you got a correct reading off of something near where you're aiming, might actually cause you to throw less accurately than using your judgment.

The reasons cited in past discussions that were against rangefinders:
1) Cost/fairness: They are still expensive enough to get a good one ($150+), that it would be an unfair economic burden with players pressured to have them.
2) Slowing play: Players taking more time to get good readings, especially on open courses. Other players loaning them back and forth from those who have them since not all will have them.
3) Weight/space: Something else players would feel compelled to carry in their bag.

Personally, I'm not sure it will make much difference either way. But these are some of the problems to consider.



#1 was addressed well by gnduke.

#2 would be a concern. The PGA has demonstrated the opposite to be true in a tournament test.*

#3 seems of little concern as they would not be mandatory.

The only objection which stands is #2. However, I can see no reason to assume it is true. Would our current 30 second rule not still apply?

Do we have good baseline round times for tournament courses? We may not have the data to test and compare.

Interesting dilemma of balancing speed of play with competitive issues (we allow people to take time throwing blades of grass into air... we allow people to carry brooms and sweep tee pads [some safety there, as well], we allow people to step off distances [seen scott martin and stevie rico do it several times] as a few examples).

I stand by my argument that the pros outweigh the cons for tournament play.

*the PGA situation is obviously different. In a PGA tournament, there is much back and forth discussion and checking of official course documents and markers between a caddie and a player. We don't have that. Certainly players spend time asking each other about distances (illegal in PGA) and gauging distances... but my guess is we don't spend as much time as PGA.

Chuck, don't the tee signs at Token Creek show the different distances from each tee to each pin placement?

...The only objection which stands is #2. ...



Rick, was my argument that judging distances is a skill and an integral part of the game not valid?

Yes, no problem with tee signs having multiple lengths on them. It's markers in the fairway potentially being confusing for how far that point is to each pin, or for that matter, how to put permanent markers in the fairway. In ball golf, they sometimes have bushes at different lengths from the green like 150 yds and 200 yds. Our A, B & C pins can be quite different lengths from the landing area on a par 4 (unlike Token). I guess you put all three lengths on some cement marker in the ground. Hopefully, players will know which pin placement the basket is in currently.

Rick, was my argument that judging distances is a skill and an integral part of the game not valid?



Yes, but no more valid than being able to throw a certain distance if the distance is known.

When the tee says that it is 330', you still have to judge the wind and elevation to throw the appropriate length. It's also nice for a traveling player to be able to know the true distance (most of the tee signs I've seen are incorrect). You know which holes on your local courses are longer or shorter than the distance listed on the tee sign, the visiting players don't.

Rick, was my argument that judging distances is a skill and an integral part of the game not valid?



Yes, but no more valid than being able to throw a certain distance if the distance is known.

When the tee says that it is 330', you still have to judge the wind and elevation to throw the appropriate length. It's also nice for a traveling player to be able to know the true distance (most of the tee signs I've seen are incorrect). You know which holes on your local courses are longer or shorter than the distance listed on the tee sign, the visiting players don't.



The use of range finder simplifies the thought process in disc and shot selection by removing the unknown of how far the player is from the basket.

Whether a player is able to throw a certain distance if the distance is known is a separate skill.

...The only objection which stands is #2. ...



Rick, was my argument that judging distances is a skill and an integral part of the game not valid?



Contrary to gnduke, I don't see how it is.

Is accurately judging distances by eyeball an advantageous skill currently? Yes. However, using a range finder would be an equally advantageous skill... why prefer one over the other? Knowing the true lengths of holes (local knowledge and experience) is also advantageous... why prefer that over measuring the hole?

Is it to be considered integral to the game itself (as opposed to a mechanical device)? If we say yes then we are just begging the question.

Good conversation so far, thanks everyone.

Just a related point. Distance to the target is just as important in ball golf as it is in disc golf (maybe more so), the advantage that ball golfers enjoyed was that there are ample and accurate markers along the fairway indicating distance to the front of the green. Even with that advantage built into their courses, they are beginning to allow distance finding equipment. We as disc golfers have had to rely on questionable distances indicated on tee signs and no additional measurements after leaving the tee box.

I don't see it as being a major aid on most courses, but on mainly open courses with few obstacles to help judge distance, it would be a great help.

...The only objection which stands is #2. ...



Rick, was my argument that judging distances is a skill and an integral part of the game not valid?



Contrary to gnduke, I don't see how it is.

Is accurately judging distances by eyeball an advantageous skill currently? Yes. However, using a range finder would be an equally advantageous skill... why prefer one over the other? Knowing the true lengths of holes (local knowledge and experience) is also advantageous... why prefer that over measuring the hole?

Is it to be considered integral to the game itself (as opposed to a mechanical device)? If we say yes then we are just begging the question.

Good conversation so far, thanks everyone.



Range Finders would be awesome when playing those courses without any teesigns , tee areas or unmanaged courses.

I don't see it as being a major aid on most courses, but on mainly open courses with few obstacles to help judge distance, it would be a great help.



Imagine traveling to a course for a tournament and playing it for the first time (or, likewise, imagine playing half a dozen pin positions for the first time when the TD moves the course between rounds).

You stand on the tee box and the tee sign says 290 feet (I'm gonna throw my Aviar). Your eye tells you this is inaccurate, it is longer. But how much longer? Is it 310? (I'm gonna throw my Roc), or is it 330? (I'm gonna throw my Teebird).

A simple point and click while you are waiting for the tee box would answer your question (and if you do it while you should be throwing and subsequently take too long, your group gives you a warning and then penalties).

Its an aid on pretty much any course (unless you possess local knowledge through the experience of playing the hole in question numerous times).

i expected to see some brands and prices listed here.

anybody?? I want to make sure i'm throwing 300.. haha

I don't see it as being a major aid on most courses, but on mainly open courses with few obstacles to help judge distance, it would be a great help.



Imagine traveling to a course for a tournament and playing it for the first time (or, likewise, imagine playing half a dozen pin positions for the first time when the TD moves the course between rounds).

You stand on the tee box and the tee sign says 290 feet (I'm gonna throw my Aviar). Your eye tells you this is inaccurate, it is longer. But how much longer? Is it 310? (I'm gonna throw my Roc), or is it 330? (I'm gonna throw my Teebird).

A simple point and click while you are waiting for the tee box would answer your question (and if you do it while you should be throwing and subsequently take too long, your group gives you a warning and then penalties).

Its an aid on pretty much any course (unless you possess local knowledge through the experience of playing the hole in question numerous times).



Perfect call !!!!!! Totally true !!!!! You can not go by maps , teesigns or someone's word even , without actually throwing the hole first. :D

Why not just play a video game instead!!!

Why not just play a video game instead!!!



Umm... the range finder does not throw the disc for you.

It merely gives you accurate information about the hole you are playing.

the comment about open fairways is extremely valid. Going through woods, you won't get a lot of distance on one reading with most lrf's. A single twig, or even a blade of grass, will reflect the laser. But then, if the hole is that wide open, what's the real problem with using experience to judge what throw to make? That's where experience in the sport comes in, not just on that course.

Because EA has not done a Disc golf game yet.

I don't think using the ball golf analogy is a good one, all ball golfers we see on TV or local tournaments are professionals and have consistent caddies who travel with them. These caddies besides carrying the clubs, perform another function and that is determining distances on the course from various locations, rarely do they rely on the course information but they physically walk the course counting steps and such, why, because its their rear end on the line when the Golfer asks the distance to determine club selection.

Most Disc Golfer do not have travelling caddies at tournaments whom they pay to do the leg work. Instead they travel to the tournament location ahead of time to get a feel for the lay of the land shall we say, they can walk the course determine distances by practicing the course and feel prepared for the first day of competition, but what about the Pro's who can't travel ahead of the Tournament by 4 days to determine this information. Are they not at a disadvantage to the others, my guess is yes! But having a range finder during the tournament may not even the score, because the experience of playing the course ahead of time coupled by the idea of practice in the environment of the actual event will more often then not shadow the ability to red a lasered distance.

So my advice is to scout out a torunament ahead of time and find out if they adequately prepare you with information prior to playing the course, if not, then don't play at that event if you are not ready to accept the inherit disadvantages.