Disc thrown from tee clearly comes to rest on road OB 350 feet from tee box. Before the group proceeds from the tee area a car hits the disc and knocks it back in bounds. Is the disc IB or OB? What is the authority?

I called it OB because it came to rest OB. 803.07 B. provides that a disc at rest on the playing surface that is moved is to be replaced. However the definition of playing surface does not include OB road. Only a place where a stance can be taken can be playing surface by definition. A stance cannot be taken on an OB road so 803.07 B. does not authorize replacing the disc to the OB location where it was once at rest. Therefore 803.07 B. does not apply to the at rest OB disc knocked back in bounds by a car. If a car hitting a disc is the same thing as a disc hitting a car the above lie is IB under 803.07 A.

It is OB.

A disc hitting a car and a car hitting a disc that is at rest OB are not the same.

Once a disc comes to rest, that is where it should be marked.

I believe that 802.09D would apply to this situation. As the disc may not have been established as OB (must have clearly come to rest), and the disc was moved before OB status had been established, the disc would be played as IB. It may be questionable as 802.09D covers a player moving a disc of undetermined OB status before status is ruled upon.

Also, if you look at the 2M rule verbiage, it allows for a disc to be knocked out of the tree prior to the 2M ruling, so long as it's not done by a player or spectator, which might be used as an example here.

No matter what, I think an RC statement on this case would be good, as I've seen it hapen before (at Rum Village, I think it's hole 4 or 5)

If the group and the player all agree on an answer, that is the end of it unless a player on another card gets involved or something. If they don't all agree on an answer the player should play it as o.b. where it went o.b. AND as in bounds where he thinks it ended in bounds. He should record both scores. Then you all should ask the TD.

As a player that's all you need to know. Once the TD rules, assuming the Competition Director doesn't happen to be there, that's the answer. Rules don't mean a thing. All that matters is that if you don't like the group decision you can play it both ways and ask the TD to call it. And his call is final unless the competition director happens to be available.

Having said that, your use of the words "clearly comes to rest" answers the question. "A. A disc shall be considered out-of bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area." Your statement reads as if you've read the rule and know the standard: "comes to rest and clearly ... out-of-bounds."

The one answer questioning your premise is correct only if that is your premise and not the group consensus.

If the disc never clearly came to rest o.b., then the disc has fallen into a gap in the rules and you can only consider the spirit of the rules. At the end of the o.b. disc section the rule explains that if the thrower moves the disc before its status has been determined it is played as o.b. If another player moves the disc before its status is determined it is treated as in bounds and you penalize the other player two throws without a warning, unless he was unconscious. [Hey, its not my rule. I guess if a psychiatrist rules he was in a fugue state he can avoid the two-throw penalty.] There is a gap here if the disc was moved by a non-player. So the spirit of the rule is that if the status was never clear and the thrower is not at fault for moving the disc, he gets the benefit of the doubt and it is treated as if it were in bounds.

That's my answer. It will be your answer at any IOS tournament on the lower day.

Thursday night I finally got around to reading the new blue rule book. I had actually thought about the ruling when we had it happen and looked back through the rules I thought pertinant. I happen to think that this should fall into the 'Player Just Got Lucky' category. They're already punished some from the fact that their disc was run over. In the case we had, it was a semi that ran it over, and that was the most mangled DX plastic disc I've ever seen.

There was a similar question on the official's exam where a disc came to rest 2.1 meters in a tree, stayed there for four minutes, and then, before the disc is marked the disc falls out of the tree (and perhaps rolls a little). The question, what is the ruling?

I said mark it below where it came to rest in the tree, no penalty stroke. This was the wrong answer. The correct answer, mark it where it ended after the fall, no penalty stroke. (it was assumed the TD did not mention the 2 meter rule). The example that demonstrated that this was the correct call was the disc stuck in the basket scenario. Where if you get the disc before it falls out, it is in. Otherwise, it is not in.

It seems to me like the rule should be applied consistently, and this disc, which had not been marked, ended up in bounds after being run over by a car. Therefore it is in bounds. As a TD and a PDGA official, this is how I would rule. Please correct me if this is wrong.

why is there a thread about somebody lieing

The difference between the suspended disc and the disc in the street has to do with whether natural forces are involved AND observing the forces. If the OB disc is observed as being at rest OB, being hit by a car and kicked back in, I believe OB is the ruling. Of course, if a car kicks it back in (unintentional deflection) while it's still moving then it's IB.

As I understand the suspended disc dropping issue, which is like the disc wedged in the side of the basket, the disc was never truly at rest. We just couldn't see it. The proof would be that the disc dropped from the tree or popped out of the side of the basket and must have still been moving.

thats silly. it could have been completely at rest and some outside force, likethe wind for example, came along and moved it.

i guess if a car would have jumped off the road and smacked into the tree knocking the disc down, then it would have been marked directly under where it was in the tree???

803.07 Interference
A. A thrown disc that hits another player, spectator, or animal shall be played where it comes to rest. A thrown disc that is intentionally deflected or was caught and moved shall be marked as close as possible to the point of contact, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. Alternatively, for intentional interference only, the thrower has the option of taking a re-throw. Players shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with the flight or path of a disc could easily occur. The away player may require other players to mark their lies or move their equipment before making a throw if the player believes that either could interfere with his or her throw.

B. If a disc at rest on the playing surface or supported by the target is moved, the disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. If a marker disc is moved, the marker disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. (If the two meter penalty is in effect, see also 803.08 C and D for movement of a disc above the playing surface.)




The rule book clearly makes a distinction between a disc in motion (section A above) and a disc at rest (section B). It also clearly specifies the exception to Section B: cases where the 2-meter rule is in effect. If the disc in question wasn't suspended above 2-meters (or suspected of such) then the 2-meter exception shouldn't come into play.

The key point in the original post are the words "clearly came to rest". If the disc clearly came to rest, and that's the decision reached by the entire group, then section B of rule 803.07 applies. The disc is replaced as close as possible to its original location. Since that's an OB area, then the disc is OB.

If the disc's status is in dispute amongst the group, then you proceed as Bruce indicated, playing provisional shots from each possible lie (the last IB spot and the spot where the disc came to rest after the car hit it) and let the TD decide which is correct.

As to Steve's official's test question...reading the rule, the only thing specifically determined by the TD is whether a penalty is assessed for being suspended above 2-meters. The rest of the rule (how to proceed with a suspended disc) still remains in effect regardless of the penalty. So regardless of the penalty, a suspended disc that falls to the ground, unassisted by player or spectator, is played from where it comes to rest.

I think the application of the rules is pretty consistent in this regard.

--Josh

i guess if a car would have jumped off the road and smacked into the tree knocking the disc down, then it would have been marked directly under where it was in the tree???



Nope. That's already been addressed before. When someone's drive directly knocks another disc out of the tree, there's no penalty and the disc is played from where it lands on the ground. If it rolls OB, then the temporarily suspended disc ends up OB. The assumption is that the suspended disc was already on the way to falling out even if directly knocked out by a thrown disc or your example of the car.

This isn't new stuff. This was discussed some time ago, probably years ago as a side topic to all of the DROT discussions even back to rec.sport.disc threads.

so if my disc comes to rest leaning against the base of a a tree and as we are walking down the fairway the wind catched the underside and rolls it another 150 feet towards the basket, where do i play from?

Pat, this is discussion is pointless. The laws of quantum mechanics dictate that quantum particles (such as atoms, electrons, etc.) can never come to "rest". Meaning that the position is only defined to within a range and if the particle where to come to rest, it would have zero energy, which is not possible. Since the discs are made up of atoms, no disc is ever truly at rest. So give every throw ever in history 2 penalty strokes, for interfering with a disc that was not at rest. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ;)

so if my disc comes to rest leaning against the base of a tree and as we are walking down the fairway the wind catches the underside and rolls it another 150 feet towards the basket, where do i play from?




Back by the tree. Once the disc is at rest on the playing surface (group agreement), it gets replaced if moved by anything natural or not (803.07B). A related situation handled the same way is when a disc lands in OB water (see 803.09A). If your disc lands in OB water and then floats toward and ends up touching the IB bank before your group gets to it, the disc is still OB. That's assuming the group watched this happen. Making the disc move by water or wind acting on the water can't change the position of the disc once the disc's energy from throwing has dissipated.

I don't remember if it's in the rules anywhere, but I believe the same ruling occurs with casual water. If a rainstorm comes along with sections of running casual water on the course, your lie is marked where your disc lands based on the group's estimate of where it would have ended up without the water washing it across the fairway.

The main point being whether the group was able to see the disc at rest, instead of inferring that it was at rest because it saw it go over the curb and then saw it bounce back back inbounds after being hit by the truck.

I think the at rest determination requires direct observation.

...and it has to be on the playing surface.

The standard of proof on "at rest" looks like a "clear evidence" standard, from the use of the word "clearly." Circumstancial evidence can be clear evidence. Let me find the jury instruction on this.



Dang. It is not in the standard instructions. It must be in the Model Civils kept upstairs in chambers.

[brief interlude]

Oh, I was wrong. It is not in the instructions because it is only used in non-jury termination of parental rights cases, administrative law cases and for appellate review. Clear evidence requires [b]direct proof sufficient to establish a prima facie case. Where direct proof sufficient to establish a prima facie case has been presented, clear evidence may include circumstancial evidence.

So I would agree that the group or a spotter or an official or a bevy of nuns [I might take one nun with good references] would have to see the disc at rest and out of bounds for it to have been at rest and clearly out of bounds.

[I'm just making very dry fun. You guys sometimes sound like law students or rabbis when you try to parse these rules.]

C'mon Bruce, that's the funnest part....

No matter what, I think an RC statement on this case would be good, as I've seen it hapen before (at Rum Village, I think it's hole 4 or 5)



Hole 5. I play the skip off the road, pending traffic of course!

I appreciate everyone�s response. To clarify, there is no issue of fact in the questioned scenario. All players, from the tee area, plainly see the disc stop moving completely surrounded by OB road. Seconds after leaving the tee area the entire groups sees a moving vehicle tire strike the disc causing it to project back in bounds at a different location than where it left IB. The player in question properly preserves the issue by playing both lies to completion noting his score on each. The question for the TD at the end of the round is which version counts.

Does it not come down to a pure rule question of which resting point counts? Under the rules the first clearly perceived resting point is not always the resting point from which the lie is determined. Under 803.08 C. (2M rule in effect) only the resting point when the thrower arrives counts - the last perceived resting point. This is so even though the disc has clearly previously stopped moving lodged in a tree and the wind, another thrown disc or a vehicle crashing into the tree knocks the disc out. The rule for OB water is just the opposite - the first resting point counts. 803.09 A.

We already noted that the rule for the playing surface is first rest. 803.07 B. OB road is not a playing surface. The same rule says the first rest counts if moved from support by the target. However the last rest counts if a wedged or hanging disc falls out before the thrower [arrives] to remove it from the target. 803.13 B.

What is the rule that says the first perceived resting point is the default or the non-water OB resting point? The first rest counts if on the playing surface or in OB water. The last rest counts if OB2M. If the first rest is on a target the rest that counts depends on what caused the last rest to occur. I still don�t see the rule that applies to a non-water OB zone when the disc is moved by a non-player force from an apparent resting point prior to arrival.

803.01F Rule of Fairness. ...logical extension of the closest existing rule... Is the road more like a playing surface or like being suspended above the ground?

Or, use the OB rule 803.09A: A disc shall be considered OB only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and completely surrounded by the OB area. Since there's no playing surface in OB and no 2m rule where a disc being suspended is relevant, "at rest" is any location in OB whether on the ground or above ground, as the rule states. Was the disc "at rest" in the street? Sounds like the answer is "yes."

Or, use the OB rule 803.09A: A disc shall be considered OB only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and completely surrounded by the OB area. Since there's no playing surface in OB and no 2m rule where a disc being suspended is relevant, "at rest" is any location in OB whether on the ground or above ground, as the rule states. Was the disc "at rest" in the street? Sounds like the answer is "yes."



Oh no, now you are on the slippery slope around a suspended disc are again where the disc can be suspended over OB, but fall and roll IB before the player arrives and be considered IB.

Well, in that case I've read your brief counsel and i'm ready to rule. There's no issue of fact here so summary judgment is proper. The rule says the disc is out of bounds if it comes to rest and it is clearly surrounded by out of bounds. The disc came to rest and it was clearly surrounded by out of bounds. So it is out-of-bounds. There is really no issue if those facts are clear. I'm ruling against the thrower. You can submit an order under the seven day rule. Call the next case.