sglfladad
Feb 06 2006, 08:54 AM
My buddy and I had a situation that we weren't sure about correct scoring/play. Can someone please clarify?
Tee shot was likely out of bounds/wet. Due to terrain, we would coudn't quite tell.
We felt there were three options:
1. Retee as a provisional - in case it was out of bounds or lost - at this point, no charged throw against score
2. Assume out of bounds and retee- since the out of bounds rule states you can throw from previous lie or
3. Taken a drop from the spot we think it went out of bounds up to one meter away from and perpindicular to where it went out of bounds.
Option 1, discover disc is out of bounds, then becomes option 2. Out of bounds rule applies,
1, throw out of bounds, 2, retee, 3 penalty stroke , throwing 4
Option 2, same as above
Option 3,
1 throw out of bounds, 2 penalty stroke(drop) throwing 3
Am I interpreting this right?
Alacrity
Feb 06 2006, 09:09 AM
Unless you were in a hurry, you should verify it was out of bounds FIRST. Once this was done, the thrower could take the option to retee or take it at the last place in-bounds. The only time I would suggest you retee without verifying the disc's position is if the hike back to the tee-box is arduous or there is an overwhelming need to enforce speed of play.
If your partner reetees wihtout verifying the disc is OB, I believe your friend could be charged with a practice throw if it is found inbounds. If it is out of bounds, I would only retee if the last spot in bounds is unplayable. In most situations, but not all, the last spot in bounds in better than reeteeing. Once the disc is reeteed, you run the chance of having a worse second throw than the last spot in bounds.
As for scoring, if the option to reetee is taken, then three strokes are to be counted where the disc lies. If you go to the last spot in bounds and throw, then three strokes are to be ocunted where the disc lies. If you ree-teed and the disc is inbounds, You pick up your reetee, go to the first drive spot, throw and you are sitting with three strokes, one for a practice throw, two for the original disc.
Parkntwoputt
Feb 06 2006, 09:27 AM
You can use the provisional in an instance where the status of the disc is unknown, and the use of a provisional is to speed up play. It is up to the affected player (thrower) to decide if they shall use a provisional throw.
If the disc was in fact found to be OB, then the player is assessed a one throw penalty. They pick up the first throw that went OB. Their provisional counts as "rethrowing from the previous lie", and now they are lying three in the fairway. If the provisional shot were to land under the basket and the player were to make the putt, then the player would be carding a 4.
If the disc was found it be inbounds after the provisional was thrown, the provisional is picked up and the player plays from the original lie. There is no penalty for a legal provisional throw. This is why we have a rule allowing provisionals.
Personally, I would usually never re-tee or rethrow for an OB lie. You are still incurring the one throw penalty, however by playing from where the disc was last in bounds, usually advances you up the fairway and you have a better approach to the basket.
ck34
Feb 06 2006, 09:29 AM
You both should decide before doing anything that the disc will be declared OB and not lost if it's not found, if both of you reasonably thought the disc actually went OB if not found (803.09A). Then, if a provisional retee is thrown, it must be used as the third throw if the first disc is not found and officially declared OB. If the first disc is found, then the provisional is not counted and is not a practice throw (803.01C). Perhaps the best choice is to proceed to find the disc and not take a provisional unless reteeing is obviously the best choice rather than marking 1m inbounds if the disc is not found. That way, you retain the option to throw from 1m inbounds or reteeing after advancing to look for the disc.
Alacrity
Feb 06 2006, 09:40 AM
Guys, I disagree, if speed of play is not an issue then as per 803.01C
"C.Provisional Throws. Provisional throws are extra throws that are not added to a player�s score if they are not ultimately used in completion of the hole. The use of provisional throws is encouraged in all situations where there is a question regarding a thrower�s lie and a provisional would speed play "
it cannot be counted as a provisional. I realize that you could argue that speed of play would always come into play, because it appears to always be faster to throw another than to go check, come back and throw again. However, finding the reetee may take just as long.
ck34
Feb 06 2006, 09:53 AM
Jerry, the option to throw a provisional is in control of the group. If they allow the player to throw the provisional, regardless whether it actually speeds play, then there will be no practice throw penalty. If the player who yanked the original drive throws a provisional without consulting the group, then there might be a case for a practice throw penalty if the disc is found.
whorley
Feb 06 2006, 10:26 AM
You both should decide before doing anything that the disc will be declared OB and not lost if it's not found, if both of you reasonably thought the disc actually went OB if not found (803.09A). Then, if a provisional retee is thrown, it must be used as the third throw if the first disc is not found and officially declared OB. If the first disc is found, then the provisional is not counted and is not a practice throw (803.01C). Perhaps the best choice is to proceed to find the disc and not take a provisional unless reteeing is obviously the best choice rather than marking 1m inbounds if the disc is not found. That way, you retain the option to throw from 1m inbounds or reteeing after advancing to look for the disc.
The "lost disc" rule seemingly was amended by the RC because of the uncertainty involved with where to drop a lost disc. IMO, the current OB rule has the has the same uncertainty. No human can tell exactly (within a foot) where a disc went OB in most situations, and most tournament don't have spotters everywhere. Sometimes the drop area makes the difference between a great lie and a poor one.
If the lost disc rule was changed, why wasn't the OB rule? I believe that the OB rule should be changed to "stroke and distance" (1)to eliminate the aforementioned "uncertainty" and (2)so that provisionals can be thrown to speed up play. I also believe that a "lateral hazard" rule should/could be added to the rule book to allow for special circumstances when a "line of flight" drop would be used.
Alacrity
Feb 06 2006, 10:34 AM
Okay, I agree to that. However, I don't think I would approve it if there is time to determine the disc is OB or not, but I could see how others might and I would abide by group majority.
Jerry, the option to throw a provisional is in control of the group. If they allow the player to throw the provisional, regardless whether it actually speeds play, then there will be no practice throw penalty. If the player who yanked the original drive throws a provisional without consulting the group, then there might be a case for a practice throw penalty if the disc is found.
gnduke
Feb 06 2006, 11:20 AM
If the lost disc rule was changed, why wasn't the OB rule?
I believe that the options and penalties for both rules should have ramained similar so one does not become the obvious "desired" result of a search.
august
Feb 06 2006, 11:56 AM
It is up to the affected player (thrower) to decide if they shall use a provisional throw.
The only time this is true is if the player (thrower) disagrees with the group's decision. As Chuck has stated, the group determines whether or not a provisional may be thrown. Once you throw the provisional, you must play from whichever throw the group declares as the appropriate lie. You can also disagree with that decision and take it up with the TD later, but generally, you give up control over that when you take a provisional.
bruce_brakel
Feb 06 2006, 12:29 PM
In other words, if the group agrees it would save time and you decide to throw the provisional, you have to play the provisional unless the originally thrown disc is in bounds.
By choosing to throw the provisional you foreclose your other options, like playing from where the disc was last in bounds or playing from a drop zone if there is one.
Parkntwoputt
Feb 06 2006, 01:14 PM
By choosing to throw the provisional you foreclose your other options, like playing from where the disc was last in bounds or playing from a drop zone if there is one.
I thought that if there was a drop zone for an OB zone designated by the TD thay you had to use the drop zone? From my experience, drop zones were used so players do not "tin cup" the hole. If you do not have to take the drop zone, you can inherently voluntarily take yourself out of the tournament by emptying your bag trying to land inbounds.
Is that what you are saying Bruce?
august
Feb 06 2006, 02:49 PM
Drop zone is only required to be used if the TD announces that as a special condition. Otherwise, you have the three options quoted in 803.09.
bruce_brakel
Feb 06 2006, 03:24 PM
I think a TD can make the drop zone one of a player's options. I might be incorrect. What do the rules say?
bruce_brakel
Feb 06 2006, 03:27 PM
Yes, I am correct. The use of the drop zone is optional if the TD has given you that option and has not limited your other options.
sandalman
Feb 06 2006, 05:15 PM
is there anything preventing the drop zone from being relative to where the throw went out-of-bound? sure, it might change with each application, but......... where its say the zone must be a fixed position?
august
Feb 06 2006, 06:42 PM
If there's no marked drop zone on the course, then I would think that's no longer an option, leaving you with previous lie and last inbounds as your remaning options under the rules. The rule says "designated Drop Zone (sic) if provided" and I would say that means it has to be designated in some fixed location before it is considered as "provided" under the rules.