Why is it 30 seconds? Why not 1 minute? Why is there a time limit? Do you have to use a watch of some kind to make a call? or does mississippi count as a second?

These are all serious questions I have, not just aimless babble.

30 seconds as measured by real time. without such a limit, speed of play would be hurt as well as it might get in the head of other golfers on the card. you do get a warning before it's a stroke.

you cashed last year at the USDGC as well as many other places, and you've been playing a few years longer than i. have you ever heard someone called on it?



801.03 Excessive Time
A. A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed to each player to make a throw after:
(1) the previous player has thrown; and,
(2) the player has taken a reasonable time to arrive at the disc and mark the lie; and,
(3) the playing area is clear and free of distractions.

B. A player shall receive a warning for the first excessive time violation if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent excessive time violation in the same round if observed by two or more players of the group or an official.

just keep saying you are distracted and take as long as you want :D

Yeah. Me. It wasn't seconded, and it was called on an upshot, after we holed out, while we were teeing on the next hole.

Im just wondering if 2 people need to be watching a clock to make this call.

well, even if two players agree on the call, the first instance is just a warning. after that i would expect it would only be fair for two or more group members to literally time the player to see if a rules infraction had occurred (the whole group could use the same watch).

30 seconds actual time is a lot longer than it seems

i only have heard of it being called once -- last year a guy in contention at AM Nationals was warned for it during the final round. he never got stroked, but from what i gather it messed up that player's game for the rest of the round.

If you have to use a watch to make the second call, you should have to on the first as well. Another "grey" area.

Golf isn't a fast game. Sometimes thirty seconds isnt enough time.

Since the rule zealots are trying to make our game mimic ball golf, what is the rule on time in ball golf? I've seen some ball golfers (on TV) take well over 2 minutes once they reached their "lie". If someone knows, holla. I'm gonna go look it up.

i think there is no time limit, but the TD can issue a kick in the pants if he wishes, and that kick does carry some ramifications if a second kick needs to be administrated. i could be wrong about the details though.

Something about your whole group has to keep pace with the group ahead of you, and the whole card gets penalized if the group falls behind.

You are right.
I think that it should be more than 30 secs, but less than 1 minute. Does that sound reasonable? 30 seconds, to me, breaks down like this (in a longest case scenario):
5-10 seconds to survey possible routes
5-10 seconds to commit to route and check footing
2-10 seconds to clear debris
5 second mental prep
throw
17-35seconds is cutting it close plus, add another 10 seconds if change your mind.

Yeah, you have to stay within your slot on the course. But I think it's only the player, not the card.

Usually they're pretty lax about it, because the players tend to get pissy about being warned for it. (Hey, we're just like them!) Otherwise Bernhard Langer would be blackballed from the US PGA tour. "Human Rain Delay" is putting it lightly in regards to his speed of play. It never seems to be a big issue until the big TV events.

30 seconds is 25 seconds too long in my book. ;)

No need to make it longer, or I'll have to watch some people fake their putt fifteen times rather than ten.

yeah, fake putts aren't nearly as bad as fake runups by the back of the card. When you already have your bag on and start walking..then STOP, start walking..then STOP!

like i said, just claim a distraction and they cant call 30 seconds on you.

We had to warn a group at Players Cup that had 2 groups waiting behind on the tee and 3 open holes in front. They stated that they had not been taking longer than 30 seconds for their shots and that there was nothing they could do to speed up play. Officials shadowed the group and 2 holes later no one was waiting.

I have been called for Not taking a Full 3 seconds for putting !!!!! :eek:

No need to make it longer, or I'll have to watch some people fake their putt fifteen times rather than ten.


As long as they make it, who cares?

30 seconds is plenty of time.

OK, thread over! THE PRO has spoken, this is the word of Schweberger.

30 seconds is plenty of time.



Find a job yet? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

30 seconds is plenty of time.



Find a job yet? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Just went out on an interview 2day. WE shall see.

OK, thread over! THE PRO has spoken, this is the word of Schweberger.

Just as long as you know.

I apologize to the whole disc golf community for the excessive time I take per shot. I use my full 30 seconds for the round like I should. Oh wait, it's 30 seconds per shot???

i came to disc golf with an ultimate background so maybe i am pre-disposed to see taking longer than 10 seconds as stalling, but -- it is frustrating when there is someone on your card who takes 20 seconds for every shot -- or on the card ahead of you. At NT events in the Open division i wouldn't mind it so much, but when you see it in non-sanctioned play, it seems a bit much. nothing worth getting upset enough at that it hurts your game though...

It's the 20 second 8' putts with no wind that bother me.

It's the 20 second 8' putts with no wind that bother me.



...especially when they don't hit the basket.

It's the 20 second 8' putts with no wind that bother me.


Now Gary, stop taking cheap shots at Sandalman like that /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Pat's only really slow when it's raining. :cool:

or playing disc golf. :cool:

i used to be slow. i'm not anymore. in fact, i would wager that i am about average or even a bit faster than average of all MM1s. i know i can walk down the fairway a whole faster than all but the rarest MM1. especially bambam! that i go through the same routine for an 12' or 50' putt is perhaps something from which you could learn.

I don't know that I'd say you're not slow anymore.... maybe just not AS slow /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

And my putting routine seems to be working just fine these days. Just gotta work on getting the drives a little more consistent.

i used to be slow. i'm not anymore. in fact, i would wager that i am about average or even a bit faster than average of all MM1s. i know i can walk down the fairway a whole faster than all but the rarest MM1. especially bambam! that i go through the same routine for an 12' or 50' putt is perhaps something from which you could learn.



You must be on that better-with-age, all-natural, Barry Bonds vitamin regiment.

dude i am not anywhere close to 30 seconds. if they change it to 10 seconds i'll adjust. but if they allow 30 and someone takes 15 or 20 or 25 or 29.5, then you cant complain.

it has been a LONG time since i slowed down a round. especially one where we were on the same card. remember, even if i take 5 seconds more than you per shot, at worst i am gonna take 250 seconds longer than you in shot prep. but when you add in the extra time it takes for you to walk to all of your extra shots, then i am actually playing the course faster than you are! do the math for petes sake. :D

<font color="white"> (adding "slow play" to list of Pat's easy hot buttons) </font>
:D:D:D

like i cant see thru that. my button isnt having people say i play slow - i know that i dont. my button might be people who are foolish enuf to think they know my buttons :D

like i cant see thru that. my button isnt having people say i play slow - i know that i dont. my button might be people who are foolish enuf to think they know my buttons :D


Whatever helps ya sleep at night, Pat. :p

Pat isn't slow. He doesn't come anywhere close to 30 seconds. Now, a few YEARS back he would change discs two or three times before throwing. He now sees the shot and rarely changes discs. I think that comes with knowing his game and discs, whereas before he just wasn't as sure. I could be wrong about that. It's just my perception of watching his game over the last few years.

Most people don't know that they are slow. They are usually so deep into the moment that they don't have a clue if they are taking to much time. So now that I have said that, am I slow??? (NO COMMENTS ABOUT MENTAL CAPACITY!)

We'll have to get a caddy with a stop watch to walk with us one time and see how much time we take. I don't have any real idea if I am slow or not. I don't think that I am, but I don't really know.

yer not. you are just about the same as the rest of us. claydog can be fast. tabor can also be fast. pretty much every one else is the same. all of us can be slow when we are in the thorns shredding our arms looking for any remote possibility of an escape route.

I sometimes help other folks behind our group to look for a lost disc , if the group in front of us is really slow.

What is the real time someone has ,once they step up to putt ? I though it was 30 seconds ? Seen some take a few minutes , seems like !!!! :o

What is the least amount of time ? I was told , I have to wait atleast 3-5 seconds before I release ? Not true ?

Some clown tried to call me on a 3 second penalty , saying he didn't see me release slow enough. Right !!!! :D

Maybe I didn't see the make your own rules section !!!! ;)

You are right.
I think that it should be more than 30 secs, but less than 1 minute. Does that sound reasonable? 30 seconds, to me, breaks down like this (in a longest case scenario):
5-10 seconds to survey possible routes
5-10 seconds to commit to route and check footing
2-10 seconds to clear debris
5 second mental prep
throw
17-35seconds is cutting it close plus, add another 10 seconds if change your mind.


I like this table, The thing that gets me is when a player has an open putt, maybe with a little wind and takes 40 seconds, but If you have a vary peculiar lie, I can understand it, you might have to look at 3 different routes clear debris...exc.... sometimes I take too long on these putts, I try not too, but if your in an open field 15 seconds MAXIMUM!

30 seconds from the time you reach your lie and the area is free from distractions.

It could be argued that the debris behind your lie that you are trying to stand on is a distraction. :cool:

I have to say if you are standing around BS'ing when you could be thinking about what shots are optional, then maybe 30 seconds is a short time. The reality as I see it, by the time its my shot, I've already got a good idea what I'm going to do.

Agreed! and most the time you would not be called on time with your situation. But you could be and that is the game. It happens in chess.

Some take so long to get set up , I could run to the restroom , take a dump and still have time to putt !!!!

Been there done that, this year. Orange Vale, CA Hole #2. Man alive I ran my butt off, did the job came back and they were still setting up for that putt. It was just a strattal around a small tree in the middle of the field for par.

The new lost disc rule is ummmm HORRIBLE

It is the biggest waste of time EVER!

Not only you spend over 3 minutes looking for it, you force someone to go all the way back to the tee to throw again. I witnessed it for the first time this past weekend, luckily for me it wasn't mine, but I really felt for the fella who had to walk all the way back to the tee where there was a group waiting. It ended up being a 10 minute ordeal.

This rule should be changed back to the way it was or adapt the ball golf rule of in a straight line as far back as you want to go. The new rule cost someone cash, when obviously he would had made a 4 if it was last place seen, makes a 5 and misses cash by 1 stroke.

BAD RULE CHANGE! :(

801.03 Excessive Time
A. A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed to each player to make a throw after:
(1) the previous player has thrown; and,
(2) the player has taken a reasonable time to arrive at the disc and mark the lie; and,
(3) the playing area is clear and free of distractions.

B. A player shall receive a warning for the first excessive time violation if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent excessive time violation in the same round if observed by two or more players of the group or an official.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTOth3Bhf5E

Thoughts? :confused:

She needed to loft it a little higher... ;)

Yea, and a little flatter with more spin. Sure is windy. Nice hat.

Jeff, have you ever called anyone on 801.03?

There are too many variables at work.

"...reasonable amount of time..."

and my favorite

"...free of distractions..."

These are subjective and impossible to define universally.

There are too many variables at work.

"...reasonable amount of time..."

and my favorite

"...free of distractions..."

These are subjective and impossible to define universally.



Then why is it written that way in our rules? What good is a rule that is impossible to define universally and impossibly subjective?

Boy, I take a 1/2-day off from work, go on a 3 hr bike ride and come back to find Jeffy's dug up a 3 yr old thread.

My take on it Jeff is that if there were NO written time stipulation, some people would take FOREVER...and 4 hour rounds would be the tournament norm (remember, it only take 1 snail to slow down 89 potential rabbits). At least now (with a rule that 'technically' can't be followed), you can 'badger' someone into throwing a bit quicker and (hopefully) the badgering will rub off and that snail just might (even if subconsciously) play faster.

Karl
Ps: I guess we're on an animal kick here....

I have to admit that I feel a little better knowing that touring pros blow shots just as badly as I do....just not as many!

I have to admit that I feel a little better knowing that touring pros blow shots just as badly as I do....just not as many!



It is still probably close. Not matter how goo the round there is always 2-3 real dumb ones.

Anyway on the time thing, for the most part I am ok with it unless I am playing bad and the majority of the card is taking a little too long. I play pretty fast though for the most part unless i am having issues.

Jeff is right about this rule's wording being less than ideal.
i don't know how it could be better though. USGA rules are equally vague. You must not take "undue time", etc.
They do have a proviso that the committee (the tournament, I think) shall define time limits on individual holes and or the round.

We've all played with buddies who will occasionally announce "30 seconds!"

Of course, the timing doesn't officially begin until someone puts a clock on it.

We have rules like this to encourage the player to self-police. This is not the only rule that has some subjectivity to it. If someone is having trouble staying to the 30 second limit, you can tell them that it appears that they are taking a tad longer than 30 sec, and ask them if there were some distractions that were causing them to internally reset the clock. If they can cite some of these distractions, look for them on future shots. If not, you can politely ask them to give you a signal when they think the 30 sec should start, then you can give them some feedback as to how long they are taking. This should not be done with the goal of trying to give them a warning, maybe they honestly do not realize how long they are taking, and the feedback you give them would be valuable to them in estimating in the future the amount of time the rules give them to execute a throw.

I look at time more like a chess clock - you've got so much time to make so many throws in a round. If a player is generally fast, I cut them some slack on the one or two throws where if you timed it strictly by the rules, they might exceed 30 seconds. However, in my experience, maybe one in twenty disc golfers wears a watch...

I was running a tournament back in Maryland (my first time as a TD) with fivesomes and by the 9th hole a group had 3 empty holes in front of them (I was in the group behind them of course). I asked them to pick up the pace and they claimed they were not violating any rules and basically told me to mind my own business since I was not on their card. So we started timing them for 30 second violations. Every single person would take about 25 seconds to throw (before hacking a nearby tree), and the gap grew to four holes, but we could not do anything. Finally one guy took 31 seconds so I gave him a warning and told the group that we were timing them and one of the members threw a fit and chewed me out after the round for "ruining" their tournament.

I like the way they do it in ball golf. If there are two empty holes in front of the group then the group should get a warning. If they do not pick up the pace then the entire group should be penalized. Some shots require more attention and may take a bit longer, but if a pattern of slow play results in long delays for the entire field then I think it is appropriate that the entire group should be held accountable.

Apparently others remember this story differently than I do.

Yet another example of people getting upset when rules are actually called.

IMHO-
I think the practice of segregating divisions for the early rounds of tournaments slows the pace incredibly - that should be ended. The better players play faster and set a good example and can crack the whip a little. I would rather play with 3 Novices on a card than be behind a herd of turtles that set that magical 4-hour pace.
It's not really the time it takes to putt out that makes tournament pace so frustratingly long. It's the cards that do everything like they are 90 years old and the only ones in the park.

If you watch good ball golfers or dgers they keep up a pretty fast pace - they walk fast, light their cigarettes AFTER they throw, select the next disc (at least in their head) on the way to their lie.

the PGA has paired notoriously slow players on the last card during qualifying rounds and make them finish in the dark if they don't speed up. They do stroke them during final rounds.

5-somes should be explicitly banned by rule. they are the bane of tournaments everywhere.

Perspective from a slow player-

I'm slow. My usual routine takes at least 15 seconds, whether throwing or putting. Usually longer. Every single shot. When Bennett's not around, I am the slowest player on my card, by far. I hardly ever go over the 30 sec limit, but I would bet I'm at about 25 on most shots.

I have to concentrate and visualize. It's my routine. I've built it up over years, and it's how I play my best. I feel bad about holding up the my group. I apologize to my group. But I'm not going to change the routine I feel comfortable with. I make mistakes when I rush things. I pay good sized entry fees to compete against the players in my division and to play the course better than them. That's the goal.

It's how I roll, and I'm sorry for holding you guys up.

Just a thought, but since you seem conscious of and conscientious about reducing the impact of the pace of your play.

Do you make every effort to arrive at your disc prepared for the next shot. Having already gone through the probably options in your mind and preselected the most likely discs and shots you will use?

I have found that the slowest players I play with normally use too much time between arriving at their lie and taking a stance, not in the actual execution of the throw.

When I arrive at my disc, I normally have the next shot planned and often have the next disc in my hand. I will verify the conditions are as I expected as I mark my disc and occasionally change discs at that time, but it is normally to another disc I had already considered so there is very little time spent pondering the shot at the lie.

I have found that the slowest players I play with normally use too much time between arriving at their lie and taking a stance, not in the actual execution of the throw.





agreed- it's the ones who don't even know it's their shot that are the worst.

Apparently others remember this story differently than I do.



Yasssss?

Honestly, the difference between 10 seconds and 31 seconds on teeing, as mentioned by Gary, is not likely to be the problem.

Here is an exercise some should try, watch the Pros, they don't hurry at all. They actually take their time. The difference is that they are efficient. The only way to make lesser players fast is to rush them. They don't have the skill set to be efficient. Rushing them only makes the problem worse.

If you want to watch the Pros, go to DGTV on YouTube. Those guys really do take their time. Nothing is ever rushed.

Yup I try to get to my lie asap after the previous player has thrown. I try to have my disc in my hand, prepared to start my routine as soon as the previous player steps off the tee. I try to only take my time during my routine.
That can't always happen, but I try.

Yup I try to get to my lie asap after the previous player has thrown. I try to have my disc in my hand, prepared to start my routine as soon as the previous player steps off the tee. I try to only take my time during my routine.
That can't always happen, but I try.



I think that's exactly what the Pros do. My problem is that I take my time from hole to hole and then rush my shot... :D Actually, I think many players do do this...

I think you should try to plan your throw while you are waiting for other folks to throw. If I can, when I'm waiting for someone else's 2nd shot (or even their tee shot), I try to stand where I can see my disc and look at the obstacles and think about the route I want to take, so I've already thought through most of my shot options before I get to my lie. An advantage of this is that you often see lines when you are walking up that you might not see from the lie itself.

On the teebox, if I'm not the top of the card, I still usually get to the teebox ahead of my group by a few paces, and stand on the box and look down the alley so that I can be thinking about what I want to throw. That way, while I'm wating for the other players to throw, I can be getting my disc and be ready on the teepad as soon as they are done throwing.

When you do the mental work -- the planning -- in advance of getting to your lie or the teebox, it's very, very hard to take 30 seconds. It takes 10-15 seconds tops on most shots.

The main exceptions are difficult putts -- the kind where you're back in the trees and have three bad options and are straddling putting down on one knee under trees. Those shots can take me longer than 30 seconds, but most of that is getting situated at the lie, which is hard when it's back in trees/underbrush.

The other exception is when it's really windy. If it's crazy 40-50mph winds (or higher), I'll gladly take my full 30 seconds hoping for a gap in the breeze. Especially on those crucial 20' putts. What I do is start counting 30-mississippi to myself, so I know how much time I have to wait for the wind to die down. That way, I know I'm playing within the rules -- regardless of whether or not other people are counting. I also try to remind other people to do the same. There is nothing wrong with taking the full 30 seconds when the situation justifies it. There is something wrong with taking a full 30 seconds on every shot and slowing down the tournament when you say it's just "the way I play," and it ends up being a disservice to all of your fellow competitors.

It really is amazing how one or two slow players can add 30 minutes to a tourney round for everyone in the event...