We have 4 different levels of courses in my hometown.

9- holer, very easy- True Beginner

18- holer little longer, a creek runs through it, Intermediate

18-holer, longer, tougher, lots of over trees and through trees shots and over-water shots. Advanced

18-holer, toughest, lots of trees, fairway style, more length and variety of shots. 1000 rated round is a 53.

This last course is NEW to us and some people think we should have Am Tees to make the course easier to play. (They want to make a 2 on the hole)

The other camp says, If you want to birdie a hole go to one of the other courses in town. They feel like the whole point of having a tough course is just THAT, Tough.

Please, come forth with opinions.... Lord knows you have them!! :D

What are your criteria for DEPENDS? Depends on....?

Depends on damand for shorter tees, how close the other parks are, how well the am tees fit, if concrete is it possible to raise the funds...those are just things right off the top of my head.

Well one park is across the street. Literally. And the others are no more than five to six miles away. As for demand.... why would you need an Am Tee for a Tough course. The purpose of an Am Tee is to make a hole easier to play for a less skilled player... is it not? So my contention is.... we don't need Am Tees just go to the Pitch N Putt across the street.

at one of the local courses in Cincinnati (Idlewild) some holes of alternate pins, but not tee pads. In these cases it takes a legitimate par 5 to a 3. These aren't the hardest par 5s on the course though.
here is hole 13.

view from tee, short basket is 234 on right. long is 462. http://www.cincinnatidiscgolf.com/images/CoursePics/Idlewild/Idlewild13.jpg

approach to long pin
http://www.cincinnatidiscgolf.com/images/CoursePics/Idlewild/Idlewild13b.jpg

long pin location http://www.cincinnatidiscgolf.com/images/CoursePics/Idlewild/Idlewild13c.jpg

PDGA design guidelines are available for four different skill levels. If it's affordable, a shorter set of tees should be installed on 18-hole courses that are over about 5400 feet (300' per hole). If the funding is coming out of the player's pockets, I can see not doing the shorter tees in cement if other courses are available. But simple tee boards are pretty inexpensive and adding a shorter set of tees will better serve all players, some who may be visiting a course for the first time. I can't imagine a ball golf course telling their customers we decided not to put alternate tees in because there's a course for you down the road.

thanks goodness we're not ballgolf. i would tell them that playing the long tees will make them better players, or that they can choose their own alternate tee spot, or they can go to one of the easier courses in the area.

I have never seen a tee half way up the fairway at a ball golf course for first time golfers. Is that the way Augusta National is..... They've got a tee for me so I can drive the green..... I don't think so Chuck.

thanks goodness we're not ballgolf. i would tell them that playing the long tees will make them better players, or that they can choose their own alternate tee spot, or they can go to one of the easier courses in the area.



That's what I'm talkin' bout.

It's quite an arrogant attitude toward golfers who don't have and may never have your skills but still want to enjoy the sport at their level. As private course owners you would also be fools. Idlewild will never achieve the highest level of course evaluation if it remains without an appropriately designed second set of tees and that would be unfortunate. I understand players dragging their feet paying for another set of cement pads when park depts expect players to pay the bill. But many times, local players don't even let Park Depts know that alternate tees should be standard, not something special. I say shame on you as leaders.

I have never seen a tee half way up the fairway at a ball golf course for first time golfers. Is that the way Augusta National is..... They've got a tee for me so I can drive the green..... I don't think so Chuck.




Of course there is alternate shorter tees at BG courses...most BG courses I have played and seen on TV have up to 4 different tee areas.(Gold,Blue,White and Red...i beleive purple is also used in BG but not 100% sure on that)

Next time you watch golf on TV pay attention to the nice little areas in front of where the pros tee from, that would be the shorter tee areas.

Btw, if it means that much to you and the other locals then dont put them in. Its just my personal opinion that a course is better served by having alternate tees on holes if there can be. I just see that it only helps the course not hurt it.

Seconding what Chuck just said, I think it's vital for the growth of the sport to pitch a complete course to parks departments. I've seen way too many courses that were pitched unrealistically cheap, then later abandoned by the best players when the newest course opened, and ended up vandalized and dilapidated.

Course proposals should include an information board, tee signs, multiple tees, trash cans, benches, alternate pins, and a realistic picture of maintainance costs including potential vandalism. Of course parks may not always agree to pay for everything, but oftentimes they will.

The mentality of "let's pitch the course cheap just to get it in the ground and we'll figure out some way to add the other stuff later" makes the game frustrating for beginners and makes us look like a joke to potential sponsors. Not every course needs to be a championship layout, but every public course should have a beginner-friendly layout. We're way too small to be shutting out future disc golfers.

Seconding what Chuck just said, I think it's vital for the growth of the sport to pitch a complete course to parks departments. I've seen way too many courses that were pitched unrealistically cheap, then later abandoned by the best players when the newest course opened, and ended up vandalized and dilapidated.

Course proposals should include an information board, tee signs, multiple tees, trash cans, benches, alternate pins, and a realistic picture of maintainance costs including potential vandalism. Of course parks may not always agree to pay for everything, but oftentimes they will.

The mentality of "let's pitch the course cheap just to get it in the ground and we'll figure out some way to add the other stuff later" makes the game frustrating for beginners and makes us look like a joke to potential sponsors. Not every course needs to be a championship layout, but every public course should have a beginner-friendly layout. We're way too small to be shutting out future disc golfers.



Good points. Well said.

It's quite an arrogant attitude toward golfers who don't have and may never have your skills but still want to enjoy the sport at their level. As private course owners you would also be fools. Idlewild will never achieve the highest level of course evaluation if it remains without an appropriately designed second set of tees and that would be unfortunate. I understand players dragging their feet paying for another set of cement pads when park depts expect players to pay the bill. But many times, local players don't even let Park Depts know that alternate tees should be standard, not something special. I say shame on you as leaders.



Do you have to be able to reach the hole in one throw to enjoy the sport?

Even if players are at different skill levels why can't all players enjoy the course the way it was designed to be played?

Do you have to be able to reach the hole in one throw to enjoy the sport?


No, it takes 2 shots to get to the basket on my favorite holes! ;)

No one ever said anything about everyone being able to reach the hole in one shot.

Lets say you have a hole that is semi wooded and about 370 feet long, not a bad hole for an Advanced or Open player, there is plenty of score spread there..... Take that same hole for an Intermediate player and pretty much all of them take a drop in 3 everytime, very little score spread, almost worth just skipping the hole and marking down a 3 on the card.


Or maybe you have a shot that carries over water...it is about 280 to clear the water, plenty fair for an Open or Advanced player but just a disc collection pool for most others.

That is just a couple of examples (and maybe not the best of examples either) I am sure Chuck has plenty of examples with correct distances to share if he chooses to.

Do you have to be able to reach the hole in one throw to enjoy the sport?

If the hole is well designed to take two throws to get to the pin from the long tee, the shorter tee should also be designed so it takes two (shorter) throws to get there for those with lower skill. If higher skill players can reach the hole in one throw from a shorter tee, it's not bad design, it's just their choice to not be challenged. If they have fun doing so, who are you to say they shouldn't? I guarantee that on dogleg holes, even long throwers will still not be able to throw around corners to park their drive from a shorter tee.

Even if players are at different skill levels why can't all players enjoy the course the way it was designed to be played?

If you go to McDonalds, do you want to be forced to have a burger instead of chicken? Or would you rather have the option to choose a burger because it was on sale that day but chicken was still an option? It's a matter of choice. Why should lower skill players be forced to play a tougher layout where they don't have fun. That's what rec rounds are about isn't it?

Hey Chrispy , How you doing ?
I heard congrats are in order for you having become a daddy .
I am heading your way again in may of 06 .
I will be out there the whole month of may including the norman pro am .
Anyhow about the tee pads . Chuck Kennedy I have respected for a long time but when I first talked to him , he made me very upset .This was back in 98 . He came down real hard on my home course on the very first hole . It is a 279 ft uphill hole ( plays like 330 ) . HE BLASTED us on not having an am tee pad . I had explained to him that all the other courses in the area at the time the course was built had BORING 200 ft first holes and we wanted something different .
At that time not many people could reach the top of the hill and NOW with disc golf design most top level advanced and above have birdie ops .
As far as beginners , yea hole 1 they do take a hit ( probably shoot 4-5 ) but hole 2 is a down hill throw that can be 3-4 for almost everyone . Using my home course as an example , there are 2 holes that I would consider MUCH MORE worse for beginners then hole 1 . One is a down hill shot where off to the LEFT there is lots of schule, sticker bushes and the what not where beginners can LOSE PLASTIC which I consider much more a problem for beginners then a tough hole . ( by the way I have tried to clean up that hole as much as possible but it is still a disc loser to a degree )
Also the last hole on our home course shoots over a pond . The flight distance is only about 120 ft but we know as a true beginner that is a dangerous distance and it too is a BAD hole for lost discs .
Anyhow , This is just my opinion .
Cant wait to see you all again .
Bill Geibel

HEY BILL!!!!, Good to hear from you!

Chuck, In your opinion, is there anything wrong with the standpoint...If the rec player A) wants to have fun, B) doesn't want to be challenged, c) doesn't like a particular course's hard layout.....

DON"T GO TO PLAY THE HARD COURSE!!

Admittedly, we are new to designing and installing courses and appreciate and respect all of your opinions...that's why I asked..We are just tired of people sawing down our trees to make a hole easier....and now shorter pads have been suggested...I just say go to a easier course. Which in my town we have no shortage of. :D

The course design question should be phrased the other way, "Why should I install fewer than two sets of tees?" Temporary budget constraints is a good reason. Or if it's private property, the owner doesn't want more than one. The last reason might be the course is too short already (like under 4200 feet).

On public property, the local club or designer is doing a disservice to the disc playing public by not pursuing at least one alternate set of permanent tees when it can be afforded. In the mean time, tee boards are fine.

A shorter set of tees doesn't have to involve more tree cutting or easier holes. They are not connected. If the property has a decent amount of trees and some elevation, a good designer should be able to make a shorter layout just as fun, challenging (for that level) and interesting as the longer one, with few if any additional trees coming out. The shorter tee doesn't have to be right in front of the long tee. It might be only 40 feet shorter but off to the side for a different angle. In fact, make the shorter layout just as tough as the long one in terms of angles if you want to "get back" at those who wanted the shorter tees.

Don't connect "easy" with shorter. I'm pretty sure that every course I've designed as the lead designer over the past 15 years has been planned for dual tees. Ask those who played the shorter Red or White tees at the Mid-Nationals if those courses were a piece of cake. Not every hole needs two tees. Maybe 6-9 of your holes might still only have one tee if that length is proper for both skill levels it's for.

I was waiting for someone to say what Chuck did. The short tees shouldn't be easier for the Int players than the long tees are for the Adv/Pro players. I think the par (and difficulty level) for the hole should be the same from all tees, just designed for different skill levels.

A hole designed for Int level players doesn't mean an easy birdie for a Pro either.

It just means the lanes and landing areas are designed to challenge an int level player.

Another reason to have two sets of tees is for groups of mixed levels. If I go to a course with my wife, I play the long tees, she plays the shorts. If she had to play some of the long tees, her arm wouldn't last the entire round.

Here is a great reason for only installing long tees: pros and advanced players are not your main set of suspects when looking for the nitwits who vandalize tee signs, trash the course and break trees. Those nitwits don't like to play *hard* holes. If you want a lot of riff-raff abusing the course and equipment, install lots of holes they like to play.

It is fairly easy for anyone who finds long tees too long to tee off from wherever they find appropriate. Doing the labor and expensing the cost of extra concrete teepads on every hole takes a back seat to a lot of other course improvement priorities on the course i spend a lot of time doing volunteer work at...

Cop out for not putting in marked tee boards. Beginners have no idea about shorter tees when they are new to the sport. They are the local taxpayers who support the park and are not being served.

Not at the park i call home. rec players either say it is too hard and go to one of the 20 other area courses they find more to their liking, or they realize it is a championship calibre course that will make them much better if they keep playing it. The tax payers in this county have another course a mile away that is more Rec friendly. (though there are rec players who love and frequent Idlewild too -- the beauty makes playing it like a hike and disc golf outing rolled into one)

it's true little leaguers would find running the bases and hitting home runs difficult in a Major League ballpark... That's why there are little league ballparks.

it's fairly easy for a Rec player to create an impromptu short tee, but asking the Parks dept. or local Disc Golf club to pay for the extra concrete and/or labor of adding more teepads isn't in the cards, and as far as i can tell the course pro/designer also feels that more short tee options (than the two that already exist) are not appropriate for a course designed to approximate pro par 72 disc golf. There are a few holes with short and long pin options though (both in ground).

imo, having several tees is nice but not having them isn't so bad either and may be more practical.

as far as i can tell the course pro/designer also feels that more short tee options (than the two that already exist) are not appropriate for a course designed to approximate pro par 72 disc golf.



And why is that only appropriate for the elite skill level? Rec players still play a par 72 layout at Pebble Beach and Augusta National (called 'Member' tees) from shorter tees. You want to wean Rec players from just par 3 disc golf and yet you would rather bludgeon them with Gold level tees as the only option?

I would have to say from my perspective, that I enjoy playing all of the courses available to me. However, I have played some holes where you had to get a set distance off the tee to land in a safe area. When you are physically unable to throw to that area, it makes it very frustrating. It's easy to say that the newer players can go to the course across the street, etc, but in alot of cases, they are playing with other players with higher skill levels, so what you are really saying is, if you can't hang with us, just go home. I don't think you would need a second tee on any hole, just because it was long, but I would consider putting them on holes where you are forcing a set distance off the tee to land in a desirable landing area.

There absolutely should be a short set of tees on a long public course. The course I am building right now was designed from the long tees to be a long course because we don't have enough of them in SE Virginia. But short tees for rec players was part of the plan all along. This course is near the College of William & Mary and we want to attract new players from that source. New players will be discouraged by a 6900-foot course. Newport News Park is in the 4500-foot range, but it's 13 miles away and is already over-used.

For a private course, I can see having only one set of tees. But for a public course paid for with tax dollars, it is important not to alienate new players. Private courses are usually for players who have been involved in the sport for a while and have some skills. But when you are learning to play, your first experience should be enjoyable and rewarding, not defeating. Not that it won't be frustrating first time out, but you shouldn't have to throw your arm out.

There are several reasons for a short set of tees, one is that it gives the starting player a feeling of accomplishment to master a short set of tees and know they can now play on a longer set for more challenge. A lot of beginners will never play a course a second time if they are constantly in trouble.

The anothe reason is for tournament concerns. If you put rec players on true Advanced pads you can expect the recreations players to take longer to complete the course. Whereas if you have a set of Red pads, the rec players should take about the same amount of time to complete a round.

Another reason for a shorter set of tees, especially for a Gold course like Idlewild, is gender discrimination. Gold courses are designed for players with ratings around 975 and higher. There are currently no women in the world in that range. Of course, Park Depts don't know that and some Gold designers may not have thought of this issue. I'm sure if they knew, they wouldn't want to be seen as discriminatory in their recreational facilities.

I talked with Shawn and Juliana last year at Worlds about different tee layouts in relation to women. It's been a touchy subject on occasion but she explained how the elite women apparently have come to view alternate tees (I try never to put words in women's mouths). They seem to accept that they play at a Blue skill level but don't mind the challenge of Gold tees when available. But, when TDs provide alternate tees for pro women, they should not be described as women's tees, but Blue tees. All other Blue level players should be playing them, too, such as GM and older Pro men and Advanced Men. As long as it's skill and not gender that determines alternate tees, then it makes the layouts better for all competitors at that level.

Gold courses are long and generally over tough terrain. Putting Red tees on a Gold course will make one group walk quite a bit from pin to the next tee depending on who the course was designed for. Red tees don't make a lot of sense on a Gold course. However, White or even Blue tees would serve another set of players that's a much larger percentage of all players than Gold, which is under 10% of the PDGA, let alone all disc golfers. Our Highbridge Gold course has shorter White tees and our new course called The Bear will have Gold and Blue tees. These are much more compatible with a long course over 8000 feet. You'll also find that more rec rounds will be played from the shorter tees because it goes faster and more players are closer to that skill level. Thay may play the Golds once to say they did it. But when they return they play the shorter tees and still get to say thay played the Gold course.

Please accept this as constructive rather than as negativity as I'm only trying to point to logical similarity :) Intended as rhetorical, rather than moral parallels:

The same basic arguments you use, are many of the same arguments that were used to segregate Blacks and Whites in the south before civil rights laws. Blacks had their own drinking fountains 'right over there' next to the whites only fountain, blacks had schools that were built for them and whites had schools built for them, blacks sit in the back of the bus, Whites in the front, etc

And continue efforts to this day for equal treatment for blacks, it's not hard to find those who hold the opinion that "go back to Africa."


Admittedly, we are new to designing and installing courses and appreciate and respect all of your opinions...that's why I asked..We are just tired of people sawing down our trees to make a hole easier....and now shorter pads have been suggested...I just say go to a easier course. Which in my town we have no shortage of. :D

Another reason for a shorter set of tees, especially for a Gold course like Idlewild, is gender discrimination.



actually it has nothing to do with gender -- it has to do with skill. and it doesn't discriminate against less-skilled players -- they are quite free to play it. Juliana played Idlewild very skillfully from the longs last May at the DiscnDat Bluegrass Open, with a round rated at 972 and a round of 981.

when i found Idlewild i was playing at a sub-900 level but i loved the place and it was the challenge it presents that converted me into an avid disc golfer. I never played the few short tees that were in place because i wanted to learn to master the long tees (or at least try).

i don't like the idea of copying ball golf's model, but it does make sense to cater to players of all levels and have several tee (or pin) options at most courses in order to facilitate the growth of our sport. that said, i like the idea of there being Idlewild (gold level) courses -- especially in places like the greater Cincinnati area where there are about 20 courses.

I would also prefer that an area or county put in a second course before putting in three separate teepads for each hole on one course if the finances of a Park dept say it can do one or the other but not both. but where we have the funds to do so, several teepads makes sense. At Idlewild, presently holes 3 and 14 have long and short tees, and holes 2, 13, and 16 have long and short pins (both baskets simultaneously in place). I would like to see a short tee added for hole 6 (probably the most difficult hole on the course), but it doesn't look like it will happen anytime soon.

When you bring up Augusta and Pebble Beach i guess you are talking about ball golf :confused:

We had a meeting with the Parks and Rec guy today at lunch.
It looks like we will have 4 short/alternate tees at Griffin with concrete pads.

chrisp,which holes are you planning on having alts for? i know #2 will be one of them:)

Comments from a true Amateur( Just joined PDGA - I think my name is still on the newest member list).

I have been playing a little over a year and I personally like the challenge of a tougher course. We have two primary courses in Lexington KY. Shilito (Short & Open) and Veteran's which is primarily wooded with disc catching water in a few places. The local Club has installed alternate Basket placements on many of the holes at Shilito & have recently started on Veterans's (3 added in the past 6 weeks). Our courses are fairly close together (less than 5 miles) and you primarily see most of the newer players at Shilito until they start to get better and then they occasionally show up at Vet's.

I think if there is an easy alternative close by, then alternate TeePads are not a necessity. Alternate Basket placements or TeePads are nice, not to make it easier, but to change things up once in a while. You don't have to get a 2 or 3 on every hole to enjoy the game ( It would be nice! ). Hoping to try Idlewild (Cincy Area) this Spring.

That's the one thing designers need to keep in mind when putting in Am tees. They should not be "easier" than the other tees, just length/shot appropriate versions of the long tees.

Many holes are not long or tough enough to warrant "short tees", but an additional tee that requires a different shot could be useful.

chrisp,which holes are you planning on having alts for? i know #2 will be one of them:)



You could put alt in on every hole at Griffen. There is enough room and you would not have to worry about losing your plastic like every other course in town.

http://www.golfopinions.com/Warning.jpg

my .02

we all play the same course, skill level is the determination of a players division, not the stipulated course. Last year we ran an event on a "gold course" where 57 was a 1000 rated round. had guys in the novice division that took 70+ shots per round and were asking if the course would be permanant, they wanted to play it to "improve there game"

we have 3 permanant courses here, a nine hole dinker and 2 18 hole 4500-5900 foot courses, we are working with the city to make one of the 18 holers an 8000+ gold permanant layout. my .02 is if you build it they will come. :D

Everyone seems to be forgetting that we all agree with that point of view. That in a perfect world, every course would be set up with holes that were all gold par 3 or above and none of this conversation would be necessary.

The problem we have is that 80-90 % of the courses currently in the ground have an SSA of less than 54. Meaning par 2 holes. Very few people want to see holes labled as par 2 even when they know, standing on the tee, that for their division, a 3 is a bogie.

In order to keep the labled course pars above 54, the pars need to be based on an offset of 1000 rated par. This would also help in identifying the challenge level each course presents. All the SSA would tell you is about how many par 2s ther are, a red or white rating would tell you the length and challenge of the course.

The problem we have is that 80-90 % of the courses currently in the ground have an SSA of less than 54. Meaning par 2 holes.



Entirely misleading statement, coming from either of the proposed ways of determining par.


In order to keep the labled course pars above 54, the pars need to be based on an offset of 1000 rated par.



Another misleading statement, and if read closely illuminates just how much confusion is required to communicate this bastardized notion of par.

What's wrong with there being easy courses and hard courses, well-designed courses and poorly-designed courses, all of which have a universal measure applied to each hole: par.

Sorry, wrong thread, but the point behind the leading statements was:

I am looking for a meaningful version of Par that excludes par 2 holes. If any standard for par is used that based on "expert" play, and excludes par 2 holes (nothing less than 54 for 18 holes) then a large number of courses will be par 54 even they play far below that.

Since redesigning all of the courses is impossible and not necessarily a good thing, a subjective method of deterimining par is required for "recreational" courses.

Labeling them as red or white, recreational or community, or any other set of names you wish to use is a solution. Not a perfect or tremendously desirable solution, but a workable, intuitive, measurable solution.

At the toughest course in the Raleigh area, Buckhorn, we have 3 sets of tees. There are concrete pads for the blue (5700', par 58, WCP 55) and white (4500', par 54, WCP 48) tees, and natural pads marked by painted rocks for the red (3200') tees.

This park is 20 minutes' drive from another course and the red tees make the course playable and enjoyable for Boy Scouts, novices, intermediate women, etc. Particularly in the case of mixed-ability groups, I think it is helpful to have 2-3 sets of tees. Most beginners don't want to throw 110 shots and take 2-3 hours to play a round of disc golf.