If your pdga dues were doubled would you sign up next year? <font color="red"> [Note from moderator: This is not an official PDGA poll and there is no such proposal on any table, anywhere. Don't get all worked up!] </font>

Of course that's if you are referring to regular dues.

If the Ace Club dues doubled, I might have to drop back a little.

Certainly. It doesn't matter if you signed up for 3 years or more. You are locked in.

Anyway it's just $55. I pay 6 times that each year for satellite radio. I guess I would pay up to $350/yr for my PDGA membership.

how is this even remotely a Ratings & Skill-based Competition topic? i'm also concerened that some readers might actually believe this is a serious poll and that the PDGA is considering such an increase.

I only play one or two tourniments that require me to have a memebership in the first plase, so that would be a big NO for me.

You worry too much! :cool: Besides, I think if you do the math you will see that the players who pay more in dues, on the average, have a higher rating than those who don't. If dues were to go up to $100, your rating might go up to 980!
:D

In the last two years, I've played 37 sanctioned events (37 * $5 = $185). I guess it would still be economically feasible for me to do so --- but I doubt that I would.

So no --- if the membership was doubled next year from its current level, I would not renew. I already $$$ sponsor several local TDs' events every year, and I would rather continue to donate to local TDs and events than to an inflated membership rate.

I voted yes because I really like Disc Golf World News, there would have to be justification for the increase in dues though, hopefully being that there would be an increase in prize money.

You worry too much! :cool: Besides, I think if you do the math you will see that the players who pay more in dues, on the average, have a higher rating than those who don't. If dues were to go up to $100, your rating might go up to 980!
:D

hmmm, interesting theory. in that case, i'm glad i voted yes!

I voted no. Why? Because you did not tell me what you intended to do with that extra money. If there was no particular benefit for the "average" PDGA dues payer, why would he/she sign up for double the cost. You might actually lose half the members effectively raising no extra money.

If you base numbers on 10,000 members, you could add $100,000 to the budget by just raising dues $10. That could add one more person and money for additional projects if that's the intent.

HELL NO

HELL NO



TESTIFY

i voted no. if i were to improve significantly this year and cash more often, i'd change my tune quickly. Or if my discretionary income improves. For every member for whom $100 is pocket change, there are others for whom it is a pretty big deal.

I like the idea of giving the PDGA hq a bigger budget to work with, but my concern is that i predict an increase in fees will decrease the total membership (if it grows it will grow at a slower pace). The Pro ranks could probably absorb a fee increase without as significant a decrease than the AM.s...


i think you'll alienate many members if you raise fees more than 10%. It may also increase the hesitancy of members to go from AM to Pro. I made the jump this year but would not have renewed if the cost had been higher.

$40 is a lot of money if you're a kid and your family has trouble meeting bills -- and i'd like to see us make PDGA membership affordable for all up-and-coming disc golf-loving kids. One solution might be a "new amateur member" cost of say $30 to reel newbies in.

If you base numbers on 10,000 members, you could add $100,000 to the budget by just raising dues $10. That could add one more person and money for additional projects if that's the intent.



I like this idea....increase the rate by say $25....its not a deal breaker of an increase, and yet more $$$ can be allocated to things we all want improved.

It's only more money if there are enough renewals to make up for the loss of those that don't renew. Depending on the numbers, it would be possible that the PDGA would have less revenue from member fees if a large percentage of current members do not renew.

It's only more money if there are enough renewals to make up for the loss of those that don't renew. Depending on the numbers, it would be possible that the PDGA would have less revenue from member fees if a large percentage of current members do not renew.



But even using just a $10 increase (As Chuck points out) can create more revenue...and if people refuse to renew over $10, they obviously have too many other priorities to even play DG.

If you base numbers on 10,000 members, you could add $100,000 to the budget by just raising dues $10. That could add one more person and money for additional projects if that's the intent.



I like this idea....increase the rate by say $25....its not a deal breaker of an increase, and yet more $$$ can be allocated to things we all want improved.



I thought you were talking about a $25 increase in the above sentence. I agree that a $10 increase will see a higher rate of renewal than a $25 increase.

It's also necessary to note that any increase (even $10) in cost of membership lowers the rate of renewal. If one of your goals is to say to sponsors that you have x number of members, then it's not beneficial in that respect to raise the price.

all I can say is if the player does not see what the get for being a PDGA member other than ratings and saving $5 at each tournament than how can you increase it. when you increase you have to offer more and ratings just is not enuff. Hell I see more and more players not renewing and more more tournies being non-sanctioned. Just not real sure what the PDGA hs to offer. oh yea almost forgot there is a magazine that shows up talking about the same players in every edition

We don't even know what PDGA HQs does with the money it takes in now . We don't even know how much is paid out in salaries and what those salaries are. It's silly to talk about what would be done with the extra money when we don't even know what's being done with the money. Seriously, how much are annual
BOD expenses? If anyone out there has a clue they're not telling.

<font color="red"> [Thank you, Jason, for a startlingly apt example of how people's time can be wasted by inane accusations and statements of nonfact. The info is published in the magazine every single year, as is pointed out later in this thread by others.] </font>

If you base numbers on 10,000 members, you could add $100,000 to the budget by just raising dues $10. That could add one more person and money for additional projects if that's the intent.

I like this idea....increase the rate by say $25....its not a deal breaker of an increase, and yet more $$$ can be allocated to things we all want improved.

I like this idea too but first we need to pass a rule that there is no price elasticity of demand. Or maybe I'm being facetious because the idea is economically naive. I'm not sure.

Page 67 of the Spring DGWN issue (and each previous spring issue). Personnel in 2004 $112,752, Budget for 2005 $210,500 primarily due to adding two new full time staff. Actual 2005 expenditures will be reported at Summit meeting in Phoenix as is done every year.

We don't even know what PDGA HQs does with the money it takes in now . We don't even know how much is paid out in salaries and what those salaries are. It's silly to talk about what would be done with the extra money when we don't even know what's being done with the money. Seriously, how much are annual BOD expenses? If anyone out there has a clue they're not telling.



No one is getting rich from disc golf. Jason, you know that the expenses are printed yearly in DGWN - this has been conveyed to you dozens of times. Jason, you're a good man and a natural leader in disc golf; however, you come on a bit too strong in your anti-PDGA crusade, and I for one of many wish you would just stop already. It's horrible, self-killing. Remember where this is coming from.

I was actually very surprised that dues stayed the same....

One thing we MUST remember, is that disc golfers as a general rule are a bunch of cheap, er uh, well they are cheap. Doubling the rate would result in a significant decrease in renewals.

Someone stated that the Open division would not decrease significantly, but I don't think that is true. Look at the current list of non-current open players. If you look at those 40 and under about 45% are not renewed in open divisions and about 47% in the amateur divisions. There are approximately 4 times as many amateurs as there are Open players.

The percentages of non-renewed players is close enough that there is no significant statistical difference. If Open players were more dedicated then there should be a large difference. If rates need to be raised, it would be better to let the membership, as a whole know that rates will have to be increased over the next couple of years, to meet rasing costs. Make the first increase only $5 next year and see if growth and renewal hold. With the comparison you should be able to determine "what the market will bear". A few subsequent increases could then be performed.

By the way, I would not renew if my rate went greater than the current rate plus 50%.

So, what was the purpose of this poll? Unless the poster, David McCormack, is in an altruistic guise and helping the PDGA collect data on what members see as 'value', which he is not, it seems as though all that has been accomplished is irritating some members who've been duped into thinking there is a real proposal to double dues.

There's not; and this is another borderline use of DISCussion, a PDGA resource, that damages the PDGA and may lead to the demise of the entire board.

So, what is the point, Dave?

P.S. Jerry, I note your surprise that the rate doesn't go up annually. I am a proponent of at least a small raise every year - you know, the old 'boil the frog' concept.

terry i dont understand whats wrong with this discussion I for one find it very interesting. Disc golf is an ever growing sport and with it the pdga grows, this poll seems to me a good way to show that the "average" player is content with the pdga, but I know a bunch of open players that are upset with the low amount of professionally run tournaments (volunteer spotters, quiet please signs) and the prize money offered. Heck the arm wrestling champion gets 25k and espn coverage. It appears dave wanted to know who cares if disc golf becomes big, and whos happy with its current casual status. I know if I was paying $110 and was getting a lot of extra VISUAL benefits I would be a lot happier than just getting what I do now. I'm relatively new to the sport so I havent seen a lot of change, but there are a lot of really good ideas myself and others have come up with on the boards that if the pdga had more money it could venture towards. Also taxwise im no cpa but my accounting teacher told me there was a way to deduct dues as a donation because the pdga is non profit, so everyone complaining about an increase in price that helps offset it. Also why not increase pro dues to $100 and ams only $10, allow people who dont wanna pay for the increase to be revaluaed or w.e. But I think its quite poor for pdga officials to be talking about one of the biggest disc companies and a major disc golf contributer negatively and while jason may have his tangents on the issue of allocation of funds I find the report to be vague at best. The first thing we ever looked at were financial reports in accounting class. This isnt 10% as in depth. It says there was an increase in the 2005 budget for personnel of close to $100k, where more people hired? It just says who works there not the changes. Clarification would be great. Im not saying the pdga is hordeing money or anything ridiculous like that, im just saying dues are an investment and people want to see a return. You guys are doing a good job dont get me wrong, but the sports growth demands growth of its govering body, and dues support most of you income. Also the pro shops did they report a loss, graphs help immensely as I'm just learning all these things and we want to see if theres a loss or gain, and by how much etc. The pdga has to be careful in its eagerness to censor and complain about people because there are great tournaments that are not pdga tournaments and fewer people will join the pdga if they dont have to.

well, all those benefits sound wonderful and great, but check this out:

56% of the respondents say they wouldnt rejoin!

that means a net DECREASE in PDGA revenues, which translates into LESS of the CURRENT benefits instead of additional new benefits.

further, it means LESS members which means LESS players at A and NT events, wihch means LESS purse and a smaller sport!

hmmm...... without even knowing what the purpose of this poll was/is, i can tell you from both a researcher's and economist's perspective, the poll results will not yield any meaningful insight but it WILL casue confusion and constrenation among its readers (both members and non-members).

thank you Terry for adding the disclaimer to the poll. please consider moving it to another message baord section to further minimize the confusion.

Jeff if you're going to stalk me again you could at least come up with your own lines, instead of lifting my advice to you about Nick Kight. Maybe you're right, though, it does no good to repeatedly harp about the PDGA not following its own constitution, since once its leadership began successfully ignoring key passages in that now irrelevant document with impunity -- Who was going to stop them? -- there was no authority with accountability to complain to. So you're right Jeff, I should just stop complaining about the PDGA, since it's too late for our beloved organziation. It has been hijacked by the very people elected to run it, and a couple people appointed by those elected to earn salaries that, again, the membership is not privy to. I'm particularly interested in Dan Roddick's salary, since according to rumor (that's all we have), it went DOWN significantly. Well, why? Does he do less now? Did the PDGA, in one of its exectuive sessions, decide it just didn't look good to fork over the same dough for "Special Projects." Heck, I'd like to be in charge of special projects. As tournament organizers, that's what we do -- special projects.

Some jobs sound positively dreamy; only wish, as usual, that we had more of the details. What do John Chapman and David Gentry do? Wait, who cares about John Chapman? He's a volunteer. Whatever he does is a bonus. I know very little about David Gentry, except that he told me last year's MSDGC would be an NT, only to be overruled by his boss. David Gentry also called my partner to tell me I got reinstated as a PDGA Official. Steve said "Don't tell ME, tell Jason." David didn't call or e-mail me with that information. Guess he was busy doing more important stuff, the nature of which, I have no clue.

So there it is, Jeff. My complaints are indeed a waste of time. I can't get the PDGA to right its ship anymore than you can get Nick to shut his big yap.

But, then again, everyone already knows that Nick posts a lot about a lot of things and that you don't like him. Not everybody on these pages, however, realize that the PDGA has been taken over by a band of rogue frisbee organizers who answer to no one but themselves, and, sorry to repeat myself so often, don't even follow their own constitution.

So stop using the discussion page to air your PDGA grievances, you say. Good advice. I was perusing the PDGA Constitution this evening, and the minutes of the last few meetings. Somewhere in that category there was a link that said:

"You can contact Board members and other significant PDGA volunteers and staff using the functionality on this web page."

None of the links to any of them worked. Classic. We got George Bush running the country in a bubble and much of the same at ol' PDGA Headquarters. They all must be geniuses, cause it's so hard for a simple guy like me to understand why they do the things they do, and how it all got so far away from what the writers of the (PDGA) consitution put down on paper.

Here's another interesting list from this here website. It's of all the people currently suspended by the PDGA:

7/15/03 7/15/13 14739 Dave Mellin FL 10 Year Suspension
7/20/2004 TBD 18411 Blake Huffman OK 6 Month (Minimum) Suspension
5/16/2005 8/16/2006 25516
Jason Holmes WI 3 Months Suspension, 1 Year Probation
7/18/2005 11/17/2006 24206
Mark Clark IL 4 Months Suspension, 1 Year Probation
7/18/2005 7/17/2008 13664
Cameron Rauenhorst OR 1 Year Suspension, 2 Years Probation
8/8/2005 TBD 24795
Brandon Merzlock ID 3 Month (Minimum) Suspension
9/2/2005 TBD 20240
Clell LaBonte OH 3 Month (Minimum) Suspension
9/2/2005 TBD 17582
Chris Hoyle OH 3 Month (Minimum) Suspension
9/2/2005 TBD 13409
Billy Ping KY 3 Month (Minimum) Suspension

The only guy I know is Cameron Rauenhurst. He went to a tournament, got really drunk, and shot someone in the head with a pellet gun.

It just makes me wonder what the guy did who got suspended for ten years. Maybe he took a couple of the PDGA leaders aside and discretely pointed out that if they were going to subject disc golfers to dress codes for the sake of an outward appearance of professionalism, maybe it would be prudent to start using deodorant. Who knows? Not me. Why? Cause so far the PDGA ain't telling. It's not their policy to publicize their disciplinary actions. Must be nice operating without any guidance but your own sense of what needs to be done. Some jobs really are dreamy.

Actually from an economists point of view the poll yielded nothing. The people who responded votes are all null because pdga officials monitor the board and they're voting yes means that dues WILL be raised if they voted yes. Honestly if you refuse to renew if your pdga dues were doubled thats something, but dave said what about only $10 after the fact, anyone who refuses for $10 more is really not interested in helping the sport too much, $10 is nothing. Also sandalman if you want to talk economics look up consumer surplus. Thats the difference between what a consumer pays for a product/service v. what the most they would pay for such product/service. This poll helps the pdga minimize consumer surplus, and thats about it.

There's not; and this is another borderline use of DISCussion, a PDGA resource, that damages the PDGA and may lead to the demise of the entire board.

I think you are over-reacting, Terry. No one thinks Gateway Dave speaks for the PDGA. He did not say anything that would suggest that doubling dues was your dumb idea or the Board's dumb idea.

Putting a disclaimer on the first post and thread title is fine if you think it needs a disclaimer. It doesn't, really, but so what. Suggesting that he is harming the PDGA or that the message board needs to go away because he would ask such a question is extreme.

So you think you can mollify me with a partial answer Mr. PDGA Executive Director Brian Hoeniger. Well, you're right. That'll definitely do me until the end of this paragraph.

I do have a minor beef with the reference to some rule I don't feel like looking up ... okay, I'll look it up, darn ... 804.05 Disqualification and Suspension...let's see, basically cheating, temper tantrums, plant abuse (unlikely) and violation of park rules (my pick). Yeah I'll go with smoking and drinking got those guys banned. Again I'm guessing. You want to know where rumors start? Right here.

The Pat Govang 10-year add-on would seem like an obvious choice for death-sentence advocates to appeal. Is there an appeals process?

An appeals process would be nice, aside from seeking an appeal from the Commisioner. Theo's too easy. It should be tougher. Obviously.

Oh yeah, the reference to another document is so PDGAish. Cut that out. It can't be too hard to write some simple documents -- simple but not for simpletons -- that take much of the onus off the PDGA. Put it all on the TD. Why not?

One of those guys was disciplined after allegations of stroke shaving. The other players in his group alleged that when he was keeping score several of his 3s were recorded as 2s. The TD tried to get the group to agree on what the correct scores were, but the player left the tournament without finally resolving the matter with the TD. So the TD disqualified the player and referred the matter to the disciplinary committee. I was the TD for that if I'm not making this up. I never knew the guy, could not pick him out at a line up, and would have to go through the TD reports to see which guy it was, so I'm not going to guess and defame someone.

I have no idea what the disciplinary committee concluded on the facts. I thought they suspended him for about six months but I don't remember.

So are you channeling Mikey or are you just as big of a goombah? Some of the questions you are asking make it clear that you've never read the the PDGA Constitution and cannot remember as far back as a little more than a year ago when Cam Todd had his big deal.

One thing we MUST remember, is that disc golfers as a general rule are a bunch of cheap, er uh, well they are cheap. Doubling the rate would result in a significant decrease in renewals.

Someone stated that the Open division would not decrease significantly, but I don't think that is true. Look at the current list of non-current open players. If you look at those 40 and under about 45% are not renewed in open divisions and about 47% in the amateur divisions. There are approximately 4 times as many amateurs as there are Open players.

The percentages of non-renewed players is close enough that there is no significant statistical difference. If Open players were more dedicated then there should be a large difference. If rates need to be raised, it would be better to let the membership, as a whole know that rates will have to be increased over the next couple of years, to meet rasing costs. Make the first increase only $5 next year and see if growth and renewal hold. With the comparison you should be able to determine "what the market will bear". A few subsequent increases could then be performed.

By the way, I would not renew if my rate went greater than the current rate plus 50%.


Sounds like you have some marketing experience and I really like what you said.By the way, I voted yes because by being a PDGA member you get more than $5.00 off of sanctioned events. We have this website with the ability to express our opinions and get a sence of unity. If we all work together, it would better our chances of getting what we really want.
__________________________________________________ ____
"Those that reject the path to enlightenment must be destoyed"

all I can say is if the player does not see what the get for being a PDGA member other than ratings and saving $5 at each tournament than how can you increase it.



I agree, those players definitely should educate themselves concerning the greater value and service the PDGA does for them and on their behalf to promote our sport. Stuff worth far far more than $55 could ever hope to cover. Maybe then they would be more inclined to lend a hand to that work and not expect it like service for some fee paid.

So you think you can mollify me with a partial answer Mr. PDGA Executive Director Brian Hoeniger. Well, you're right. That'll definitely do me until the end of this paragraph.

I do have a minor beef with the reference to some rule I don't feel like looking up ... okay, I'll look it up, darn ... 804.05 Disqualification and Suspension...let's see, basically cheating, temper tantrums, plant abuse (unlikely) and violation of park rules (my pick). Yeah I'll go with smoking and drinking got those guys banned. Again I'm guessing. You want to know where rumors start? Right here.

The Pat Govang 10-year add-on would seem like an obvious choice for death-sentence advocates to appeal. Is there an appeals process?

An appeals process would be nice, aside from seeking an appeal from the Commisioner. Theo's too easy. It should be tougher. Obviously.

Oh yeah, the reference to another document is so PDGAish. Cut that out. It can't be too hard to write some simple documents -- simple but not for simpletons -- that take much of the onus off the PDGA. Put it all on the TD. Why not?



I'm guessing of course, one can never be quite sure with Jason, but after putting his post through my Universal Translator this is what I got back:

"Thanks!"

P.S. Jerry, I note your surprise that the rate doesn't go up annually. I am a proponent of at least a small raise every year - you know, the old 'boil the frog' concept.



Equating PDGA members to frogs sitting in a pan of water is pretty silly, and slightly unprofessional. Besides we are not really likely to do this (http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.htm).

So, what was the purpose of this poll? Unless the poster, David McCormack, is in an altruistic guise and helping the PDGA collect data on what members see as 'value', which he is not, it seems as though all that has been accomplished is irritating some members who've been duped into thinking there is a real proposal to double dues.

There's not; and this is another borderline use of DISCussion, a PDGA resource, that damages the PDGA and may lead to the demise of the entire board.

So, what is the point, Dave?

.



Terry,
I appreciate your moderation of our posts on this board and making it clear that this poll is not coming from the pdga. Thanks!

I believe this sort of topic is what the discussion board is for?
The post is meant to be provocative but not to provoke.
My poll should have come with a list of what to do with this added revenue.

To make things clear, I am very much in favor of the pdga and support it in every way possible.
I believe the pdga needs more money to operate to provide more services that will benefit the organization and its' members!!!
In the future, things like ratings and rankings cannot be accomplished in a timely manner by volunteers alone.

I think there needs to be a permanant staff position developed for the work being done by Chuck, Nick and others.

This is the basis for the poll and the reasons for my suggestion of raising the dues.

Thanks again Terry for moderating this forum and to all of those who are responding to this poll.

The other night I was listening to AM talk radio and this great program came on. There are several organizations that regularly study UFO phenomenon, that accumulate huge amounts of data proving that we are being studied by alien invaders. They don't have to look far....

I've tried to inform the members of the PDGA in the past that indeed the BOD members and the Executive Director are agents for an alien race who's goal is to develop humans as a food source, but to no avail. Funny enough, they never try and delete my posts but I'm convinced that is because they have secret information that humans only pay attention if you include stats and information about a major sporting event.

Soooo, lets start this off right Seattle is going to lose to Pittsburgh in the Super bowl! It hurts to say it but one must face facts. Seattle Professional Teams Choke under pressure.

Now that I have your full attention, I want to point out the great service that Jason is providing here. If it weren't for Jason, no one would ever question the dastardly goals of the PDGA BOD, and dare I say his name.... Brian. Jason repeatedly has the strength of character to come on here and try and shed light on the activities of the BOD and.... Brian who are using our funds to collect data on the proper way to fatten up humans as a food source.

You doubt the truth of this? Take a look at the evidence, since the the inception of the PDGA, the weight of the average American has gone up from 145 lbs to 175 lbs. If that isn't enough for you, what is the PDGA doing with all that money? Yep, they're franchising MacDonalds!

I know it is difficult to accept but the evidence is there for the taking. It turns out the first alien visitors were in fact the Beattles. Yes, I know that is hard to believe but this is an important point! All alien transmissions have to be hidden in standardized medium. In the case of the Beattles, they used records. Any alien agent could pick up a Beattles' record and yep, you guessed it, play it backwards to get their message to the home world.

It turns out that the PDGA is using a similar strategy. You know those monthly radio broadcasts? Uh-huh, play one backwards some time. Be careful though. Every now and then they hide a subliminal message in there and it is very easy to get brainwashed. The solution is very easy, wrap your head in tinfoil first and you'll be fine.

Well, that is it for now, the X-files is coming on and I have to end here, but just remember, only by unifying against this threat can we survive.

Live long and prosper!

Willie,
You hit it on the head, of course players will say no to more money, especially if they do not know what it is for.
The fact that nearly 50% would pay double with no questions asked and without even knowing why is a great barometer of what can be charged.

The current results from the poll would not even be close to the actual decrease in membership.
If we get close to 50/50 with no explanation, I'm sure we can get close to 90% approval with a well layed out plan.
I like the idea of at least a $100.00 for pros $75 for advanced, $50 for am and maybe $35 for recreational.

One of the reason I started the poll was after hearing that the per tournament fees were doubled to $4 per player from $2,thats were I got the "Doubling the dues" suggestion.
On hinesight I should have spelled out the reasons for the increase, but I prefer the knee jerk reactions and the vagueness of the poll raises more opportunity for a wider range of discussion.

The lack of renewels at this point is mostly due to the fact that players sign up right before or at their first pdga event of the year!
I guarantee by the end of the year there willbe an increase in the total number of players who sign up for the pdga compared to last year.
I believe one of the reasons for a few of the bigger tournaments to not sanction there events is due to the fact that the pdga is losing ground and some credibility. One of the big reason has to be lack of funds to spread its wings and improve its product.
There is a large group of hard core disc golfers out there and more everyday, strike while the iron is hot is my motto.
If the PDGA doesnt change it course some, nore and more events will become non sanctioned, especially the bigger ones!
This poll and subsequent posts should be a wake up call!

Terry and Brian,
The reason I started the thread here is that I think the extra money should go to programs like player rankings/ratings.
If you want to move it somewhere else be my guest!
" Terry Check you PM"

Dont sell the value of a pdga membership so short, it is a well worth while orginization to belong to and the $55 per year price is about the same as a hot date or a night out with the boys. Some guys are even paying $55 for 1 disc.

I pay $75 for my nephew just to park his truck on the school lot, $1,300 a year for direct TV, $240 at Block buster another $200 or so at the movie Theater, maybe $500.00 a year to see live bands. You get the point.
The $55 I spend on the pdga membership and extra $20 for the 10 events I atteneded is by far my best value, besides I want to see the PDGA grow in my lifetime :D

P.S. Jerry, I note your surprise that the rate doesn't go up annually. I am a proponent of at least a small raise every year - you know, the old 'boil the frog' concept.



Equating PDGA members to frogs sitting in a pan of water is pretty silly, and slightly unprofessional. Besides we are not really likely to do this (http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.htm).



I knew this was coming; I almost ended with: "Now, I did not call PDGA members frogs." Or, "What's wrong with frogs, I used to be one: Underwater Demolition Team 13 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vietnam-US-Navy-Underwater-Demolition-Tm-13-Hand-Patch_W0QQitemZ6591550377QQcategoryZ104015QQssPage NameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)." :)

Absolutely, I apologize to Dave for misreading his intentions. When I saw that my buddy, Jim Daniels, had misunderstood and thought there was a real proposal, I guess I became human for a moment. (We can do that, you know, Lyle.) Sorry, Dave.

There is a point in discussions of value/cost and perceived value/cost. I, personally, would pay more for my Ace Club membership. I would have joined the Eagle Club except my wife would notice the $2,000 check stub.

One of the biggest issues we have is that the economic spread among our members is so large. (One of the reasons I like disc golf so much!) There are folks, like me, who can sign up for that disc golf cruise next winter without having to worry about dollars. (Been there, though: My wife and I would spend a week, sometimes, just staring at a $20 bill and wondering where to best spend it, when our kids were little not so long ago.) We also have people for who that $20 is a big deal, still.

How do you set a price structure that extracts from each what such a diverse economic group of individuals can afford? Setting the price at the lowest end deprives the organization of working capital. Setting it too high, discourages folks with less money.

At the end of the day, I support the PDGA (if only through paying membership dues and playing in numerous PDGA-sanctioned events) because:

The PDGA has done more to lend credibility and respectability to our sport than any other group, organization, or individual.

Could more be done to increase the exposure and credibility of our sport? Absolutely. And every single one of you is free to step up and give it a shot. But please, if you decide to do so, don't make tearing down or running down the PDGA part of your business model.

You know what would go further towards increasing the credibility and respectability of disc golf to sponsors, parks departments, investors, and partners? If everybody would leave the dope at home when you head out to the disc golf course.

Oh, you say you don't want that much respectability or credibility --- that that is asking too much? Then you really shouldn't open your trap about what the PDGA is doing.

And don't give me the "but skateboarders adn X-gamers smoke dope, and they get major sponsorship and television air time" argument, either. I've been to the winter X-games, and I didn't see a single contestant at the event smoking dope out in the open. On the other hand, I've never played a round of disc golf where I didn't see numerous people openly and brazenly (and illegally, let's not forget) smoking away.

Oh, and don't litter when you play. And if you do see litter, pick it up. Dress nicely when you play in a sanctioned tournament. Encourage others to play the sport. Be courteous and kind to other park users and spectators; they might not be aware that they are on a disc golf course, and yelling at them does damage to our credibility.

Really, at the end of the day, if you want to blame someone for the lack of growth, credibility, sponsorship, and respectability in our sport --- we are each individually more at fault than the scapegoat some are trying to make of the PDGA.

That's my sermonizing and ranting for the day. Let the flaming begin in defense of your dope smoking. Maybe you can come up with some good justifications for why you beat your wife while you're at it, too.

add in "leave your beer/alcohol at home too" and i'm with you. It is every bit as much a drug as pot and it too harms public perception of our sport.

Absolutely, I apologize to Dave for misreading his intentions. When I saw that my buddy, Jim Daniels, had misunderstood and thought there was a real proposal, I guess I became human for a moment. (We can do that, you know, Lyle.) Sorry, Dave.



Ah-Ha, I knew it! It was so much easier when they just wore rubber masks!

On a different note, I think Terry's take on this is important. If you double the fees I'm going to step up and pay. My perceived value received has nothing to do with tournament discounts, or magazines, but is based on being a member of the organization. I'd pay even if I didn't get the nifty laminated card or the cool stickers!

However, having run the membership of the HFDS for the past year, I can tell you that local players, most of whom are well above the poverty line, weren't even willing to reup their spouses last year at the cost of $5 additional fees. Some of these members are highly active in the club.

The reality is that despite the fact that our economy has remained relatively robust, there is a huge perception that we (Americans) aren't doing that well. I suspect that even with a good explanation, you will find that fewer players would reup at a significantly higher cost. That doesn't even address the number of low income players who have to watch every dime (or at least feel they have to). I suspect that prior to 2000 you could have done this and had no problem; now it would be much more difficult.

There's not; and this is another borderline use of DISCussion, a PDGA resource, that damages the PDGA and may lead to the demise of the entire board.

I think you are over-reacting, Terry. No one thinks Gateway Dave speaks for the PDGA. He did not say anything that would suggest that doubling dues was your dumb idea or the Board's dumb idea.

Putting a disclaimer on the first post and thread title is fine if you think it needs a disclaimer. It doesn't, really, but so what. Suggesting that he is harming the PDGA or that the message board needs to go away because he would ask such a question is extreme.



Bruce, as you will read further down the thread, I have sincerely apologized to Dave for misreading his intentions.

However, I have not misread that some of the posters in this thread assumed (and some still assume, read the post above yours) that this is a real, official proposal. Even the very bright friend-in-common that we have in Michigan, Jim Daniels, took it for real. He said: "I voted no. Why? Because you did not tell me what you intended to do with that extra money. If there was no particular benefit for the "average" PDGA dues payer, why would he/she sign up for double the cost. You might actually lose half the members effectively raising no extra money." (You and I know JD, that was not a happy JD.) And for every poster who made that assumption, I expect there has been some multiple of readers who also did.

This *type* of thing can pose a threat to DISCussion, because there are many members (not just some board members, I know because I hear from them via PM and email) who think that the DISCussion feature is more trouble than it is worth. (I am not one of them.)

How many members and nonmembers now have a vague feeling (or in some circumstances a certainty) that the PDGA is thinking about doubling their dues? I don't know, but I do know there are some. That's not a good thing for the PDGA.

Terry,
Thanks for the apology, as I stand firm in my convictions, my support of the pdga is meaningful and gives me gratification.

Is it true players fees are going "<font color="red"> </font>" from $2 to $4 for each event or is this only at A tiers?

It�s interesting to compare our benefits and membership levels with other organizations and associations.

Maybe some motivated person could make a matrix and do a comparison for us on this thread. I looked up a few and found we are comparable or even lower in our membership dues.

For Lacrosse:
http://www.uslacrosse.org/membership/levels.phtml

Skiing and snowboarding � make sure you scroll down to view all:
http://www.ussa.org/PublishingFolder/default_4710.htm

Surfing � �. the fees on this one are high:
http://www.isasurf.org/index.php?page=19&subpage=25

Note the magazine is extra on this one � Table Tennis:
http://www.usatt.org/membership/index.shtml

And we are even about the same as the National Rifle Association!
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

Is it true players fees are going from $2 to $4 for each event or is this only at A tiers?



No change in this, this year, unless something has slipped by me. Fees remain, as they have been for a couple of years I think:

D-Tier = $2
C-Tier = $2
B-Tier = $3
A-Tier = $4
NT = $5

I pay less than double that for satellite radio, Hysell. Of course, I own the second unit in the family, so it's only like $77 a year.

1st unit is $12.99/month. Each additional is $6.99/month. I have 3 units. Do the math.

I got satellite radio this year...and now I am tapped out. So, for the first time since 1998 I didn't renew right away, and since I only play 1 tourney per year...I don't see the need to spend even $40,- at this point for a membership.

I would spend $25,- (hey I am still rated recreational)...maybe the PDGA could offer a membership without the mag. I don't even check this message board anymore (ok, I'll check once/month at this point)...since every thread last year was dominated by Nick yelling @ somebody....it got old.

If everybody would leave the dope at home when you head out to the disc golf course.



I never exhaled!!!!!!

And I support the PDGA 100% and if I ever win the lotto 10% goes to the PDGA. Thats a promise
/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


:cool:

So are you channeling Mikey or are you just as big of a goombah? Some of the questions you are asking make it clear that you've never read the the PDGA Constitution and cannot remember as far back as a little more than a year ago when Cam Todd had his big deal.



I admire Mikey and am just as big a goombah, if by goombah you mean goofball and/or [I'm a potty-mouth!].

The Cam Todd incident actually went down in my backyard. The PDGA's plan was to have Drew Smith, the PDGA's State Rep, and me, receive their certified letters -- actually, the same certified letter -- officially addressed from the PDGA to Cam. The plan was to wait till the end of the tournament. I actually agreed to wait till the end of the tournament, but later, after prying the document's primary message -- Cam You're Banned -- from PDGA officials, Drew and I decided to tell Cam BEFORE the tournament. I feel we made the right decision, since it would have felt crappy having a guest and keeping such a bad secret for a whole weekend of fake friendliness, knowing the whole time the guy had the Sword of Damacles hanging headward.

It was August of 2004. After that, the PDGA eased up on the suspension to allow Cam to go to the USDGC, where he came in second. Right? He had to issue a public apology that had a touch of defiance, and he had to donate some or all winnings to a charity. I'm thinking Lukemia but please correct me here. Not sure what the charity was, just that it wasn't exactly Cam's idea to donate to it. Soon after he quit playing disc golf as far as tournament series are concerned, or maybe even completely. Don't know if he's resumed yet or plans to resume. It's a shame is what it is.

The guy's a world champion, and he slept in our house! If you've seen the 2004 MSDGC there's a section just with him breaking the course record at a Maple Hill long course that doesn't quite exist anymore. Now it's longer.

He was feisty, too, and fascinating to talk with. He came out to Maple Hill on Sunday at lunch and pointed out to Steve that the tees had little rocks on them -- from banch gravel working its way upward through a half inch of stonedust. Can't throw off tees with little rocks. Steve and Dave Boliver ran out and each raked the little stones off nine tees, and Cam was blown away. "Thank you," he said.

There's a lot of fond memories associated with running a tournament and having Steve relate that story to me is one of them.

Speaking of running tournaments, I have a recurring nightmare. There's of course the USUAL nightmare, the one you had and maybe still have about missing an entire semester and failing lots of courses cause you can't find the biology building and you'r not in the right state anyway, except now you're at the wrong course and you don't have the scoreport, and Billy Mac is laughing. It gets weird, but not that dream. This is a real dream: forgetting to sign people up who give you money. I keep waiting for that guy, the guy who comes up and says, the day of the tournament, how come I'm not listed? Yowza. I'm terrified of that guy. Hey, we keep messing up at increasingly higher levels. So we got that going. Screwing up at the highest level. I like it.

As far as reading the constitution, I've read it, but I can't remember it now. I'll have to read it AGAIN to keep up with the conversation. Man I don't like reading PDGA material, it's so wordy and refers to other documents that aren't handy. Heck with that. Rewrite everything to reflect reality. Remember you heard it here folks.

Remember you heard it here folks.

Yep. Here. On the PDGA DISCussion board. Pretty kul, eh? Thanks, Jason. :grin:

However, I have not misread that some of the posters in this thread assumed (and some still assume, read the post above yours) that this is a real, official proposal. Even the very bright friend-in-common that we have in Michigan, Jim Daniels, took it for real. He said: "I voted no. Why? Because you did not tell me what you intended to do with that extra money. If there was no particular benefit for the "average" PDGA dues payer, why would he/she sign up for double the cost. You might actually lose half the members effectively raising no extra money." (You and I know JD, that was not a happy JD.) And for every poster who made that assumption, I expect there has been some multiple of readers who also did.

<font color="blue"> Terry, i don't think he mistook this for a PDGA proposal i think he was telling David why he voted no. iow, he would want to hear what was going to be done with the $ before he'd even consider voting yes. </font>

This *type* of thing can pose a threat to DISCussion, because there are many members (not just some board members, I know because I hear from them via PM and email) who think that the DISCussion feature is more trouble than it is worth. (I am not one of them.)

<font color="blue"> it might be easier to not say anything nor to make any unpopular decisions, but true leadership has to be willing to what is best, not what is most popular. if you go to a place like the Chicago Cubs message board (mlb.com) you will find all sorts of objectionable posts. but the board is good for fans and there is a lot there that is good. it wouldn't be wise to throw the baby out with the bathwater </font>

How many members and nonmembers now have a vague feeling (or in some circumstances a certainty) that the PDGA is thinking about doubling their dues? I don't know, but I do know there are some. That's not a good thing for the PDGA.



<font color="blue"> only members who are jumping to conclusions and not reading carefully. It seems clear to me that David M. cares a great deal about the future of disc golf and wants the PDGA to be successful. he titled the thread: If your pdga dues were doubled would you sign up next year? From what i've read, his proposal seemed to me to grow out of his feeling that Chuck (and others) should be paid for their work. (even though he disagrees with some of Chuck's putting models)

Besides, 60% voted no to the poll (i am one of the no voters). Even if one were to mistake the poll as originating with a PDGA officer, it looks good that it is trying to gauge membership opinion of the idea rather than just implement such a change. </font>

Thanks Rob,
I do make the mistake of assuming too much at times :confused:
I have the feeling the pdga board members are getting a bit paranoid. Having large events decide to not sanction this year could be making the board nervous about the future of the orginization.
The pdga is putting out a good product and we shouldnt be afraid to charge what its worth, besides we need the extra money.
I dont think even two hundred a year will scare off any real pro's. If they dont want to pay two hundred a year than maybe they dont really want to have a pro tour and can pay $55 and stay in the advanced.

I have never asked anyone to turn pro and probably never will, as I feel being a top level amatuer disc golfer should be considered something positive.
It's really a shame the way we treat our advanced ams by calling them sandbaggers and making them feel guilty when they do well at events :(
I had already been playing disc golf for 8 years by the time we got our first basket course in 1980, so I never got a chance to play am. No one ever had to pressure me to move up, but I've seen tons of players who were that have come and gone since turning pro.

Maybe we should start a "where are they now thread"


If I didnt own a disc golf company I would certainly run for a position on the board. ( hopefully a paid one) :D

If i am reading the ratings distribution chart (http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf/ratingdistribution_files/sheet002.htm) Pat was kind enough to create for us, only about 700 of our 8000 members are rated 970 or above (the ones who would have least reason to oppose a doubling of their entry fees).

If there were only a way to get Gatorade or Snickers to pay to be "an official sponsor of the PDGA" maybe we could get more revenue that way :D

my opposition to a fee increase is mainly an economic one -- if i won the lottery i would give plenty of money to the PDGA and would hold a few low entry fee/high pay-out tourneys at which the TD's would be well-paid for their work :D

maybe we could find ways to incentivize more monetary contributions to the PDGA by giving out special items to donors like autographed discs... or maybe the PDGA could sell PDGA-stamped CFR discs (one from each of the big three disc manufacturer companies) with an upcharge -- the money from which would go to the PDGA? just brainstorming -- maybe there are better ideas out there...?

Jason got a major company (glacieu) to sponsor his tournament, maybe we should ask for his guidence. (no this is not the end of the world, its just a good idea)

I believe one of the reasons for a few of the bigger tournaments to not sanction there events is due to the fact that the pdga is losing ground and some credibility. One of the big reason has to be lack of funds to spread its wings and improve its product.
There is a large group of hard core disc golfers out there and more everyday, strike while the iron is hot is my motto.
If the PDGA doesnt change it course some, nore and more events will become non sanctioned, especially the bigger ones!
This poll and subsequent posts should be a wake up call!




Agreed...This seems to be the trend of more and more Pro Discgolfers....




And don't give me the "but skateboarders adn X-gamers smoke dope, and they get major sponsorship and television air time" argument, either. I've been to the winter X-games, and I didn't see a single contestant at the event smoking dope out in the open. On the other hand, I've never played a round of disc golf where I didn't see numerous people openly and brazenly (and illegally, let's not forget) smoking away.

Oh, and don't litter when you play. And if you do see litter, pick it up. Dress nicely when you play in a sanctioned tournament. Encourage others to play the sport. Be courteous and kind to other park users and spectators; they might not be aware that they are on a disc golf course, and yelling at them does damage to our credibility.

Really, at the end of the day, if you want to blame someone for the lack of growth, credibility, sponsorship, and respectability in our sport --- we are each individually more at fault than the scapegoat some are trying to make of the PDGA.




Disagreed......Todays discgolfers are more frequently from an athletic background. Yesterdays discgolfers are burnouts from the 70's, it seems to me.

Jason got a major company (glacieu) to sponsor his tournament, maybe we should ask for his guidence. (no this is not the end of the world, its just a good idea)



Will, that was all Steve Dodge, but I did have a good seat for observing the process. It happened gradually, one year at a time, and we continue to nurture that relationship.

There's a lot of talk on frisbee discussion pages about bad behavior like herb on the course scaring big sponsors away, but don't we first have to have some sort of relationship with said imaginary sponsors in order for us to turn them off?

It seems the dream of a big sponsor materializing spontaneously is really a dream. The Glaceau - Marshall Street relationship took a lot of effort and we continue to find new ways to add to that relationship and, obviously, increase the level of sponsorship while also increasing and improving what the sponsor gets out of it.

The main thing is creating something that has value for sponsors. And while a disc golf tournament with 144 players and a pot of $25,000 seems like a big deal to us, we have to accept reality that it really is not a big deal at all, and that we have a long road ahead of us.

Thanks to Gateway Dave for letting us abuse his thread beyond all recognition. Within its many posts, there were valuable nuggets worth considering, and a lot of interesting ideas. So it's only appropriate that it's in the kind of place where pretty much all PDGA information can be found -- in an obscure corner where most people won't look, buried in way too many words for the average person to sift through. Ha ha.

I would like to formally give steve dodge my apology for not recognizing him as such a key part of the marshall street tournament, he supported me throughout the msdgc and continues to do so, and I feel bad i didnt think to add him in there, sorry steve I was so caught up in suggesting the pdga listen to jason i was thinking.

or maybe the PDGA could sell PDGA-stamped CFR discs (one from each of the big three disc manufacturer companies) with an upcharge -- the money from which would go to the PDGA? just brainstorming -- maybe there are better ideas out there...?



This is an idea I have been hitting on for some time when talking about ways the PDGA could hit on many of requests people have been asking of them:
-Sport Awareness and Promotion
-Tournament preperationa and readiness
-Added value to tournaments for sanctioning

Imagine This: PDGA Majors, NT Tour and various larger A-Tiers

The PDGA trailer (one of those half storage, half RV so they can sleep in the trailer and save money, and act as park security) sits at the tournament main course Wed through the tournament. The awning is down and a PDGA representative sits at the course all afternoon for several days giving out disc golf materials and tournament finals flyers to all of recreational and casual golfers. They sell PDGA and Tournament fundraising plastic, take entries for the tournament, help prep and mark the course properly and consistantly.
The PDGA Tour pros come in and give a free clinic on the day before the event instead of playing a Pro-Am event. (most pros take the day before off to rest, but would be willing to do the clinic for minor comensation[maybe player sponsor driven])

-Will cost a good chunk to get started and much ongoing cost.
+Merch may help defer much of the ongoing costs
+Tons of positive PDGA potential growth
+Big tournament added value for being PDGA sanctioned
+Courses get marked and prepped ahead of night before event

This idea was kicked around at one point, but as my understanding is LYNX (PDGA fullfillment) shot them a pie high in the sky offer and turned everyone off, not that it would be an inexpensive venture.

You gotta spend money to make money and this idea sure would go a long way on a lot of different fronts the PDGA is dealing with.

I would much rather pay more dues to see this type of thing happen than spend any extra money on rating who is better than whom.

this is similar to what many have been saying about the pdga. in short, the tour needs to be the pdga (barring the administrative requirements.) if the fees were to be doubled i'd be out. i have a difficult time justifying the expense as it is.

ADDED MATERIAL: RUMOR HAS IT--(i should have added this originally. for the record, any time i had ever spoken to any one about this it had always been as a RUMOR HAS IT type thing.)

the pdga had the opportunity to develop a serious relationship with a serious sponsor at worlds this year and turned them down. this particular relationship would have been especially beneficial to a tour.

it's high time for some tough love for our touring pros. it shouldn't be enough to travel and play. serious sponsorship requires a commitment from a national brand. one that benefits from disc golf in california or virginia. local tds shouldn't have to scrounge up cash from local businesses to provide $$$$ to guys from 8 states away...doesn't make sense.

additionally, like todd branch did a few years back, there needs to be a direct link to the tour via the internet. it needs a full-time videographer, a driver/go-fer/charming table guy as you say. this should come from the tour and should be supported by the pdga. i want dave gentry to go on tour as a pdga employee! (not sure what he would think about this.)

hire kevin mcg who produces a disc golf show locally here and put him on tour. market the heck out of the dvd. (please, leave the collared shirt, ball-golf clones out of it.) the dvd would be a great sell to national sponsors. forget actual footage, have 20-30 takes in order to see the chains splash.

the pdga and the touring guys need to merge, develop a working relationship, create a product, sell the sport, etc.

or maybe the PDGA could sell PDGA-stamped CFR discs (one from each of the big three disc manufacturer companies) with an upcharge -- the money from which would go to the PDGA? just brainstorming -- maybe there are better ideas out there...?



This is an idea I have been hitting on for some time when talking about ways the PDGA could hit on many of requests people have been asking of them:
-Sport Awareness and Promotion
-Tournament preperationa and readiness
-Added value to tournaments for sanctioning

Imagine This: PDGA Majors, NT Tour and various larger A-Tiers

The PDGA trailer (one of those half storage, half RV so they can sleep in the trailer and save money, and act as park security) sits at the tournament main course Wed through the tournament. The awning is down and a PDGA representative sits at the course all afternoon for several days giving out disc golf materials and tournament finals flyers to all of recreational and casual golfers. They sell PDGA and Tournament fundraising plastic, take entries for the tournament, help prep and mark the course properly and consistantly.
The PDGA Tour pros come in and give a free clinic on the day before the event instead of playing a Pro-Am event. (most pros take the day before off to rest, but would be willing to do the clinic for minor comensation[maybe player sponsor driven])

-Will cost a good chunk to get started and much ongoing cost.
+Merch may help defer much of the ongoing costs
+Tons of positive PDGA potential growth
+Big tournament added value for being PDGA sanctioned
+Courses get marked and prepped ahead of night before event

This idea was kicked around at one point, but as my understanding is LYNX (PDGA fullfillment) shot them a pie high in the sky offer and turned everyone off, not that it would be an inexpensive venture.

You gotta spend money to make money and this idea sure would go a long way on a lot of different fronts the PDGA is dealing with.

I would much rather pay more dues to see this type of thing happen than spend any extra money on rating who is better than whom.



Just let me know where to send my resume! If this dosent sound like a dream job, I guess I dont know what does! Imagine being able to travel the country seeing all you can see....calling one of the local clubs of the city your passing through to get to the next NT and stopping in for a local monthly/mini and then moving on. Sounds great......now all I need is the start up costs covered and away I go!

the pdga had the opportunity to develop a serious relationship with a serious sponsor at worlds this year and turned them down. this particular relationship would have been especially beneficial to a tour.



Explain this statement, as I had heard the same thing, but was told that was not the case at all.

--I don't think you meant it that way, but your statement about tough love and shouldn't have to raise money for out of state touring players? We sign a heck of a lot of autographs and hear how great it is that we are there or can take the time to help someones game. Some touring players are better PR than others, but not a reason to not cater to the group.

It would be nice to get some footage of the NT streaming onlinve via the PDGA or a DVD. Take $ raised from DVD's & add it to the NT the next year.

Marshall St by far has the best footage of disc golf. They have something going there!

Friends,
First...I don't who started it or when they said it, BUT the PDGA did NOT thwart any form of sponsorship during the '05 Pro Worlds in Allentown. I repeat...the PDGA did NOT stop any corporate sponsorship from occuring at the '05 Pro Worlds.

I have heard this from only ONE other disc golfer, though it must have been percolating around amongst tour players for a while. Funny though, only ONE disc golfer ever asked me about it! Wow! You figure the tournament director of the Worlds would hear something about this from more than one dg'er. Unfortunately, that was not the case, which might speak to some internal operations that the disc golf "community" should address.

All who read this, should know this...I found nothing but genuine support (financially, technically, and spiritually) from the PDGA. Clearly, the PDGA is an easy target here, but we should know the facts before making such accusations. One of the great things about the PDGA is that we are small enough for you to make a phone call and find out what's really going on! And if the buffer of a keyboard is more comfortable, e-mail the PDGA directly, they will get back to you.

I repeat...the PDGA did NOT get in the way of any corporate sponsorship for the '05 Pro Worlds in Allentown! Please make sure to spread the word to anyone who has said differently.

John Duesler
current PDGA Marketing Director

p.s. I like the goals that are stated in the thread (re: sponsorship), but there are some things that need to happen before big sponsorship will happen. We are working on them right now. Thanks.


---------------------

i'm sort of touching upon mittenz opinion toward so-called lazy tds. seems to me that less emphasis should be placed on tds to garner sponsorship and more on the tour itself (and touring players) who will benefit more from the relationship (financially speaking). plus, it would alleviate the stress of trying to convince a local deli owner that marketing to some dude from florida is a good investment.

john i assumed the sponsorship thing was common knowledge-- having spoken to those close to the pdga and your co-td for worlds about the issue. i was trying to express that this particular sponsor would be ideal for a tour...for obvious reasons. if it is a secret, i'm sorry. if it never happened then i'm hallucinating past conversations.

to me, the tour has more to offer the pdga membership as a whole than other more localized pork projects.

mitch, i'm just busting your chops.

i was trying to express that this particular sponsor would be ideal for a tour...for obvious reasons.


This is the kind of statement that causes problems in the disc golf community. If you have something to say, then say it. If you don't have anything to say, what is the point in bringing something up and alluding to some secret knowledge without saying anything?

It's like saying, "At this A-tier once, a well known touring pro was having a tantrum." Now people start making assumptions about what you are talking about, and innocent people are assumend guilty.

Just spill the beans as you know them or don't bring it up.

Just my opinion.

i've been put in the position of either being a complete liar or stepping on toes. why should i spread a false rumor? why does it matter what i say if it is just a rumor? should we start a poll?

if john doesn't mind i'd be happy to talk to you or any one else about it. even false, it is an interesting scenario and as the pdga is a players organization, it should be discussed if it ever comes up in the future. john?

If you say who it was then John and anybody else in the know can specifically deny the allegation.

When you say "some sponsor that would be perfect", it can't be refuted like that. John came on and said "No sponsor was turned away by the PDGA".

But since you didn't say who, the perception left is that it still might have happened.


This is not an official statement. It's just me posting my opinions like I frequently do.

Interesting how we seem to spend more time talking about how we say something than about what we say.

Summation of past few posts:
"The PDGA turned down a major sponsor for the 2005 Worlds."
"No they didn't."
"Oops!"
"..."
:D

What if an org.(a small one) put together a "work a day" plan that would give touring pros a days work in the NT town they came to play the event in.....The pro keeps say 70% and the rest donated to purse and or org. that put it together.....This would encourage more people to take a year and tour.

I think that the idea of clinics would be great, I know that when I first started playing I would have loved to get advice and meet some of the touring pro. Also the statement that was negative about touring pros, this past may i ventured down to maryland for the breeze and treeze as an AM and won both tournaments and I was greeted with the complete opposite feelings. All the guys were excited to meet a young kid who was trying to get around and improve his game and the td's were willing to give me plastic instead of a bike i had one. I was not a famous player and no1 knew me but they treated me like the next ken climo, so I would think when he travels there he gets treated with even more gratiuity. So u may be upset that touring pros are taking money u think should be earning, but put the practice in beat them with ur game.

Interesting how we seem to spend more time talking about how we say something than about what we say.

Summation of past few posts:
"The PDGA turned down a major sponsor for the 2005 Worlds."
"No they didn't."
"Oops!"
"..."
:D



I never would have figured you for one that appreciates brevity. :D

i think you misinterpreted what i said about touring pros and i'm positive i wasn't as clear as i should have been. i consider the touring pros as a wasted resource--not as someone who comes and takes my money. lord knows i've done my share of donating and quite happily at that.

why not offer the touring guys jobs? give them a video camera and require so many hours of tape a week. make them responsible for recruiting new members, whatever. meanwhile, support their efforts. kind of like the way a circus runs. performers perform, but they also have to take down tents, shovel the [I'm a potty-mouth!], etc. give them responsibilities that equate into modest per diems or something.

the sponsorship should travel with the circus. right now, the hosts are responsible for that and to me it doesn't make much sense. our lack of spectators would be far outweighed by a creative, enjoyable tour dvd that lasts, is spread to others and prominently displays the sponsor.

my 10-12 years in the pdga hasn't witnessed an appreciative change in our tournaments and overall growth. i know someone will come up with some numbers to refute that but i'm speaking from personal experience. it's frustrating. i'm a grassroots guy. to me an engaging tour would bring out the new players and an action-packed dvd would enhance it further. don't look outside the pdga for expensive video companies etc (can you say sportsloop?) use the resources we have here...yeti for example.

Good ideas...I like it....The only problem is....How do you film when you have to practice or go broke...and then during toueney play. You will more than likely get warned by the other players for delay and or distraction....I like the idea.
What about...as part of the TD responsibility(for A tier and NT), he has to provide a volunteer to film. Follow hometown group first round, and then the leader group all the rounds afterwards. the camera could be mailed to the next NT town(td)....The tapes when full, could be sent to a (rewarded) volunteer who can rough edit the tapes....Anyone wanna build on this....

...i consider the touring pros as a wasted resource...

except between the 2 minute horn and the turning in of the card, of course :D

Some of the things we have done over the last 15 years to promote and grow the sport in Des Moines:

We�ve stood in parking lots of sporting goods stores with a couple of temp baskets and a bunch of putters and ask people to give it a try as they walk by and tell them about the sport and where they can play. And we gave them disc golf handouts we created.

Employees at the local deli where I eat lunch knows I play disc golf. One of the gals who worked there said her husband in charge of their Knights of Columbus church group wanted the group to learn to play disc golf. I asked one of our local ams, Shane Stewart, and one of our local pros, Jason Neifert, if they could put on clinic. They did and it was a huge success. And, other various groups have contacted us over the years to put on clinics for them. And our Am and Pro guys and gals give the clinics!! The DSM Park and Rec. gives out our club information so groups can call us to ask.

We set up a very short three hole course at neighborhood association picnics. We give each person (and kid!) who plays the course a raffle ticket each time they complete the course. And then we do the drawing and give our discs and John Houck�s Learn to Play Disc Golf videos to the winners.

Last summer we set up disc golf baskets in front of our Triple A Iowa Cubs baseball game and had all the kids give it a try before they walked into the game.

Our guys have also given many disc golf demonstrations and clinics over the years to local boy scouts.

We�ve given 3-4 hour clinics through the various Parks and Recs. departments.

We give out PDGA rule books as prizes to the Rec players at our tournaments. At last year�s DSM Open, we gave out them out to the first ten places in the Recreational Men�s division.

The club�s next big initiative is the indoor DSM Kidsfest at the Convention Center in March. We�re having a booth for three days next to the DSM Park and Recs. We�re going to feature a couple of baskets, mini baskets, and mini�s and putters. They expect over 50,000 kids to come to the event over the weekend. We even get to get on the main stage for two half hour spots.

We�ve been fortunate over the years to have a few of the touring pros give excellent clinics as well. We asked them before they came to town for our tournaments and they graciously agreed.

We have been successful being proactive ourselves as a club to grow local awareness and participation of the sport, and to fund raise for and install our courses- and not have to depend on the touring pros or the PDGA to do it for us.

Wow! I wish I had the time, and money to do something like that!
That's awesome! Keep it up!

I am sxruprised by how mant people have posted that they would not rejoin, that is disheartening.

I am sxruprised by how mant people have posted that they would not rejoin, that is disheartening.



It is, but understandable. Lyle made a good point about organizational value versus member benefits:


My perceived value received has nothing to do with tournament discounts, or magazines, but is based on being a member of the organization. I'd pay even if I didn't get the nifty laminated card or the cool stickers!



I'm in the same boat, and I think many others are too: we pay the $55 membership fee to support our national organization and what the PDGA does for the sport of disc golf, not for what they do for us. Hypothetically, if the yearly fee doubles to $110 which is a much bigger hit to the wallet, I think most people would start to re-think that altruistic policy.

I am sxruprised by how mant people have posted that they would not rejoin, that is disheartening.



Don't let it be. Even *without* increases, many professional associations have huge annual turnovers in memberships as members change jobs, lose jobs, etc.

My own employer is a 41-year-old (just slightly older than the Super Bowl) professional association with a $4M budget and 20 staff, but we experience about the same percentage of lost members annually as the PDGA does. (And we don't grow as fast as the PDGA does in absolute numbers, either. I wish we did.)

It is sad to lose people, but it's inevitable, just like water running downhill.

We might even be better off with doubled dues, but I am not going to propose it and no one has, so that anxiety is moot.

I am sxruprised by how mant people have posted that they would not rejoin, that is disheartening.



Don't let it be. Even *without* increases, many professional associations have huge annual turnovers in memberships as members change jobs, lose jobs, etc.

My own employer is a 41-year-old (just slightly older than the Super Bowl) professional association with a $4M budget and 20 staff, but we experience about the same percentage of lost members annually as the PDGA does. (And we don't grow as fast as the PDGA does in absolute numbers, either. I wish we did.)

It is sad to lose people, but it's inevitable, just like water running downhill.

We might even be better off with doubled dues, but I am not going to propose it and no one has, so that anxiety is moot.



:eek: Double Dues !!!!! I already donate $ 150.00 per year !!! :D

I would rejoin because I dont go to many pdga tournaments I have only been to 2 and then going to Bowling Green and Am Worlds that makes 4 but if I had more in my location (Bay St. Louis Mississippi) and them not all be 8 hours+ away then i might sign up

I would still Join, but then I also already pay $150 per year anyways. (I hope to pay the Eagle club in a few years)

NO , I would not renew if dues doubled!!

The gap is getting smaller.
I may to put together another poll, this time explaining what the money will be used for!

I would still Join, but then I also already pay $150 per year anyways. (I hope to pay the Eagle club in a few years)



I agree............................joining the Eagle club would end the debate of yearly dues !!!!! :eek:

I'm a Ace Club member as this is as much as I can afford out of pocket. Doubling this fee would be $ 300.00 :eek:

I'm not sure if I'll be still playing 20 years from now. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

But I know some where even $ 50.00 is alot of money.

Some Disc Golfers I know are not loaded with cash and it's tough for them not to participate in events !!!!!

Soon , Disc Golf tournaments will only be for those who can afford to participate in them.

It's getting cheaper. Listen, even poor people go to baseball games and basketball games and football games maybe even still hockey games, and a beer at any of those venues costs more than your non-member fee at a PDGA tournament. And ticket prices for pro sports or any form of entertainment are still way high, and let's face it entertainment is expensive. Disc golf tournaments are pretty cheap, even when they cost $100 or maybe $250 for a four- or five-day major-type tourney. It's not so much the money but always always always perceived value. Besides, disc golf tournaments are getting cheaper across the board, because the players have asked for it.

There is also the contingent who want bigger and richer so they can win more, but generally people come for friendly competition, and to humiliate Daniel Marcus repeatedly. But you shoulda seen Daniel yesterday playing Pyramids and birdying 16 Gold, 17 Gold and 18 Gold to finish with the turkey, taking $16 of my money (with $1 Hole 18 CTP). I believe that's the most I've ever lost to one person for a single round of play. Dang.

16 gold, lucky drive through the shule or big putt?

True......................but when most events are pushing $ 100.00- $200.00 entry fees + Hotel + Round Trip Airfair + Rental car ....................................some weekends could cost between $ 500.00 to $ 1000.00 + if food + drinks + Disc Golf merchandise ( bags , discs , aparell , etc. ).............................Man ................I need a few corporate sponsors !!!!!! :eek:

Found on another message board:


Well, I took the plunge. I ordered my PDGA membership online today. I'm playing enough tournaments to justify it for this year.

I wanted to mention that I talked to PDGA HQ, and they said that a membership fee hike is expected in the next year. So, by buying a few years up front now, you'll save a few bucks.

I went ahead and signed up for three years.

Cost of living/inflationary price increases I can handle and fully expect.

Now, if they are going to make the Am membership $100 and the Pro $250, I may have to rethink the value of signing up. I am not saying I would not rejoin, it would take some debate and pursueding of the wife to allow me to do it.

But if we are talking about going from $40 to $45 or $50, then the point is moot. Plus, the likelihood of me signing up for a professional membership in 2007 is very high.

I'm guessing the details will be released in the Summit meeting minutes at some point. But it may be a while since none of the Board minutes for 2006 meetings appear to be approved and posted online yet.

I'm guessing the details will be released in the Summit meeting minutes at some point. But it may be a while since none of the Board minutes for 2006 meetings appear to be approved and posted online yet.



We've decided we're not going to publish any more until everyone stops harping about "openness"... :D

I'm guessing the details will be released in the Summit meeting minutes at some point. But it may be a while since none of the Board minutes for 2006 meetings appear to be approved and posted online yet.



We've decided we're not going to publish any more until everyone stops harping about "openness"... :D



By "everyone" you mean all 5 of us here on the message board? :D;) :p

We've decided we're not going to publish any more until everyone stops harping about "openness"... :D



we can always harp on other things like: "to lead is to serve" :eek: :p :D

We'll be approving The Summit minutes at our next teleconference board meeting. Then they will be posted. I don't know why minutes from earlier in the year aren't posted yet, perhaps we forgot to approve them at The Summit?

Anyway, this is unofficial, but the dues will go up January 1, 2007: $75 for Pros and $50 for Ams.

Along with that will be a one-time amnesty for all Pros under a certain rating (not yet decided) to become Ams again, if they so choose. Some may choose to remain Pro to, for example, work on becoming Certified Teaching Pros.

Another change will be that the 17-19-year olds will not pay Junior fees, but full Am fees instead. I think we'll be calling them "Youth" instead of juniors. It seems kind of strange to be callling them Juniors when some of them are so close to winning Am Worlds :)

Although I am leaving the board, I hope that this is one more step along a path to where players will have to qualify to become Pros, not just self-declare.

Anyway, this is unofficial, but the dues will go up January 1, 2007: $75 for Pros and $50 for Ams.




:DGood thing I signed up thru 2010 this year.. :D

Along with that will be a one-time amnesty for all Pros under a certain rating (not yet decided) to become Ams again, if they so choose.



My wife would like that......She has not played in a competition in 5 years (since the birth of our daughter)

She would like to be able to "Start Over" as an AM....... :D

Perhaps several members will decide to pay in advance once the fee increase is more widely known.

I pay over $300 a year to belong to the only other member organization I belong to. Their magazine is lame and they don't offer ratings based competition. I pay up only because it is required by my employer.

You can charge any price you want for PDGA membership and it is a fair price. Anyone who does not like the price does not have to join. Except the four or five people who are required to by their employer! :D

Perhaps several members will decide to pay in advance once the fee increase is more widely known.



i suspect that will be the trend.

If we renew prior to Jan 1 will we be still have to pay the 07 rates?

I'd think you would need to pay for as many years ahead at the current rate before the official renewal period starts which is in mid-November.

Perhaps several members will decide to pay in advance once the fee increase is more widely known.



i suspect that will be the trend.



i am afraid my selective mishearing was in operation there. Chuck while i do think more people will pay in advance to avoid the rate hike, i also think several members will decide to play in advanced once the fee is more widely known (iow, some pros playing around 955 or less golf will decide to become amateurs again rather than pay more in annual dues and donate their entry fees as well).

as a rookie Pro, if i am less than 955 by year's end and my personal finances don't improve, i'll probably opt not to renew as a Pro. what by the way is the average Pro Master rating (or the average rating of play) to cash in an A tier (or a B tier)? if you happen to know that figure, i'd really appreciate your sharing it with me...

Don't know about the Master cash line. I never cash in Master at an A-tier at 946. But I can snag last cash at B-tiers maybe half the time and have the chance to be in contention and/or win a C-tier every few years depending on where it's located.

I think that's perfectly fine that several lower rated pros might take the amnesty, which isn't such a big deal other than less paperwork than asking to switch back, as it is right now.

I guess an increase in fees is natural and that the BoD wants to add staff in order to serve the membership. We do get a great magazine and a discount on every event we play in addition to a rating among other things for our membership, so i guess it can't really be considered a lot of money...

one idea i'd like to throw out there is: has anyone ever suggested that TD's be given some free advertising space in the DGWN? I have heard a quarter page ad in the DGWN is fairly expensive and am wondering if it wouldn't be a good idea to have an
"upcoming sanctioned tournaments" section in which events are given a place to advertise and members can gain entry fee and contact info? I guess the space would have to be fairly small for each individual tourney and it would only be for tournaments coming up prior to the next DGWN issue. Also, Td's would have a deadline to submit info by in order to make the next edition.

has that ever been considered? i know there is a calendar in the DGWN, but it would be great to see entry fee and format info without TD's having to incur the cost of taking out an ad to get people to learn about an upcoming event.

just an idea, feel free to tear it to shreds if it's a bad one...

We'll be approving The Summit minutes at our next teleconference board meeting. Then they will be posted. I don't know why minutes from earlier in the year aren't posted yet, perhaps we forgot to approve them at The Summit?

Anyway, this is unofficial, but the dues will go up January 1, 2007: $75 for Pros and $50 for Ams.

Along with that will be a one-time amnesty for all Pros under a certain rating (not yet decided) to become Ams again, if they so choose. Some may choose to remain Pro to, for example, work on becoming Certified Teaching Pros.

Another change will be that the 17-19-year olds will not pay Junior fees, but full Am fees instead. I think we'll be calling them "Youth" instead of juniors. It seems kind of strange to be callling them Juniors when some of them are so close to winning Am Worlds :)

Although I am leaving the board, I hope that this is one more step along a path to where players will have to qualify to become Pros, not just self-declare.



I hope my fee's don't go higher. I pay $150.00 a year PDGA fee's for being a Ace Club member.

If your pdga dues were doubled would you sign up next year? <font color="red"> [Note from moderator: This is not an official PDGA poll and there is no such proposal on any table, anywhere. Don't get all worked up!] </font>



Wow the vote is now 12-9 and thats without even telling the people what the higher fees will be used for!

Just think if I laid out my plan telling how well the money would be spent.
For it to be only 12-9 against from just the players knee jerk reaction should really tell the pdga something!!

If your pdga dues were doubled would you sign up next year? <font color="red"> [Note from moderator: This is not an official PDGA poll and there is no such proposal on any table, anywhere. Don't get all worked up!] </font>



Wow the vote is now 12-9 and thats without even telling the people what the higher fees will be used for!

Just think if I laid out my plan telling how well the money would be spent.
For it to be only 12-9 against from just the players knee jerk reaction should really tell the pdga something!!



It should be noted that after your poll started, a proposal is indeed on the table. In fact, it was posted several messages up that the dues will likely go up on January 1, 2007: $75 for Pros and $50 for Ams.

Looks like I will play one more year of AM then before I go to the underground tour.

If your pdga dues were doubled would you sign up next year? <font color="red"> [Note from moderator: This is not an official PDGA poll and there is no such proposal on any table, anywhere. Don't get all worked up!] </font>



Wow the vote is now 12-9 and thats without even telling the people what the higher fees will be used for!

Just think if I laid out my plan telling how well the money would be spent.
For it to be only 12-9 against from just the players knee jerk reaction should really tell the pdga something!!



It should be noted that after your poll started, a proposal is indeed on the table. In fact, it was posted several messages up that the dues will likely go up on January 1, 2007: $75 for Pros and $50 for Ams.



How much is the Lifetime thing ? Like $2,000.00 ?

eagle club is 2 grand donny

Doubling the dues? Why? Remember the demographics of your players.

The dues are not being doubled, just increased.

I think it is $50 for Am, and $75 for pro. (I haven't gone back and checked the post, but someone from the PDGA office posted it in this thread.)

These increases are not that big of a jump. It is basically the same cost for entry into an A-Tier event.

what pro A TIER is only 75? the lowest ive seen in 85.

what pro A TIER is only 75? the lowest ive seen in 85.




It is basically the same cost for entry into an A-Tier event



basically the same, and the same are not the same.... it is a relative range only to give someone perspective. Thank you Mr. Literal. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

So lets see, with no explanation of the what to do with the increse in dues it was only out voted 1-1/2 to 1.
Not to bad of a knee jerk response with no rhyme or reason for the increase.
^
If I had laid down the plan it would have easily gone the other way,( maybe even 2 to 1 in favor of the increase or higher) which would mean an increase in revenue, but even the players that will still say no will wind up signing up once the A tier hits their area.

Should I start another poll explaining how I think the money shoud be spent and see what the numbers say?