underparmike
Jan 03 2006, 12:52 PM
There are 6 people on the PDGA Rules Committee. 1 of these people is an owner of Innova, and 2 others are sponsored as players by Innova.
Why in the world would the PDGA allow anyone with a conflict of interest such as these 3 individuals (Harold Duvall, Rick Voakes, and Carlton Howard) to sit on the Rules Commitee?
In my opinion, the Rules Committee is a very important PDGA Committee, and the rules of disc golf should not be determined by anyone with a conflict of interest. Since Harold is an owner of Innova and rewards Carlton and Rick with money throughout the year, it appears that Harold wields undue influence on 3 of the 6 votes on the Rules Committee.
Please, John Chapman, Competition Director, please put an end to this. You determine who is allowed to sit on the Rules Committee. Move our sport forward and remove these 3 people from the Rules Committee.
james_mccaine
Jan 03 2006, 12:58 PM
My immediate reaction is "What is the conflict?"
You're gonna have to fill me in, I'm not coming up with any conflicts, or I have yet to see any rules or rules changes that would even hint at a conflict.
AviarX
Jan 03 2006, 01:18 PM
it is only natural that persons with the necessary disc golf knowledge and competitive experience to serve competently on such a committee tend to be persons who also have the skill and experience and knowledge to be sponsored disc golfers.
what possible conflict of interest are you talking about? what kind of rule can be crafted to favor a particular disc manufacturer or its sponsored team?
have any rules been proposed which penalize a player for throwing Gateway or Discraft plastic? :eek: :confused: :eek:
which members of Gateway or Discraft's company or team have volunteered their time to the committee and been turned down?
do you have a personal gripe with Innova that creates a conflict of interest for you with regard to this issue?
underparmike
Jan 03 2006, 01:50 PM
There are plenty of people equally as qualified as Innova's yes-men who sit on the Rules Committee.
The conflict here is that if Harold wanted to push through another one of his rules revisions, he has monetary influence over Rick and Carlton's votes. While Harold will of course deny ever wielding his influence, it is the appearance of impropriety on what is probably the most important committee in disc golf that troubles me.
Beyond that, yes, I will admit that I dislike the current Rules Commitee because they keep making major revisions to the rules every year such that too many disc golfers are now very confused about what rules are current, and how to interpret them properly.
How can rules be enforced when too many players don't realize that the rules keep changing? It is still the players who enforce rules (since we can't yet afford to hire enough officials), and if rules are interpreted by different groups differently, there is no equality for competitors.
The way some of the rules read now, Innova sponsored players may very well be lenient with other Innova sponsored players when it comes to lost discs. Innova has a bonus system where if Innova-sponsored players sweep the top 5 places at a Supertour, for example, then those players are rewarded with money from Innova. That is a direct incentive for leniency to other Innova players.
The fairness and equal application of the rules is being undermined by Innova, and half of the Rules Committee is represented by that company. It should stop.
AviarX
Jan 03 2006, 02:25 PM
so you are accusing Harold of bribery and Carlton and Dr. Rick of being his ho's? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
underparmikey has finally cracked the conspiracy behind Ken Climo's dominance!
meanwhile, these guys donate their time to the sport they love to make it better. what evidence do you have that Carlton and Dr. Rick have ever been swayed by Harold regarding rule issues, let alone that they did so for a few extra discs? I know Harold probably brings bags of money to all the RC meetings, and that Dr. Rick and Carlton are probably destitute and therefore easily swayed by promises of $ and plastic, but aren't the RC meetings done by email or teleconference? :p
until you explain what possible rule can they come up with that slants the playing field toward Innova i think you are just a troll. you are being ridiculous.
Parkntwoputt
Jan 03 2006, 02:37 PM
so you are accusing Harold of bribery and Carlton and Dr. Rick of being his ho's? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
.......
until you explain what possible rule can they come up with that slants the playing field toward Innova i think you are just a troll. you are being ridiculous.
He is a conspiracy theorist. Of course there is alway the outside chance that something like this could happen, but the reality of it is that these people on the rules committee are looking out for the best interest of the sport. Underparmikey is only looking out for the best interest of himself. .
gnduke
Jan 03 2006, 02:53 PM
I might debate the second part of that.
What part of this debate could in any way be good for Mikey ?
It doesn't appear to be good for anyone.
His argument could hold some water if the RC decided on anything that could drive money to one manufacturer or another, but even if his so called influence is used to sway other votes, where is the conflict of interest ?
I'm not saying that Harold could influence the votes of other members, but even if he could, there would still be no conflict of interest.
bruce_brakel
Jan 03 2006, 02:56 PM
So is it Mikey's theory that Innova sponsored players get stuck in trees more but Discraft sponsored players lose more discs? I don't see any conflict of interest here. Not even close.
A conflict of interest is when you have an interest in both sides of a transaction. When Rick Rothstein was on the Board and was contracting with the PDGA to produce the DGWN for the PDGA, that was a conflict of interest. The Board was interested in a lower price. Rick was interested in a higher price. If there is some way that the PDGA benefits from one version of the Unplayable Lie rule where Innova benefits from another version, explain it to me.
It is not a conflict of interest to pack a subcommittee with your cronies. [And I'm not calling anyone anyone's crony. I'm just saying.]
sandalman
Jan 03 2006, 03:02 PM
his point is that the rules changes are confusing enough that members of a certain team could agree to make calls in those situations to the advantage of their team members.
mikeys points are:
1. the rules changes are confusing and different interpretations yield vastly different results out there on the course.
2. it is well documented that humans are opportunistic.
i do not believe anyone can argue much with those two points.
put them together, and one can see how an appearance of impropriety might exist. and in conflict of interest situations, it is the perception that a conflict could exist, not the reality of whether or not it actually exists, that matters.
not defending mikey's side, or pointing fingers at the RC. just being a casual observer of this discussion.
underparmike
Jan 03 2006, 03:07 PM
Aviar, do you or anyone know how any of the Rules Committee stands on any rules issues? Do they ever post the results of their votes when they decide what rule of the week they change? Do they ever post the minutes of their discussions?
No, they don't. Get this through your little Innova Aviar head: It is the appearance of undue influence that troubles me and should trouble you. I already said there are several good candidates who would work just as diligently as the 3 members of Innova's team.
To say that Carlton, Rick and Harold are the only people capable of determining rules is to insult the rest of us who know, study, and follow the rules. Will the sport fall into complete chaos if these 3 people with a conflict of interest resign from the Rules Committee? OK Aviar, now prove an unproveable argument as you would demand of myself.
underparmike
Jan 03 2006, 03:23 PM
Ok Bruce, help me out. If it's not conflict of interest, what is it?
I'm not saying that Innova is changing rules to benefit its sponsored players. I am saying that the PDGA, especially its Rules Committee, should not have people in charge that are affiliated with any disc golf manufacturers or other for-profit companies.
Wouldn't it be best if the people deciding our rules are free of any corporate influences? Just because Innova has the deepest pockets in disc golf doesn't mean they should have control of the Rules Committee, which they do at the present time. If Innova doesn't like a rules change for whatever reason, they can block it. That's not right.
james_mccaine
Jan 03 2006, 03:39 PM
mikeys points are:
1. the rules changes are confusing and different interpretations yield vastly different results out there on the course.
2. it is well documented that humans are opportunistic.
i do not believe anyone can argue much with those two points.
Really now. I read where people are still arguing over whether it is a circle or a line. People are questioning if they have been marking their near OB disc correctly. And on and on and on. By the way, these are old rules. So I guess it is not only the rule changes that are confusing, but the original rules themselves, and the original, original rules, etc.
Couple the fact that the old rules were confusing with the fact that humans are opportunistic and what do you get? What you have had for years and years and years. NOTHING has changed.
As you might guess, I don't think our rules are that confusing. Some might be misguided, but not confusing. Some people don't read, won't read, or can't read. Is this a failing of the RC? Secondly, and most importantly IMO, our rules are not that confusing if you use common sense and some judgement. The problems come in when people become infatuated with their ability to argue and argue otherwise clear concepts. They choose to go off on these fantastic interpretations of simple language and concepts, and then decry that the rules are to blame.
So, to end my blather, your premise is flawed. I for one, am opportunistic, and will argue anything. :p
I still see no conflicts.
gnduke
Jan 03 2006, 03:54 PM
Again, what is the conflict of interest ?
Forcing confusing rules on players in an attempt to gain an unfair advantage by ganging up on the competition with favorable rulings for other team members. ?
What difference does it make whether he is on the RC or not as far as that strategy goes ? Any team could do that without having a seat on the RC.
Undue influence is not a conflict of interest and I don't see how it could be used in this case to create one when there is no clear advantage gained by any one team over another with a rule change that is not brand specific.
Meaning any tactic one team could use in interpreting the rules, any other team could do the same. Also any consistent abuse of the rules by any team would likely result in sanctions against the team by a separate committee.
bruce_brakel
Jan 03 2006, 04:05 PM
I don't see any harm if those who have the biggest stake in our sport, those who have made this sport their livelihood, also have a big influence in the direction of the game. That is a confluence of interest, not a conflict. What is good for disc golf is good for Innova. Regardless of what I think of the recent rule changes, it would be unwise to exclude owners, employees or sponsored players from Innova, Discraft and the other manufacturers from serving in volunteer positions.
scoop
Jan 03 2006, 04:37 PM
Why in the world would the PDGA allow anyone with a conflict of interest such as these 3 individuals (Harold Duvall, Rick Voakes, and Carlton Howard) to sit on the Rules Commitee?
To quote my good friend, Inigo Montoya: "I do not think that word (or phrase in this case) means what you think it means."
bruce_brakel
Jan 03 2006, 05:05 PM
Why in the world would the PDGA allow anyone with a conflict of interest such as these 3 individuals (Harold Duvall, Rick Voakes, and Carlton Howard) to sit on the Rules Commitee?
To quote my good friend, Inigo Montoya: "I do not think that word (or phrase in this case) means what you think it means."
To quote Trotsky: "Everyone has a right to be stupid. [Mikey] abuses the privilege."
davidsauls
Jan 03 2006, 05:59 PM
Please, John Chapman, Competition Director, please put an end to this. You determine who is allowed to sit on the Rules Committee. Move our sport forward and remove these 3 people from the Rules Committee.
Please, John, find some more Harolds, Ricks, and Carltons to volunteer and keep moving our sport forward!
AviarX
Jan 03 2006, 07:44 PM
Aviar, do you or anyone know how any of the Rules Committee stands on any rules issues? Do they ever post the results of their votes when they decide what rule of the week they change? Do they ever post the minutes of their discussions?
No, they don't. Get this through your little Innova Aviar head: It is the appearance of undue influence that troubles me and should trouble you. I already said there are several good candidates who would work just as diligently as the 3 members of Innova's team.
To say that Carlton, Rick and Harold are the only people capable of determining rules is to insult the rest of us who know, study, and follow the rules. Will the sport fall into complete chaos if these 3 people with a conflict of interest resign from the Rules Committee? OK Aviar, now prove an unproveable argument as you would demand of myself.
has anyone from Discraft or Gateway offered their time and energy to serve on the RC? can you site one of Kenny or Barry or Juliana or Des's wins where they used their position as a member of team Innova to get a ruling in their favor which allowed them to defeat a competitor?
[counter-mikey mode engage]
i think it is unfair that other companies and other teams aren't doing as much volunteer work for our sport! that gives them more time to practice! UNFAIR, i tell you! [disengage] :p
your arguments aren't worth the keystrokes that created them
neonnoodle
Jan 03 2006, 08:06 PM
Anyone who takes Underpants Mikey seriously is asking for trouble.
Do you really think that Mike could be so idiotic without making a conscious effort?
I mean he has to know that Carlton has guns and no qualms about using them, right? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Just kidding.
<font color="666666"> He wouldn't waste the ammo on such worthless prey... </font>
hazard
Jan 03 2006, 11:37 PM
[devil's advocate mode]
I agree with those who are arguing against Mikey pretty much wholeheartedly.
However, I think some of you are missing his point.
I don't believe it is so much that he is necessarily claiming that he believes there IS undue influence going on. What he has an issue with is essentially the fact that there is the potential for someone to suspect such of being the case. From a certain perspective, it does appear that one person could theoretically have considerable influence and possibly even control over three spots on the committee instead of just one. I think it is more a case of his being concerned that the situation could be perceived that way than it is a case of his claiming to believe unfair advantage is actually being taken...in case that matters to anyone.
Of course I could be wrong.
New update to the 2006 rules:
806.66 Any player throwing Discraft, all throws will be ruled as OB. Add (1) stroke to each throw. :o
Any player throwing Gateway, all throws will be ruled LOST. Stroke & distance to each throw. :eek:
Any player throwing Innova, all drives will be ruled an ace. :D
Are these the new rules we should be worried about? :p
AviarX
Jan 04 2006, 12:08 AM
[devil's advocate mode]
I agree with those who are arguing against Mikey pretty much wholeheartedly.
However, I think some of you are missing his point.
I don't believe it is so much that he is necessarily claiming that he believes there IS undue influence going on. What he has an issue with is essentially the fact that there is the potential for someone to suspect such of being the case. From a certain perspective, it does appear that one person could theoretically have considerable influence and possibly even control over three spots on the committee instead of just one. I think it is more a case of his being concerned that the situation could be perceived that way than it is a case of his claiming to believe unfair advantage is actually being taken...in case that matters to anyone.
Of course I could be wrong.
but what i am saying is that the reason for this has probably more to do with who happened to be willing to take on this volunteer responsibility than anything else. Has anyone from the other companies ever been denied an opportunity to serve on this committee?
Should someone from Discraft and Gateway be forced to work on this committee? :eek:
are any of the top brass at Gateway or Discraft voicing concern? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
i think all of our disc companies do a good job of promoting our sport and tend to care a lot about disc golf rather than simply being interested in making money off of it.
it may be poetic justice that -- that approach probably pays better in the long run anyways :D
AviarX
Jan 04 2006, 12:20 AM
our rules are not that confusing if you use common sense and some judgement. The problems come in when people become infatuated with their ability to argue and argue otherwise clear concepts. They choose to go off on these fantastic interpretations of simple language and concepts, and then decry that the rules are to blame.
this may be the most insightful post i have ever read in the Rules section of our message board :cool:
gang4010
Jan 04 2006, 07:54 AM
Wow Mikey, You are truly over the top. Of all people to question integrity - Harold Duvall is not the conspiracy candidate you bill him as.
Seems to me your big issue is the fact that rules are changing AT ALL - and that you (and those around you) aren't capable of keeping up with them. What - are you still clinging to your '97 rule book? Do you even carry one? Do you give them out as prizes - or encourage others to carry them? If I were you - I would make a greater effort to distribute and talk about rules changes to help folks play correctly - in lieu of crying "conflict of interest" foul against three members of the Hall of Fame.
Sort of funny that for years and years there were barely enough volunteers to sit on committees - and as soon as there are more than one candidate for any one seat - THEY are obviously a better choice.
DeanTannock
Jan 04 2006, 11:46 AM
If the people on the "technical standards committee" were all affiliated with one disc manufacturer I would be worried. Considering Carlton and Rick have been involved with the rules for so long and were not sponsored long ago when they first took flight into this,I feel no conflict.
Deano...
underparmike
Jan 04 2006, 12:03 PM
I should have figured as much. Harold's given most of you some sponsorship in the past so you are quick to jump to his defense so that you won't be excluded as you grovel for Innova's future sponsorship. Harold's a nice guy but if you think he's not motivated by making money, you are just as blind as you accuse me of being.
If Harold and Innova are so dedicated to seeing the sport flourish, why did they sue Discraft and Gateway over their patents rather than look the other way? And now you want to let these profit-driven people sit on the Rules Committee? Are you really so blind as to think the PDGA can't make it without these 3 people? How about if we ask Carlton and Rick to refuse anyone's sponsorship if they want to sit on what should be an impartial committee?
Has the Rules Committee ever asked for volunteers? I don't think so. Has the Rules Committee ever required players, who make calls, to know the rules? If we change the rules each year, shouldn't we require our players to pass some sort of test?
Face it. The rules of disc golf are not applied impartially in tournament play, and our Rules Committee is either incapable of correcting this or just doesn't care enough. Maybe if we had someone on the RC other than Harold who is busy making money off us all the time, we could have better rules and better enforcement of rules.
...now back to the members sucking on Harold's tip...
bruce_brakel
Jan 04 2006, 12:14 PM
You're just nuts. What does Innova suing Discraft for patent rights have to do with the rules? Or was the whole rules issue just a red herring to attack Innova?
Innova has given me nothing over the three years that I have been doing business with them. By which I mean, they sell plastic to me at the same prices they would sell similar quantities to anyone else. They did give me a Sidewinder for Christmas last year. I'll give it back if I can get my credibility back. :)
Of course Innova is in business to make money. And they will make more money if the sport grows. Everyone [except maybe the USPS and Amtrack] is in business to make money. Money can come in handy sometimes.
Tell us what your problem with Innova really is. On second thought, don't bother. You're back on ignore.
sandalman
Jan 04 2006, 12:19 PM
the sad thing is Mikey has a point but a) he is assumed to be a lunatic, and b) no one is listening to his rants well enough to hear the underlying message.
underparmike
Jan 04 2006, 12:22 PM
I don't have a problem with Innova. I do have a problem with 3 people hired by Innova sitting on the PDGA Rules Committee who is not doing enough to ensure a fair and level playing field for all tournament players.
Yeah, I'm nuts. But I'd also be nuts to pay entry fees into a PDGA tournament knowing that who is in my group can affect how my round gets scored. And that is because the Rules Committee won't take the time to test players' knowledge of the rules, probably because 3 of the members of the RC are too busy making money off the sport to care.
DeanTannock
Jan 04 2006, 12:25 PM
I still can't see how a disc manufacturer can profit from the rules committee?
Deano... :confused:
Mikey, I actually thought you were an auditor or an attorney at first with your verbiage of "the appearance of impropriety" till you mentioned something about "looking the other way" with regards to Innova suing discraft and gateway. In case you haven't realized, this is a country based on the entrepreneurial spirit, and there are laws to protect those that have money making ideas, from other leaches that just want a piece of the pie. Innova�s right to protect their business growth is not in any way detrimental to the sport, it�s business, and the law. And Harold is doing plenty of other things, some I�m sure even I�m not aware of, to promote the forward movement of disc golf. Yes, a business is profit driven, but you�re assuming that all decisions that Harold makes are based on Innova�s profits. I think that you�re making him out to be something that he isn�t. Just because he is in the business of producing discs, doesn�t mean that he can�t have an interest in the direction of the sport. Rule changes don�t cater to one team or another, and you�ve failed to address how they do. They are about the players and the competition.
I'm not a sponsored player, so I don't have a "conflict of interest" in defending Innova, the RC, or those on it. You spoke of confusion and impartiality of the rules and enforcement. To that I say, grow some balls, and enforce them. Conflict avoiding wusses are the ones that don�t enforce the rules. If you don�t know the rules, then it�s your own fault if someone works that against you in competitive play. I assure you that if you're on my card, there will be no follies, or partiality. I don't know which division you're playing in, but if you want more impartiality, then play for cash.
One of the rule changes implemented this year eliminates the possibility for partiality. That would be the lost disc rule. Previously, and I've seen this many times, a group may give a more favorable lie to a player with a lost disc, since their disc was lost, and they have to take a stroke, then actually where the disc was last seen. The re-throw from the previous lie rule is great, because it eliminates the potential for players to "feel sorry" for a guy or gal due to the reasons listed above.
These rule changes were made, and especially the one I discussed, to help eliminate incorrect judgment calls, since they are now being made by players. I think that the RC has used very good judgment and displays a high level of evaluation of the current rules. To accuse the three unpaid members of the committee for biasing rule changes to favor Innova is unfounded, and just flat out a slap in the face to those that are trying to make the sport we love better in competition. Don't forget they are doing this in their free time, pal. If Harold was completely driven by lining his pockets, he wouldn�t be wasting his time on the rule committee, he�d be at the disc plant, secretly running old CE plastic and selling them on the side for some serious cash.
:D
gnduke
Jan 04 2006, 01:07 PM
No Pat, I think I see his point of the appearence of undue influence by one member that could conceivably use financial incentives to influence two other members. What I don't see is his point of conflict of interest.
I cannot imagine any rule or wording in the rule book that could consistently favor one manufacturer or one team over another.
The other point is that anything that is bad for the sport is financially bad for the manufacturer. I see Harold's involvement in the manufacturing side as an added incentive to get things right and remove controversy from the sport.
One question. Wasn't Steady Ed involved in the financial side of Disc Golf when the sport was born ? Was that a bad thing ?
neonnoodle
Jan 04 2006, 01:25 PM
Mike's behavior here is sickening. He'd be dqed days ago from any tournament, but here on the mess bored he is actually encouraged by a few misguided malcontents. Unbelievable.
What motive would Harold have to "influence" two other members of Team Innova? I'm under the impression that the RC's motives are to better the sport. What is Harold going to do, remove Dr. Voakes' sponsorship beacause he doesn't share the same views on rule changes? That's weak, and I'm sure that Dr. V doesn't need Innova's support, if they really did operate that way. Not everyone is evil. And you're thinking a doctor (with an assumed comfortable income) of taking a bribe of a few discs over a rule change vote? I'm "all in" that Dr. V's opinions on the RC are highly valued, and not swayed by his sponsor. If this was a company, and they were being audited, maybe your "appearance" theory holds up-----but there is still no material effect. It's politics, my friend. And every company and our gov't has issues like this, and if you have a problem with it, get involved yourself. Otherwise, vote and shut up.
AviarX
Jan 04 2006, 01:52 PM
Since you are so critical of the RC and the time they have donated serving on it for the betterment of our sport -- please provide the exact wording of any rule revisions you want enacted to make them fairer for non Innova throwers and also share with us any cold responses you have received from the RC when you tried to 'help' them out. i am sure the RC and others would welcome hearing how exactly our rulebook could be improved (the devil is in the details -- so be explicit)
Do you think Climo and Korver should have an asterisk next to their championships saying that yes they won -- but that three members of the RC share some affiliations with the same disc golf company that they enjoy as their sponsor?
underparmike
Jan 04 2006, 01:56 PM
It was a bad thing for our sport when Ed Headrick went around and made people pull up baskets that infringed on his patents. Stunted the growth of the sport. He put money ahead of the best interest of the sport. Innova did the same thing by suing the other manufacturers. That's Innova's right, and I'm aware of that, but to say that it moved the sport forward is untrue.
I don't have anything personally against Harold, Rick, or Carlton. I admire Rick for making the Worlds finals in 2000 at Grandmasters age, and Harold for winning the worlds twice, and Carlton's years of work as well. But the PDGA is growing up, and there's not any room left for people with the APPEARANCE of partiality on the RC.
I argue that this partiality is leading to players disregarding and disrespecting the rules. I've played all over the USA and even played in England, and I will tell you from personal experience that the rules are enforced differently in different places.
Gangloff, Joe Mela and those guys from that area, they enforce the rules better than anyone. They don't let folks get away with stuff that other places do. Some places, people are afraid to call foot faults or falling putts, because they might be intimidated by sponsored touring pros. And what is the RC doing to address this? Nothing. It's probably because they're too busy running a business or practicing. We need new blood on our RC.
gnduke
Jan 04 2006, 02:04 PM
Again, how would you rewrite the rules so that they were enforced the same way everywhere. Even the clearest written rules (foot faults) are handled differently everywhere. It is not a product of what's coming from the RC, but what's coming from our player base.
Copyright laws are there to protect the copyright owner.
Should a business ignore infringements that threaten it's bottom line ? How would you argue that approach to your wife when they reposses her car because you can't make payments because someone else is selling knockoffs of your patented product and undercutting your business ?
krupicka
Jan 04 2006, 02:04 PM
One of the rule changes implemented this year eliminates the possibility for partiality. That would be the lost disc rule. Previously, and I've seen this many times, a group may give a more favorable lie to a player with a lost disc, since their disc was lost, and they have to take a stroke, then actually where the disc was last seen. The re-throw from the previous lie rule is great, because it eliminates the potential for players to "feel sorry" for a guy or gal due to the reasons listed above.
If a disc manufacturer wanted to tweak rules in their favor, they would be voting for rules that encouraged discs to be lost so that more could be sold rather than increasing the penalty when discs are lost.
underparmike
Jan 04 2006, 02:12 PM
Gary, it might not be a question of re-writing the rule book, although I feel that is certainly worth discussion. It may well be the best solution is to make every player who enters an NT event pass a rules test. Maybe it would simply be for the Rules Committee to hold meetings at the Worlds that are open to the players and TDs of the PDGA. Maybe it would be as simple as having the RC answer questions on the members-only forum instead of making people jump through the hoops of determining who's on the RC and then e-mailing them with questions. Shouldn't players have as much information as possible in regards to how our rules are supposed to be interpreted?
underparmike
Jan 04 2006, 02:16 PM
Can someone point me to the rules changes for 2006 again? When I look on this website under Rules for a "Lost Disc" it still has the old rule. COME ON RULES COMMITTEE PEOPLE IT'S 2006!! :p :D
discette
Jan 04 2006, 03:06 PM
When I look on this website under Rules for a "Lost Disc" it still has the old rule. COME ON RULES COMMITTEE PEOPLE IT'S 2006!!
Is the RC responsible for updating the PDGA website?
sandalman
Jan 04 2006, 03:10 PM
no, a very small group of volunteers are. there is a person working on getting the new rules into the searchable system. in the meantime, there is a link on the front page to a PDF file of the new rules.
gnduke
Jan 04 2006, 03:18 PM
I agree that some of the rules could bear clarifying and was hoping that would happen in this version. I was hoping that all of the Q&A items would be addressed and those Q&A items were no longer necessary. I know that a few of them were, but haven't been through all of them. Guess I'll do that tonight.
neonnoodle
Jan 04 2006, 04:01 PM
One of the rule changes implemented this year eliminates the possibility for partiality. That would be the lost disc rule. Previously, and I've seen this many times, a group may give a more favorable lie to a player with a lost disc, since their disc was lost, and they have to take a stroke, then actually where the disc was last seen. The re-throw from the previous lie rule is great, because it eliminates the potential for players to "feel sorry" for a guy or gal due to the reasons listed above.
If a disc manufacturer wanted to tweak rules in their favor, they would be voting for rules that encouraged discs to be lost so that more could be sold rather than increasing the penalty when discs are lost.
BOO YAH KA KA!
Nice one!
Of course that has nothing to do with Mike's real issue here is. Can you guess what it is?
I bet you Pat, Rhett and Jeff could tell you all about it.
Pizza God
Jan 04 2006, 04:07 PM
Who better to serve of the RC than people who make a living off disc golf???????????
The people on the RC are all volenteering there time to make the rules easier to understand and trying to eleminate iffy calls.
This has been a theme for the last several years.
Personally, I still like the 92 rules. :D
LouMoreno
Jan 04 2006, 04:09 PM
Great point, Gary. Unless the Q&A is included in the rule book, the rule should be rewritten in a way that the Q&A is no longer necessary with the next rules update. I carry a rule book in sanctioned play but have never bothered to print the Q&A items and carry them also.
gang4010
Jan 04 2006, 05:00 PM
Mike,
It seems to me (after reading through your various posts) that your real issue is not with the RC - but with what you perceive their responsibilities to be. The RC's job is (for the most part) to set forth the rules to be used in competitive play. They can in no way be held responsible for how they are physically implemented at any given venue. That responsibility belongs to you and me, and every TD, and course marshall, course pro, and tournament entrant. Blaming the RC and/or Innova, or Harold seems a convenient targeting of (sorry to say it but...) your common use of conspiracy theory.
This however does not discount the fact that embedded in your posts are some legitimate issues. You joke about testing for the rules. I think it's a great idea - how bout for anyone who wants a touring pro card? I keep having to take the officials test to stay current on my officials card. What say we have all touring pro players pass the officials test? Would this help address the problem? I think only in a very small way.
Ultimately it still falls on the culture and example you set every day on the course. Play casually and ignore the rules regularly - that's the example you set. Carry a rule book, call foot faults on your friends (EVERY DAY), take your OB strokes, etc. and people around you will do the same. You say you've travelled to lots of places and seen a wide variation in how rules are called - all I can say to that is to be consistent. Either you call them or you don't. If you don't call them and encourage others to do the same - you can't hardly blame the people who write the rules.
Your issue is more with the competition director than with the RC. (Maybe he isn't the right guy either - I don't know) Inconsistent application of the rules is an education issue - not a conflict of interest issue with volunteer committee members. (Oh and for the record - I've never been sponsored by Harold as a player.)
Now - if I have interpreted you correctly - I'll be interested to know. If I pegged your issue - and if you have any energy to devote to more pragmatic means to address it - I'll be interested to hear it.
If everything you bring to the discussion is gonna be tied to
"being oppressed by the man", and how all the volunteers are out to get us, I'm not really interested. Seems like you have a lot of energy and passion for the game Mike - just wish I could hear about those things building something up once in a while - instead of always tearing things down.
I agree that taking the officials test should be mandatory for all touring players, advanced or pro. It would really encourage players to be more involved, and take the fear away from making calls. If they want to play competitively, and keep the playing field even, then everyone needs to be following the same rules.
In addition, I think that a video should be made---or a rules "segment" added each year on the worlds or USDGC videos, to go over questionable calls or other rules that everybody seems to miss. I think that this would help stress the importance of making calls. A video could also help players with the etiquette of making calls without seeming like the "bad guy" of the card.
IMO, the two reasons rules are followed inconsistently are:
1. players not being familiar enough with the rules to make a call, and/or
2. not wanting to be the "bad guy".
gnduke
Jan 04 2006, 05:44 PM
It would be nice if the TD could take a rule that often comes into play on their course and is often miscalled (or not called) and emphasize the correct application of the rule either in the players meeting or in a handout.
sandalman
Jan 04 2006, 05:56 PM
maceman tried that a year ago and was ridiculed heartily for it. but it was a **** worthy idea.
Michael what a thread. Embedded in your wild ramblings remain a couple of untouchable truths. The responses were, in part, tremendous, thoughtful. Good job.
But, it ain't really like that; the way it is is okay. Those guys are just donating their time and their expertise and we really SHOULD thank them. I do agree it all started when Bolivian agents infiltrated the Masons. How else could you possible explain the new lost disc rule?
First let me qualify, I don't mean to repeat the redundancies already reiterated in this thread; I haven't read it all. Plus I don't know what I'm talking about, nevertheless.......
It's dum to walk all the way back to where you threw when you lose a disc. You've already been stroked, you've lost a disc, too, and now after a fruitless search you have to turn and, with chin to chest, walk back to where the group and you think you threw, or the tee. Ouch. Way to make the game cruel and no fun. It was definitely the Bolivians.
I do appreciate tweaking of the rules, such as the clarification and minor change to "The OB Line". Sports are always changing their rules about "The Line." Cool, no problem. The other changes are fine. But I'm giving thumbs down on this change.
Personally, I'd like the rules to stay the same just so we don't have to keep being confused about them. In NEFA we let TDs change PDGA rules at their tournaments as long as they communicate the changes to the players before the event. Works fine.
So, what else is going on?
underparmike
Jan 05 2006, 11:37 AM
I've got a lot of issues. Can't disagree with that. To those of you who say I need to quit "tearing down" the PDGA rather than "building it up" from the inside, I say to you, I have tried to volunteer my services to the PDGA for several years now. I even ran for the BOD to show that I am interested and committed to helping this sport grow. But, the only PDGA person who was interested in the help I might bring was Chuck Kennedy, who invited me to join the Course Design Committee. Apparently everyone else would rather complain about how they are "overworked volunteers" than accept help from someone who might have different ideas than they do about how to move this sport forward.
The sport of disc golf is doomed to obscurity if the current leaders of the PDGA remain. Their unwillingness to work with those from outside their little sphere continues to harm the sport.
Shame on you Harold. You know there are plenty of people unemployed by Innova who could do as good or a better job of making our rules better and enforced better as well. Gangloff and Gary Duke and Lou Moreno are just three examples of who should take your place.
Plankeye
Jan 05 2006, 12:26 PM
I think someone has had 1 too many puffs on the magic dragon
While I'll leave the conspiracy theories to others, I'm just wondering if any of those on the RC who voted for the new lost disc rule live in a climate where there is a possibility of snow. You know, that white stuff that causes good shots (even with spotters) to be lost in the middle of the fairway until spring time. Now you get to not only add a stroke, but even get the added joy of trudging back to the tee or an approximate location in the fairway (although if it's a fairway shot or putt the footprints might still be there) and try again.
Just like that beer commercial says - "Brilliant"
bruce_brakel
Jan 05 2006, 12:44 PM
Our new lost disc rule is like the lost ball rule in golf. But golfers don't play in the snow. Maybe we could have some winter rules?
mcthumber
Jan 05 2006, 12:46 PM
You know, that white stuff that causes good shots (even with spotters) to be lost in the middle of the fairway until spring time.
I've played in several tournaments in which TDs have declared "winter rules", ie. no lost discs due to snow and some relaxation on certain OBs (frozen ponds, etc). It's similar to ball golf winter rules that allow you to move your ball out of a weather-ravaged lie to an improved one.
Common sense should prevail always...
--Mike
my_hero
Jan 05 2006, 01:43 PM
Our new lost disc rule is like the lost ball rule in golf. But golfers don't play in the snow. Maybe we could have some winter rules?
Yea...that'll help. What about some "Fall" rules too. I hear that in other parts of the country, leaves actually fall onto the ground and can make disc finding difficult.
neonnoodle
Jan 05 2006, 02:08 PM
While I'll leave the conspiracy theories to others, I'm just wondering if any of those on the RC who voted for the new lost disc rule live in a climate where there is a possibility of snow. You know, that white stuff that causes good shots (even with spotters) to be lost in the middle of the fairway until spring time. Now you get to not only add a stroke, but even get the added joy of trudging back to the tee or an approximate location in the fairway (although if it's a fairway shot or putt the footprints might still be there) and try again.
Just like that beer commercial says - "Brilliant"
Jim, have you ever considered that it is just part of the risk of playing in snow? Going back to your previous lie has got to be more accurate than playing from a lie you 100% know is incorrect.
Snow, leaves they are just twists to the game, enjoy them; and by all means keep an eye on each others discs.
Events that are not PDGA sanctioned can use any rules they want. That PDGA events all use the same rules is what I like to call part of the value of a PDGA event.
Mikey has no concept of how volunteering works in disc golf. If he did he would know that trying to get stuff done with a miscreant is a waste of time. If we were getting paid for the work then I can see us having to put up with such nonesense, but we are not so why should we. We work with folks we want to work with and who want to work with us. This is not some conspiracy, it is just the way things work.
He is either joking or he seriously is clueless. I'm guessing the latter of the two.
ck34
Jan 05 2006, 03:21 PM
Snow qualifies as a Special Condition which Chappy, our Competition Director has approved for sanctioned winter events. The Q&A has not been published yet. But, upon my request for Minnesota which has a few sanctioned winter events, we may use the 2005 version of the lost disc rule when a disc is lost in the snow - i.e. mark your lie where last seen and add a penalty throw.
So if a rule needs a "special condition" for half the continent, for 1/4 of the year, does it make sense as a rule? It's a good thing Ice Bowls aren't sanctioned.
neonnoodle
Jan 05 2006, 05:10 PM
Snow qualifies as a Special Condition which Chappy, our Competition Director has approved for sanctioned winter events. The Q&A has not been published yet. But, upon my request for Minnesota which has a few sanctioned winter events, we may use the 2005 version of the lost disc rule when a disc is lost in the snow - i.e. mark your lie where last seen and add a penalty throw.
I didn't know the Competition Director had the ability to make new rules? I thought they could only approve individual cases of exceptions to the rules. It doesn't make sense to add that as a Q & A.
If a TD is running an event under any conditions and would like to institued a rule that is not within our rules of play they must seek and get the approval of our Competition Director. If the tourney is not a PDGA (which the vast majority of events with snow are not) then there is no need to get such approval.
neonnoodle
Jan 05 2006, 05:17 PM
So if a rule needs a "special condition" for half the continent, for 1/4 of the year, does it make sense as a rule? It's a good thing Ice Bowls aren't sanctioned.
What is the percentage of sanctioned events that are likely to be played in snow? How many of them are going to seek this exception?
A lost disc is a lost disc. No one knows the exact location or status of the disc. This is a completely different situation than an OB disc and needs to be treated so. A thrown disc that is lost is a serious situation for a sport that is based on playing from where your lie is.
We give penalty throws from throwing anywhere on either side, back further than 30cm, or anywhere in front of the lie, why would we value a "known" lie, like the previous lie any less?
Hey Ramifizeusificationick, if your lose your disc on your tee shot, then you know where you've shot from. On all subsequent shots where you lose your disc, there's a good chance you won't know where your previous lie was, especially after three minutes of searching all over the place. Sure, you'll have an idea, but you also have an idea where your disc was lost.
And it would be a lot more fun arguing with you Nick if you didn't AUTOMATICALLY support every single PDGA rule, policy, guideline, change, volunteer and officer. Is internal criticism not allowed or something?
rhett
Jan 05 2006, 06:49 PM
Winter golf? Is that where, sometimes, you have to wear a long sleeve shirt because the temp is less than 70? :)
gnduke
Jan 05 2006, 07:04 PM
No, it's more like.....
Well, you just wouldn't understand !
(And I'm no expert either) :cool:
bcary93
Jan 05 2006, 07:50 PM
I've got a lot of issues. [blah,blah,blah] I have tried to volunteer my services to the PDGA for several years now. I even ran for the BOD to show that I am interested and committed to helping this sport grow.
FWIW, I'd suggest that if you are commited to help the sport grow, volunteer to clean up courses, be a marshal, spotter or TD at tournaments, run a league, donate to your area basket fund, etc. You've said you're interested, but have you demonstrated that you are, with years of thankless hard work with spiteful demagogues sniping at you ? If you are commited then keep up all your volunteering and hard work and you may some day be recognized as worthy to serve on the BOD or RC or some other important body.
The lack of humility, however, is nowhere more obvious than in your willingness to attempt to take upon yourself as much power as is possible to obtain (on the BOD). I think it's called avarice, man. If you're commited to growing the sport then show that commitment with your actions NOT your words or your intentions.
But, the only PDGA person who was interested in the help I might bring was Chuck Kennedy, who invited me to join the Course Design Committee.
That's great, so you're volunteering on the Course Design Commitee !
Apparently everyone else would rather complain about how they are "overworked volunteers" than accept help from someone who might have different ideas than they do about how to move this sport forward.
Overworked volunteers Vs. Do-Nothing-Know-It-Alls, hmm . . . I can get back to you on this if you want.
The sport of disc golf is doomed to obscurity if the current leaders of the PDGA remain.
Ahh, so you want to be rich & famous ? You may be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Now start being nice !
m_conners
Jan 05 2006, 08:59 PM
Mikey: Any other professional organization would be on top of it...the PDGA does things the way they want, who cares about paying members, right?
neonnoodle
Jan 05 2006, 09:41 PM
And it would be a lot more fun arguing with you Nick if you didn't AUTOMATICALLY support every single PDGA rule, policy, guideline, change, volunteer and officer. Is internal criticism not allowed or something?
LOL!
He don't know me berry well do he?
Ever heard of the National Tour, True Amateurs, Par Standards, PDGA Ratings System, Entry Fee and Payout Standards? The difference between you and I, Jason is that I have already won many of my battles (and I am not in any way taking credit or blame for all of those accomplishments), you're just getting started. The saying that you gather more bees with honey than vinegar isn't just a saying J.
Jason, I have noticed you AUTOMATICALLY support every single MSDGC rule, policy, guideline, change, volunteer and officer. Is internal criticism not allowed or something?
Com'on! Publicly light up Steve's arse. I want to here you complaining about all the minutia of your events volunteers failures or mess ups. And don't soft shoe it either, lay into them with full malice.
/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
neonnoodle
Jan 05 2006, 09:48 PM
Mikey: Any other professional organization would be on top of it...the PDGA does things the way they want, who cares about paying members, right?
That statement is so wrong I feel sick.
Your payment is your absolute rock bottom contribution to the betterment of disc golf. Towards supporting the things you are too busy or just unwilling to do or play any roll in. You acting like these thankless volunteers owe you something beyond the best they can do is disgusting.
This might not be a popular or PC thing to say, but we don't need members with such a selfish and unappreciative personality.
Moderator005
Jan 05 2006, 11:22 PM
The difference between you and I, Jason is that I have already won many of my battles (and I am not in any way taking credit or blame for all of those accomplishments), you're just getting started. The saying that you gather more bees with honey than vinegar isn't just a saying J.
Nick, you are the very poster child for gathering bees with vinegar rather than honey. You are the textbook definition of it. You will never ever accomplish anything as a leader in disc golf because of your profound inability to work with others.
hitec100
Jan 05 2006, 11:30 PM
I think I know what Innova's nefarious plan is.
They make rule changes that confuse people. Players start leaving the sport. Fewer people buy discs. Competitors lose money and go bankrupt, but Innova, the manufacturer with the largest market share, manages to stay afloat.
At this point, extremely popular rule changes are made, effective immediately, the sport explodes in growth, there's a disc golf park on every corner, and the only one selling discs makes a killing!
This is very clever. I'm going to go out and buy Innova stock.
--
Seriously, I think mikey's only point is that an employer and his two effective employees will probably vote as a block on rules changes, and thus the vote may not be truly democratic. But this is a small sport right now, with only a few people of influence at any given time. And so this "block voting" is probably inevitable, and not all that surprising in a small committee. The BoD should serve as a check on too many rampant changes, so I think we have what we have. And it's not all bad.
In fact, while I don't agree with all the rule changes, I have read the 2006 rulebook from cover to cover, and my impression is that some good work was done. This may even be a better rulebook than the last one. My hope is that the rulebook after this one will be even better, and eventually, there will be a solid rulebook that will last the test of time.
After all, this sport is only about 30 years old. What were baseball rules like in its first 30 years?
Pizza God
Jan 05 2006, 11:41 PM
They keep changing the rules in Football and Baseball every few years. I think the same goes for Nascar and Golf too.
As new situation come up, rules must change to meet those situations.
As far as who is on the RC, I don't think it matters. As of right now, the two sponsored players of Innova DO NOT make a living at disc golf. I don't think Harrold could give enough discs to the good Dr. to sway his vote.
AviarX
Jan 05 2006, 11:52 PM
Winter golf? Is that where, sometimes, you have to wear a long sleeve shirt because the temp is less than 70? :)
you dirty, rotten, stinking [censored]! :mad: :p :D
Fossil
Jan 06 2006, 09:47 AM
I'm going to go out and buy Innova stock.
--
Seriously, I think mikey's only point is that an employer and his two effective employees will probably vote as a block on rules changes, and thus the vote may not be truly democratic.
Innova 'stock' ? Since Innova is a privately held company I guess you mean more discs/DisCatchers.
Aren�t the two 'employees' more than gainfully employed with their real occupations so any financial incentive argument is a red herring. And after about 20 years of periodic conversations with them, I seriously doubt either have ever been called shrinking violets, in any situation, but especially when expressing their opinion. Additionally, selling their integrity for a few pieces of plastic/(gold) ... is laughable.
neonnoodle
Jan 06 2006, 10:32 AM
The difference between you and I, Jason is that I have already won many of my battles (and I am not in any way taking credit or blame for all of those accomplishments), you're just getting started. The saying that you gather more bees with honey than vinegar isn't just a saying J.
Nick, you are the very poster child for gathering bees with vinegar rather than honey. You are the textbook definition of it. You will never ever accomplish anything as a leader in disc golf because of your profound inability to work with others.
Jeff, that is just crazy talk and you know it. I have worked successfully within a number of disc golf organizing groups and committees and still do.
Are there disagreements? Absolutely, even strong ones, but the results are usually a better understanding of one another and a better working relationship.
(Not as in our case where one person, barely involved on any level at all, takes out a never ending vendetta against another, even after repeated opportunities to end the hostilities.)
gnduke
Jan 06 2006, 10:39 AM
(Not as in our case where one person, barely involved on any level at all, takes out a never ending vendetta against another, even after repeated opportunities to end the hostilities.)
Which neither of you seem to take advantage of. :mad:
neonnoodle
Jan 06 2006, 10:58 AM
(Not as in our case where one person, barely involved on any level at all, takes out a never ending vendetta against another, even after repeated opportunities to end the hostilities.)
Which neither of you seem to take advantage of. :mad:
Did I miss Jeff's olive branch? Please point it out to me.
DweLLeR
Jan 06 2006, 12:53 PM
This might not be a popular or PC thing to say, but we don't need members with such a selfish and unappreciative personality.
Pot meet kettle? :eek:
gnduke
Jan 06 2006, 01:09 PM
Did I miss Jeff's olive branch? Please point it out to me.
Does he really need to offer one ?
Vanessa
Jan 06 2006, 01:44 PM
Questions that might be asked by a new PDGA member, new to the Message Board, who thinks that he (or she) might learn something from threads in the Rules section. Or questions that might be asked by ANYONE who hopes to learn something from those threads.....
Who is Jeff LaGrassa and why does he feel obligated to pipe up with a very personal attack every time Nick Knight posts?
Who is Mike Kernan and why does he feel obligated to make riduculous charges and continue stirring the pot at every opportunity?
Who is Nick Knight and why does he split hairs endlessly?
Yeah, I know, I'm just a fuddy duddy middle aged mom who plays disc golf. But since I am a mom, I have the advantage of recognizing todder behavior when I see it.
Seriously guys, this kind of behavior on your part does not influence others positively. I'd love to be able to read and consider well-argued comments on the rules. But I hate paging through entry after entry of personal attacks and lengthy quotes of other people's personal attacks. That turns what could be a fun and interesting learning experience into something that just isn't worth any time at all.
I'm going to go out and buy Innova stock.
Innova 'stock' ? Since Innova is a privately held company I guess you mean more discs/DisCatchers.
Aren�t the two 'employees' more than gainfully employed with their real occupations so any financial incentive argument is a red herring. And after about 20 years of periodic conversations with them, I seriously doubt either have ever been called shrinking violets, in any situation, but especially when expressing their opinion. Additionally, selling their integrity for a few pieces of plastic/(gold) ... is laughable.
[/QUOTE]
I agree that questioning the integrity of the two sponsored players being influenced by Harold just doesn't add up.
If Innova does ever go public, (which they shouldn't) I'd be happy to offer my expertise with the Sarbanes-Oxley compliance they would be subject to. :D
Fossil
Jan 06 2006, 02:04 PM
I'm going to go out and buy Innova stock.
If Innova does ever go public, (which they shouldn't) I'd be happy to offer my expertise with the Sarbanes-Oxley compliance they would be subject to. :D
Since Harold's training is as a CPA, he may have that covered. :p
chappyfade
Jan 06 2006, 02:08 PM
Note:
I approved requests for exemptions for lost discs in the snow for winter events in Minnesota and one event in Maine, and only if there's enough snow on the course for a disc to get buried in it. I've approved no other exemption for any other tournaments, nor have I made a blanket statement or changed any rule across the board for all events. If a TD has not requested an exemption from me, then he has NOT received one. All exemptions are considered on a case-by-case basis and do not automatically extend to all PDGA events.
John Chapman
PDGA Competition Director
P.S. On another note, Conrad has been working on getting the new rules online, and also updates for the Q&A. These updates are finished, and will be up online as soon Conrad can do it. Until then, please refer the .PDF file for the 2006 Rules Book, which is linked to on the front page of this site.
rhett
Jan 06 2006, 03:21 PM
Questions that might be asked by a new PDGA member, new to the Message Board, who thinks that he (or she) might learn something from threads in the Rules section. Or questions that might be asked by ANYONE who hopes to learn something from those threads.....
Who is Jeff LaGrassa and why does he feel obligated to pipe up with a very personal attack every time Nick Knight posts?
Who is Mike Kernan and why does he feel obligated to make riduculous charges and continue stirring the pot at every opportunity?
Who is Nick Knight and why does he split hairs endlessly?
Yeah, I know, I'm just a fuddy duddy middle aged mom who plays disc golf. But since I am a mom, I have the advantage of recognizing todder behavior when I see it.
Seriously guys, this kind of behavior on your part does not influence others positively. I'd love to be able to read and consider well-argued comments on the rules. But I hate paging through entry after entry of personal attacks and lengthy quotes of other people's personal attacks. That turns what could be a fun and interesting learning experience into something that just isn't worth any time at all.
This post deserves repeating.
gnduke
Jan 06 2006, 03:57 PM
Yes it does.
sandalman
Jan 06 2006, 04:06 PM
Sarbanes Oxley covers a whole lot more than accounting. every dept down to IT is affected. how you upgrade your website can be affected. SOX is the best thing to happen to consultants since Y2K.
Since Harold's training is as a CPA, he may have that covered. :p
If he isn't working with public companies, I guarantee you that your wrong. Private companies aren't subject to SOX. I started working for a large public company in June, as SOX Coordinator, and I'm surrounded by CPA's and IT professionals (thanks sandalman) and they all are coming to me with the questions. This is new legislation, and most public companies didn't even have a SOX audit till late last year.
I worked in public accounting prior to my current position, and we were a medium sized firm, (i.e. no services to public companies) and noone there knew jack about SOX, including me.
My point being----just becuase you're a CPA doesn't mean you know everything about SOX. The only way he would know about SOX compliance requirements is from reading, but in practice, I guarantee his knowledge would be limited unless he works for a big 4 accounting firm.
Thanks for the attempt at slamming me. You should know better than to try to make an accountant look stupid. We're paid to be smarter than everyone else. :D
mcthumber
Jan 06 2006, 04:59 PM
But since I am a mom, I have the advantage of recognizing todder behavior when I see it.
This post deserves repeating.
And much applause.
sandalman
Jan 06 2006, 05:08 PM
hahaha... she just called nick a thumb-sucker :D
Lyle O Ross
Jan 06 2006, 05:24 PM
hahaha... she just called nick a thumb-sucker :D
I don't know, my toddler does much more than suck his thumb. I drive him to day care or grandma's every day and I've heard "What happened?" exactly 154,005 times. That still isn't as annoying as some of the garbage that gets posted here. :D
Questions that might be asked by a new PDGA member, new to the Message Board, who thinks that he (or she) might learn something from threads in the Rules section. Or questions that might be asked by ANYONE who hopes to learn something from those threads.....
Who is Jeff LaGrassa and why does he feel obligated to pipe up with a very personal attack every time Nick Knight posts?
Who is Mike Kernan and why does he feel obligated to make riduculous charges and continue stirring the pot at every opportunity?
Who is Nick Knight and why does he split hairs endlessly?
Yeah, I know, I'm just a fuddy duddy middle aged mom who plays disc golf. But since I am a mom, I have the advantage of recognizing todder behavior when I see it.
Seriously guys, this kind of behavior on your part does not influence others positively. I'd love to be able to read and consider well-argued comments on the rules. But I hate paging through entry after entry of personal attacks and lengthy quotes of other people's personal attacks. That turns what could be a fun and interesting learning experience into something that just isn't worth any time at all.
This post deserves repeating.
Come to think of it:
Who is Rhett and why is he such a disagreeable tree-loving hippie?
Who is Gary Duke, and why does he know so much about the rules of disc golf, yet so little about how to bring peace between Jeff and Nick?
Who is Schwebbie and why is he so concerned with a now irrelevant and pointless post count?
Who is Scooter and why does he throw so much farther than me at such a young age?
Who is My Hero and why doesn't he play golf anymore?
Who is Theo Pozzy and why is everyone hatin' on him?
Who is Craig Leyva and why do rumors still persist that he knows how to putt?
Who could, in a million years, truly believe that the 2-meter rule should be optional?
Who is Danny Reeves and why did he ever turn pro?
Who is The Martyr and why would someone start a thread about him being missed?
Who is Sandalman, and why does he insist on showing us his ugly toes?
Who is the lone soul out there who is still not convinced that Mikey is the Oliver Stone of the PDGA?
Who is Seewhere and where's his Red Wildcat? (nice catch, TB)
Who is Loretta, and why is she in love with Martin?
Who is Randy Wimm?
Fossil
Jan 06 2006, 05:40 PM
Thanks for the attempt at slamming me. You should know better than to try to make an accountant look stupid. We're paid to be smarter than everyone else. :D
I didn't try to slam you or anyone else, no insult or slight ever intended. I actually thought I was being positive.
If I were to be insulting, it would mimic Shakespeare .... something along the line of 'The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers'.
But I chose not to do that. ;)
The premise of this thread was absurd, I thought some action usually precipitates confilct of interest concerns and none were specified. Wintertime boredom I guess, like some dumb carp after 3 days I went for the bait. Refering to Sarbanes-Oxley I shouldn't have said that a CPA would have 'it covered', maybe should have said 'better insights than most'.
Take that slam you accountant types!
Jroc
Jan 06 2006, 05:47 PM
Questions that might be asked by a new PDGA member, new to the Message Board, who thinks that he (or she) might learn something from threads in the Rules section. Or questions that might be asked by ANYONE who hopes to learn something from those threads.....
Who is Jeff LaGrassa and why does he feel obligated to pipe up with a very personal attack every time Nick Knight posts?
Who is Mike Kernan and why does he feel obligated to make riduculous charges and continue stirring the pot at every opportunity?
Who is Nick Knight and why does he split hairs endlessly?
Yeah, I know, I'm just a fuddy duddy middle aged mom who plays disc golf. But since I am a mom, I have the advantage of recognizing todder behavior when I see it.
Seriously guys, this kind of behavior on your part does not influence others positively. I'd love to be able to read and consider well-argued comments on the rules. But I hate paging through entry after entry of personal attacks and lengthy quotes of other people's personal attacks. That turns what could be a fun and interesting learning experience into something that just isn't worth any time at all.
I was just about to post something similar to this.....glad someone else did. Its like 3 .. 7 year-olds standing right next to each other, ...each pointing a finger about an inch away from the other saying..."Im not touching you...Im not touching you....Im not touching you....Im not touching you...." Antagonizing...........then feigning innocence.
I thought most of this crap was going to stop once non-members got booted out....
Fossil
Jan 06 2006, 06:04 PM
I thought most of this crap was going to stop once non-members got booted out....
I hoped threads like this would rarely be initiated. Unfortunately we both were naive.
Guys, if you actually believed that peace would reign over acrimony simply by eliminating the most heinous of non-members, then you really haven't been paying attention.
Not trying to be rude, but it's never been too hard to name off a handful of malcontents that were capable of shiite stirring, whilst holding in their hand a current membership card.
Heck, I've even been one of 'em at times. I'm better now, though. :cool:
my_hero
Jan 06 2006, 06:18 PM
Who is Rhett and why is he such a disagreeable tree-loving hippie?
Who is Gary Duke, and why does he know so much about the rules of disc golf, yet so little about how to bring peace between Jeff and Nick?
Who is Schwebbie and why is he so concerned with a now irrelevant and pointless post count?
Who is Scooter and why does he throw so much farther than me at such a young age?
Who is My Hero and why doesn't he play golf anymore?
Who is Theo Pozzy and why is everyone hatin' on him?
Who is Craig Leyva and why do rumors still persist that he knows how to putt?
Who could, in a million years, truly believe that the 2-meter rule should be optional?
Who is Danny Reeves and why did he ever turn pro?
Who is The Martyr and why would someone start a thread about him being missed?
Who is Sandalman, and why does he insist on showing us his ugly toes?
Who is the lone soul out there who is still not convinced that Mikey is the Oliver Stone of the PDGA?
Who is Seewhere and where's his Red Wildcat? (nice catch, TB)
Who is Randy Wimm?
Those are CLASSIC MB LINES!!!!!
Thanks Mark. :D
Who is Randy Wimm anyways? :D
Fossil
Jan 06 2006, 06:18 PM
Naive:
Etymology: French na�ve, feminine of na�f, from Old French, inborn, natural, from Latin nativus native
1 : marked by unaffected simplicity
2 a : deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment
In this case I already pled guilty.
Crazy Dreamer
Beats the crap outta me, JM. :)
rhett
Jan 06 2006, 06:51 PM
I thought most of this crap was going to stop once non-members got booted out....
I hoped threads like this would rarely be initiated. Unfortunately we both were naive.
This has become enough of an issue lately to warrant more revisions.
Expect a swarm of hate-mongering "don't steal my freedoms you %$^&&&$# &^#%$% ^$%&%& ^^%&" posts followed by some bannings.
Consider the pre-warning served.
Nick you are a whacko. Trying to remeber what you accused me of. Oh well, never mind.
Oh yeah, how's the Course Evaluation going? Now THAT's interesting. I'm not quite privy to the details but I'm getting there. Going to Maine to evaluate a few courses come spring, and I'll be a PDGA Course Evaluator, woo. Pretty big task. Do we get badges or something? Something that pins inside your lapel so you can flash it cyprtically. "I'm a PDGA Course Evaluator, and I'm here to evaluate your course." Ahhhhhhhhhhhh!
People whose courses score poorly will think the system is stupid, but with objective criteria like bathrooms yes or no people will at least know how to become better. It is actually a very important service to disc golf, and I for one applaud it, even though Nick's a whacko.
Lyle O Ross
Jan 06 2006, 07:24 PM
BTW - How did Nick become a god? And if he is indeed a god, why does he get to be Zeus? If anything I would think he's more the Mars type or perhaps Uranus? :D
While I'm not much for the banter and smack that goes on here, I have to say, if you're rich enough to name yourself after a god... you deserve whatever comes your way.
sandalman
Jan 06 2006, 08:15 PM
I thought most of this crap was going to stop once non-members got booted out....
I hoped threads like this would rarely be initiated. Unfortunately we both were naive.
This has become enough of an issue lately to warrant more revisions.
Expect a swarm of hate-mongering "don't steal my freedoms you %$^&&&$# &^#%$% ^$%&%& ^^%&" posts followed by some bannings.
Consider the pre-warning served.
oh please. what "revisions" do you suggest? nick is the uber-antagonist. at least mickey makes some points. if nick would stop being such an arrogant poke in the finger with a pin prolly 90% of the nonsense that goes on here would cease.
morgan
Jan 06 2006, 08:30 PM
I much prefer the threads that I trash by talking about doodie and booogers and titties over this sort of thread. At least I'm not pretending to be a serious professional.
xterramatt
Jan 06 2006, 08:55 PM
Innova 'stock' ? Since Innova is a privately held company I guess you mean more discs/DisCatchers.
INNOVA Stock was issued in the year 2000. At first, it was not a major commodity. But it turned out to be quite a commodity.
I didn't get any IPO stock.
http://www.discgolftrader.com/kc/discs/01_ce_roc.jpg
It is now trading at 2000% of initial investment. :)
neonnoodle
Jan 06 2006, 11:15 PM
Questions that might be asked by a new PDGA member, new to the Message Board, who thinks that he (or she) might learn something from threads in the Rules section. Or questions that might be asked by ANYONE who hopes to learn something from those threads.....
Who is Jeff LaGrassa and why does he feel obligated to pipe up with a very personal attack every time Nick Knight posts?
Who is Mike Kernan and why does he feel obligated to make riduculous charges and continue stirring the pot at every opportunity?
Who is Nick Knight and why does he split hairs endlessly?
Yeah, I know, I'm just a fuddy duddy middle aged mom who plays disc golf. But since I am a mom, I have the advantage of recognizing todder behavior when I see it.
Seriously guys, this kind of behavior on your part does not influence others positively. I'd love to be able to read and consider well-argued comments on the rules. But I hate paging through entry after entry of personal attacks and lengthy quotes of other people's personal attacks. That turns what could be a fun and interesting learning experience into something that just isn't worth any time at all.
Fine mom, then I won't reply to Jeff's slander anymore. Why do you want to take all the joy out of life? I'm going to have to go talk to my theropist about this now...
AviarX
Jan 06 2006, 11:28 PM
Questions that might be asked by a new PDGA member, new to the Message Board, who thinks that he (or she) might learn something from threads in the Rules section. Or questions that might be asked by ANYONE who hopes to learn something from those threads.....
Who is Jeff LaGrassa and why does he feel obligated to pipe up with a very personal attack every time Nick Knight posts?
Who is Mike Kernan and why does he feel obligated to make ridiculous charges and continue stirring the pot at every opportunity?
Who is Nick Knight and why does he split hairs endlessly?
Yeah, I know, I'm just a fuddy duddy middle aged mom who plays disc golf. But since I am a mom, I have the advantage of recognizing toddler behavior when I see it.
Seriously guys, this kind of behavior on your part does not influence others positively. I'd love to be able to read and consider well-argued comments on the rules. But I hate paging through entry after entry of personal attacks and lengthy quotes of other people's personal attacks. That turns what could be a fun and interesting learning experience into something that just isn't worth any time at all.
^ nominee for best post of the year ^
"All i care to know is that a person is a human being, that's enough for me: he can't be any worse." -- Mark Twain
hitec100
Jan 07 2006, 12:15 AM
Who is Rhett and why is he such a disagreeable tree-loving hippie?
Who is Gary Duke, and why does he know so much about the rules of disc golf, yet so little about how to bring peace between Jeff and Nick?
Who is Schwebbie and why is he so concerned with a now irrelevant and pointless post count?
Who is Scooter and why does he throw so much farther than me at such a young age? ...
Who is Randy Wimm?
Those are CLASSIC MB LINES!!!!!
Thanks Mark. :D
Who is Randy Wimm anyways? :D
And I thought this was going to end with "Who is John Galt?"
hitec100
Jan 07 2006, 12:35 AM
Seriously, I think mikey's only point is that an employer and his two effective employees will probably vote as a block on rules changes, and thus the vote may not be truly democratic.
Aren�t the two 'employees' more than gainfully employed with their real occupations so any financial incentive argument is a red herring. And after about 20 years of periodic conversations with them, I seriously doubt either have ever been called shrinking violets, in any situation, but especially when expressing their opinion. Additionally, selling their integrity for a few pieces of plastic/(gold) ... is laughable.
Excuse me, but you cut off the rest of my quote where I essentially dismissed the concern that mikey makes. Why take my quote out of context and then correct an impression that I never intended to leave?
Mikey is concerned about something, I tried to reset the discussion back to that concern (too much of this thread has been off the point), and then address it seriously without insulting him or anyone else.
Let's grant him the point that as a group, they may vote together. Not because someone is blatantly bribing somebody. Just because naturally "birds of a feather flock together". I think mikey's initial language made it seem more nefarious, but he toned it down in a succeeding posts.
If he's right, that there is a little bit of block voting on the RC, my response to that is okay, say it's so. I'm shrugging. I think it would be natural in a sport so small, with so few influential people. Even if there were no direct ties between members of the committee, there would still be people who have worked together for years forming cliques and creating their own block voting. I really think this is natural and not nefarious, and so I'm shrugging it off. I think the BoD is there to filter out too many wild hairs from the RC, and we're here to filter out too many wild hairs that make it through the BoD. The process is slow, and that's normal, too. That was why I ended my post (which you cut out), saying we've only been a sport for 30 years, so we've got a ways to go before we should expect stable rules.
neonnoodle
Jan 07 2006, 10:04 AM
Good points. I am just aquaintences of Carlton and Conrad, but all indications are that they are free thinkers and shall we say march to their own drummers (I mean that in a good way). Mike's near slanderous accusations are total tripe.
Anyone familiar with his situation knows that he launches these attack out of pure reaction to his perceived bruised ego. Craig is 100% right when he points out that Mike needs to start by building something of positive use and interest for our dg community first and then work for change from within and in cooperation with folks already hard at work.
This is not some strange alchemy, it is simply the way things work. Crying and banging your fists in repeated temper tantrums may get you a little attention from time to time (his goal for all we know) but it is not going to get anything of real value done, and even if it did, only grudgingly so on others part.
He has been directly insulting and lacked all semblence of courtesy towards these long time volunteers and important members of our disc golf community. He does not deserve to have his alteriorly motivated issues address, rather a quick and strong message be sent to him to stop being such a baby and grow up.
All the "well there is some truth to what he said" is uninformed. There is no truth to it at all and it is not even close to the real issue which is he is a cry baby that wants attention, and will attack any vital part of our community just to get a rise out of the rest of us.
In other words, he is playing ya'll like a drum.
Even I, Nick Kight, the hair splitter, would like to believe that he has good intentions, but it is clear now, more than ever, that he has one sole purpose, and that purpose is NOT the betterment of disc golf.
xterramatt
Jan 07 2006, 10:38 AM
good post Nick.
Plankeye
Jan 07 2006, 07:55 PM
Like i said before...
"I think someone has had 1 too many puffs on the magic dragon"
neonnoodle
Jan 07 2006, 10:29 PM
Like i said before...
"I think someone has had 1 too many puffs on the magic dragon"
Witty.
my_hero
Jan 09 2006, 12:19 PM
Let's grant him the point that as a group, they may vote together. Not because someone is blatantly bribing somebody. Just because naturally "birds of a feather flock together". I think mikey's initial language made it seem more nefarious, but he toned it down in a succeeding posts.
If he's right, that there is a little bit of block voting on the RC,........
I think that IS part of HIS POINT.
james_mccaine
Jan 09 2006, 12:48 PM
I don't know, I have yet to see any spin offered that makes having three Innova guys on the RC a problem.
First, there was some lame suggestion about making the rules confusing enough so that Innova guys could take advantage of the confusion. Like I said earlier, the rules are already confusing (I maintain that this is inevitable, given the nature of rules and the nature of disc golfers) and I have yet to hear of Team Innova getting some advantage.
The wild conspiracy talk has now been toned down to: "but they are a voting block" or "two of the guys are beholden to the other." This would only have traction to me if I started to see some really poor decisions handed down by the RC and a closer look revealed that these three were the heart of the ineptitude.
This also hasn't happened. All of their decisions seem to be arguably reasonable and most importantly, well intentioned. In other words, I have seen no evidence that they are doing anything other than what they are supposed to do; and it can be argued that they are doing the job as well as can be expected.
ck34
Jan 09 2006, 12:53 PM
There are many other players out there in positions of authority who aren't sponsored but almost exclusively throw discs from one manufacturer. Are we going to have to do bag checks to make sure our committee members, marshals, TDs and elected officers do not lean favorably in some direction?
neonnoodle
Jan 09 2006, 12:53 PM
Reminiscent of the WMD toned down to are we better off now...
1984, Brazil, Animal Farm, PDGA Message Board