How can we (as Disc Golf players) expect to be taken seriously by potential sponsors if avarage entry fees are less than $100 bucks???? If I were an intrested sponsor and see that players are ONLY paying $100 to enter, here's what I would think; <font color="red"> </font> Why should I sponsor a sport where it's own PLAYERS don't invest into it ???
<font color="black"> </font> How can we expect BIG money sponsors to believe in Disc Golf, when we (as players) don't believe enough in Disc Golf to put up more money???

I do believe that we are taking the proper steps to get to that level. The USDGC, PDGA Worlds and The Players Cup are all working on making disc golf look good for corporate sponsor to invest in to start.

Sponsors will not dump big money into a sport, until that sport can prove some type of return for thier advertising dollars!

Be patient, this sport has come along way since I started. We will get there!!

Why would a sponsor waste there time with a sport where it's players aren't investing MORE money??? Shouldn't we "pave the way" so sponsors look at us like we really BELIEVE in what we're doing??? I hear Ball Golf is doing well with attaining sponsors!!!

Notice the difference in length of time.
Ball Golf = been around for hundreds of years...
Disc Golf = been around for tens of years...

Start charging $100+ per event and watch the Pro ranks evaporate--we don't have a true full-time Pro membership (5 full-time players? 10 at most?). If you have that kind of money to throw around every weekend, good for you. But you are the minority, in a big way.

This sport is young. It is growing. It won't achieve even a quarter of BG status overnight. We are heading in the right direction, with the NT, with the USDGC, with the PC. Most of us will not see the big payday tour (if it ever comes). But we will see better sponsor investment/participation.

Although I see your point, I don't believe that the players are going to invest more than they do currently. The players provide a huge percentage of the $ that fuel our disc golf engine.

Players fork out cash for:
-entry fees
-PDGA membership fees
-club membership fees
-bag tag fees
-weekly league entry fees
-equipment (discs, bags)

Touring players put out even more $$ for gas, hotels, food, etc., even though some of it might be reimbursed by their sponsor (if they have one).

Deeper sponsorships will happen, but not magically. WE need to go out and get the business community as excited as we are about disc golf. WE need to show professionalism, dedication, and consistent enthusiasm.

The PDGA is not just the BOD, the RC, and a few energetic folks. THE PDGA IS US - WE need to go out and set up sponsorship deals with local businesses. Before we can start expecting Nike and General Motors to cough up big cash, we need to get to the point where local sponsors are banging down our doors first.

Example:
I know of a state tour that has incredible courses, great events, maximum player attendance, and crappy sponsorship. Why? Because the sponsors got screwed. The sponsors put up cash and merch up front and rarely got mentioned at events. The sponsor logo wasn't shown on Tour programs or on the Tour website until the Tour was half over.

How can we expect big $$ when we don't always reciprocate?

So, until we all get it together on a local basis, we can't ask Bill Gates to sponsor a National Tour, and the players will continue to float the boat for another few years.

Here's my opinion (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=465790&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

The players provide a huge percentage of the $ that fuel our disc golf engine.





Well this engine is from the 70's, and we need a new one to move disc golf forward. So what should we do??? Ask a sponsor for the money??? Well, what kind of sponsor would put money into a car with no engine??? Yeah, we're all exited abut this "disc golf" car that looks great, and has all the bells and whistles, but no engine???
The PLAYERS need to put up the money for the engine, so sponsors know they have a SOLID investment on something that already works.

Heck, yes, we should ask sponsors for money.
We just have to make sure that the sponsor's investment sees some sort of return.

All this is slowly coming around - and solid clubs are a major reason for that. Marshall Street, Texas10, DISContinuum, and others have been working hard over the past 5 years to establish a regional presence and good sponsor base.

In another few years, if growth is consistent, sponsors will be less hesitant to support disc golf. We really are moving in the right direction. We just have to keep moving - and thanking the courageous sponsors we do have.

Higher entry fees=Smaller fields

Smaller fields=Less incentive for sponsors to invest

Pretty simple logic if you think about it. I know I wouldn't play more than one or two events each year if entry fees were always over 100 bucks.

Isn't there a stop making DG like Ball golf thread around here somewhere.


I don't know about you but I know I can barely afford the entry fees I pay now. Obviously you must have that thing called a job to pay for DG expenses. Not all DG'ers do. In fact a lot of players I know are in school or are in lower paying jobs. These people do play big tournaments, but not a lot of them.


Say every NT event goes up to $500 entry fee. I gurantee you there would not be more than 30 players, plus all the mediocre(non-cashing) pros would almost dissapear. Why would any of them pay $500 when they can go to a tournament almmost as good for $100 or less? Not all NT's have the added value to make the increase in entry fee appropriate.

Plus I am sure the top pros would not like to have NT's have a cash line around 7th or 8th place, and with no mediocre pros the whole field would be tough. This would make for fewerr pros able to make a living on tour.

Higher entry fees=Smaller fields

Smaller fields=Less incentive for sponsors to invest

Pretty simple logic if you think about it. I know I wouldn't play more than one or two events each year if entry fees were always over 100 bucks.



I concur!!!

I don't know about you but I know I can barely afford the entry fees I pay now. Obviously you must have that thing called a job to pay for DG expenses. Not all DG'ers do. In fact a lot of players I know are in school or are in lower paying jobs.



Well I guess this is something that isn't for EVERYONE, but the PDGA says that 44% of PDGA members make over $50,000 a year (8% make over $100,000). So it sounds to me that about half of disc golfers DO have money.
Say a million dollar sponsor comes, how can they expect a profit without higher fees?? If you know one let me know.
I know nobody wants to hear about ball golf, but they have a proven system, why are we trying to reinvent the wheel??? The same type of people who play ball golf, play disc golf, it's in the PDGA Demagraphics. Yeah it was different 15 years ago, but NOW it's almost 2006, don't you think it's time to move on and try something new???

Question #1: How old are you, Zac?
Question #2: Do you know how little $50,000/yr actually is? Factor in rent/bills/kids/etc. Not to mention that some of those PDGA members are (and likely will remain, due to skill/talent limits) Amatuers.
Question #3: Do you think that it should just happen overnight? It sure didn't with Ball Golf.

Million Dollar Sponsors come when spectators are present. Entry fees do not factor into their thinking.

I'm old enough thank you! Yes I know $50,000 isn't alot, if you don't want to invest money into the future of disc golf thats fine, something like this wouldn't be for you. And of course it won't happen over night, but what are we waiting for!!!! Just because Ball Golf took that long doesn't mean we need to take 100 yrs. They have a proven system, tell me why disc golf can't do the same thing???

I can't believe nobody AGREES with me????? :confused:

Professional ball golf entrance fees I believe aren't even $100 per player. First place takes home what, half a mil? I'm sick of the players fattening the purses instead of big sponsors, or sponsors at all.

Thats the kind thinking that will get us nowhere, do you even know how Professional ball golf works??? Surely not the way you discribe. :confused:

Question #1: How old are you, Zac?
Question #2: Do you know how little $50,000/yr actually is? Factor in rent/bills/kids/etc. Not to mention that some of those PDGA members are (and likely will remain, due to skill/talent limits) Amatuers.
Question #3: Do you think that it should just happen overnight? It sure didn't with Ball Golf.

Million Dollar Sponsors come when spectators are present. Entry fees do not factor into their thinking.



I'm guessing under or around 18 years of age since he thinks $50 K a year is a lot. I make way over that but guess what? Uncle Sam takes 45% of that! And yes, rent, vehicle, toys, traveling, etc. doesn't leave much for the $25,000 entry fee you'd like to see!

In fact, I've NOT been playing the Masters Cup since 1999 due to the ever climbing entry fee that goes mostly to the TD's pocket(s).

The Memorial keeps climbing higher and higher too and it's just not worth it (especially when one's game sux as badly as mine does right now).

So no, higher entry fees are NOT the answer.

IMHO, people care about disc golf like they care about darts and go carts. Those things have been around way longer than DG has but no one gives a ****. Not you, not me and certainly not the general public at large.

Sorry, but higher entry fees are NOT the answer, oh young one.

Zac:
Sorry to say, but you're way off base.

"PGA Tour members do not have to pay an entry fees to play a PGA Tournament. Nonmembers pay an entry fee of $400"
- golfonline.com

Yes, there are events created by a huge entry fee that attract sponsorship. The no-limit Texas hold-'em world championship had a total purse of $53million paid for by 5,619 entrants each buying in at $10,000. Of course there's a difference between being a professional gambler and a professional athlete (although some do wear both hats). The downside to the poker plan is that only 10% of the field earned back their entry fee.

It's been well said by several others that raising entry fees will reduce participation and move us farther away from sponsors.

In order to attract sponsors we need to professionally present their message on flyers, in programs, at player meetings and award ceremonies, on banners and tee signs, etc.
AND
we have to have spectators present to view the messages. If we're not taking care of our sponsors and insuring that the advertising money they spend actually helps them increase their businesses then why in the world would they ever want to do it again?

Professional message presentation
+
Audience
=
Reason to invest in sponsorship

Are you people really this stupid, this isn't some kind of joke!!! I don't know who any of you are, so don't be offened when I say; you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what you talking about!!!!

Just because my PDGA # is 20165 doesn't mean I'm some young punk who doesn't know whats going on. If you must know I'm 26 and have playing disc golf for 20 yrs. My first tournament was in 1987 in Brown Deer Park, I even got a trophy for 3rd place. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Anyway...............I do know how much $50,000 is, I was just pointing out the PDGA Demagraphics. I never said anything about a $25,000 entry fee, I'm just trying to open the PLAYERS eyes, it's time to move in another direction. Again, ball golf has a PROVEN system for making money, why not try something different, another LEVEL of disc golf?????

Do you know what it takes to be a PGA Tour member??? You dont just pay $50 and your a member of the PGA, you have to qualify at tournaments, that means if you miss the cut your not even a PGA TOUR Member, come back next time. And I'm sure those fees aren't $100, theres a system to how they work the money, it's a PROVEN system.

it's time to move in another direction.



"Well this job I've got is just a little too hard,
Running out of money, Lord, I need more pay.
Gonna wake up in the morning Lord, gonna pack my bags,
I'm gonna beat it on down the line.

I'm goin' down the line, goin down the line,
Goin' down the line, goin down the line,
Goin' down the line, goin down the line,
Beat it on down the line.

Yes I'll be waiting at the station Lord, when that train pulls on by,
I'm going back where I belong.
I'm going back to that same old used-to-be,
Down in Joe Brown's coal mine.

Coal mine, coal mine, coal mine, coal mine.
Coal mine, coal mine, coal mine, coal mine.
Coal mine, coal mine, coal mine, coal mine.
Down in Joe Brown's coal mine.

Yeah, I'm goin' back to that shack way across that railroad track,
Uh huh, that's where I think I belong.
And that's where I'm gonna make my happy home.

Happy home, happy home, happy home, happy home.
Happy home, happy home, happy home, happy home.
Happy home, happy home, happy home, happy home.
That's where I'm gonna make my happy home."

WOW, it's like talking to little kids about adult issues. Why doesn't anybody understand???? It's actually really simple.

Z:
You might find someone to play your little fantasy game with on w3 dot [I'm a potty-mouth!] dot com

You are a TOTAL JAG!!!! What is your problem, your really tough when Ma' Bell is protecting ya'!! ***.com is another way to talk disc golf, some people don't think it's right what the PDGA is doing, some do. But the ones who don't want to pay $50 for there "membership" should still have the right to talk disc golf somewhere.

Please tell me, why are you acting like such a Donkey???

WOW, it's like talking to little kids about adult issues. Why doesn't anybody understand???? It's actually really simple.


It is simple, Zac. We all dont have the money to put up as you apparently do.

I don't think telling people how dumb we are is helping them listen to you. Just a thought. You might want to try thinking BEFORE you type.

You have even edited half your posts and you still sound like a jerk. Great job.

You are a TOTAL JAG!!!!


My roommate has a Jag. I drove it once. The engine's really nice, but I felt like a sardine jammed in there. Then again, I have been getting a little hefty lately. Maybe I'll join the millions of other Americans and make a New Year's resolution to lose some weight. Or maybe I'll resolve to give up on this board so I don't have to have insults and veiled threats lobbed my way by tools like Z.

Or better yet, maybe I'll challenge Z. to a 36 hole match for $1,000. If you think disc golfers should put their money where their mouth's are at, why don't you lead by example? I'll even meet you 3/4 of the way to Wisconsin at IdleWyld.

I am sure I could get some sponsors for that :)

You are a TOTAL JAG!!!!


My roommate has a Jag. I drove it once. The engine's really nice, but I felt like a sardine jammed in there. Then again, I have been getting a little hefty lately. Maybe I'll join the millions of other Americans and make a New Year's resolution to lose some weight. Or maybe I'll resolve to give up on this board so I don't have to have insults and veiled threats lobbed my way by tools like Z.

Or better yet, maybe I'll challenge Z. to a 36 hole match for $1,000. If you think disc golfers should put their money where their mouth's are at, why don't you lead by example? I'll even meet you 3/4 of the way to Wisconsin at IdleWyld.



He wouldn't play us for $$$ in WI so I doubt he will play you. :o

Yeah is all fun untill someones feelings get hurt, sorry to offend any one. I said some were stupid because they assumed I was 18, thats all. But everyone is jumping all over me for no reason, why is everyone so detirmined to disagree whenever something different comes up. Don't want to go against the great PDGA, isn't it possiable, that just mabey there not doing some things right.

Why can't this just be a simple thread where the players can read and form an opinoin of there own, instead reading meaningless put downs.

I am sure I could get some sponsors for that :)



Now there's someone who KNOWS what I'm talking about!!! Hey Jeff!! Watch out, rough croud around here?

Yeah is all fun untill someones feelings get hurt, sorry to offend any one. I said some were stupid because they assumed I was 18, thats all. But everyone is jumping all over me for no reason, why is everyone so detirmined to disagree whenever something different comes up. Don't want to go against the great PDGA, isn't it possiable, that just mabey there not doing some things right.

Why can't this just be a simple thread where the players can read and form an opinoin of there own, instead reading meaningless put downs.



Hurry, someone tell Zac that Mills jacked his profile /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Everybody:

Meet the next Discpimp. :)

I mean this as a compliment of course, look at his early posts and you'll see what I mean... We're talking circa early 2003. When he was an intermediate... only 3 years later and he's still an am!

edit:
ViLiN, ya beat me to it! The comparison is somewhat uncanny, ehh?

post-edit:
Just looked at your stats. Impressive. Have you been on the messageboard before this post? I don't recognize you.

post-post-edit:
Ball Golf is a multi multi billion dollar sport. A year of disc golf spending for the entire world, could probably be measured in the 10s of millions. While other sports seem to get sponsorship for tournaments easier, it could be the setup of disc golf. In the woods and fields, not a lot of spectators, not a lot of convenience for video feeds. There's a long way to go before disc golf becomes both big sponsor material and TV material. I think that DVDs are the current way to go, and sponsors could easily be raised with the premise that each time someone watches the video, they'll see sponsor ads and product placement. Maybe when disc golf becomes a sport capable of capturing the hearts and minds of people to the extent where disc golf courses will become the basis for a neighborhood with a clubhouse, dues, and such, maybe then we'll have the kind of interest in the sport to support high entry fees. But until then, it'll simply be small local sponsors are the norm, and every once in a while a big sponsor will throw money into a tournament if they are approached with a good enough plan or the demographics seem right for the expenditure.

Why can't this just be a simple thread where the players can read and form an opinoin of there own, instead reading meaningless put downs.



UHM?

HUMAN NATURE?

Zac, your points are valid however who is going to stand up and get the ball rolling? People have become stagnant (sp) if it ain't broke don't fix it. It is apparent that a lot of people have that mentality about the PDGA. I agree with you that there needs to be a BIGGER TOUR - the problem is very few will pay a $5000 entry fee to play in one, BOTTOM LINE.

He wouldn't play us for $$$ in WI so I doubt he will play you. :o



But that was before he started a discussion board thread about disc golfers needing to step it up. If he wasn't willing to be the first one to plunk down his hard earned cash why would he suggest that the rest of us do it.

Z.: I'm not talking about $25,000 or even $10,000. I'm talking about $1,000, and I'm not even a pro. I'm overweight, pushing 40 with a bad rotator cuff, elbow, and knees and a player rating of only 949, but I will gladly take your money if you're big enough to put it where your mouth is!

And if He Wins?

Then he's got $1,000 that he should use to sponsor a tournament up that way, maybe mid-nat's.

If he takes the bet and I win, then the money's going straight into the 2006 Players Cup purse.

When did this become me playing against you, I never said anything about putting up cash, even though I would love the challange, i'm sure playing a course blind for a $1,000 isn't smart. Anywhy thats not what this is about, why does everyone freak out when they hear about raising prices, nobody is forceing you pay more, just don't play. I also want things in the PDGA to stay running the same, it works great for lower level players. What I'm talking about, is somewhere for players who WANT to take DG to the next level.

What if I said, hypothetical of course, I knew a sponsor willing to put up $100,000 but ony if he recieves 100 players willing to pay up to $1200 in a three stage tournament. Would you be interested??? Hypothetical of course.

Then he's got $1,000 that he should use to sponsor a tournament up that way, maybe mid-nat's.

If he takes the bet and I win, then the money's going straight into the 2006 Players Cup purse.



Why would you challenge me when you've never met me?? Just courious, what makes you think you could beat me???

How can we (as Disc Golf players) expect to be taken seriously by potential sponsors if avarage entry fees are less than $100 bucks???? If I were an intrested sponsor and see that players are ONLY paying $100 to enter, here's what I would think; <font color="red"> </font> Why should I sponsor a sport where it's own PLAYERS don't invest into it ???
<font color="black"> </font> How can we expect BIG money sponsors to believe in Disc Golf, when we (as players) don't believe enough in Disc Golf to put up more money???



Zac, I don't understand why higher entry fees would entice sponsors to donate more money to a tournament. It seems to me that sponsors want to be visible to a large number of possible consumers. Larger player and spectator fields would have a better chance of creating more sponsorship revenue than higher entry fees.

Yeah is all fun untill someones feelings get hurt, sorry to offend any one. I said some were stupid because they assumed I was 18, thats all. But everyone is jumping all over me for no reason, why is everyone so detirmined to disagree whenever something different comes up. Don't want to go against the great PDGA, isn't it possiable, that just mabey there not doing some things right.

Why can't this just be a simple thread where the players can read and form an opinoin of there own, instead reading meaningless put downs.





Are you Grunion?

IMO, higher fees arent the answer.

$ 50k a year would suit me just fine. If I made that or even half of it, playing Open and risking 50-100$ would sound alot better.

I'm sure that a deal like that would get some interest, but right now I think it would be tough to fill.

The USDGC and Players Cup each started with around 60-70 players and entry fees that were about double an A-tier. I think we'll be able to push the total entries for p.c. to 100-120 for next year.

My feelings on sponsor-fueled growth in pro disc golf purses is this: I want it, I know it is gradually coming, and I'm willing to commit my time and energy towards helping. In the meantime I enjoy the sport for what it is and turn on new people to disc golf at every opportunity.

I've always been great at scheming, but only in the last few years have I come to grips with the truth that my best ideas don't count for squat if I don't take the action to bring them into reality.

The reason I suggested the bet was to call you out for starting a thread about stepping it up, and suggesting a vague idea, but not offering anything you've actually done or planned. Maybe I'm way off base on that and you have taken action and are planning more.

The PDGA set the NT tour entry fee at $125 and several of the ESTABLISHED tournaments had there worst turnouts ever. (and no extra sponsorship either)

the PDGA has lowered entry fees to get more players playing tournaments.

These days (at least in Texas) there are VERY few traveling players. Even in Texas we only have a handful of touring players.

You'll have to wait and see, only the future will tell. ;) ;)

Stay tunned!!!!! :cool:

Denny, I like your style.

I agree with you that many "schemes" come and go, and discussions like this can be a "nuisance".

The results of such discussions like this for over 30 years has brought NO changes or strategies that were actually put into action. So it is difficult to start a conversation, with the upfront knowledge it will most likely come to NOTHING again.

The real value than for me, is to sort of "TEST" the waters here and see if enough people are ready to start raising the bar SOONER than later, and create an environment where a Professional player who see's a "ceiling" to earnings currently has no place to go. Capped, stagnant, dead ended, unlike any other professional sport. I will agree that it is from a "LACK" of sponsorship.....................but not corporte............or from local government....................its a lack of sponsorship right here at home......US...players like me and you.

We don't want to reward them, so how can we ask a sponsor too?

Time, than is all that is left for Professional players and that my friend is degenerative to honed skill levels, slowly losing years of sacrifice (why? For my entertainment?) and ability to really make a living from DG, support thier family, and a nest egg for retirement.

Such Professional players have for 15 years sacrificed all to advance this sport for us. They deserve to walk away after years of sacrifice and low earnings with more than an empty pocket in the end, and empty promises. (After living & travel expenses are paid) They don't deserve years from now, (how long? How soon? NOBODY knows....but hey that doesn't matter.....right? Who would run a company without a business plan that had NO measured deadlines? Would you INVEST in such a company? How do you KNOW it should take longer, if you have never had a "deadline" or goal measurement? You wouldn't! You would be reduced to "it will take longer,we don't know why?) at age 55 still hoping to have money in the bank from DG earnings, that somehow never did materialize.

No offense intended my friends, but 30 years praying for a sponsor to "bail" us out of a rut....hasn't produced a sponsor yet. It is not due to a "lack" of faith?! Certainly there is evidence here that many in this message board who have NOT been around for 30 years in the sport, are now themselves preaching the "pray for sponsor" money sermon to all the NEW converts. They themselves got that sermon from someone else, who for over 30 years has been waiting.

No offense really, just a sincere, rational questioning of the disc golf brotherhood confession of faith. Those like myself who question it are said to have "no faith" and though they themselves are still "crippled" will say I'm "crippled" because I question and prod... that it doesn't have to be this way after 30 years.

I Thank with all my heart, the Pro's who have given so much of themselves for so long, for so little in return. That for the players (me & You) who really benefited the most from their years of service wants them to receive "now" what they so deserve................a chance right now while they are young and able.....to be putting for a $400,000 purse............brought to you by players only!

**** the sponsors. The moment you determine the value of such an historical event........and do it.........the sponsors will come! Get off our knee's in front of the sponsor "idol".

"Build it, and they will come", sounds kinda fitting here..Ha!

OK, I tried my best to make this long and boring....but can't do it.

"Throw hard, just in case if flies straight!"

I Thank with all my heart, the Pro's who have given so much of themselves for so long, for so little in return.



OH PLEASE!!!

Yes, some Pros like Barry or Kurt give back freely to the sport. I can name 10 Wisconsin Pros that don't do crap except play and win.
But I can name 15 Wisconsin Ams that volunteer all the time.

Sorry, Zac, but I'm not about to pay higher entry fees so the same group of local players (or the TD) can take home an extra handful of cash.

Ken Kreie has started the PinHigh Tour with lower entry fees (nearly HALF of most Wisc tour stop entry fees) and already has a good bunch of sponsors (check out aadgc.com). Maybe we should ask him what his formula is.

30 years seems a bit of a stretch. I'd say MAYBE the last 10 years this sport has been looking for some form of outside sponsorship. And to think that the top pros are the ones pushing the sport forward on their own, well, that is far from the truth. It is the local folks, moms and pops, visionary folks with the muscle and persistence to get courses in the ground, those are the people who are truly pushing this sport forward. The pros have potential to be the figureheads of the sport, but as of right now, I would say they, we, are simply big fish in a little pond, per se.

To say that NOTHING has come out of the many years of disc golf competition, well that simply is absurd. You may be too young to remember a tournament held at the Rose Bowl in 198_ for a 50,000 purse. It was a tiered tournament. Most of the players had sponsors if they got to the next level, because back then nobody throwing frisbees had $500 to throw around to advance to the next tier in this tournament. I think nowadays, if it were a tournament like that, where it were a $100 entry, which, say, could be paid by the player, and then THE PLAYER gets sponsorship to cover his entry IF he advances, well, then I think there might be something there. But having 100 or 200 people shell out $500 that will only pay out 1/3 or less of them, I just do not see the benefit in it for 50% of the players. And then if they don't sign up, then there are another 50% of the players left who will be on the fence. See where I'm going with this? If you take the "Donators" out of the game by making the fees too high, you get down to a bunch of top pros who can risk the money since they have a higher chance of cashing. But in this sport of ours, we simply do not have the massive amounts of top pros that exist in other sports.

Keep thinking. But think solutions, not problems. Positivity, not Negativity. To say that NOTHING has come of 30 years of this game is a slap in the face to all those who have spent the energy to take this sport to the next level. Give credit where credit is due. A lot of advances have been made in this sport over the years, and being someone who's played tournaments longer than I knew the game existed, you should have a good grasp on what you think would work to take this sport to the next level again. Donate your time and energy and enthusiasm and make it happen. Make it your New Years Resolution.

klemrock
"Sorry, Zac, but I'm not about to pay higher entry fees so the same group of local players (or the TD) can take home an extra handful of cash."

Klem, whew, you guys almost had me thinking I was the only negative person in this discussion. You certainly have a unique lack of respect, for leadership. But hey, you don't mind asking a sponsor to pay for something you won't. Hmmmmmmm tells me alot about praying to the sponsor idol.


xterramaTT
"But having 100 or 200 people shell out $500 that will only pay out 1/3 or less of them, I just do not see the benefit in it for 50% of the players. And then if they don't sign up, then there are another 50% of the players left who will be on the fence "

A. Which Professional sport and its players "boycott" their sport because not "everyone" cashes?

"If you take the "Donators" out of the game by making the fees too high, you get down to a bunch of top pros who can risk the money since they have a higher chance of cashing. But in this sport of ours, we simply do not have the massive amounts of top pros that exist in other sports."

A. Brother you and I are on the same page here, sincerely! Just that we see the same information and have drawn different conclusions. I offer what I make of your "respectable" opinion. (I mean it)

The real sponsor's are the players. (said in other terms above) Once we elevate our Pro's into the "money" (make them Thousandairs, or millionairs...is based upon your willingness and faith in the sport) these same Pro's can than become the "spearhead" with money, who than can draw sponsor's to this sport by the millions of dollars. It self perpetuates into a larger venue with Player millionairs at the helm, who have the means and heart to continue thier lifelong desire to see this sport grow. (Trust)

If we are not willing to do for ouselves what must be done, than we might as well get used to the welfare line outside the sponsor temple seeking "scraps" from their table, and brother, disc golf ain't in the front of the line! For we simply have no faith in pooling our own resources to elevate this sport. I really think we do, but we have no faith in the system asking for our money. (Trust)

It's all economics, and the base population has no "guts" or trust for it. That's more negative than I ever posted.

I do thank you for your thoughts. I appreciate your feedback to my "rants" sincerely. There is much to voice an opinion on including disc golf structure, business planning, economic models to test, marketing, and proper investment strategies that are damaged, and need repair to gain the full trust of all its members.

Since 1978, no business model has been presented, with success's, failures, and oversight to guage our path to the future. Entry fee's are simply keeping with Inflation and the cost of living, but this does NOT create wealth.

That's not how we invest in our future (retirement fund) and if our returns on investments don't do better than inflation (4%) it's time we pull our investment, or add more into our funds for the future.

Niether of the above can be done for this sport, with given current attitudes I see in responses here. It's not all your's or my fault. We have been "nickeled" and dimed in such a way as to leave no real capital to invest when needed. That certainly puts a damper on everyones attitude to "invest more" or have a normal conversation about. It's a normal response and I share in your sentiments.

It's the same old question, "What came first, the players, or the sponsor.?" (Chicken or the egg)

Solve this riddle my friends, be sure of your answer so that no more dark clouds will fog our vision for the future.

Your posts were excellent, and I appreciate the input you provided. Have a wonderful, and HAPPY NEW year !

"You can learn more about a man after one hour of play, than a lifetime of conversation." Plato

"If you think you can, or If you think you can't..your probably right."

Or better yet, maybe I'll challenge Z. to a 36 hole match for $1,000. If you think disc golfers should put their money where their mouth's are at, why don't you lead by example? I'll even meet you 3/4 of the way to Wisconsin at IdleWyld.




That sounds like a great idea!! Hell, I'll take up for that bet! I'm from WI and I will make the trip down to Idlewild tomorrow for the 36 hole playoff!!

Chris,
Or I could save you the gas money and just write the check to the Mid-Nationals today! ;)

The PDGA set the NT tour entry fee at $125 and several of the ESTABLISHED tournaments had there worst turnouts ever. (and no extra sponsorship either)

the PDGA has lowered entry fees to get more players playing tournaments.



I think it's great to see entry fees lowered, particularly at the amateur level. For am tourneys I'm definitely in favor of low entry fees that cover lunch, water, and trophies. (I know some of my TD/vendor friends disagree)

At the pro level there are a small number of players that feel confident enough in their ability to incur travel expenses and hope to break even on an extended basis. For most it comes down to winning a few bucks at local events and picking and choosing from the many events for travel trips.

there's a choice nuget in xterramaTT's post:
"I think nowadays, if it were a tournament like that, where it were a $100 entry, which, say, could be paid by the player, and then THE PLAYER gets sponsorship to cover his entry IF he advances, well, then I think there might be something there."

I'll put forth a concept here that takes that idea and builds it into something approaching what Zac started the thread with:

1) Shrink the number of National Tour events to 5, ending with the USDGC. (make the Players Cup an NT and move it to the springtime)

2) Schedule A-tiers (possibly some former NT's) the weekend before and weekend after NT's within 500 miles to facilitate touring.

3) Make NT's 72 hole events with 2 shotgun rounds on Friday and one round with tee times on Saturday and Sunday.

4) Have all entrants pay $100 initially. After Friday the bottom 1/3 would be cut. Then all entrants would have to be sponsored for another $100 (have your mom pay it if you can't shake someone down for $100). With 90 participants max that puts $15,000 in the purse.

5) The tournament must come up with a $15,000 matching title sponsor. Other minor sponsorships are encouraged. That puts a minimum of $30,000 in the purse.

6) The tournament course must meet new minimum NT standards. (I won't say what I think those should be, but some of the current tournaments wouldn't meet my criteria)

7) Create an evaluation system to see if #6 is being met and to determine which events retain the NT status for the next year.

This system would encourage greater attendance at NT's to create a "showcase" environment. Players that don't make the cut for the weekend would be encouraged to be part of the gallery for the weekend. As more tournaments are able to meet the standards and the player base grows the number of NT events can be expanded. Also important in this system would be the shared responsibility of seeking sponsorship between TD's and players.

I really like this plan....You get my vote for board member.

I was going to bust out a very similar plan today, but your concept seems pretty good Denny. I like that you have a cut off of the bottom 3rd. I think this particular plan seems cool. A few minor tweaks I would suggest. I think that these should as often as possible, be 2 day tournaments. Saturday becomes the normal day. All players play 2 rounds. Sunday first round is a shotgun start as well. For the final round, NOBODY starts on the back 9. The top 9 groups get tee times, the rest of the field starts on holes 1-9 as if they were holes 10-18. These people have less of a chance to cash. Those that do start on the top holes similar to those that the tee time folks do. This leaves a growing gallery for the final groups. The gallery can even get to like hole 15, then follow the last group to the end.

The MSDGC has figured this plan out. They did it for the top 5 or 6 groups last year, which at the time confused the heck out of me, but if they'd announced it earlier than 5 minutes before the last round, I think it would have been better recieved (I went to hole 12 when I was supposed to go to hole 6, my screw up, but I wasn't expecting the change-up.

I think this plan also will encourage local people, eliminated players, sponsors, etc to come watch the top players on Sunday. It can also mean a more focused approach to where to put your sponsor banners. Hole 1 is a gimme. But the last 3 holes become the place where crowds really start to grow, and hole 18 can get dressed up for Sunday, or even just for the afternoon round. Always have a tournament photographer on hand, even if it's for just the last few groups playing hole 18. That's where the majority of sponsorship bnners will be. 18 should also be a good spectator's hole.

As for sponsorship, it would be nice to get the added cash to bring the total purse higher. But I don't think the stress at this point should be on adding cash, the stress should be on hammering out a good model for a new type of top level tournament that can be run by any number of promoters. If the format becomes successful, it will draw local players to come and watch top players, since the format allows for better spectatorship. It will also allow for local media (which could be scheduled to come by at a certain time to interview the leaders before the 4th round (they'll have a 2 hour break). We need to find better ways to make the game more spectator friendly. I do not think shotgun starts are spectator friendly, but in reality, only a few cards get crowds other than family members and close friends. By building up to the last group, I think we are giving the spectators more of a sense of drama. Drama builds excitement. Excitement builds crowds.

Any huge tournament should have a leader board these days. It could be something that is carried by a tour player. 4 or 5 whiteboards with black tape separating the rows is not a major thing to haul around if you are driving a pickup. Some 2x4s and you have a leaderboard. Not sure how hard it is to have some radios to radio scores from each of the top say, 4 cards back to Tournament central, but I think it's something that would also add to that sense of drama.

Drama is key to making this sport grow. Simple as that. Without drama, there's no necessity for spectatorship. Spectatorship = sponsorship.

I think the MSDGC has figured it out. They have led the way. If the powers that be can learn from this non sanctioned event and build a better tournament plan, we'll all be better off.

I would love to hear what actual touring pros have to add to the conversation

Chris,
Or I could save you the gas money and just write the check to the Mid-Nationals today! ;)



It would be worth the gas money just to go down and play that course :)
Also, I would love to see the entrance fee's raised a little higher, that way there would be a lot more money to be won . . . . although, then the players who don't always cash wouldn't even bother to play leaving the top pros playing against themselves which would inturn make me the guy always finishing DFL so then again, maybe I wouldn't like the idea.

Chris,
Or I could save you the gas money and just write the check to the Mid-Nationals today! ;)



It would be worth the gas money just to go down and play that course :)
Also, I would love to see the entrance fee's raised a little higher, that way there would be a lot more money to be won . . . . although, then the players who don't always cash wouldn't even bother to play leaving the top pros playing against themselves which would inturn make me the guy always finishing DFL so then again, maybe I wouldn't like the idea.



What your saying is that every tournament would be like Kansas City right? :D

Zac... Hypothetical question here, hopefully you answer it instead of skipping over it because I'm a 900-rated amateur nobody...

EVENT ONE: 100 men put up 1,000$ in cash to fuel an event.

EVENT TWO: 400 men put up 10$ in cash to fuel an event.

Which event do you think sponsors would rather fund?

I like the ideas here, i would like to play the devil's advocate here.
I come to wisconsin from michigan, pay $100 out of pocket, miss a few putts and get cut the first day after 2 rounds.
I would be disappointed with myself as well as the tour committee.
What about a consolation event for those that didn't qualify? A saturday toilet tourney, leaving sunday open for spectating? how about the toilet winner gets a bottom seed to the sunday activities? Systematically, that player would be out but it would keep the interest of the lesser players giving them hope that they can qualify again. A thrid of the field wouldn't be hard to shotgun start after the saturday shotgun 1 round. Spectators would then be able to check out their friends and family on saturday and follow the lead groups on sunday?

Just a 1st run idea...thought I'd throw it out there for evaluation.

Zac... you are a *******... first... there is not a WHOLE lot of difference between 10 and 26.... but then you are only 26 so you are incapable of knowing that....

but... your age is irrellevent in this disscussion... I am sure that there are millions of 15 yr olds who are smarter than I and some of the best ideas of their time have been put forth by people younger than 18....

no... I did not call you a ******* because you insult everyone who does not agree with you.... then when you get a little bit of flame (every poster was very tollerent of you till you insulted them all) you post the old why cant we all get along and have a disscussion of adult ideas and opinions...

the reason I called you a ******* is because many MANY people have explained to you in a very clear manner that sponsers COULD CARE LESS HOW MUCH AN ENTRY FEE IS..... they could care less if you were PAID to enter a tournament.... ALL THEY CARE ABOUT IS GROWING THEIR BUSINESS...

you use sponsership in ball golf as an example of how disc golf should work.... MILLIONS of people watch ball golf on tv... the sponsers can go to any sports bar in the country while their event is going on and have a good chance of seeing their name on tv being viewed by lots of people.... THAT is the ONLY reason they sponser....

guess what.... like one of the posters above said.... nobody but the participents give a rats [I'm a potty-mouth!] about darts and that is not gonna change.....

the ONLY way corporate sponsers are gonna pay for disc golf is if millions of people take up the sport like millions of people take up ball golf.... I would love to see that happen but am not holding my breath....

I could go on... but.... whatever.... I will just leave it at *******...

I like the Saturday consolation event. They could even play a morning round at a nearby course and an afternoon round at the main course, making it a 72 hole event with Sunday open to spectate.

I like the Saturday consolation event. They could even play a morning round at a nearby course and an afternoon round at the main course, making it a 72 hole event with Sunday open to spectate.



The only catch to this plan that I can think of after posting is that if you switch it to a different course, the ratings and scorings will change, making the toilet winner ineligable for winning the whole tourney...let me elaborate:

discrX gets cut after the first two rounds. Saturday, the cuts go to another course, different par, different difficulty. discrX wins the consolation tourney and gets to play on Sunday. Mathematically, he is not eliminated. What happens if he jumps enough strokes to cash? is it fair to players that stayed on the first course for the 4 rounds?
I think that the toilet round would have to take place on the same course, same tees...same scoring.
I would be upset if someone that shot a -12 on a pitch and putt pushed me out of cash when I shot my butt off on a harder course.

You're right that the consolation winner shouldn't be able to win the regular event. I think that once you're cut you're cut. Otherwise you're not really talking about a cut, but rather a shuffling of the pools.

I like my new plan. This will work for an A or B tier. Heck, even a C Tier, but the money doesn't matter much at that point.

Lets go with C Tier for example. Pros play for a $60 entry fee. After day 1, anyone in the bottom 1/3 can opt to take the cut. the cut is a $20 refund, offered on the spot. If they take it, no play on Sunday. so, for their $40, they got to find out if they had a chance to cash. If they think they want to play Sunday, they do. If they don't, they make it easier on the TD, make the tournament run smoother on Sunday, and get $20 to spend at the Players party or whatever. They are happy.

On Sunday, we have a shotgun first round. after morning round, all players are shotgun start except for the pros. If there are, say, 6 holes worth of pros, then you rewind everyone 5 holes. The Pro Masters would start on 2, and the last group of pros would start on 1, announced by the TD. All the Pro Open groups get announced. When the last Pro Open group heads off, all other groups other than pros will be 5 holes into the last round. When they finish, they should have enough time to watch the Pro Opens finish. Those who quit on Saturday can spectate and caddy if they like. Or they can be at home, enjoying sunday. 66% of their money went to the purse, but they got to head home or do something else. They donated. They made a decision to quit. For those thinking this would take huge amounts of cash out of the purse, the maximum amount of entry fees this could affect is 11%.

Whatcha think?

We're generating some good ideas here///
How's this:
the tourney lay-out is Fri: 2 rounds shotgun
Fri: cuts bottom third
Sat morning: shotgun morning consolation round for cuts
Sat afternoon: shotgun start for top 2/3rds
Sun: Tee times with final nine

Sat morning winner gets berth to Sun tee times.

This must happen on the same course only, that way there is no discrepency on scoring, level of difficulty or play.

This provides the opportunity for at least 3 rounds, making it worth while for all participants (even those cut) to get their money worth. The consolation players play for trophy only on saturday morning. The winner moves back into the field as a low seed, at least giving him a chance to hang with the big boys.

Now you can flip-flop the sat events, top 2/3 in morning, toilet in afternoon, but this might work.

How do you feel about this?

Hello Matt, you state that, "I think that these should as often as possible, be 2 day tournaments"

We have debated about the MSDGC going to three days, and have not yet decided that it is in our best interests to do so (and our three day plan was exactly as Danny spelled it out).

For the players, what are the advantages of 2 day tourneys AND what are the advantages of 3-day tourneys?

A 3 day event means three quality rounds with no personal excuses. You have enough time to rest and warm up. It also gives you a chance to see the area your in. We have traveled to many interesting locals and cities now, but very few did we get to 'see'. Being able to see them means we can bring girlfriends and wives or whatever.
2 day event means you can work friday and monday. If you play terrible, its only one more day to bear the weight. More people are lickely to be there if it s a two so deeper payout. And if your a linefeeder like i am, that good.

For the players, what are the advantages of 2 day tourneys AND what are the advantages of 3-day tourneys?


Too many 3-day tourneys mean you miss way too much work and can't afford to play as many tourneys.

We were going to play the Gentlemen's Club Classic this year in Vegas, but are now going to skip it since it went to 3-days.

That additional Friday/3rd-day is a cost prohibitor for many...hotel, meals, entertainment, etc...not to mention having spotters and other volunteer help taking the time off. When this affects the # of tourney players playing, the tourney will generally revert back to 2-day weekend tournies. Happened to the KCWO...

Yes, lots of solid ideas!

I am curious if any touring Pro has had significant sponsorship assistance WITHOUT help from a major disc manufacturer.
If so, was the deal positive for both player and sponsor?


Regarding three-day events, I agree with Rhett. Perhaps they will become more popular when touring players don't need a second "job".

The cost/missed work factor is part of why I suggested scaling back the # of NT's to 5.

The argument for having 3 day events for these showcase events is to emulate a 72 hole golf tournament, at least on the weekend. I think it's a good compromise as the 36 hole Friday saves one day of road costs. As sponsorship grows and more players are able to travel, then having 4 day NT's will become feasible.

As I mentioned earlier I am infavor of having players pay an initial entry fee and then be sponsored for the second fee if they make the cut. I also suggested that TD's be required to match entry fees in sponsorship. As a third leg for the table I'd suggest that the PDGA promise to secure at least $50,000 in national sponsorship for the NT's with $8,000 added to each event and $10,000 to the overall.

I'm not suggesting that this happen overnight, but I think it'd be useful for the PDGA to set some challenging medium-term goals (2-5 years) for the NT's and communicate them to TD's and players.

I do think it will help us with attracting major, long-term sponsors to raise the bar for NT's and have fewer of them in the medium-run.

VPO went 3 day a few years ago, worst turnout for the tournament, but it was great, I was able to get back to the store both Friday and Saturday nights to work.

What I'm proposing for NT's would be a 3-day event with a minimum purse of $38,000. It would be the biggest event in the state, one of 5 on the national calendar and an opportunity for everyone involved to demonstrate to potential television sponsors that their money would be well spent in the future bringing live coverage to disc golf fans nationwide. I would hope in one of the best disc golf states in the country that enough people would be able to take a day off work to make an event like that happen.

Maybe this thread could be moved to the PDGA Discussions forum or somewhere more appropriate. There's a lot of good conversation in here.

Moderator?

Zac... Hypothetical question here, hopefully you answer it instead of skipping over it because I'm a 900-rated amateur nobody...

EVENT ONE: 100 men put up 1,000$ in cash to fuel an event.

EVENT TWO: 400 men put up 10$ in cash to fuel an event.

Which event do you think sponsors would rather fund?



When we get players paying $1,000 for a tournament then sponsors will take notice, so if we got 100 players doing this the winner could take home like $50,000 !!!!! Nobody wants to watch disc golf unless it has DRAMA!! And the ONLY way to bring spectators is for the PLAYERS to put up the money. I'm tellin' you guys, when our TOP players are making money people will notice, nobody cares about a $10,000 Tournament.
How could a car company, (say Buick) sponsor disc golf when the car cost more than what a disc golfer makes in a year? Now if disc golfers made more then Buick could put Barry or Kenny in a commerical showing that MONEY can be made in Disc Golf. Right now we're not taken seriously, but if we get PLAYERS to win hundreds of thousands of dollars then people will say "I didn't know you could win money playing disc golf" And that's all we need, is peoples attention, then they'll come and watch.

The first Millionare in anything takes off and blows up, because people want to know about it or how they can do it. Believe it or not when people can't have something, they want it more. Imagine how many people at home would say "I could do that" and go out to practice Disc Golf.

Last note; A mediocre blue collar worker can make about $30,000 a year. A mediocre Pro Disc Golfer makes about $3,000-$5,000. Who wants to do that???

Who wants to play for $3000 - $5000 ? Given it wasnt long ago we played primarily for love of the game and for a fraction of todays $, Id say "I DO !" because today and tomorrow are part of the evolution that is seeing the sport, slowly but surely, and considerably faster than happened with say ball golf, gain bigger exposure support and paydays. :o



I hope this happens....the next generation of Open players might be able to make a good living.

Who wants to play for $3000 - $5000 ? Given it wasnt long ago we played primarily for love of the game and for a fraction of todays $, Id say "I DO !" because today and tomorrow are part of the evolution that is seeing the sport, slowly but surely, and considerably faster than happened with say ball golf, gain bigger exposure support and paydays. :o



I hope this happens....the next generation of Open players might be able to make a good living.



Like what Pro Volleyballers make ? $ 250,000 + ? :o I'd like to thank the world sponsors for making this event happen !!!!! :D

A mediocre Pro Disc Golfer makes about $3,000-$5,000. Who wants to do that???



Hmm, by this definition, there are maybe 50 players worldwide who are "better than mediocre" today. Not sure how to reconcile this with the fact that more than 100 players are rated as "world class" or with watching a 15 year old Junior from Sweden - maybe the 300th best player in the world, park a 400" hole at Worlds ...

Who wants to play for $3000 - $5000 ? Given it wasnt long ago we played primarily for love of the game and for a fraction of todays $, Id say "I DO !" because today and tomorrow are part of the evolution that is seeing the sport, slowly but surely, and considerably faster than happened with say ball golf, gain bigger exposure support and paydays. :o

[/QUOTE]
I second that!

Zac-
Youre not thinking of this in baby steps. I get the feeling that you're saying we shouldn't even try to get sponsors for our events, even if they can only give a couple of pizza's or $100 towards jumbo tosses. EVERY LITTLE BIT COUNTS...ask the TD's.
Do you think that without the interest of many smaller organizers or subsidiary donors, the big guys are going to come in and say..."you know, snowboarding isn't where the real money is at anymore..." or, "Let's make 2007 'Year of Frolf (term used to emphasize the point)'"
It needs to snowball until it's an avalanche out of control...and what starts an avalanche?

It's you being proactive. It's you asking everyone you know if they've heard of disc golf. IT'S YOU SHOWING WHY DISC GOLF DESERVES THE NOTICE OF THE PUBLIC BY YOUR LOVE OF THE SPORT AND YOUR ENTHUSIASM TOWARDS IT!

Start the movement, Zac, or get stuck in the avalanche.

My questions for you is: What can you do to promote the sport beyond talking to others already on the course or a forum?

"A mediocre Pro Disc Golfer makes about $3,000-$5,000. Who wants to do that??? "

I'm sure nobody would purposely choose to "mis-quote" anyone or be mis-quoted
themselves, or have people respond inappropriately to something that was not
even said.....so here is my own exact words:

Imagine how may people at home would say " I could do that" and go out to practice Disc Golf. Last note; A mediocre blue collar worker can make about $30,000 a year. A medicre Pro Disc Golfer makes about $3,000-$5,000 a year. Who wants to do that???

In context I was making a statement concerning spectators "blue collar" worker
who goes to work everyday and earns a living ($30,000) As an avg. person he
makes 10 times more than an avg. Pro. by just going to work.

Why would he have any interest in watching someone else make "LESS' money or
the same amount he does by simply going to work? There is no drama, or drawing
power. Now give this guy a program watching someone making $400,000
throwing a frisbee.........he would freak out that anyone can make that much money at
something that looks so simple to do! He would just HAVE to watch.
Heck he might even think for just one moment HE could throw a frisbee, or his kids.

For Joe Public, to go to work and earn $30,000 is what normal working people
do. What really gets these folks excited is when someone can actual become a
Hundred thousand-aire or Millionaire doing something that looks so simple! That
might get his attention. Heck some guy his age, is making a million throwing a
frisbee..you can hear him yelling....."Martha...check this OUT on T.V....."

With all due respect, most posts to mine are WAY off the topic line. As well is
everyone who is "patting" themselves on their own backs for brilliantly forming how
THEY would run a tournament for EVEN LESS money! Let me remind you
FREE is about as good as it gets....so don't be so quick to pat yourselves
on the back yet, and it doesn't pay the bills.

The fundamental question being avoided , and still seeking to be answered
candidly:

1. "If we will not put more money into our sport, How can we ask other's to?"
(sponsors)
2. " What came first, the player, or the sponsor?"

3. Depending on your answer to #2......."Who than is responsible for the financial
growth of Disc Golf?"

4. Follow-up to #3......."If so than why are they (sponsor or Players) NOT
taking their responsibility seriously or being held accountable.?"

You can keep talking about everything else to avoid these questions as you have.
It's your sport, you can do whatever............

I know.........I know.......you just knew I wouldn't let it go.....!

I agree 100% that bigger purses have a better but not automatic chance to attract the attention of the media. A couple of issues though. If our pros are making only $3K-$5K net a year, where do they come up with the $1K entry fee even once let alone for a series? For them to each get sponsorship individually to cover those fees will be just as difficult as it is to get sponsorship for our current events.

Disc golf faces a media problem more challenging than most sports. To properly cover the action similar to ball golf (which is expensive to cover), disc golf will be even more expensive in terms of cameras and technical requirements. Capturing shots in low lighting winding thru woods will be no mean feat. Special cameras will be needed to slow-mo putting so our shots are as dramatic as putting in BG. Texas hold'em, snowboarding, scrabble and beach volleyball, for example, are much easier to cover.

If each pro out there actually had enough to spend $1000 in entry fees every few weeks, that money would be better spent on new courses and supporting EDGE programs if you truly want to build the sport faster on a solid foundation of new players and interested bystanders who want to watch our best pros compete. Houck and I don't compete at a high level but we discovered that between us we've been involved with designing or advising development on over 10% of the courses in the US in the past 15 years (about 150). How far could our sport have gotten if most our pros had also been doing courses or EDGE-like projects during the past 15 years? That would have been STEPPING UP like the title of this thread.

I agree to many of those points about money and its influence on potential spectators/sponsors.

"If" our biggest events had huge purses then everybody would take notice of our sport.......thats what the public wants, exciting competition with A LOT at stake.....like tens of thousands on the line with the final putt. Its always been part of the fascination with pga events......"if he makes this, its worth 500,000 dollars folks".

If/when our sport gets much more money involved then it would be much easier to obtain the recognition, spectators, and sponsors we so much want. Not to mention how easy it would be to get disc golf on television and build a large tv audience.-

As always, the question is "how do we do that?" If the pdga can figure that out then I truly believe it will only snowball from there and disc golf will explode in every direction.

I agree to many of those points about money and its influence on potential spectators/sponsors.

"If" our biggest events had huge purses then everybody would take notice of our sport.......thats what the public wants, exciting competition with A LOT at stake.....like tens of thousands on the line with the final putt. Its always been part of the fascination with pga events......"if he makes this, its worth 500,000 dollars folks".

If/when our sport gets much more money involved then it would be much easier to obtain the recognition, spectators, and sponsors we so much want. Not to mention how easy it would be to get disc golf on television and build a large tv audience.-

As always, the question is "how do we do that?" If the pdga can figure that out then I truly believe it will only snowball from there and disc golf will explode in every direction.



We need to find some Celebrities and camera folks from ESPN , Fox Sports news , and Planet X , who play disc golf and encourage them on fun shots. It has to be exciting for them to be involved !!!! :D

How far could our sport have gotten if most our pros had also been doing courses or EDGE-like projects during the past 15 years? That would have been STEPPING UP like the title of this thread.



EXACTLY!!!

Zac, you obviously have no respect for volunteers or the folks who have worked so hard to get us where we are today.

What if Chuck or even Duster had been charging for their services? Do you think Wisconsin would have 75 courses?
Of course not. Do you think the Rumbletown Pro weekend would have filled up if Joe or Kurt charged $250 a player?
Hardly.

When I look around to see who has stepped up over the last 15 years, I see volunteers and not many touring pros. I see folks like Chuck and Duster and Randy who DESERVE to charge a fee but don't. They've donated more money and time and merchandise than most average pros will ever make.

Just to be clear, John and I plus several other designers who do it regularly have been charging design fees for close to 10 years on our own projects and many others have earned commissions on basket sales. However, much of the work putting in courses involves brush clearing, chainsawing, cementing, basket assembly, meetings, drawing maps, and prepping scorecards which is mostly done on a volunteer basis along with any time we visit other courses and have been asked for design advice. The fees still don't water down the message that helping to put courses in the ground is one permanent way to boost participation in the sport and eventually boost pro purses.

The thing is...us mediocre discgolfers do it because we love the sport and the competition. Its not about making 3-5,000$ a year...its about practicing so i can make 3-5000$ extra a year....I can have fun and make money, even if its only a couple bucks. And i'm never upset because i didnt make money...Im upset because i played below my level. Also; by practicing all the time, i can stay a decent player until the sport jumps to the next level...And by the way, the sport will jump when the pdga is (no offense) revamped. Younger people with new ideas and directions in which to take the sport. Its growing a little slower than it could be. Look at the things that Chris himing and J. Southwick & S. dodge have done for their events and areas.

The thing is...us mediocre discgolfers do it because we love the sport and the competition. Its not about making 3-5,000$ a year...its about practicing so i can make 3-5000$ extra a year....




Younger people with new ideas and directions in which to take the sport. Its growing a little slower than it could be.



Look at snowboarding for an example, and I use this strictly on the time it took for recognition. It's hard to compare the profits of a $500 snowboard to a $15 disc, but anyway...
It was the grassroots movement that propelled snowboarding into the limelight. The snowboarders were the ones working with reginal sponsors like Bob's Skate and Snow Shop and Bittersweet Ski resort to make events bigger and bigger. THe manufacturers obviously were involved in sponsoring the competitions all the way through, but like PDGA's sponsor program...they probably started off at a lower level and worked their way up to BIG MONEY when big players locally and nationally began to participate. All of a sudden Bob's Skate & Snow Shop Downhill Fest became Burton's Downhill Challenge with Bob still donating, but bigger fish came along. This wasn't done by chance, the sponsors took notice in what they would gain and how they could better their image by giving money to the sport.
If we can't even fill a major tournament, why would a sponsor want to throw money away? We know that we'll have the support of the disc manufacturers (thank you) no matter what, but why would my car dealership get involved when a field of 96 pro/ams with news coverage turns out to be 13 players all together? Do you think that raising the entry fee would convince those other 83 players to sign up?
We can take alot of instruction from other sports, but there isn't a lithmus test to perform or a transparency that we lay down over our sport that worked for a sport like ball golf that has been struggling for support for hundreds of years. It'll take time, volunteers, and alot of small fish to fill a big pond....but then again, that's why we like the sport, to be a big fish in a little pond, to be a barry or kenny while the sport is young. We've got an opportunity to make this sport whatever we want, whether it's something to do on lunch breaks or a travelling professional sport. It's up to us.

We have too many tournaments to tell the truth.

If we had, say 1 event in an area and put all resorces in that tournament, it could be one big one.

But then, what would we do the rest of the year for those that can't travel.

I personally don't have a problem with the current state of tournaments. You know which ones get sponsorship and which ones pay out better.

WARNING: These questions may cause brain damage, and until now have
been completely ignored for this reason. Answer at your own risk.

1. "If we will not put more money into our sport, How can we ask other's to?"
(sponsors)
2. " What came first, the player, or the sponsor?"

3. Depending on your answer to #2......."Who than is responsible for the financial
growth of Disc Golf?"

4. Follow-up to Q#3......."If so than why are they (sponsor or Players) NOT
taking their responsibility seriously or being held accountable.?"

WARNING: These questions may cause brain damage, and until now have
been completely ignored for this reason. Answer at your own risk.

Nevermind.

WARNING: These questions may cause brain damage, and until now have
been completely ignored for this reason. Answer at your own risk.

1. "If we will not put more money into our sport, How can we ask other's to?"
(sponsors)
2. " What came first, the player, or the sponsor?"

3. Depending on your answer to #2......."Who than is responsible for the financial
growth of Disc Golf?"

4. Follow-up to Q#3......."If so than why are they (sponsor or Players) NOT
taking their responsibility seriously or being held accountable.?"

WARNING: These questions may cause brain damage, and until now have
been completely ignored for this reason. Answer at your own risk.



This thread has been whacked from the start.

(Potential) sponsors will support the game only if they feel their support will bring them an improved bottom line.

They don't give a hoot how much entry fees are, or how much players are making for that matter. They want to know how their money/product/investment will bring them business down the line. That's basic marketing, and in this respect DG is no different from selling buggy whips or beer.

The rest of the gibberish you bring up is just that, gibberish.

I think Rhett summed it up well.

Zac,
No offense, but you seem to be the only person in this thread with a closed mind. A lot of good stuff has come out of this thread, but beating the "Let's all go broke trying to grow the sport" horse isn't moving the thread along. The simple reason that players don't invest in the sport is because most players do not have money to invest in the sport. I would be buying targets instead of going to tournaments if I had that kind of cash. You know how many targets I've bought to date? ZERO. And I have 2 acres to put em on.

Growing the sport is all about getting more people playing. By making tournaments more expensive, we start to alienate newcomers who won't pay those fees, thus shrinking the sport. The big money will come when people see our sport as more than a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. Most people (and companies) have never heard of disc golf. Money does not fix that, introducing it to your neighbor does.

Your right, zac. We'll never stand up on our own. We'll never get to the point where ball golf is. Lets just go back to the days where you carried more beers than discs and you could roll a joint on the park ranger's truck :D:p :D

So I'm watching the Sony open on ESPN last night and their talking about just this subject. They showed the payout and that the winner would be recieving $918,000 for their victory. Then one of the commentators said he rememberd back in the 70's there was a tournament that yielded a million dollars to the winner, and now those tournaments are every week. They further discussed that as one tournament gets a bigger purse they others must build up to get the same purse or players wont attend. They one thing that is a major problem at disc golf tournaments is spectating. In a PGA event spectators both pay to get in and pay to watch giving the tournament sponsors advertising for their investment. Tournaments in Disc Golf that have done a good job solving this problem are those which feature dvd's. There are only 4 tournaments right now (that I know of) that are really progressing the tournaments scene. The USDGC which keeps upping the winnings and has spectators and major sponsors, the MSDGC which has a good payout, very sucessful DVD which sponsors can get advertising from, and getting major sponsors like Glacieu; Southern Nationals which had McDonald's on board, and finally the Players Cup which had a huge payout, and its courses provided for spectating. In order to make tournaments more wealthy there has to be spectators, so if anyone needs to step it up its the spectators.

Find a way to get the many numbers of recreational players to come out and spectate at local professional events.

Figure out how to get their attention and we might be heading in a better direction. Unfortunately most spectators at tournaments these days are tournament playing disc golfers and they do not make up a large number of the overall population.

If all area disc golfers that aren't competing in an event each bring two non-golfers to spectate for the final round we will take a huge step forward in the eyes of potential sponsors.

NT's and Majors should all have a cut to the cash-line before the final round. Players that don't make the cut should stick around to spectate and support the future of sponsorship.

Those are both good ideas, but I think a more effective way would be to have a pdga NT event piggy-back a PGA event and offer free admission to the NT with a ticket stub from the pga event. That way people who came to see the pga tourney can see another form of golf for free to build a spectator base, and then there also might be leaked media coverage by those covering the pga event. People who are interested in golf might try disc golf because its less expensive and visually more exciting, and there's more (to borrow a phrase from marshal street) hearbreakers.

I love that idea. Having many pro golf tournaments here in Florida I've been thinking of how best to pitch to the golf tournaments. I think it'd be good to have our final round end before the golf leaders tee on Sunday.

Great idea! What close-knit exposure...

I think getting us to piggy back a PGA event is a fabulous idea. For more than one reason...

I feel one of the major problems facing us right now is that major potential sponsors don't take us seriously. Money is only a small part of the equation, even though everything hinges on it. I believe the main thing is that, to sponsors, we are kids throwing Frisbees in parks. Just like they use to do, and their kids are doing now.
Where's the challenge or sport in that? (their thinking, not my "enlightened" p.o.v.!)
Until they can look at us and see the challenge of golf, nothing major is going to happen. So, how do we fix this?
I say course development (for tournaments) needs to take a new direction. I'm not saying all Fly18 courses, but we need to have major event's courses be around par 70. Yes, some are there now, and heading thatway, but we need more. Illinois is filled with little nine-hole courses and more popping up every time I check the directory. I don't see any more players getting serious! These courses are not generating any more community interest, and in fact are having a reverse effect when the course just becomes the local high school (stoner) hang-out, plagued with vandalism and litter.
Let's stop playing mini-golf (par 3,s and trying to get almost every hole off the pad) and sart playing golf, maybe then it won't be such a stretch of the imagination for companies to "see" golf, and hopefully, some of golf's money.

HEAR HEAR...
We dont throw lids anymore, so why are we always playing on courses that are basically designed for them...I know I know, land is hard to find. But the days of aprroach and putt golf are over. Its not fun. Imagine if Tiger had to play par 3 courses all the time. Discgolf needs to be big...And i mean the courses. Mini-golf is hard to film(the disc is there is 4 sec. And the there is no Drama. Ever been impressed by a 9 under at a dinker course....Its not a big deal. However, ever think about shooting a 60 at Renny gold. Now you are talking. What about a 52 at MSDGC Maple hill course. How wbout a 61 at Winthrop university. And guess what...its easy to FILM and SPECTATE. And guess what else...The best players would rather play them....Why would you want to play 18 holes that you were punished for not getting a 2 on them, instead of rewarded for the birdie.
I respect each person who worked hard throughout the years to bring Dg to where it is....
If anything, look at the wraith....Its changing courses...Hell, i think there should be an age restiction on that thing!

HEAR HEAR...
If anything, look at the wraith....Its changing courses...Hell, i think there should be an age restiction on that thing!


When will I be old enough to throw one? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The bottom line is this. Players are not responsible for the financial growth of disc golf. That is why we pay PDGA membership fees. It is the PDGA's job to make this happen. We as players have a responsibility to represent properly and be great ambassadors for our sport. However, it is the PDGA's responsibility to seek out major sponsorship and promote the sport in a light which would entice the likes of Columbia sports wear or Gatorade. As far as potential television exposure goes, camera friendly venues are a must. Short tight wooded courses(as much as I like them) are not the kind of places that ESPN wants to drag their 5,000 miles of cable and electronical equipment through. The structure of the PDGA needs drastic improvements before ANY potential BIG $$$$ sponsors will ever take us seriously.

The same type of people who play ball golf, play disc golf



Yeah, right :confused: :D:confused:

The same type of people who play ball golf, play disc golf



Yeah, right :confused: :D:confused:



The demographics are the same, if you look at the resources available on demographics for disc golf... I think this is what was meant by that comment..

This was a GREAT thread!!!!! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :D/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

HEAR HEAR...
We dont throw lids anymore, so why are we always playing on courses that are basically designed for them...I know I know, land is hard to find. But the days of aprroach and putt golf are over. Its not fun. Imagine if Tiger had to play par 3 courses all the time. Discgolf needs to be big...And i mean the courses. Mini-golf is hard to film(the disc is there is 4 sec. And the there is no Drama. Ever been impressed by a 9 under at a dinker course....Its not a big deal. However, ever think about shooting a 60 at Renny gold. Now you are talking. What about a 52 at MSDGC Maple hill course. How wbout a 61 at Winthrop university. And guess what...its easy to FILM and SPECTATE. And guess what else...The best players would rather play them....Why would you want to play 18 holes that you were punished for not getting a 2 on them, instead of rewarded for the birdie.
I respect each person who worked hard throughout the years to bring Dg to where it is....
If anything, look at the wraith....Its changing courses...Hell, i think there should be an age restiction on that thing!

I amnot going to read this thread but figured I would pitch in a tthought or two that may be redundant

I like long corses with no OB except for poorly thrown shots and the existing terrain. I believe in the let the toy FLY philosophy. I have never played USDGC so I will not comment on their OB. I am sure some like it and others not so much. I applaud the effort of all the millions of volunteer hours this sport has been built on. I just love to see the TOY FLY FREE.

The same type of people who play ball golf, play disc golf



Yeah, right :confused: :D:confused:



No, ball golfers and disc golfers are different. Ball golfers drink at the 19th hole in a fancy bar. Disc golfers usually do it between hole 5 and 6, siting on a log, and they don't drink it, it's not liquid

just put on that collared shirt. the sponsorship will be rolling in.

WARNING: These questions may cause brain damage, and until now have
been completely ignored for this reason. Answer at your own risk.

1. "If we will not put more money into our sport, How can we ask other's to?"
(sponsors)
2. " What came first, the player, or the sponsor?"

3. Depending on your answer to #2......."Who than is responsible for the financial
growth of Disc Golf?"

4. Follow-up to Q#3......."If so than why are they (sponsor or Players) NOT
taking their responsibility seriously or being held accountable.?"

WARNING: These questions may cause brain damage, and until now have
been completely ignored for this reason. Answer at your own risk.

I invest my entire year playing disc golf, if entry fees were any higher, touring players like me wouldnt be able to afford it. i understand where youre trying to go, but we need sponsors that wanna start at the bottom with this sport and help us grow..

A sponsor needs to get a return on any investing/investment...so unless they are selling a tangible product used in the sport, I'm sorry to say that I don't see a non-related company gambling their money on us.
What nibbles have we had? Red Bull, Salomon, some breweries, Bite Shoes...what/who else? I know there must be more...but why would Budweiser or Adidas drop a million on us? What would we/the PDGA do with it besides sponsor the "Adidas NT"? Would some of it, all of it, or none of it end up in tourney winners' paychecks?

A sponsor needs to get a return on any investing/investment...so unless they are selling a tangible product used in the sport, I'm sorry to say that I don't see a non-related company gambling their money on us.
What nibbles have we had? Red Bull, Salomon, some breweries, Bite Shoes...what/who else? I know there must be more...but why would Budweiser or Adidas drop a million on us? What would we/the PDGA do with it besides sponsor the "Adidas NT"? Would some of it, all of it, or none of it end up in tourney winners' paychecks?



Adidas and Solomon are part of the same company. FYI.

I think that exposure is as important as actual monetary growth directly related to disc golf as far as sponsorship goes. Look at Bite Shoes. They have infiltrated the disc golf market, and when someone say disc golf shoes, most will think Bite. While there may not be much market penetration on the paid side at this point, it's that awareness that will allow that number to grow.

Glaceau sponsored the MSDGC, and I tell you, it opened my eyes to their products. Great sponsorship, all players were happy. It made me start searching them out locally. I am sure people from the Northeast had seen their products before, but never in the same light. Sometimes the quality of the product and it's relevance to disc golf is worth more than a bunch of money. Budweiser may have sponsored a billion tournaments, but their market saturation doesn't make them stand out as a sponsor.

Sanford (the makers of Sharpie) would be smart to sponsor us because we already have them as a sponsor of sorts. They have been responsible for thousands of returned discs, memories, and saved many a rainy day tournament round from a soggy scorecard.

With the right sponsors and the right type of sponsorship, I think Disc golf can jump. Gas stations, fast food, energy drinks, athletic shoes, sport apparel, sun screen, ivy block, pay pal, these are good potential sponsors IMHO.

Bump. Not much has changed in 4 years, usdgc and other majors entry fees are close to the same. Seen a thread where josh anthon was quoted saying some of the same things we discussed back then, I still think this is the answer even if it is only 10 -20 players. if the public sees a large 1st place prize they will try disc golf and realize how hard it really is, the DG videos out now are great for us players who know the game, but it makes the sport look really easy.