I am confused on whether or not this is a one throw penalty. Heres where the rule is stated the first time:

803.05 C (2)
Casual obstacles to stance or throwing motion: The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle unless a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, or if a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole, the player�s lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director). Alternatively, the player may declare an unplayable lie and proceed in accordance with 803.06.

Nothing there about a 1 throw penalty...or in the rest of 803.05 unles you violate the obstacles and relief rule.

Now, the second time its mentioned:

803.06 A
A player may declare his or her lie to be an unplayable lie. The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable. The unplayable lie may be relocated to a
new lie that is: (1) No closer to the hole, on the line of play and within five meters of the unplayable lie; or (2) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, from an approximate lie as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player�s score.

It reads to me that its a 1 throw penalty only if the thower declares his lie unplayable. Is there something I am missing?

Correct. If you are not able to play from that exact lie and choose to move 5 meters, it is considered an unplayable lie and one stroke penalty.

803.06 A
A player may declare his or her lie to be an unplayable lie. The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable. The unplayable lie may be relocated to a
new lie that is: (1) No closer to the hole, on the line of play and within five meters of the unplayable lie; or (2) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, from an approximate lie as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player�s score.

The rule change here is that now relief is on the line of play, i.e., straight back from the target, and not laterally. It used to be that you could take a stroke and move laterally up to five meters, similar to the rule in golf.

So, is it considered an unplable lie whether you 'choose' to move back up to 5 meters or 'have' to move back up to 5 meters?

Example: You disc is leaning on a rock that is 2 x 2 x 2. The disc is directly on the line of play between the rock and the basket. You can not straddle or take a front to back putting position and make a legal stance. If the TD delcares obstacles of this sort as casual, is the player allowed to mark his lie back (say 1 meter) to make a legal stance, and NOT inccur a penalty? What is these kinds of obstacles are not declared casual?

Im really not trying to come up with a way to 'break' this rule, but for some reason I just cant get a good grasp on casual relief. Thanks for the input

This is a bad example because you would get free relief to take your stance behind the rock based on 803.03E, the solid obstacle rule.

You never have to move back up to 5 meters. If your disc is in an IB location where the TD hasn't specified anything special about the area, then you can move your lie back up to 5 meters by using the unplayable lie rule. The only place you can move back up to 5 meters using the casual relief rule is when your disc is in an area specified for casual relief by the TD OR it's located in a spot where the rules state you may take casual relief per rule 803.04C.

If you understand Chuck's answer, he answered the question. If you don't understand the answer, there's a 50/50 possibility that reading the cited rules will create understanding. What I'd do is look around for Rhett Stroh, and not seeing him, kick the rock out of my way! :D

I mainly posted to point something out about "line of play" because you invoked the term incorrectly in your question. "Line of play" is a term of art defined by the rules. Except for lost discs, o.b. discs, discs that land very close to o.b., discs that land where casual relief is allowed, and discs that land in Chuck Kennedy Special Situation Areas, every thrown disc that does not land in the basket, almost miraculously if you don't think about it, lands on the line of play. On most holes I could throw 100 discs blind folded and every single one would land on the line of play. And I'm only 929 rated.

The line of play is freaky that way.

I mainly posted to point something out about "line of play" because you invoked the term incorrectly in your question. "Line of play" is a term of art defined by the rules. Except for lost discs, o.b. discs, discs that land very close to o.b., discs that land where casual relief is allowed, and discs that land in Chuck Kennedy Special Situation Areas, every thrown disc that does not land in the basket, almost miraculously if you don't think about it, lands on the line of play. On most holes I could throw 100 discs blind folded and every single one would land on the line of play. And I'm only 929 rated.

The line of play is freaky that way.



Man I never realized i had pin-point accuracy like that :D :D :D

On most holes I could throw 100 discs blind folded and every single one would land on the line of play.



And of course big exceptions would be when the disc misses a mando or lands OB (which is sometimes likely with your skill level on some holes :D)

The only place you can move back up to 5 meters using the casual relief rule is when your disc is in an area specified for casual relief by the TD OR it's located in a spot where the rules state you may take casual relief per rule 803.04C.


I think you meant 803.05C. You explination does help me understand it, thanks :D Its hard to to find all the cross references to rules....lots of details that you always have to keep in mind.

Yeah, I think kicking that rock out of the way is the best way to go....no headache doing it that way. :D

2 x 2 x 2? you must mean feet, because if you mean inches it is totally possible to take a legal stance in those conditions. just be sure to mark your lie with a marker instead of using the thrown disc, because that will put the rock behind the lie and permit you to move it legally. using the thrown disc as the lie would mean the rock it is leaning against is (probably) partially in front of the lie - which would be the back of the thrown disc. moving an object which is partially in front of your lie is one stroke penalty with no warning.

but if you mean feet, a 2x2x2 rock would certainly be a course feature and not allowed to be moved at all.

I meant feet, and after Chuck pointed out the Obstacles Rule, I see that you get relief from it. Its all about the cross references. I think Im going to create a spreadsheet that helps sum up the rules and spells out the cross references. Should help me get farmiliar with all these confusing rules.

On most holes I could throw 100 discs blind folded and every single one would land on the line of play.



And of course big exceptions would be when the disc misses a mando or lands OB (which is sometimes likely with your skill level on some holes :D)

Mandos! I knew there was an exception I was forgetting. I can't remember the last time I missed a mando. I can't even think of a mando in Michigan, or in Illinois on the course we play.

and of course the one thing that bruce chuck and everyone else FAILED to mention in your scenario is the rules allow for a LEGAL stance NOT YOUR <font color="blue"> preferred stance.... </font> i can't tell you how many times i've had to tell people playing in pdga sanctioned events this...
there are top players through new players that are constantly amazed at that fact :eek:

i love chuck's special area deal also....
if i ever come out of retirement and td again i'm making the entire park a "special condition area" so i can make rules to fit my skill level of play :D

happy holidays to all the rules zealots out there!!!!!

keith

Your confusion stems from your attempt to compare to uncomparable rules and situations.

The first has to do with you being "unable" to physically take a stance on the lie due to a casual obstacle. The second has to do with you "choosing" to relocate your lie for "any reason you want".

Read:

803.04 Stance, Subsequent to
Teeing Off
E. If a large solid obstacle prevents a player from taking a legal stance within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc, the player shall take his or her stance immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play. The player must comply with all the provisions of 803.04 A other than being within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc.




I am confused on whether or not this is a one throw penalty. Heres where the rule is stated the first time:

803.05 C (2)
Casual obstacles to stance or throwing motion: The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle unless a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, or if a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole, the player�s lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director). Alternatively, the player may declare an unplayable lie and proceed in accordance with 803.06.

Nothing there about a 1 throw penalty...or in the rest of 803.05 unles you violate the obstacles and relief rule.

Now, the second time its mentioned:

803.06 A
A player may declare his or her lie to be an unplayable lie. The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable. The unplayable lie may be relocated to a
new lie that is: (1) No closer to the hole, on the line of play and within five meters of the unplayable lie; or (2) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, from an approximate lie as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player�s score.

It reads to me that its a 1 throw penalty only if the thower declares his lie unplayable. Is there something I am missing?

Right....as I said above, after Chuck pointed it out, I could see that casual relief is granted from unmovable objects. Its all about understanding each rules cross reference.

803.04 Stance, Subsequent to
Teeing Off
E. If a large solid obstacle prevents a player from taking a legal stance within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc, the player shall take his or her stance immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play. The player must comply with all the provisions of 803.04 A other than being within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc.


803.05 C (2)
Casual obstacles to stance or THROWING MOTION: The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle unless a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, or if a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole, the player�s lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director). ALTERNATIVELY, the player may declare an unplayable lie and proceed in accordance with 803.06.

[/QUOTE]

Does this apply to all imovable objects in a park or mountain area? It sounds to me that numerous objects could impair a stance or motion and 803.05 would be applicable to them all, like TREES w/ low hanging limbs, garbage cans, TREES, benches, large bushes, play structures, and so on... I know you'd have to be relativley under them. Can you take 5 meters w/ no stroke for those?

:cool:

A. Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing
Motion: Players must choose a stance
which results in the least movement of
any part of any obstacle except as allowed
for casual obstacles by 803.05 C. No relief
is granted from park equipment (such as
signs, trash cans, picnic tables, etc.) as
they are considered part of the course.
Once a legal stance is taken, a player may
not move an obstacle (or hold it back
or bend it) in order to make room for a
throwing motion. It is legal for a player�s
throwing motion to make incidental
movement of an obstacle.
B. Obstacles Between the Lie and Hole: A
player may not move, alter, bend, break,
or hold back any part of any obstacle,
including casual obstacles, between the lie
and the hole, with one exception: A player
may move obstacles between the lie and
the hole that became a factor during
the round, such as spectators, players�
equipment, open gates, or branches that
fell during the round. Where it is not
known if an obstacle has become a factor
during a round, it shall not be moved. It
is legal for a player�s throwing motion to
make incidental movement of an obstacle.
C. Casual Obstacles: A player may obtain
relief only from the following obstacles:
casual water, loose leaves or debris,
broken branches no longer connected
to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful
insects or animals, players� equipment,
spectators, or any item or area specifically
designated by the director before the
round. Obstacles may not be moved if
any part of the obstacle is between the lie
and the hole. The type of relief a player
may obtain is based on the location of the
obstacle and is limited as follows:
(1) Casual obstacles between the lie and
the hole: A player may move obstacles
which became a factor during the round
as described by 803.05 B.
(2) Casual obstacles to stance or throwing
motion: The player must first attempt to
remove the obstacle unless a portion of
the obstacle is also between the lie and
the hole. If it is impractical to move the
obstacle, or if a portion of the obstacle
is also between the lie and the hole,
the player�s lie may be relocated to the
nearest lie which is no closer to the hole,
is on the line of play, and is not more than
fi ve meters from the original lie, as agreed
to by a majority of the group or an offi cial
(unless greater casual relief is announced
by the director). Alternatively, the player
may declare an unplayable lie and
proceed in accordance with 803.06.
(3) Casual obstacles to a run-up: The
player may move the obstacle provided no
part of the obstacle is between the lie and
the hole. No other relief is provided.
D. In situations where it is unclear if
an object may be moved or other relief
obtained, it shall be determined by a
majority of the group or an official.
E. A player shall receive one penalty
throw, without a warning, for violation of
an obstacle or relief rule.
F. A player who purposely damages
anything on the course shall receive two
penalty throws, without a warning, if
observed by two or more players of the
group or an offi cial. The player may also
be disqualifi ed from the tournament, in
accordance with section 804.05 A (2).

I think you have to read the full rule in context, ask the course TD what it means, and be prepared for the possibility that he will later be overruled by the Competition Director. However, after reading the entire rule in context it would seem to me that you get free relief up to five meters straight back from the target only for "the following obstacles: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected
to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players� equipment, spectators, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round," and then only if they cannot be moved under the rule or it would be "impractical" to move them.

In order for relief to be granted by 803.05.C the obstacle must first be a casual obstacle, so none of the permanent obstacles or park equipment listed qualify for relief under that rule.

So as I read it, if the disc lands on the edge of casual water, you may take it back up to 5 meters, without being penalized. If however it lands in a cactus bed, that has not been deemed casual, you may take it back, up to 5 meters and take a stroke. Now for those of you that say the TD should have called it casual, you cannot imagine the odd difficulties players can get into and the TD would never think to consider. In the above I would play a provisional, marking both scores and ask the TD afterwards.

This does bring up an interesting question though. If it is played as a provisional, do I get to throw two discs from the exact same spot? That spot being no greater than 5 meters from the disc. (Always on the line of play)

Alacrity


In order for relief to be granted by 803.05.C the obstacle must first be a casual obstacle, so none of the permanent obstacles or park equipment listed qualify for relief under that rule.

I think where the ruling does not change the lie of the disc you don't play a provisional, you just appeal the ruling of the group. There is a lengthy section in the rules about appeals.

Is 5 meters always the max ?