So, with winter starting to take hold of much of the country, a interesting rules question came up in a round the other day.

A disc landed on a frozen pond. The ice was thick enough to play the disc as it lay. Is the disc O.B.?

The group�s call was the disc is not O.B. until it is surrounded by water, so it was in play. After talking with others, they bring up the point, that the disc is O.B. due to the frozen shore designating the start of the O.B. area.

What is the correct call in this scenario?

water is not OB unless it is specified as such by the TD. what did the TD say about it before the round?

ice is water, so if it was a casual round using local rules, ie the pond is OB, then i would say the disc was OB.

ice is frozen water. therefore it would be OB if the (frozen) water upon which the disc sits is normally an OB body of water.

i wouldn't recommend creating a casual rule to make ice IB unless the water is frozen thick enough that it is clearly safe to walk on though for persons over 200 pounds. the nice thing about OB frozen water is it is so easy to have the disc skip off or slide across it.

water is not OB unless it is specified as such by the TD. what did the TD say about it before the round?

ice is water, so if it was a casual round using local rules, ie the pond is OB, then i would say the disc was OB.

glad we don't get much snow. as snow is water as well.

snow is casual water though -- unless it is resting vertically above an already designated OB area: in which case the presence of snow can be disregarded :D

snow is casual water though


No it's not. The Rules Commitee has ruled in the Q&A that water is water and ice and snow are not water. i.e., you do not get casual relied from snow and ice.


Rule Question: Casual relief: ice and snow
Question: Does the term "body of water" in the casual relief rule extend to bodies of ice and snow? I say the intent of the casual relief rule is limited to water as a liquid since the rule doesn't say "any form of water".
But, it's apparent that others argue a broader interpretation of the word water is intended to include all forms. However, if you feel all forms of water are covered, it makes the rule a nightmare. Snow or ice covered fields would allow casual relief by default unless the TD specifies otherwise.

It seems to make more sense to have fields of snow or ice NOT casual by default. The only exception I can see would be a situation where there are a few small patches of ice (under 1 square meter) where casual relief might make sense for safety reasons. But even this exception may not be necessary because the assumption is that if you're playing in those weather conditions, you should be prepared for less than ideal scenarios on the course.

Summary:

Does the rule granting relief from casual water apply to ice and snow?

Applicable Rules:

803.04 (Obstacles and Relief)

Discussion:

No. The "casual water" listed in the rule is water as it's commonly understood, i.e. in a liquid form. The rules do not grant relief from snow, ice, or even steam should you encounter it.

However, the TD may grant relief from "any item or area" before the round.

If, for example, there is a patch of ice on the course known to be dangerous, the TD could declare it a casual obstacle and grant the players relief from it.

Yours Sincerely,
The PDGA Rules Committee

Dr. Rick Voakes
Harold Duvall
Joe Garcia
Mark Ellis
Conrad Damon
Carlton Howard

Thanks for clarifying Rhett. I was thinking more along the lines of snow is like casual water in the sense that you can play your disc from wherever it lands in it -- and not in the sense of getting relief from it.

to get relief from snow in some places you might have to walk for days and weeks :eek: :D

that said -- would not an OB area still be OB regardless of snow or ice lying vertically above it? (for example a frozen OB pond)

Thanks for clarifying Rhett. I was thinking more along the lines of snow is like casual water in the sense that you can play your disc from wherever it lands in it -- and not in the sense of getting relief from it.

to get relief from snow in some places you might have to walk for days and weeks :eek: :D

that said -- would not an OB area still be OB regardless of snow or ice lying vertically above it? (for example a frozen OB pond)



Snow is easier to play on than Ice...........

After reading the Rules Committee Q&A over my shoulder Kelsey was questioning how many courses play through terrain that includes steam vents. Are people playing casually through the geyser infested grounds at Yellowstone?

But I said, you could land in a patch of fog on a mountainous course like those low flying clouds we saw at Timberlee.

i was joking we get snow about every hundred years or so. oh i am only guessing

that said -- would not an OB area still be OB regardless of snow or ice lying vertically above it? (for example a frozen OB pond)


That depends. If the OB is defined by the always-crappy method of saying completely surrounded by water, then frozen over water is not OB. If the superior methed of defining an OB line that is not the water's edge is used, then it would still be OB. :)

Ever ripped a roller on a frozen lake ? Brrrrrrrrr............. :cool:

Here is something......................if the lake is partially Inbounds and your disc hits the ice and it keeps sliding towards out of bounds , is it still considered inbounds ?

Never walk on a frozen lake or pond. You have no idea how strong the ice is. People die all the time walking on a pond without being actual residents of the area who know the temperatures for the past 3 weeks, which is how long it takes to make 5 inches of ice. You go to a tournament, the pond is frozen, you don't know that 3 days ago it was 50 degrees and all the ice is bulshit ice and can't hold a 50 pound boy never mind a fatso pig like you. And when you break through the ice and start swimming in 32 degree water you have 60 seconds to live, you are a dead man, nobody can save you.

Never walk on a frozen pond in a strange town. You will die.

Never walk on a frozen pond in a strange town. You will die.





Good point, but here's a better one. Never live in an area where it could be below 32 degrees for 3 weeks straight in order to make 5 inches of ice!

About four years ago, during my first icebowl, I my drive ended up on frozen ice in the middle of the lake. That day there was an ice fishing tournament, so i figured i was safe to walk 300 feet into the middle of the lake. The frozen lake was deemed inbounds before the tournament. According to the ice fishers, the ice was more than 9" thick. I threw my upshot, parked it... but fell on my aSSS.

About four years ago, during my first icebowl, I my drive ended up on frozen ice in the middle of the lake. That day there was an ice fishing tournament, so i figured i was safe to walk 300 feet into the middle of the lake. The frozen lake was deemed inbounds before the tournament. According to the ice fishers, the ice was more than 9" thick. I threw my upshot, parked it... but fell on my aSSS.



Erick doesn't have to reminisce about tournaments from years past, just ask him about losing his favorite disc out on the barely frozen pond at Rutgers on Saturday. :D