I don't want to create a thread under tournaments about this, but the schedule says Wednesday thru Saturday. Can someone confirm if this is true? If so, what is the logic behind making it effectively a three day tourney (I'm assuming the semis and finals are on saturday)?

There was a PDGA survey inquiring whether more people would come to Pro Worlds if it was shortened by a day or two, and the majority response was yes. I wonder if that is the reason.

Look at the results of the member referendum on p. 90 of the latest DGWN (#75) and you'll see the support for a shorter Worlds (931 to 738). Format is tentatively 2 rounds a day for everyone on Wed-Fri with the usual cut to the semis and finals on Sat.

Just don't do that to the Ams. I prefer a longer event with more rounds. As much as I move up and down in the order, it gives me a chance to play with more players. Even if I tend to consistently end up on cards full of Texas players every year. :cool:

Wow, I was hoping it was a typo. The weeklong excursion of competitive golf, golf, and more golf was a major attraction of worlds for me.

**** surveys. Did they just survey the weak and feeble? :D

Just the poor non-Orangebloods... :)

The problem has been the dropoff in Open field size at Pro Worlds, not Am Worlds attendance. There are Pros who stay away when they compare the cost/benefit of Pro Worlds versus the USDGC, especially players outside North America. Even among older pros, it gets pretty grueling when the practice time is considered. Worlds 2006 TD, Pete May, specifically requested the option to host the event with 6 rounds before semis as part of their bid. So, we'll see how it goes.

I understand the move for a professional player that must consider the time on the road versus potential return, just wanted to put in my preferences from an Am point of view where it is more often considered a disc golf vacation and chance to see the players you only see at worlds year after year. As a player whose goal is the make the first cut, the more I get to play, the better I like it. :cool:

I understand the move for a professional player that must consider the time on the road versus potential return



You're kidding. Right. I know very people who think that way. The investment for both options is similar. The two days extra lodging is probably less than 15% increase in total cost. In other words, the economic calculation is similar in either option: it's expensive and I must take a week of leave.

However, if attendance improves, it's a good move. I'm just concerned that many of the survey respondents who said they were more likely to attend a shorter event are those who usually don't attend worlds and won't attend even if the event were shorter. In other words, their vote shouldn't count as much. :p

There also were those who don't attend Worlds anyway who voted 'no', likely more than 'yes'. :)

Chuck, you're way too influenced by numbers. Remember there's "lies, damned lies and statistics". You should consider taking a vacation out in the woods where you can see nothing but trees. There's no forest just lots and lots of trees.

Disc golf "professionals" are a weird breed anyway. Since 99.9% of pro's don't make their living playing how can you be a "pro". Must be an ego thing ....

Maybe you BOD members would have a different view of the worlds and USDGC tournaments if you had to earn your way in.

I'll leave that one alone and just state that for me, a dedicated amateur disc golfer, the worlds tournament is a vacation level event, and the total immersion into disc golf for a week and the social factor are the reasons I attend. I have fun, and will continue to attend as long as it's fun.

I know people love to play so when I host the Am Worlds in Milwaukee in 2007, you're going to play 3 rounds of 24 holes the first 3 days. Then you'll finish out the week with 2 on Thursday, 2 on Friday, 2 on Saturday and then the final 9 on Sunday.

ok - JUST KIDDING.

I do believe in more golf played = more fun at Worlds. I have played in 10 worlds now (I'm 27) and I view it as a week off of work and a time to spend well-earned money while hanging out with hundreds of friends.

Maybe you BOD members would have a different view of the worlds and USDGC tournaments if you had to earn your way in.



I've earned my way into Pro Worlds every year I've played and have probably been at more Worlds that I haven't played than all but a handful of people.

If it's truly about the fun then we could drop entry fees to $15 just to cover trophies, right? Even though few pros make their living at DG, they still have to take the vacation time and spend the money for travel, lodging and entry fees to play. They can play at home cheaper than on the road. But at least they can choose to come earlier and play courses at the venue, including others in town, rather than being "forced" to do so in order to practice up to 6 different courses at some Worlds.

We're not talking about Am Worlds here anyway which will continue to be slanted more toward fun than competition so Ams need not worry.

We're not talking about Am Worlds here anyway which will continue to be slanted more toward fun than competition so Ams need not worry.


So I should re-think playing Pro Masters next year and go with the move from Advanced Masters to Advanced instead? Because I like to have fun. If the focus of Pro Worlds isn't fun, then I'll stick to playing Am Worlds.

Come on, Chuck. There isn't enough critical mass in disc golf to have multiple super-Majors. USDGC is the real deal for the hardcore. It's very difficult to get into, but if you are any good you can get in and if you are really good you can win some money. (Great Money in disc golf terms, but in reality finishing 10th in the most prestigious tourney in disc golf probably only barely covered expenses.)

Worlds is like more like a Disc Golf Convention. The vast majority of people that go have no shot at winning it. They are on vacation competing in very cool disc golf event.

And I don't think $15 entry fees would cover the costs to put on the event, but I could be wrong. :)

And I don't think $15 entry fees would cover the costs to put on the event, but I could be wrong.



Remember that entry fees and more go into the payout so event expenses at Pro Worlds are completely paid from sponsorship.

I find it rather typical that the PDGA asks for feedback, gets a pretty good size vote (compared to elections) on this topic and some of you are questioning their choice to try it and see.

I'm not questioning the PDGA's choice to try this. I'm questioning Chuck Kennedy's assertion that Am Worlds is about fun and Pro Worlds isn't. :p

I voted for the shorter Worlds and I hope to attend more from here on out.

Perfect format for me would be 4 days with 1 round a day on a par 66 or higher course, cut on 4th day to final.

This would give more time for fun both on and off the course.

Even though few pros make their living at DG, they still have to take the vacation time and spend the money for travel, lodging and entry fees to play. They can play at home cheaper than on the road. But at least they can choose to come earlier and play courses at the venue, including others in town, rather than being "forced" to do so in order to practice up to 6 different courses at some Worlds.



I'm a bit confused, Chuck. What part of the quoted statement is not also true of Ams? Do you not think we also pay money for travel, lodging, and entry fees (or that perhaps we get some super discounted Am rate on travel and lodging)?

And if I'm still employeed come August, I'll have to use precious vacation time for that.

Your insinuation that the Pros' time and concerns are more valuable or valid than the Am players' is insulting. Perhaps this is not how you meant it...but it's how I read it.

Is this where someone breaks out the "We are all Pros, and yet we are all Ams" statement?

If Pro Worlds was only about competition, then attendance would be no bigger than an NT event. And if Am Worlds was only about fun, then why is there a semifinal cut? Both events still lie squarely on the line between fun and competition.

I'm questioning Chuck Kennedy's assertion that Am Worlds is about fun and Pro Worlds isn't.



I'm just going on what we hear from both groups. What ams think is fun is slightly different from what pros think is fun. With Juniors becoming a larger part of Am Worlds, family issues are more important. Some aspects of a venue are more important for Am than Pro Worlds. Pros, on balance, seem to prefer fewer and tougher courses played more often. Ams, on balance, seem fine with playing as many courses as possible. I may be wrong but I believe many pros would trade a little fun if it meant more cash in the purse. So, it's not a black or white thing but slightly different shades of grey.

Rooster, none of those comments above are absolute black and whites so please don't read them that way. The facts are that:
- Open fields have declined at Pro Worlds.
- Top international Pros are going to the USDGC instead of Pro Worlds.
- We've heard from pros at all levels that Worlds is not a good investment in terms of time/$$.
- Fewer rounds on fewer courses will reduce cost for pros making it at least a better value even if purses can't be improved to match USDGC. And we now have the voting results for additional support.
- Am Worlds is selling out in some divisions each year.
- Fewer rounds on fewer courses would also reduce cost for Ams. But it's a solution for a problem that doesn't seem to be there based on the popularity of the current format. That's not to say individual Ams don't try to be as cost conscious as pros when deciding to attend or actually attending Worlds.

- Open fields have declined at Pro Worlds.


Have you compared attendance to entry fees? How much was pro Worlds entry last year? Isn't it around $200?

Base entry fee at PW2001 was $170 and it was maybe $180 or $185 at PW2005. It hasn't changed much since even before that when it might have been $150 in 1995. USDGC is at least $225.

The decision to compress the schedule of the 2006 Augusta Pro Worlds was made by myself and tournament co-director Pete May. It was arrived at based upon our personal experiences in running and competing in events, as well as numerous conversations we had with players and tournament directors on the subject.

A week long tournament is grueling to many competitors and very taxing on the event staff and volunteers. It is no wonder that many host teams suffer from major burnout after they run the event and some even disappear from the disc golf scene for a few years. We made a list of our primary goals for the event and we feel strongly that our planned schedule will allow us to achieve the vast majority of these goals.

The event has not been shortened that much in terms of the amount of golf played. The schedule has just been made more efficient so that the singles competitions can be run in 4 days. Players making the finals will only be playing one round less than they played in Pennsylvania last year. This does not mean that you will be rushed. The schedule allows plenty of time for everyone to compete and socialize in a relaxed manner. A big advantage we have is that all four courses are within five or six minutes of the tournament hotel.

Here is the jist of the schedule:

Tuesday - Field Events, Mixed Doubles, Practice
Wednesday - Singles (2 rounds)
Thursday - Singles (2 rounds)
Friday - Singles (2 rounds)
Saturday - Singles (Semi-finals and Finals)

We also have activities planned for every evening:
Tuesday - Players Meeting / Opening ceremonies
Wednesday - National Disc Golf Center grand opening/ribbon cutting/Barbecue dinner
Thursday - PDGA Banquet
Friday - Fly-Mart
Saturday - Awards & post event party

Regards,
Brian Graham
Co TD - 2006 Pro Worlds

Just don't do that to the Ams. I prefer a longer event with more rounds. As much as I move up and down in the order, it gives me a chance to play with more players. Even if I tend to consistently end up on cards full of Texas players every year. :cool:


.
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... don't worry Gary ... we see your point & share the same sentiments here ; where it matters in '06 ... :cool:

Thanks Wayne, I thought ya'll might see it that way.

Am Worlds is going to continue to be a longer event than Pro Worlds regardless of how many actual rounds are played in order to handle the huge Advanced field size that required four pools in Des Moines. Each year, the schedule will likely require some days with one round instead of two to get everyone the same number of rounds on the same courses before and after the shuffle.

For those who want a more compact majors experience, the Mid-Nationals is 6 rounds with three courses played twice in each division. Tee off on Thursday afternoon and finish by Noon on Sunday. We'll probably be able to maintain that schedule into the future with several new courses being developed there that should stay ahead of the increasing field sizes we expect (hope) to see at Highbridge each year.

Bring back Worlds Doubles and play it on Monday!!

The schedule looks fine to me. You could get there that weekend and play all the courses a few times. Will the NDGC courses be used for the worlds?

Only Mixed Dubs

Bummer. Will there be a big event the saturday before worlds anywhere? :confused:

Here is the jist of the schedule:

Tuesday - Field Events, Mixed Doubles, Practice
Wednesday - Singles (2 rounds)
Thursday - Singles (2 rounds)
Friday - Singles (2 rounds)
Saturday - Singles (Semi-finals and Finals)

We also have activities planned for every evening:
Tuesday - Players Meeting / Opening ceremonies
Wednesday - National Disc Golf Center grand opening/ribbon cutting/Barbecue dinner
Thursday - PDGA Banquet
Friday - Fly-Mart
Saturday - Awards & post event party




--Forcing the Mixed Doubles people to run around during lunch trying to win Distance/Putting World Titles (no time for Skillshot)?
Then, don't forget the awards for mixed doubles that no one is around for anyways, but causes the top players to stuff something in their face to still be late for the mandatory players meeting. We had 21 mixed doubles teams, most of the top players as well. Why stress everybody out?

Didn't forget that most everyone loved the concept used in Des Moines of hosting Mixed Doubles two days prior to Worlds start, then Field events and/or a day of rest right before Worlds. I guess people voted for the "I've got a large mouth capacity, cram it down my throat" approach. I just know it didn't work very well last year and many players were frustrated and stressed.

--Anybody consider what has happened in two of the last three Pro Worlds when rounds are canceled prior to completion? How do you allow for any flexibility in accounting for Mother Nature with a two round a day every day schedule?

So if a player plays in Mixed Doubles and makes the finals, they will be playing 10 er, 9.5 consecuative Championship Rounds of golf in 5 consecutive days? Plus nightly events, cram baby cram!

The survey question did ask if this type of condensed schedule would "significantly increase the chances of your attending"

931 said yes

That is a lot of new Worlds players :eek:

I gotta go start training for this right now. Oh, and sign up cause this babies filling this year. The people have spoken.

why couldn't mixed dubs be on Monday ??

Please note that the preliminary Pro Worlds schedule posted above is merely a rough draft and will almost certainly be tweaked and adjusted several times before we come up with the final schedule. Anyone wishing to share their concerns or offer constructive advice pertaining to any facet of the event, is encouraged to contact me personally by phone or e-mail as we will not be debating these matters over this message board.

A few notes of interest:
- We have already discussed running Mixed Doubles on Monday and are leaning in that direction.
- The mixed doubles and field events awards ceremony will take place during the mandatory players meeting on Tuesday evening.
- There will be a SuperTour Event in Atlanta (2 hour drive from Augusta) the weekend before Pro Worlds. As a courtesy to the Atlanta club and a convenience to traveling players wishing to play in that event, we will not be scheduling any official Worlds events on those days.

Please note that the final schedule will accomodate the majority of competitors. While a 7 day long event (mixed dubs, field events, rest day, singles) might be more convenient for a few of you, the reality is that a week long schedule is not attractive to the majority of PDGA members or the event staff.

Anyone wishing to volunteer their time as event staff or a volunteer are asked to contact me as well. I can promise you this.... You will not want to miss this event!

Regards,
Brian Graham
Brian@EpicenterDiscGolf.com

Ok my mind has changed. I now like the shortened schedule because it reduces the consistancy in which you have to play to win so now it is possible for players who aren't as good to have a few great rounds and finish near the top. :D

As a non-touring player I'd like for the Worlds to be a one round a day for Tuesday thru Friday on a par 66 to 72 course, then the final on Saturday on a similar course. All courses should be correctly designed for each divisions top 25% average. No pitch and putts for Open or Masters.

I'm not interested in any doubles, long drives, putting or tiddly-winks, just golf.

The rest of the days time should be filled with checking out the local area and chillin'. Last years schedule seemed way to breaknecked to me and I didn't even enter any of the tiddly-winks contests.

This being said, I am more than happy with any format.

Chuck, you're way too influenced by numbers. Remember there's "lies, damned lies and statistics". You should consider taking a vacation out in the woods where you can see nothing but trees. There's no forest just lots and lots of trees.

Disc golf "professionals" are a weird breed anyway. Since 99.9% of pro's don't make their living playing how can you be a "pro". Must be an ego thing ....

Maybe you BOD members would have a different view of the worlds and USDGC tournaments if you had to earn your way in.

I'll leave that one alone and just state that for me, a dedicated amateur disc golfer, the worlds tournament is a vacation level event, and the total immersion into disc golf for a week and the social factor are the reasons I attend. I have fun, and will continue to attend as long as it's fun.




I hate these kinds of comments. Numbers are what they are. Statistics don't lie, people do. If stats are used to mis-direct from the truth it has nothing to do with the numbers but more to do with the presenter.

The real problem lies (pun intended) in not knowing how to ask the question. As James pointed out, who answered the poll? I specifically did not answer the question in the poll because while indeed I am more likely to attend a shorter event, the reality is that means a one day event for me. That is, until my kids are old enough to travel with me, I'm not going to worlds (much as I want to).

The problem with relying on polls like this is that they are structured by someone who is not versed in trying to get to the real issue. This is unfortunate because the conclusion may be incorrect. Nonetheless, that doesn't make the stats bad or wrong. It simply means that one has to use judgement when looking at the numbers.

BTW - there should have been a number of questions including, have you attended worlds? If so would a shorter worlds better suit you? or even better, if you've attended worlds in the past but have stopped, would a shorter worlds entice you to return?

If you were really playing by the numbers, the smaller divisions wouldn't need to play as many rounds as the larger divisions. All of the Womens divisions at both Am and Pro Worlds would not need to play more than 4 rounds to fairly determine a champ. Likwise, the over 59 divisions would do fine with 2 or 3 rounds.

However, this won't happen even if it makes sense based on the numbers because decisions pertaining to Worlds are only partly about the numbers. The Am Worlds format seems successful and growing so the cuurent formula will likely be retained as long as there are places who can host the growth.

Pro Worlds participation had been stagnating so ideas on how to improve it were sought from the participants and members. And, just as important, locations haven't exactly been stepping up to the plate to host the Pro Worlds. A shorter format was seen to appeal to both potential hosts and to players, so we'll see if the approach works starting with Augusta this year (and the leading candidate for hosting 2007).

all i wanna know is if the 2MR will be in effect, or will players be able to turn crappy shots into drop-ins?

ok, one more - will both the new, very real double jeopardy of stroke plus distance for lost discs be enforced while the old, very rare double jeopardy caused by certain cases of the 2MR not be?

Well, I think they should try it and see what happens. If attendance suffers further, it is not like future TDs have to make the same mistake. It's no different from the Brent Hambrick and DGLO experimenting with their 1-round-per-day format. If that was not working for their sponsors, players and volunteers, they'd do something different the next time.

Were they really one round a day? That is sweet! I might have to play the Hambrick again.

I wish the PDFO, SS, PP and EYC would be one round a day on there long to longs, that would be the ultimate. Every course with a layout approaching par 66 should go to that format for their majors. Open and Masters don't want to play pitch and putt after a long trip, leave that for local league play and monthlies.