ellswrth
Nov 17 2005, 08:22 PM
I played in a doubles tournament with a guy who tried to convince me that if the first person on a team putts, the second person can still putt from that lie--even if the first person holed out. I couldn't find any mention of this situation in the PDGA doubles rules (http://www.pdga.com/rules/doubles.php), so I thought I'd ask here. It sounds like a stupid question, but it causes some real controversy at a recent tournament.

Would the second putt be considered a practice throw? Or is he right?

ck34
Nov 17 2005, 08:25 PM
Better read the doubles rules again. The answer is explicit that the second player cannot throw if (s)he cannot improve the score for the team on that hole.

Greg_R
Nov 17 2005, 08:33 PM
EDITED: OK, I read the pertinent rules in the doubles rules area: In the Best Shot and Tough Shot formats, the second player does not throw if the first player has holed out. If you are playing Best Disc format and your partner has holed out, you do not throw unless you can improve on your partner's score. Any throw made which cannot possibly improve a team's score on a hole is a practice throw.

To play devil's advocate, what if someone hit a blind ace and then the teammate threw a drive on that hole? Is that also a practice throw (for a 2P!)

the_kid
Nov 17 2005, 09:02 PM
EDITED: OK, I read the pertinent rules in the doubles rules area: In the Best Shot and Tough Shot formats, the second player does not throw if the first player has holed out. If you are playing Best Disc format and your partner has holed out, you do not throw unless you can improve on your partner's score. Any throw made which cannot possibly improve a team's score on a hole is a practice throw.

To play devil's advocate, what if someone hit a blind ace and then the teammate threw a drive on that hole? Is that also a practice throw (for a 2P!)



I doubt it would be enforced if the 2nd player and the card had no idea that he aced. :D

bruce_brakel
Nov 17 2005, 09:09 PM
Technically, yes. Under the future provisional rule you might be able to declare a provisional and throw without penalty.

ellswrth
Nov 21 2005, 11:30 AM
Thanks Chuck,

I don't know how I missed that section. Thanks for pointing it out.

Matt

Alacrity
Nov 21 2005, 12:10 PM
Now I am going to muddy the waters. If both players have payed into the ace pot then what do you say? I believe player 2 would have legal grounds to complain if unable to throw.


EDITED: OK, I read the pertinent rules in the doubles rules area: In the Best Shot and Tough Shot formats, the second player does not throw if the first player has holed out. If you are playing Best Disc format and your partner has holed out, you do not throw unless you can improve on your partner's score. Any throw made which cannot possibly improve a team's score on a hole is a practice throw.

To play devil's advocate, what if someone hit a blind ace and then the teammate threw a drive on that hole? Is that also a practice throw (for a 2P!)

ck34
Nov 21 2005, 12:30 PM
Ace pots are technically won by the team and not the player. So, if the rules don't allow the other partner to throw on a hole then that's the way it goes. Team members can determine how the pot will be split between them based on who actually throws the ace. It was usually 70/30 or 60/40 with the partners I had.

gnduke
Nov 21 2005, 12:39 PM
The question has been raised at World Doubles a few times, and John has allowed for the second player to throw at the ace even when it is known that the first player has aced.

ck34
Nov 21 2005, 12:45 PM
My comment was more about how the fundamental rule should be interpreted. A TD like Houck can always make an exception for an event.

gnduke
Nov 21 2005, 12:49 PM
Just passing on a little info.

It might be worth adding the information to a doubles Q&A so it is interpretted the same way at all tournaments.

jconnell
Nov 21 2005, 04:39 PM
Now I am going to muddy the waters. If both players have payed into the ace pot then what do you say? I believe player 2 would have legal grounds to complain if unable to throw.


EDITED: OK, I read the pertinent rules in the doubles rules area: In the Best Shot and Tough Shot formats, the second player does not throw if the first player has holed out. If you are playing Best Disc format and your partner has holed out, you do not throw unless you can improve on your partner's score. Any throw made which cannot possibly improve a team's score on a hole is a practice throw.

To play devil's advocate, what if someone hit a blind ace and then the teammate threw a drive on that hole? Is that also a practice throw (for a 2P!)





I don't understand why the second player would *need* to throw after his/her partner had aced. Technically, in best shot doubles, only one of the shots can count and the shot not used is forgotten. If it's not counted towards the final score, can it count toward the ace pot?

--Josh

Alacrity
Nov 21 2005, 05:14 PM
Yes, a seperate ace pot is almost a seperate contest of indivuals.



Now I am going to muddy the waters. If both players have payed into the ace pot then what do you say? I believe player 2 would have legal grounds to complain if unable to throw.


EDITED: OK, I read the pertinent rules in the doubles rules area: In the Best Shot and Tough Shot formats, the second player does not throw if the first player has holed out. If you are playing Best Disc format and your partner has holed out, you do not throw unless you can improve on your partner's score. Any throw made which cannot possibly improve a team's score on a hole is a practice throw.

To play devil's advocate, what if someone hit a blind ace and then the teammate threw a drive on that hole? Is that also a practice throw (for a 2P!)





I don't understand why the second player would *need* to throw after his/her partner had aced. Technically, in best shot doubles, only one of the shots can count and the shot not used is forgotten. If it's not counted towards the final score, can it count toward the ace pot?

--Josh

pnkgtr
Nov 27 2005, 06:38 AM
I believe that you can putt if you don't need to in match play without penalty.