Yep some will bi@tch about another new thread on same old recent subject. I say too bad. I am making my own thread and thats that. So get over it !!

Anyway, I got a 2006 World's CFR Wraith at USGDC @ 168 grams. Also got a Pro Wraith 170g.
The CFR is way understable and flips in a heartbeat. The Pro is pretty Overstable similiar to my Orc.
I like the CFR because it makes a great hyzer flip. And it goes and goes and goes , keeping the line. I think it will eventually replace my Champ 171 Sidewinder. Both do they same thing but I believe CFR blows it away in distance.

I really like this new World's CFR. How about you guys ??
Its also very very predictable.

I personally found the CFR Wraith quite a bit more overstable then the Pro Wraith. I throw my Pro Wraith with a hyzer and it flips a little, glides and then hyzers out. If I throw the CFR Wraith flat, it will hyzer out fairly fast.

I personally like the Pro Wraith a lot better than the CFR Wraith

Thats interesting !!
Could that be inconsistency in the production and manufacturing process of the CFR ?? Some doing this while others doing that.

I throw both CFR and Pro. The Pro less stable than the CFR, especially during its high speed part of the flight. Of course the Pro will get beat up quick and become flippy as all hell.

IMO the wide wing takes up alot of the plastic and makes the top plate a tad too thin...therfore too flippy. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

i think the pros are all pretty stable. when new they can be thrown hard without turning too much. cfrs seem very inconsistant. my new 165 cfr most definately has more turn than my semi-used 170 pro.

Yep some will bi@tch about another new thread on same old recent subject. I say too bad. I am making my own thread and thats that. So get over it !!





At least you are being defensive ahead of time.

I personally found the CFR Wraith quite a bit more overstable then the Pro Wraith. I throw my Pro Wraith with a hyzer and it flips a little, glides and then hyzers out. If I throw the CFR Wraith flat, it will hyzer out fairly fast.

I personally like the Pro Wraith a lot better than the CFR Wraith


I agree 100%. I honestly dont understand it when people say the CFR's are hyzer flip discs or that the ProLines are better in the wind and so forth...its completely the opposite, unless there is an inconsistency in the plastic...

...unless there is an inconsistency in the plastic...



By George, I think he's got it! :D

I've got two CFR 174's and two Pro 174's. I find that the Pro is more stable and holds my line much better. The CFR's hyzer out on me too fast - at least they did when I first started throwing them. Now that my power has increased they might be better? I'll have to report back on that later...

I've got two CFR 174's and two Pro 174's. I find that the Pro is more stable and holds my line much better. The CFR's hyzer out on me too fast - at least they did when I first started throwing them. Now that my power has increased they might be better? I'll have to report back on that later...



So when you say "more stable" do you mean more overstable or straighter? Because different people use that term to mean to completely opposite things.

Maybe I should send out a memo. :D

Quote:
"I agree 100%. I honestly dont understand it when people say the CFR's are hyzer flip discs or that the ProLines are better in the wind and so forth...its completely the opposite, unless there is an inconsistency in the plastic"

Flyinghigh, I think it has to be inconsistency in Manufacturing of CFR. There is no other explanation. I know from the git go CFR has been way understable. And now its flipping more than my old sidewinder. Its great because its a perfect hyzer flip but sux when I need a new one and new one may be overstable or understable.
That bites !!!

I need similar descriptions from the Avenger too in different plastic.

The CFR's hyzer out on me too fast - at least they did when I first started throwing them.



I found the same thing. The Pro version glides farther than the CFR before hyzering out. However, the CFR version still went just as far as my other long range drivers (Orion LS, X-Avenger and Z-Avenger). The Pro version went longer. They also took a lower flightpath than the X-Avenger and Orion, but that's probably because I hyzer flip those discs and have to throw the Z-Avenger and Wraiths flat to slightly anhyzer to get them to fly straight.

I need similar descriptions from the Avenger too in different plastic.



Are you asking for a comparison between the X and Z Avenger?

If so, I find that there is a significant stability difference between the two. The X is a bit understable at high speeds but has a decent, reliable fade and the Z is much more resistant to turn and has similar fade. I find that it's a bigger difference than I'm used to between plastics. I also find that the Z I have is much flatter than the X, so that could have something to do with it, too.

I bought two CFR Wraiths, one was aYellow 172 and the other a 168 pink. I immediatly disliked the Yellow one , it was just not a disc i was looking for becasue it was so overstable and not predictable like most other overstable plastic, very squirrelly. The pink 168 is now a go to for me. It is very LONG and predictible in a head wind, seems in a head it takes a very similar line with similar distance to a valk thrown in a slight tail which is very usefull to me.

DnD, I am confused... How is a disc both super overstable AND squirrelly? I just don't get how those two descriptions have anything to do with each other. :confused:

I figured i would get that response....lol

Maybe squirrelly wasnt the best word. What I meant was, sometimes it would just take an immediate spike, like a Z xtreme or something, and sometimes a more firebird like hyzer with the same release. (and maybe it has more to do with me then the disc but no other discs does that me) But because I liked the Pro so much(besides how fast it beat up) I knew I could find a CFR that I liked by switching color and weight. Luckily I found the right one for me on the second purchase.

DnD, I am confused... How is a disc both super overstable AND squirrelly? I just don't get how those two descriptions have anything to do with each other. :confused:



Matt, I bet you would agree that at least half of the consistancy issues are do to a lack of knowlege of the disc.

I think it is pretty hard to throw all the new drivers consistantly if one is always getting the newest one. It takes a lot longer than people think to REALLY know a disc.

Disclaimer -- The following statement is extremely anal:
Also, there is no such thing as "hyzering out." Hyzer and anhyzer are terms that refer to the angle that a disc is released. When I throw a stable disc, it flies straight and then fades left or acts overstable at the end of it's flight (when it slows down).

That is why we have the term, hyzer flip. You release an understable disc with a hyzer angle and it flips up.

I think it has more to do with not being able to put into writing a good description, especially when you guys keep changing the language...lmao

Disclaimer -- The following statement is extremely anal:
Also, there is no such thing as "hyzering out." Hyzer and anhyzer are terms that refer to the angle that a disc is released. When I throw a stable disc, it flies straight and then fades left or acts overstable at the end of it's flight (when it slows down).




Do you have an official source for that claim or is it just what you think those terms mean? Seeing as these words don't have official definitions (i.e. they are jargon/slang) it seems like as long as everyone knows what it means there can be no "wrong" usage.

Disclaimer -- The following statement is extremely anal:
Also, there is no such thing as "hyzering out." Hyzer and anhyzer are terms that refer to the angle that a disc is released. When I throw a stable disc, it flies straight and then fades left or acts overstable at the end of it's flight (when it slows down).




Do you have an official source for that claim or is it just what you think those terms mean? Seeing as these words don't have official definitions (i.e. they are jargon/slang) it seems like as long as everyone knows what it means there can be no "wrong" usage.



The point is not everyone does know what they mean. Maybe someone else can find some documentation but I do know for a fact that hyzer and anhyzer ONLY pertains to the angle of release.

If I was not sure, I wouldn't have posted. I would have made sure. It is hard to find some kind of difinitive answer for anything in disc golf. However, I am pretty sure I am correct about this one.

I think it has more to do with not being able to put into writing a good description, especially when you guys keep changing the language...lmao



I don't know who is changing language, but it ain't me.

Also, I don't think hyzer and anhyzer are slang terms. Jargon, yes but not slang. For a word to be slang, there has to be another word that is the technical term.

I would say it is jargon but that doesn't mean that jargon doesn't have a definite meaning.

P.S.--I was not trying to bash anyone for using the terms incorrectly. Just trying to help so that we can communicate more efficently and effectively. :)

It is hard to find some kind of difinitive answer for anything in disc golf.



That's because it doesn't exist. That's the nature of non standardized language. There is no fully accepted organization or documentation for disc golf jargon usage. As long as people know what the meaning is (which we clearly do) then it can't be wrong.

At the end of a disc's flight (if thrown high enough) the angle will change twards the "hyzer" side.

I do think you're 100% right about misuse of the word "stable" and the phrases "more stable" and "less stable," though. It isn't always clear what the meaning is so those terms are bad.

It is hard to find some kind of difinitive answer for anything in disc golf.



That's because it doesn't exist. That's the nature of non standardized language. There is no fully accepted organization or documentation for disc golf jargon usage. As long as people know what the meaning is (which we clearly do) then it can't be wrong.

At the end of a disc's flight (if thrown high enough) the angle will change twards the "hyzer" side.

I do think you're 100% right about misuse of the word "stable" and the phrases "more stable" and "less stable," though. It isn't always clear what the meaning is so those terms are bad.



Okay, well I can see your point. Although, I disagree.

Also, I don't think hyzer and anhyzer are slang terms. Jargon, yes but not slang. For a word to be slang, there has to be another word that is the technical term.

I would say it is jargon but that doesn't mean that jargon doesn't have a definite meaning.




(From http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=slang )
slang (note definition number 2)

n.
1) A kind of language occurring chiefly in casual and playful speech, made up typically of short-lived coinages and figures of speech that are deliberately used in place of standard terms for added raciness, humor, irreverence, or other effect.

2) Language peculiar to a group; argot or jargon: thieves' slang.

Here you go, I think this is as good as it gets for our "sport."

--From www.discgolfreview.com-- (http://www.discgolfreview.com--)

Disc Terminology

*Note* All statements will be made assuming a right-handed backhand (RHBH) throw. Left-handed backhand and right-handed forehand throws will result in a flight path opposite of the ones described here.


Hyzer - Releasing the disc with the outter edge at an angle lower than parallel to the ground. This will cause the most discs to curve to the left.
Anhyzer - Releasing the disc with the outter edge at an higher than parallel to the ground. This will cause the most discs to curve to the right.
High Speed Turn - The characteristic of a disc to curve to the right at the beginning of its flight when thrown hard.
Low Speed Fade - The natural tendency of a disc to tail left as it slows down at the end of its flight.
Overstable - A term used to describe the relative resistance to high speed turn and amount of low speed fade of a disc. A more overstable disc will generally have higher resistance to turn and greater low speed fade.
Understable - A term used to describe a disc with relatively low resistance to high speed turn and less low speed fade.
Turnover - The term used to describe the flight of a disc that curves to the right when thrown flat or at hyzer. A less overstable or understable disc will generally be easier to turn over.
Nose Down - Releasing the disc with the front end of the disc lower than the back end. Certain discs will fly better when thrown nose down.
Nose Up - Releasing the disc with the front end of the disc higher than the back end.
Stall Out - A term used to describe the flight of a disc when it peaks in height and drops off to the left without much glide. This generally occurs when the disc is thrown with the nose up.
S-Curve - A term used to describe the flight of a disc when it begins by turning to the right and then "flexes" out and glides back to the left.
Roller - A type of throw where the disc is turned over so far that it lands on its edge and rolls.
Snap - A term used to describe the armspeed and power a player gets into their throw. More snap will generally make the disc fly faster and further.

I had a vague recollection of us going down this hyzer/stable/lingo road before, and "voila", a short search turned this up: http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Equipment&Number=191661&Searchpage=2&Main=166381&Search=true&#Post191661 ;)

That is so funny. I was arguing this point then, and don't even remember it. lol

At least I was (am) right.

Edit: ...and by right, I do not mean the opposite of left, flipping, anhyzer, or being understable. :D

Curious...When did the term "Helix" get outted from the disc golf language?

I never used the term personally but interesting that a site that so many people use for throwing help doesnt even acknowledge the existence of the word.

Curious...When did the term "Helix" get outted from the disc golf language?

I never used the term personally but interesting that a site that so many people use for throwing help doesnt even acknowledge the existence of the word.



Because S-ball sounds cool, like a Pokemon skill or something. :D

Holy Christ, what a retarded thread.

As opposed to all the other normal threads on this board :confused: :confused:

:D

No, just compared to the threads where people don't argue about what slang to use, and then argue about whether or not the slang is jargon, or slang.

oh, so it is okay to argue about other completly useless stuff though :confused: :confused: :D:D

You may only argue about subjects that I have deemed appropriate

Here you go, I think this is as good as it gets for our "sport."

--From www.discgolfreview.com-- (http://www.discgolfreview.com--)




As much as I value Blake's site, it's far from being official. It's like claiming that flight ratings from a store are the official flight ratings for a disc.

Here you go, I think this is as good as it gets for our "sport."

--From www.discgolfreview.com-- (http://www.discgolfreview.com--)




As much as I value Blake's site, it's far from being official. It's like claiming that flight ratings from a store are the official flight ratings for a disc.



What about the link that was posted to the older thread about this? That has a pic of a book that his the same information listed.

And by the way, Blake T. has got to be the most respected source on this entire message board for throwing techniques. Do you know why that is? Because he takes a lot of time and thought to make decisions on what is the correct way to approach a situation. That doesn't sound like a person that would just fabricate a definition to suit his own personal preferences.

You may only argue about subjects that I have deemed appropriate



I think I saw you earlier today. Oh wait, no that was the massive turd that was floating in the toilet after I stood up.

My bad dude.

What about the link that was posted to the older thread about this? That has a pic of a book that his the same information listed.

And by the way, Blake T. has got to be the most respected source on this entire message board for throwing techniques. Do you know why that is? Because he takes a lot of time and thought to make decisions on what is the correct way to approach a situation. That doesn't sound like a person that would just fabricate a definition to suit his own personal preferences.



Do you use dictionaries that are 30 years old for current discussions on definitions of words? If you did you'd be wrong. Language, especally jargon and slang evolve over time. While that book may have been correct in 1975, that doesn't mean it's relevant now. Discs were much different back then. I could be wrong, but I don't think overstable discs even existed at that time.

I'm not claiming that Blake's definition is wrong, but I also don't think it's complete or acknowledged as such. He's also the first person I heard use the term "hyzer out." ;)

No, just compared to the threads where people don't argue about what slang to use, and then argue about whether or not the slang is jargon, or slang.



There's already a Wraith thread so it seems OK to use this one for something else. ;)

okay cool. I think I will agree to disagree. no point in arguing when I don't think we will ever think about it the same way.

Edit: the reason why I am tired of arguing is because you are writing off not 1 but 2 very valid (although you will disagree) sources. What does that book being from 1975 matter? At what particular date did the definition change? I think that book's definition is VERY relevant because that was during the earliest times of the developement of disc golf. Those terms were brand new to everyone, so there had to be definitions posted. Seems like they knew what they were talking about. Maybe I should call Webster's and get them to add hyzer to the dictionary. :D

Guess I ain't done. :p

Maybe I should call Webster's and get them to add hyzer to the dictionary.



Webster's is based on how words are used, not soley on old definitions. If it's generally accepted that hyzer refers to the disc angle with respect to the ground and spin rather than just the release angle (which seems to be apparent considering how often it's used that way) then they would probably give it two definitions. The companies that publish dictionaries update their definitions periodically because the meanings of words naturally evolve, new words are created and old words aren't used anymore. That's how language works. Disc golf is not immune.

I'm not argueing that the definitions you gave are wrong, just that they are incomplete. Because of how disc technology has changed in the past 30 years, the usage of certain words have evolved and new words have been added. Does the word "overstable" appear in that book? If not would it be wrong to use that word because it doesn't appear in what you're claiming is the end-all dictionary for disc golf?

Also, for someone who's so picky about the terms, you'd think you'd follow the definitions you're promoting:



You release an understable disc with a hyzer angle and it flips up.



If hyzer means, "Releasing the disc with the outter edge at an angle lower than parallel to the ground. This will cause the most discs to curve to the left. " that would mean that hyzer is a verb. It's the act of releasing a disc at a certain angle. The way you put it makes hyzer a noun, which you are argueing it isn't. You'd have to say, "You hyzer it and it flips up" to follow the strict definition you're claiming is the right and only one.

You may only argue about subjects that I have deemed appropriate



I think I saw you earlier today. Oh wait, no that was the massive turd that was floating in the toilet after I stood up.

My bad dude.



Thats funny. You may want to record that activity (http://www.tracytrends.com/potty/training-tip-a.jpg). As far as your problem of having massive (http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/6/65/Dildoofdeath.jpg) objects in your rectum, I think your prayers (http://pics.drugstore.com/prodimg/39460/200.jpg) have been answered (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1555838863.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg) . Now go get some! Either way, do not continue arguing about non-DS-sanctioned subjects.

I missed the conclusion, who won?

definative definitions and dictionaries are only necessary if you have a difficult time understanding what the words mean. I don't believe anyone here mis-understands what the term "hyzered out" means. It means that the low speed fade portion of the flight happens earlier than he would have preferred, and the darn disc didn't fly straight very long.

You can argue definitions all day long, but the fact is that just about everyone understood what he meant. And conveying uniform meaning is what language is all about.

in summary:
All you fukneck grammarians can gobble my keister. :p

I've got two CFR 174's and two Pro 174's. I find that the Pro is more stable and holds my line much better. The CFR's hyzer out on me too fast - at least they did when I first started throwing them. Now that my power has increased they might be better? I'll have to report back on that later...



I mean straight when I say more stable.

So when you say "more stable" do you mean more overstable or straighter? Because different people use that term to mean to completely opposite things.

Maybe I should send out a memo. :D

"Hyzer" describes the "angle", making it an adjective, not a noun.

I can definetly respect your side of the arguement. I do understand what is meant when someone says hyzered out. However, I still think that is an incorrect usage of the word.

Another silly thing I don't like: "I could care less." What is wrong with that common phrase? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

P.S.--We just had a very intelligent debate over a VERY silly topic...........all day long! I think that is hilarious. Also, one of Discndisciple's countless double-threads actually happened to contain some original thoughts. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :D

Okay I really am done this time. I think I have spent WAY too much time on this subject.

You may only argue about subjects that I have deemed appropriate



I think I saw you earlier today. Oh wait, no that was the massive turd that was floating in the toilet after I stood up.

My bad dude.



Thats funny. You may want to record that activity (http://www.tracytrends.com/potty/training-tip-a.jpg). As far as your problem of having massive (http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/6/65/Dildoofdeath.jpg) objects in your rectum, I think your prayers (http://pics.drugstore.com/prodimg/39460/200.jpg) have been answered (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1555838863.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg) . Now go get some! Either way, do not continue arguing about non-DS-sanctioned subjects.



What I think is funny is that I did a very great service to every member of this message board. I got you to spend enough time looking up all those childish links long enough that we could let some brain cells grow back.

I think we all get dumber when you are around. You are like that little money on Outbreak, except you are the soul carrier of the [I'm a potty-mouth!] redneck virus. You are to blame for the entire state of Alabama. You should be ashamed. Now go to your room and there will be no spam sandwiches for you this evening!

I missed the conclusion, who won?



I'm voting for this guy:


"Hyzer" describes the "angle", making it an adjective, not a noun.

I know Kid Roc!

What is wrong with the statement is that it should be stated as "I could NOT care less"

I think we all get dumber when you are around.
spam sandwiches


Now that is funny

I am finally gonna get a Wraith tomorrow. I hope the CFR is overstable. ;)

See if you can get one of those way overweight ones...I have one that's marked 173 and weighs 181 on my scale, and it's pretty overstable :).

I have one that's marked 173 and weighs 181 on my scale, and it's pretty overstable :).



Wow, let me know if you get tired of that bad boy! :D

Doubt I will. I actually have 2, and they differ in the way they look. Both are pink, but the 173 that is pretty clear is 173.8, and the one that is opaque'ish (I have some 1st run orcs that look like it) is the super overweight one. See if you can get one of the more opaque ones.

There is a difference in the CFR discs for sure. Our club pres. is a good friend of mine so myself and and a couple of people get first selection in discs so I bought 6 CFRs and 1 Pro. I have 3 168s that are way overstable and three 175s that are just stable to understable. You'd think it would be the other way around but it's not, I've had friends try these out and it's the same for them w/ different throwing styles. Within the same run it seems there can be major differences. Some one else who got a CFR at the same time says his 175 is way overstable, go figure. The discs are awsome !!!

Geo, could you check the flight plates for flatness and get back to us? Im betting the reason is the 168's are flatter than the 175's. 168 is not a reported wt that is available (170 is listed max) These got so much beef in the rim that the plate has to be made thin to get the disc down to legal wts. and sometimes they sink during cooling. Ive found 2 168 Wraths that are brilliant distance Hi,Sir flippers (not to much, like a TL disc, but just enough like a KA disc.) PS, my worn 170 pro still turns more and glides for more D, though. It helps to bring your favorite disc with when shopping for backups of any brand.

PS its good to get my name back after being erased. All the stuff ive ever posted and all the threads ive ever started have discappered tho. Looks like the boards will have to get by without all my past brilliant, nearly useless information. PSS, thanks too all who posted all those pages of useless banter in the middle of this good thread that I hade to wade through to get to geo's post, its like I never left!

Disc On!
Dave

Innova East has just released a very limited number of dyed Star Wraiths as a fundraiser for the 2006 Pro Worlds in Augusta. Only 500 of these discs will be available with an additional 100 reserved for Epicenter Disc Golf to sell locally in the Augusta area. They will retail for $18.99. Check out ZoneDriven.com to pick up a few for Christmas.

Special thanks to J-Bird Matthes for dying these discs for us at no charge and of course Innova, who made this model available to us.

Those are now available at ZoneDriven (https://www.zonedriven.com/proshop/product_info.php?products_id=446&osCsid=e7f38680d3e4156965f886700400a61c) .

Nice looking dyes, very vibrant.

Those are now available at ZoneDriven (https://www.zonedriven.com/proshop/product_info.php?products_id=446&osCsid=e7f38680d3e4156965f886700400a61c) .

Nice looking dyes, very vibrant.



Seems like Zonedriven is having some problems... i cannot complete my checkout

I'm all ordered... 2 coming my way.

Hey Erick,

Did you buy yours to collect or throw? I can't imagine the latter - what would a Dyed Star Wraith offer that a less-expensive Pro Wraith or CFR Champion Wraith doesn't?

Hey Erick,

Did you buy yours to collect or throw? I can't imagine the latter - what would a Dyed Star Wraith offer that a less-expensive Pro Wraith or CFR Champion Wraith doesn't?



Star plastic? I'm pretty sure the others don't have any of that. :D

Hey Erick,

Did you buy yours to collect or throw? I can't imagine the latter - what would a Dyed Star Wraith offer that a less-expensive Pro Wraith or CFR Champion Wraith doesn't?



Star plastic? I'm pretty sure the others don't have any of that. :D



Yep... grip of the pro with durability of the champ... my SB or Star orcs are amazing!

Plus, I like JBirds work.