Has anyone thrown the new innova wraith yet? Does it fly as far as they say it does and does it fly straight a long way before it turns over? I would like to know before i buy one. thanks.

It's neither the farthest nor the best disc I've ever thrown. I just think for all practical purpose that the Pro Starfires fly farther. To me the Wraith has too much low speed fade and that's what takes the D that the Starfire gets away. If you haven't checked out the Starfire I'd do that first and if it is too flippy then try the Wraith. From the limited amount I've thrown starfires, they haven't been too flippy and I've gotten a few out over 450. Can't say the same for the Wraith.

MC

1st of all, the poll is very good. The 1st 2 options are very similar. No need in having both of them. Also, I don't think it is the farthest disc (or the best) but I also don't think that it sucks. You need to have an option in the middle.

Your poll choices are pretty limited. It's not the farthest or best for me either. But I do like the Pro Wraith very much.

I think the disc sucks because even though it flies far it is very unpredictable. I have thrown it and it hyzers then the next throw it flips. IMO the disc is best when thrown on a low hyzer flip because the reduces the variables and gives a little consistany to the disc. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

It is a great headwind or a big sweeping hyzer disc.

If you ever need a disc for a 400ft hyzer shot.....

The CFR Wraith is it.

But it is a tad unpredictable when throw flat. But most high speed/wide rimmed drivers are.

It is a great headwind or a big sweeping hyzer disc.

If you ever need a disc for a 400ft hyzer shot.....

The CFR Wraith is it.
. But most high speed/wide rimmed drivers are.




I couldn't get it to hyzer at all but maybe I had a bad one.
But it is a tad unpredictable when throw flat

I just started throwing the Champion, so I voted on my opinion on the Pro. Its the farthest flying disc Ive owned. Its proved it several times in the last 2 weeks.

Ive only used the Champion in breezy to windy conditions and it reminded me ALOT of the first Pro Line Beast. When Id throw it flat or on slight hyser it would go 3/4 of the distance and then bend out right. Height depended on how much it came back, but it did always come back. On solid hysers it was impressive with alot of distance and would still skip another 20 past where you thought it would be. Instant distance.
The Pro I like for the low hyser flip shots and anhyser bombs.

The only disc I have that can hang with the Pro Wraith in the practice field is the hard DX poppy topped Beasts, thrown really high on anny. just for distance.

I just started throwing the Champion, so I voted on my opinion on the Pro. Its the farthest flying disc Ive owned. Its proved it several times in the last 2 weeks.

Ive only used the Champion in breezy to windy conditions and it reminded me ALOT of the first Pro Line Beast. When Id throw it flat or on slight hyser it would go 3/4 of the distance and then bend out right. Height depended on how much it came back, but it did always come back. On solid hysers it was impressive with alot of distance and would still skip another 20 past where you thought it would be. Instant distance.
The Pro I like for the low hyser flip shots and anhyser bombs.

The only disc I have that can hang with the Pro Wraith in the practice field is the hard DX poppy topped Beasts, thrown really high on anny. just for distance.



Ok I just don't get why a disc is great because it flies so far. :confused: I mean it may go far but you don't really have much control over it. I guess it just isn't the thing I base my choice of drivers on because I have no need to improve my feild distance from 500' to 520'. i mean how often do you have to throw over 420'? I live in Tx and we still rarely have holes that an extra 15 or so feet will help. Maybe if you throw <320 this will be good for you but if that is as far as you can throw then it will be too overstable and cause you to develope bad form and hinder you distance in the long run. IMO stick with consistancy over an extra few feet because 300 down the middle is better then 320 in the C R A P :D

1st of all, the poll is very good. The 1st 2 options are very similar. No need in having both of them. Also, I don't think it is the farthest disc (or the best) but I also don't think that it sucks. You need to have an option in the middle.



Oops, I just re-read my post. I meant to say that the poll is not very good, at all. Very vague and lacking any middle ground.

1st of all, the poll is very good. The 1st 2 options are very similar. No need in having both of them. Also, I don't think it is the farthest disc (or the best) but I also don't think that it sucks. You need to have an option in the middle.



Oops, I just re-read my post. I meant to say that the poll is not very good, at all. Very vague and lacking any middle ground.



Yeah I thought you were a little "off" in that post :D

For me the Pro Line Wraith was flippy and the plastic was non-durable. I am getting better results from the Flash, which is also a little flippy, but I guess you have to deal with some flippy to get maximum glide. A Pro Line Wraith and a Z Flash cost the same [when I buy them and when I sell them] so I think I'll stick with the Flash.

Since a $12 Z-Flash is getting me good results and is easy to replace, I can't see buying a CFR Wraith.

I put my Wraith to good use however. When we were picking up at Fairfield a kid with no discs came up and wanted to know if we sold any used discs cheap. I said, "No, we give used discs away free. Here."

I'll sell him a new disc next summer, or more hopefully, I'll sell 100 discs to the guy who winds up selling that kid one.

the wraith is a nice disc, but I will stick with my orcs for max D. Teebirds are still the best though.

I threw a Starfire, Orc, Wraith, Crush and Avenger for testing. None went consistantly farther than the rest. I will stick with my Crushes and Preds for distance. Much more controllable too.

I throw under 300'. For me the Wraith is a very long driver though not quite as long as the Ace. It is less overstable than the Avenger and very predictable.

the Ace? are you joking?

I think the real factor here is that with Innova, Discraft, gateway etc... we have a wide spectrum of "ultra" high speed drivers. and discs like teebirds and eagles have become the new "fairway drivers"

The wraith is just another really fast disc, and it will work for some, and not for others.

I think the real factor here is that with Innova, Discraft, gateway etc... we have a wide spectrum of "ultra" high speed drivers. and discs like teebirds and eagles have become the new "fairway drivers"

The wraith is just another really fast disc, and it will work for some, and not for others.



That was 100% correct, imo.

if you throw under 300-----the ace will be longer than the wraith, so no, he is not joking

if you throw under 300-----the ace will be longer than the wraith, so no, he is not joking



Oh yeah, forgot about that part. I think I was just surprised that anyone throws an Ace.

Ok I just don't get why a disc is great because it flies so far. :confused: I mean it may go far but you don't really have much control over it. .......... IMO stick with consistancy over an extra few feet because 300 down the middle is better then 320 in the C R A P :D



I agree, my favorite and must used drivers are my Teebird and XL. Even on holes that are over 400ft, I can choose to throw a high speed driver, but if accuracy is more important I will stick with the XL or Teebird. I will pull out the Beast/Avenger/Wraith if I have room to really boom a shot.

I don't like the poll either. I think it's a good disc. It's not the farthest nor one I use that much. But, so far, I'm carrying.

What am I doing to make it go straight though? My love for trees?

I had a little bit of time to throw in a soccer field this weekend so I have some of my early impressions of the disc. For the record I throw putters ~280', midranges up to 300' or so, "fairway" drivers 320'-330' and can hit 350'-360' pretty consistantly with my long range drivers. I don't know how to throw "distance" throws, so those distances are all when I try to throw in a straight line. Skillwise I'm somewhere in the good-rec to average-intermediate player range. This is really only an early look for me as I've only had a handfull of throws to use for a comparison.

I had thrown the Pro Wraith a few times on a course and it does have a bit of road rash, but I haven't hit a tree with it yet. It isn't brand new, but I don't think it's worn in yet either. I was able to consistantly get the Pro out 10'-20' farther than my Avengers, Spirits and Orions but the CFR went the same distance.

I found the stability of both of them to be similar to the Z-Avenger with the Pro Wraith turning slightly more. In other words I throw them pretty flat and they'll go straight and low with a hefty fade at the end. I'd like it to beat in to turn more at high speeds, but I'm not sure if I'll keep it or not. I do like that they aren't super overstable at high speeds but still have quite a bit of fade. I tend to prefer discs I can flip up to flat, but I don't always end up with a disc that finishes predictably. If there's anything in my bag that the Wraith would replace, it would be my longest overstable discs, which at the moment are E Spirits and Z Avengers.

I was thinking it was like a NEW x avenger but not as controllable.

I don't really know how to throw for distance either. When I throw in a field, it's to compare discs or to see how they behave. I've never really tried to go out and throw as far as I can. I find that as long as I can throw 200 accurately, I do fine. If it's a 400 or 500 foot hole, I throw a par instead of a bird.

Most holes that are in that range are par 4's anyway. I imagine for tournaments everything is played as 3? That's what the guys down here do.

I believe if I was gonna throw for distance, I'd pull out Ole Blue, my oldest z xs.

I have had this disc for awhile now, and I really like it. IN Champion or Pro plastic, this disc has performed very nicely.

This is by far the fastest and longest disc that I have thrown, and it does not require a 360 to achieve the long distances we all strive for. As far as control goes, like any other product we choose in life, it takes time to learn and apply the characteristics of that product . No one disc will do it all for you, you must apply skills to get the disc to do what you want.

That being said, this disc is not as stable as I would like it to be, but I prefer very stable plastic. I have learned the way to make this disc do what I want, and it fills a very empty spot in my bag. This disc has some great control at higher speeds, and is awesome for those long turn over drives. This is the only disc that I have ever thrown 600' on level ground with accuracy in golf applications !

A must have in the bag!!!

This is by far the fastest and longest disc that I have thrown, and it does not require a 360 to achieve the long distances we all strive for..................................This is the only disc that I have ever thrown 600' on level ground with accuracy in golf applications !

A must have in the bag!!!





Craigy,

I have spent years golfing with you, and i have personally seen you throw an AVIAR putter 500+ feet. So to say that this ULTRA LONG RANGE DRIVER will go 600' means nothing to this old dog. :D

Looking forward to our Florida trip......where you can display your mutant power once again. See you Wed. :)

That Aviar thing was many, many miles ago.

This disc will go alot further for me, but I have to use a 360 that is not as accurate.

I threw this dis c600' and was only 10' from the pin, and I have done this more than once so it was no fluke!

See ya Wednesday...

Even worse than your poll is that you didn't specify the type of Wraith. There is a great difference between the CFR Pro Worlds 2006 Wraith and the Proline Wraith. The former is significantly more stable than the latter.
It also doesn't hurt to mention weight, as there can be a measurable difference in stability between a disc in the 160s and a 175g disc.

I just started throwing the Champion, so I voted on my opinion on the Pro. Its the farthest flying disc Ive owned. Its proved it several times in the last 2 weeks.

Ive only used the Champion in breezy to windy conditions and it reminded me ALOT of the first Pro Line Beast. When Id throw it flat or on slight hyser it would go 3/4 of the distance and then bend out right. Height depended on how much it came back, but it did always come back. On solid hysers it was impressive with alot of distance and would still skip another 20 past where you thought it would be. Instant distance.
The Pro I like for the low hyser flip shots and anhyser bombs.

The only disc I have that can hang with the Pro Wraith in the practice field is the hard DX poppy topped Beasts, thrown really high on anny. just for distance.



Ok I just don't get why a disc is great because it flies so far. :confused: I mean it may go far but you don't really have much control over it. I guess it just isn't the thing I base my choice of drivers on because I have no need to improve my feild distance from 500' to 520'. i mean how often do you have to throw over 420'? I live in Tx and we still rarely have holes that an extra 15 or so feet will help. Maybe if you throw <320 this will be good for you but if that is as far as you can throw then it will be too overstable and cause you to develope bad form and hinder you distance in the long run. IMO stick with consistancy over an extra few feet because 300 down the middle is better then 320 in the C R A P :D




Because I dont live in Texas, and 15-20ft will help. Example: I have dueced 2 holes this week I could not reach before. I dont throw 500ft. I find it hard to believe HALF the people that say they do. One of the holes was slightly downhill and was a monster crush. I wont even say how far. The other I have ran at it several times for deuce, on roller drives. I reached it on the air with the Wraith. I dont have control issues with the disc at all. The Champion I dont know as well, and have had some shanks, but thats common with any disc that you try to kill. Not everybody likes the fact that your disc will come back to earth like a lawn dart, like say a Spirit would. I just started using it because my season is over and I didnt want to add another of the 500 new Innova discs in 75 different plastics. I dont know why it goes farther, but in the field it always does. Even on bad shots or early releases.

If you have no problem reaching 500ft, it shouldnt matter what kind of disc you use as that only applies maybe twice in a round. 500ft is far. Id really like to see someone set up a camera and record themselves throwing on a football field. I think its 360ft. from end to end. 140ft past that is 500 on flat ground. Lets see big arms. I play with one person that can get that, and its on a distance drive. Huge run-up high release big anny.
BTW Scooter, I use Teebirds and a well used Orc off the tee most of the time, because like you said, control is the most important part of the drive, not the distance. (most the time)

Heres the way I see it:

You can get the job done w/o big distance, but obviously it helps. When I look back at hot rounds, or ones that could have been, rarely do I see distance as whats holding me back. Anytime I have ever shot a 1000+ round, its been b/c I hit putts and executed shots. Granted, I would definatly want more (Doesn't everyone!) but I can compete w/o it.

The shots that seperate the men from the boys are who can pump their Sabres/TeeBirds/XLs farther and acuratly. The level of control these offer are WAY MORE important than the fact your Wraith/Flash/Spirit can go farther.

Heres the way I see it:

You can get the job done w/o big distance, but obviously it helps. When I look back at hot rounds, or ones that could have been, rarely do I see distance as whats holding me back. Anytime I have ever shot a 1000+ round, its been b/c I hit putts and executed shots. Granted, I would definatly want more (Doesn't everyone!) but I can compete w/o it.

The shots that seperate the men from the boys are who can pump their Sabres/TeeBirds/XLs farther and acuratly. The level of control these offer are WAY MORE important than the fact your Wraith/Flash/Spirit can go farther.



Well said.

I see many people that have issues overthrowing 200-300 foot holes. I do good to just get there; at least it's one less thing to worry about...(over throwing that is). I see many big arms throw big annyhyers that glide all over the place and land beyond the target behind a tree. For my purposes, I nice straight shot (is it still called a pike?) that lands in line with me near the basket is more useful. On more cases than not, it's my putting that causes a bad round, not my distance.

How many feet is a football feild 350, right? I know I can throw that because I've thrown from one end of the track and landed on the stands on the opposite sideline.

How do you measure your throw without a marked field?

Flat out, the longest disc I have ever thrown in both Pro and Champ plastic (Pro is slightly longer because of more glide)

I would say that it has added 30'-40' to my average drive compared to its closest distance competitors (Orc, Starfire, Avenger, Crush, Flash, Beast)

[QUOTE]
Heres the way I see it:
How many feet is a football feild 350, right? I know I can throw that because I've thrown from one end of the track and landed on the stands on the opposite sideline.

How do you measure your throw without a marked field?




In the NFL and NCAA, the field is a total of 120 yards long--100 yards of playing field with two end zones, one at either end of the field, each end zone being 10 yards long.

since a football field is 120 yards long(from back of endzone to back of endzone) that would be 360 feet.

Or you could go to canada where their fields are longer

The best way to try and measure distance on a non-marked field is jsut pace it off. Then determine how long one of yoru paces is and multiply it by the number of paces you took. Very important that you walk in a straight line otherwise you will be decieving yourself.

I just started throwing the Champion, so I voted on my opinion on the Pro. Its the farthest flying disc Ive owned. Its proved it several times in the last 2 weeks.

Ive only used the Champion in breezy to windy conditions and it reminded me ALOT of the first Pro Line Beast. When Id throw it flat or on slight hyser it would go 3/4 of the distance and then bend out right. Height depended on how much it came back, but it did always come back. On solid hysers it was impressive with alot of distance and would still skip another 20 past where you thought it would be. Instant distance.
The Pro I like for the low hyser flip shots and anhyser bombs.

The only disc I have that can hang with the Pro Wraith in the practice field is the hard DX poppy topped Beasts, thrown really high on anny. just for distance.



Ok I just don't get why a disc is great because it flies so far. :confused: I mean it may go far but you don't really have much control over it. I guess it just isn't the thing I base my choice of drivers on because I have no need to improve my feild distance from 500' to 520'. i mean how often do you have to throw over 420'? I live in Tx and we still rarely have holes that an extra 15 or so feet will help. Maybe if you throw <320 this will be good for you but if that is as far as you can throw then it will be too overstable and cause you to develope bad form and hinder you distance in the long run. IMO stick with consistancy over an extra few feet because 300 down the middle is better then 320 in the C R A P :D




Because I dont live in Texas, and 15-20ft will help. Example: I have dueced 2 holes this week I could not reach before. I dont throw 500ft. I find it hard to believe HALF the people that say they do. One of the holes was slightly downhill and was a monster crush. I wont even say how far. The other I have ran at it several times for deuce, on roller drives. I reached it on the air with the Wraith. I dont have control issues with the disc at all. The Champion I dont know as well, and have had some shanks, but thats common with any disc that you try to kill. Not everybody likes the fact that your disc will come back to earth like a lawn dart, like say a Spirit would. I just started using it because my season is over and I didnt want to add another of the 500 new Innova discs in 75 different plastics. I dont know why it goes farther, but in the field it always does. Even on bad shots or early releases.

If you have no problem reaching 500ft, it shouldnt matter what kind of disc you use as that only applies maybe twice in a round. 500ft is far. Id really like to see someone set up a camera and record themselves throwing on a football field. I think its 360ft. from end to end. 140ft past that is 500 on flat ground. Lets see big arms. I play with one person that can get that, and its on a distance drive. Huge run-up high release big anny.
BTW Scooter, I use Teebirds and a well used Orc off the tee most of the time, because like you said, control is the most important part of the drive, not the distance. (most the time)




All I know is that on 90% of the courses I have played there is NO need for a 400+ drive. Actually now that i think of it there was maybe three holes on the whole course over the 400 mark. I say stick whit your Teebirds,XLs(avengers, and sabres and you will be just fine. Believe me you will improve your game due to the fact that you aren't taking as many bogies because of trying to go for a hole that is really out of your range and going in the schule :D

Yeah, what is the point of being pin high on a 525' hole if you are 80' right?

scooters best post ever!

Odds are if you go into the rough you flipped the disc too much so you would be in trouble a lot earlier and have a very tough approach(if any)

Ok here's an example... The Epic can actualle be thrown very far but it is so inconsistant that it has been named the worst disc ever right? The wraith is far from being that inconsistant but I have played with a few Innova guys in the past few months that can't seem to get the wraith to work time after time. They throw it once and it works great. They throw it again the same way and it does something different. The funny thing is they walk back with a WTF look on thier face but they keep throwing it and it keeps screwing them. I know a few of them have taken the disc out of the bag and I'm fairly sure that Barry no longer uses one. :D

Has anyone aced yet with a Wraith ? Seen and paid Robbie Wilson !!!!!! He cranked one in at La Mirada on the back nine course , hole # 22 or hole # 10 in the Safari ( Golden State ) layout !!!!!!!! That was over 400 + !!!!!!! He has the power to crank it though !!!!!

My Pro Wraith turns a bit more than my Fundraiser Candy Wraith. It does go pretty far , almost too far on some holes.

I have not played alot with it on a ball golf course yet , but intend to !!!!!!! :D

Armando Marroquin aced hole 9 blue at the Coastal Clash late August, first day he had the disc, I believe.

Ok here's an example... The Epic can actualle be thrown very far but it is so inconsistant that it has been named the worst disc ever right? The wraith is far from being that inconsistant but I have played with a few Innova guys in the past few months that can't seem to get the wraith to work time after time. They throw it once and it works great. They throw it again the same way and it does something different. The funny thing is they walk back with a WTF look on thier face but they keep throwing it and it keeps screwing them. I know a few of them have taken the disc out of the bag and I'm fairly sure that Barry no longer uses one. :D



I appreciate your input, value your opinion, and admire your skill. however, not everyone has 500' of power, and not everyone prefers discs that are grossly overstable. This is simply not the right disc for you, and that does not make it a bad disc, just more high speed turn than you are used to throwing.

I've tried the wraith a few times, and it was just about the same as my avengers, so I didn't buy them. It wasn't the right disc for me either.

Ok here's an example... The Epic can actualle be thrown very far but it is so inconsistant that it has been named the worst disc ever right? The wraith is far from being that inconsistant but I have played with a few Innova guys in the past few months that can't seem to get the wraith to work time after time. They throw it once and it works great. They throw it again the same way and it does something different. The funny thing is they walk back with a WTF look on thier face but they keep throwing it and it keeps screwing them. I know a few of them have taken the disc out of the bag and I'm fairly sure that Barry no longer uses one. :D



I appreciate your input, value your opinion, and admire your skill. however, not everyone has 500' of power, and not everyone prefers discs that are grossly overstable. This is simply not the right disc for you, and that does not make it a bad disc, just more high speed turn than you are used to throwing.

I've tried the wraith a few times, and it was just about the same as my avengers, so I didn't buy them. It wasn't the right disc for me either.



How is a disc grosely overstable, but still having a lot of high speed turn? Do you mean it is grosely overstable at low speeds and understable at high speeds? If so, that is the perfect recipe for a lack of control.

I have switched to overstable discs for distance and it has helped my control and consistancy. But, my overstable discs are not flippy at high speeds.

That confused me to no end...The Epic is a P.O.S. Period. Mad overstable until you hit a tree. Now it's understable hit another tree now it flies like a dream. Hit anther tree it's mad overstable again. P.O.S. Period.

It does take some throws and adjustments. Good technique is important ,as is , a clean release , with adjusted nose angle. I'm not sure yet if disc weight makes much difference though , on distance. I'm throwing a 172 gram screamer and I have to be careful on disc altitude or is it attitude !!!!! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Ok here's an example... The Epic can actualle be thrown very far but it is so inconsistant that it has been named the worst disc ever right? The wraith is far from being that inconsistant but I have played with a few Innova guys in the past few months that can't seem to get the wraith to work time after time. They throw it once and it works great. They throw it again the same way and it does something different. The funny thing is they walk back with a WTF look on thier face but they keep throwing it and it keeps screwing them. I know a few of them have taken the disc out of the bag and I'm fairly sure that Barry no longer uses one. :D



I appreciate your input, value your opinion, and admire your skill. however, not everyone has 500' of power, and not everyone prefers discs that are grossly overstable. This is simply not the right disc for you, and that does not make it a bad disc, just more high speed turn than you are used to throwing.

I've tried the wraith a few times, and it was just about the same as my avengers, so I didn't buy them. It wasn't the right disc for me either.



Actually my critique of the disc comes more from watching others throw it than my own throwing experience. I know the disc will fly differently for me but IMO the DX beast or Champ orc are better choices for high speed drivers if you prefer innova. Most of the players I have seen throw and control about 70% of the time were players who throw around 350-420ft so they aren't huge arms but they represent the majority of tournament players who are in it for competition. I may use this disc in a distance competition or something but it would never make it into my bag.

It would be nice though , to have a golf disc that holds a straight line for 500 + , into the wind and rain !!!! :D

I can dream , can't I ? :D

How is a disc grosely overstable, but still having a lot of high speed turn? Do you mean it is grosely overstable at low speeds and understable at high speeds? If so, that is the perfect recipe for a lack of control.




Sorry, but I believe you miss-understood me. I was trying to say that not everyone likes discs that are grossly overstable . The pro wraith has a good deal of high speed turn, especially when beat up a bit. (curse of the pro plastic ... it gets flippy). Some players like a good deal of turn to keep the disc in the air, some don't. If you do (I DO) you may like it. If you don't.. you probably won't. And it is one thing to not like a disc, and another to dis it in public.

have been throwing avengers for a while, and recently put the pro and cfr wraiths into the bag for a while as well. i find that the avengers are the closest thing to longer teebirds. way longer. the wraiths give me 25 feet or so more than the avengers on distance, but the uncomfortable wide grip and inconsistant flight do not work for me. i will keep a 170 pro in the bag for fun, unless the spectra is longer...

I let my wraiths do my talkin' for me. They definitely create better scoring opportunities on the longer holes. Excellent disc. Thank you, DaveI.

[QUOTE]
How is a disc grosely overstable, but still having a lot of high speed turn? Do you mean it is grosely overstable at low speeds and understable at high speeds? If so, that is the perfect recipe for a lack of control.




I've definitely seen this... when you really get on the wraith, it is understable... but finishes overstable... I think when dealing with a distance driver with any chance of turning the disc over, I'd choose the X pred over my CFR Wraith. In normal conditions, i'd prefer my 2nd Run Pro Orc over the Pro Wraith...


--Erick

since a football field is 120 yards long(from back of endzone to back of endzone) that would be 360 feet.




I'm throwing better than I thought!

For what it's worth... I had an Orc and couldn't conhtrol it at all. I have no problem controlling the Wraith and it goes much farther for me than the Orc did. And I don't have a lot of power.

Dave Chappelle singing:

"Different strokes, it takes, different strokes, it takes, different strokes to RULE THE WORLLLLLLLLLDDDDDDDDD!"

:D

Finally got around to test some Wraiths more seriously. They sure fly far, but I got the impression they're quite sensitive regarding nose angle. If you don't get the nose down, it simply won't perform. For me this turned out to be a bit tricky with the wide rim grip (Actually had exactly the same problem with the Orc, so that one never made it into my bag...), but if you master the nose angle no doubt this is a great disc.