I was thinking about the 2 stroke penalty for having an incorrect scorecard. Personally, I think you should be DQed for it, but that's a totally different issue.

Let's say that I'm tied with Joe to start the last round. I shoot a 50, he shoots 51. He knows that we were both close on the cash line and I could get last cash. I check my scorecard and see that I did infact shoot a 50 as I thought. I shake everyone's hand and walk off. Joe checks his and sees he shot a 51 and could now miss cash b/c I beat him. After everyone leaves, he changes my score to a 51 and turns the card in. I now, under the current rule, have a 52 and Joe beat me.

I've heard of this happening once (well, something like this) and I'm scared to death that someone will do it one time. DRZ's are gonna say that's cheating and he should be DQ'ed - but how can you prove this happened??

I think that we need to change this rule to the person turning in the scorecard recieves the penalty.

Thoughts?

if this happened, it seems like the members of your group would beable to recall what you shot, when you all addded up the scores. in the womens division, 99% of the time, everyone adds up everyones scores. so they not only get double checked, they get checked 4 times. its a huge responsibility and trust to the person who takes the card in. if someone did this, they would be an absolute [I'm a potty-mouth!] because you and your group would know. i dont think being DQ'd is even enough, i say they should be suspended from the PDGA. that would be the least of the worries though cuz karma is a b1tch.

I don't let the score card out of my sight if it is going to matter to me--ie trophy or prizes. I will usually volunteer to take the card up, but if one of the other guys wants to, I'll just follow him up until he turns it in. I have never received a penalty for a late card! :D

Yes, I understand this.

Just think about it. Someone changes you score and you are stroked. Someone explain how this makes sense???

jon has the correct approach. walk that baby up yourself or watch it being handed to the officials.

another backup tool is to record your score on your own scorecard. then check the official card against yours to verify that both agree. make sure the wholecard knows you are doing it.

if you do take both of those actions, you will have a fairly compelling case that yourcard was edited. the editor should be castrated, then tar and feathered, then thrown off a bridge in front of a freight train running at full speed. then left for the vultures.

it makes sense because the player is responsible for what score is submitted. there's punks out there... you need to take protective action... sad but true. see my post above for the penalties when they are caught :)

While this situation is clearly an opportunity for cheating, I'm not sure it's easier than other ways a player might make up a throw or two if they are intent on cheating. Several other rules might also need to be changed if cheating is the primary reason this particular rule is being singled out.

I agree with dischick. The way you prevent it is to have everyone check everyone else's scorecard. In my area (mid-atlantic) this is almost always done. However I've had some groups (in other regions) that just want to bolt after the last hole without even totaling their own score much less anyone else's. I find this to be incredibly rude.

I also agree that if anyone is caught changing another player's score without some discussion with the player they need to be penalized severely. A one-year suspension from PDGA events is not too harsh for someone guilty of this sort of cheating.

imo it was a mistake to no longer require all players to sign their card. i definitely count more incorrect scorecards as a td now than i did when that rule was in effect. it would also help alleviate the situations rob describes.

IMO, the rules should either require everyone to keep a card that reports everyone's score, or at least require two cards per group, thereby solving your issue and preventing the more conventional forms of pencil-whipping.

How about going back to using individual scorecards instead of having one card for the group? That way each player has the responsibility of turning in their own scorecard. I also agree with John that players should have to sign their scorecards.

I don't know if its the rule which needs changing, or standard practice at events.

Individual scorecards are one answer. The top player could take a group of cards out, individuals would exchange cards (each card having an area for recording other scores as well) At the end of a round, players would add up cards and double check as necessary before retuning the cards to the scoring area.

Under present rules, folks who have concerns in this area can consider self-preservation tactics. Take an extra scorecard and announce clearly on the 1st hole that you'll be recording scores yourself. Ask to see the card every hole or two early on, and have a look for yourself at what's been recorded. Be sure to take your turn at scoring. Beware of the guy who volunteers to carry the card the whole round (although he's usually just being a nice guy).

Joe

i would agree with the idea that keeping your own score on a separate scorecard is the way to go. in most ball golf tournaments i've played each player has their own scorecard. cards are exchanged so that you have someone else's, who doesn't also have yours. you also keep a separate scorecard for yourself. each player then keeps two scores for the entire round, verifies his own card at the end, and two signatures go on the bottom of each card.

i do think that if td's enact the score initial requirement it can save some strokes.

although i tend to be harsh on some penalties, (i'm in favor of a dq for anyone missing their tee time) i think that two strokes for an incorrect scorecard is a just punishment.

i agree, penalties for bad math are silly.
Often I'll see front and back totals correct, and the final wrong.

I also think signing scorecards is not enough. We used to have the scores signed by the player and verified and signed by another group member.

This should solve the cheat that might change the score post totaling.
Remember, not totaling your card is 2 strokes.

Your math isn't going to be better just because you sign the card.

The total has to be correct. If several players check each other's scores at the end of the round, most will remember what they saw. Someone changing the score after it had been checked by 3 or more players would likely be caught.

Half of the people I play with around here can't tell me what anyone on thier card shot much less themselves.

I have seen guys get stroked because one of the front or back nine totals , was off. Even though the Overall score was correct.

Please check and Re-check your card , each and every time !!!!
Mistakes happen , even honest mistakes.

It does not matter , who is checking your score , before the cards are turned in.

Always check your card. It's your score !!!!!!!!

You do NOT want to be arguing with Officials , once the card has been turned in !!!!!!! :eek: /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I have seen guys get stroked because one of the front or back nine totals , was off. Even though the Overall score was correct.

Then they got skrewed by the TD because there is certainly nothing in the rules requiring a player to have correct subtotals for front and back nines.

true, i don't even look at the subtotals when i count in cards.

We're not recommending columns for 9-hole In & Out totals on scorecards anymore for PDGA Major events, just 18 holes and total. I think those columns may start to disappear on cards at all levels.

That would be alot easier on the scorekeeper as well.

Half of the people I play with around here can't tell me what anyone on thier card shot much less themselves.



I don't add anyones score up but my own, even if they ask me to. I make sure people know that too. Its not my duty to add up everyone elses score. That way, if they get it wrong, its their fault and their fault only.

Seems kind of narrow minded to me. I will say I agree the player, and the player only is responsible for their score. I will check all the scores and then check mine about six more times.

you could kill two birds with one stone by having each person turn in their own scorecards after the round where they are entered into computer system as they are turned in.. I realize w/ a shotgun start this could mean long lines , but if done correctly generating hole assignments would be easy as pie.. especially utilizing two computers.

ce

IMO, the rules should either require everyone to keep a card that reports everyone's score, or at least require two cards per group, thereby solving your issue and preventing the more conventional forms of pencil-whipping.



I agree that our scorekeeping rules need to be greatly firmed up. Someone should write to the PDGA Rules Committee and get this included in the 2006 update.

Of course if folks just followed the rules we already do have about taking scores it would solve a great deal of this.

"Everyone got a 3 right?" is actually a courtesy violation. It doesn't even need to be seconded... /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Put a pen in your bag. Pick your favorite color even.
Add up your score. After the total on the same line as your name sign your initials and write down the total you added up (it is the same as the one in the total column box right...)
circle it.

Now if someone changes your score it will be different than what you wrote, which gives you a way to defend your case.

Which is all you really want in this situation.