I've taken some time to review Joe's Universal Flight Chart vs my own game. I realize that I am most effective when 1. I throw discs with a power rating of 3 or less and 2. I throw these discs flat to slightly hyzer and no higher than 10' to 15'. So here are my two questions.

1. What could I possibly gain from throwing higher and what type of disc would I need. I throw higher when I want to turn (right or left) but is there another reason for throwing higher.
2. Most "headwind" discs are labeled as either a (power) 4 or 5....but I don't throw these well. So what type of disc would work best for me (thrown into a head wind). Or, even more, what type of disc would work best in a cross-wind (into my hyzer).

I have found the best wind disc to be the Blaze by Gateway.

I find that stable to understable discs in the "3.5" and below range on that flight chart fly farther when thrown high. When given more height, they'll carry farther witout fading out. It's easy to see this effect with stable putters.

You may want to try a Blaze or Whippet as a headwind disc. They aren't super fast, but are sill overstable. A Z Wasp might work well, too.

I have found the best wind disc to be the Blaze by Gateway.



Just curious.... with the rating system of Joe's flight chart, how would you rate the new Gateway Hybrid?

and another vote for the Z Wasp for a good, easy to use, wind disc. It's pretty long for a mid range, and I use it for a driver on several holes where my putter is too straight or too short.

a3:

1) slower discs need more height to carry far. this is most apparent with putters and midranges but is true for all discs to an extent.

2) the power requirement basically coincides to disc speed, but takes other factors into account such as stability, required nose down, etc.

personally, when i throw into a headwind i'm more concerned with the disc's finish than it flipping. discs like an eagle, gazelle, or cyclone will nearly always fade after turned if they are given enough air under them, and these are also the types of discs i use on most headwind shots.

if you want something more purely overstable, looking at when they were released is an easy way to decipher the power needed to make them move.
the viper and whippet came out ~1990-92.
the x-clone ~1995.
the banshee/exp1 ~1996-97.
firebird ~1999.
blaze ~2000 (but designed more like 1993-95)
reaper ~2000.

imo, the viper, x-clone, blaze, and reaper are the easiest to throw of these discs, but all will probably need to be broken in a hair for you first.

there are a few flippier discs that become more overstable as you step up in plastic:
champion eagle, kc gazelle, z cyclone.

similarly, there are a few overstable discs on the cusp that you may find yourself able to handle if you step down in plastic:
x predator, x talon

as for the hybrid, i haven't thrown it yet, but i have one sitting here to test. a talk with the guys at the shop has me believing it will be similar to an X2, which i would have rated 4/0/3.5/4

1) slower discs need more height to carry far. this is most apparent with putters and midranges but is true for all discs to an extent.

personally, when i throw into a headwind i'm more concerned with the disc's finish than it flipping. discs like an eagle, gazelle, or cyclone will nearly always fade after turned if they are given enough air under them, and these are also the types of discs i use on most headwind shots.

there are a few flippier discs that become more overstable as you step up in plastic:
champion eagle, kc gazelle, z cyclone.





I understand your comment about slower discs needing more height. But, to me, they also need more run (right to left) to hyzer out. I guess I want more of a straight type shot.

The finish of a shot into the wind is what started me on this post. I threw my Champion Orc into the wind during a round last Saturday. It started digging left and never quit. It almost got the distance I wanted, but went too far to the left. Too much disc. I have a new d Valk and a few Eagles not being used. Maybe they will suit my needs.

Thanks.

playing a headwind shot is a lot like playing a normal shot...

if you don't turn the disc, you are going to get a lot of fade... and if you do turn the disc you have to worry about it not fading.

a lot of this is nose angle sensitive... and it is exaggerated into the wind.

when i want a straight shot into the wind, i generally take something semi-flippy but with a predictable fade and throw it with more hyzer than i would in calm situations. i let the wind help flatten the disc and force its nose down even more. if i do it well the disc will rise to flat and hold nose down with a late fade. if i am a little off the disc will turn and hold a gentle S.

one thing i have learned about headwind play is that if you start it flat/anhyzer, it is MUCH harder for the disc to flex out of it at the end than a shot that starts hyzer and happens to turn. this is due to variable nose angle as the disc's direction/orientation changes.

the best example i can find of this is with a semi-broken in dx roc. i find these will handle headwinds up to around 15-20 mph and fly nearly dead straight if thrown with a hyzer flip.

one thing to keep in mind about slower discs... and it's more about faster discs... faster drivers will be a LOT more squirrely into the wind and be much more likely to take off and skip on a hard fade or to get turned and hang/float/dive way right.

out of the newer drivers i think the fastest of the straight flyers into the wind is probably the x-talon as it is more of an older-school design and will fade predictably without being horribly overstable.

when i want a straight shot into the wind, i generally take something semi-flippy but with a predictable fade and throw it with more hyzer than i would in calm situations. i let the wind help flatten the disc and force its nose down even more. if i do it well the disc will rise to flat and hold nose down with a late fade. if i am a little off the disc will turn and hold a gentle S.




I don't think I've heard anyone say this before. More hyzer than in calm situations to get the disc to rise up to flat. The few times I got headwind shots to go straight must have been hyzer releases. Makes sense. Gotta to go out an try that with a few different discs to see which one(s) work best for me.
Thanks.

it also depends on how strong the wind is too. i think there does reach a point where you need to get an overstable disc and put hyzer on it, too. this happened to me in vacaville california... i was throwing hyzer flips with an orc into a very stiff headwind coming off the lake, which is a disc i generally never turn over with a clean toss. my beast, even with lotsa hyzer just went the way of the anny.

i always figured a shot into the headwind makes your disc act like it's going faster (if you throw 50mph into a 20mph headwind your disc acts like it would if you threw it 70mph in calm conditions) so faster more overstable discs make up for it. is this correct thinking?

not sure how that idea stands with the theory of relativity and all...

the way i think about it is that headwinds accent nose angles (this is most noticeable when putting). a nose up throw is lifted and pushed more nose up (unless torqued down/over by the thrower). a nose down throw is pressed more nose down and can be knocked downwards.

most players (especially those with sub 400' power that throw high speed champ/z discs) throw with a bit of torque, and the added nose down exaggerates this and causes discs to dive off to the right.

if you are throwing hyzer flips into a headwind, imo, the disc's propensity to fade dominates the disc's ability to resist turn (unless it is a SUPER overstable disc), since a disc will dive over and burn happens within the early part of the flight, even if it is overstable. discs like a max weight z xtreme is an example of a disc that is overstable enough to flex out of nearly anything, but discs of this nature also aren't wise choices for straight flight control drivers in headwinds under 50 mph.

i also find as a whole, that i throw higher when i use headwind assisted turns to give the disc ample time to fade out. e.g. it would take me about 15' of height to throw a dx eagle 360' in calm conditions, but more like 25' to throw it into a 30 mph headwind and get the same D.

Seems like we are going slightly off topic, but..

I'd have to agree with synchrosystem regarding the wind.
My understanding is the higher the wind, the equivalent of more throwing power has been used & the less stable discs act.

That is why my strategy in wind is to throw basically the same line or even lower & flatter (not higher & flippier) with more & more overstable discs as conditions require. eg
(from zero to heaps of wind)
drivers - Orc - Dx Firebird - Champ Firebird
mid - beat dx gator - new Dx gator- champ gator or dx whippet
same with approach / putters with my old - new Rhynos

The angle of attack (nose up / nose down) would seem to be more about air getting under the disc & affecting flight (try it with an ultrastar), which is why I'd prefer to keep them low in the wind to reduce its effects.

In the end it comes down to what works consistently.
This way seems to work for me.