Is it just me, or do the CFRs fly differently from the Pros? My CFR is a 174g and feels lighter than my pro of the same weight. From throwing both, I would rate the CFR as 11,6,0/-.5,2 and the new Pro as 11,5,0,3 and a beat Pro as 11,5,0,2. My CFR has more glide and less stability and almost wants to flip. Does anyone else have the same experience or is it just me?

I don't have the cfr yet, but the pro seems heavier to me than it actually is. I need to get me a cft though. I can't seem to throw a bad shot with this Wraith.

My experience has been: The pro will flip more than the cfr when both are thrown flat. However, my pro is a 174 and my cfr is a 175. That may make the difference. They both stood up flat when thrown into a little head wind and glided forever. About the same distance overall for both plastics.

Its simple physics...

"H"/EliteX/Proline plastics dome more when they cool, and usually have more surface friction which means they will get more glide and reach deceleration later in flight.

"E"/EliteZ/Champion discs usually have really exagerated features. (IE: Slightly sharper noses, slightly more concave etc.) Those combined with a slicker surface (Less air friction) means they will be harder to flip up from a hyzer, have less glide and will fall off more durring deceleration.

Almost ANY mold will fly slightly different in different polymers.

Just ask David Mac and he'll give you a MUCH better run down than I did here.

Its simple physics...

"H"/EliteX/Proline plastics dome more when they cool, and usually have more surface friction which means they will get more glide and reach deceleration later in flight.

"E"/EliteZ/Champion discs usually have really exagerated features. (IE: Slightly sharper noses, slightly more concave etc.) Those combined with a slicker surface (Less air friction) means they will be harder to flip up from a hyzer, have less glide and will fall off more durring deceleration.

Almost ANY mold will fly slightly different in different polymers.

Just ask David Mac and he'll give you a MUCH better run down than I did here.


That's a really good explanation, however, if you read what I wrote, I said it seems the CFR are easier to flip up, have more glide, and less stability. Which seems to be exactly opposite of what you claim.
I understand your argument. I'm not asking about the physics of material cooling or aerodynamics. I was just wondering if anyone else had the same experience with the Wraiths.

Wow...I misread that one...and that makes your situation that more weird! :p

I was at pekin, IL with my freind pat, and he had his out on the course (mine were still in the mail), and he said that his 173 CFR seemed less stable than his pro 172. Can't verify from me throwing them, but I haven't had any 350+ holes to really rip my new CFR on.

I'll agree. My CFR is a little less stable than my pro which seems weird(CFR is only 1 gram lighter). But they are both great discs. I do prefer the pro a bit better though. Hoping the SB wraiths make it out soon. I think that will be the best of both worlds.

mine were too, but my pro is beating in quickly and the cfr is about the same stability from when it was new.

I am thinking that the pro will replace my pro starfire in a couple of weeks.

So, doesn't that mean that as the pro beats up it will resemble a cfr in flight?

I remember that Dave D. stated before that the pro plastic molds are a little more overstable so that when they break in they will fly similar to a champion or cfr.

Really? This is truly bizzare. Ive got a CFR 164gm SF that is more stabe than my 170 (wich is quite flippy) and about as stable as my 174. The flight plate, like other light wt candys, is flatter, prolly due to settling a bit more as it cools. It seems that there would be less variance like this if the discs were cooled in the mold after injection, but that would take much longer to make discs. Aggressive liquid cooling of the mold would help but would prolly wear out the mold faster. So whatcha gonna do? Just buy bunches and try em all! In any event, as the rims get bigger, the flight plates get thinner and more woobly. I am loving my 169 glow x-out, super flat head Star-Frankien-fire X! Got a 169 and 175gm CFR W comming and will post up soon! (good thread!)

My pro Wraith is definitely less stable than the cfr.
I don't usually have a giant arm, but I threw the pro 172 365 into a 20-25 mile per hour direct headwind.
My cfr is more like an orc to me with more distance. Worked great for a sidearm disc tonight. Too bad I couldn't putt!

Same results with the two discs today. Pro is a lot straighter than cfr for me.

If they release SB wraiths, I'll be first in line to get one of those. Also would love to see SB Starfire-L's. But back to the question...My CFR is more stable with a sidearm release than my pro..the CFR is 2 grams heavier, but my CFR flies like a giant champ firebird. Great into headwind, VERY straight, with a huge fade at the end.

matchu--dave d said that about dx, not pro. pro plastic starts out less [over]stable than dx or champ. i would guess the champ wraith to be more overstable than pro--but do not have a cfr to compare.

The CFR is a lot more stable for me.And I mean stable, not overstable. It goes really straight with no turn at all with a pretty normal left fade at the end, RHBH of course.you can throw it as you would a teebird,its that consistant, for me anyways.I have around 425 feet of technique and I find the Pro wraith to be very flippy and very unpredictable. I really cant believe these are the same disc.

Maybe I just don't have a big arm :(. I find teebirds pretty stable, but the CFR wraith is a bit overstable. It may be the rim, though. I sidearm drive, and have small hands. The champ plastic is kinda hard for me to grip, and I may not be getting as much snap as the pro line, which really sticks in my hand. Cannot wait until Innova releases this in SB.

I threw the candy CFR Wraith today. 170g Pink with Rainbow stamp. Seemed to fly almost exactly the same as my Pro Wraith 171g. I was suprised. I like it, though. If it flies like the pro Wraith and doesn't beat up so fast it'll be great.

I have 4 left, and they are at the Emerald Isle pro shop. Stop by if you are looking for one.

so what's the general consensus... is the CFR more overstable, more understable, the same, or completely different?? it seems people have differing opinions. I throw an Orc max 450' if that's a useful comparison.

I haven't got mine yet (stupid customs) so I am awaiting to see where they might fall in my bag?

cheers

Well, The pro Wraith I threw was a 170 with a pretty good beating on it compared to a new 175 Cfr so Im sure that had a lot to to with the results I found. I too threw the Orc for Max D and I will say the CFR Wraith is as long ,but for me easier to throw due to the 0 turn rating that compliments my teebird so well.Basicly it takes less room to work it.
Of course both these highspeed drivers are only going 50' further than my CE Rocs :(

My cfr wraiths are more overstable than my pro wraiths and all are 171. Seems the same as any other disc as far as difference in stability in plastics. Candy maitains its form and pro flexes causing less stability. SBs will soon rule the world and this topic wont matter as both pro and candy will fall by the waistside.

just got 2 CFR wraiths in the mail from DiscGolf values EXACTLY what I ordered!!!

Thanks again Mark...

these discs are SAH-WEET!!!

My pro Wraith is very stable. I can flip it if I want, and it gets great distance. If the cfr is simliar, I definately want one. Sounds like people are finding consistency issues from disc to disc though.

The first time I threw my CFR Wraith I released it (accidently) with anhyzer and nose down. Needless to say, at the speed which I threw it, it never came out and ended up doing a huge right turn banana for about 370ft. The second time I threw it, into a decent ~10mph headwind, I tossed it high right and hyzer. It held the entire way and piddled out at 350ft because of the loss of distance on the fade.

I need more controlled practice with the disc. However I think it will fit perfectly for what I want it to do. I was basically looking for a more high speed stable replacement for my CFR Starfire so I can throw 400ft plus into a strong headwind. I noticed that the CFR Starfire would turnover into a headwind like a Teebird, and just finish hard left. I feel the Wraith will hold a good straight line into the wind while maintaining the same distance as the Orc. (I just cannot throw the Firebird over 400ft yet.)

I have thrown a few Wraiths (Pro Plastic) and from what I found they fly best when released with hyzer. If I put them in a turn or threw them flat they just turned over and stayed right but if I threw them with Hyzer they flipped up and flew quite a longs ways. Still wont replace my Avengers but a good new disc for the Innova lovers out there with a power arm and hyzer release :D

I recant my previous statement. This disc is about the same stability wise at the Pro plastic. The first day was a bit too windy to judge. I've been throwing since and am throwing farther and with more consistency than I ever have before. Throw it witha bit if hyzer and it just goes forever. And finally learning the x-step after 2+ years isn't hurting either. ;)

CFR is more overstable. Period

I understand the cfr is more stable, but does it get similar distance?

I played yesterday and used them both. The Pro was waaayyy longer than the crf. The pro was finishing really straight too, even skipping straight, whereas the cfr was hella hyzer skipping at the finish. Thanks, Dave!

im suprized at you all!

i think the CFR Wraith has a very noticeable high speed turn where the pro wraith (not beat in) doesnt...

i think the pro goes alot further...
has more glide...
and just is a better disc...

but i still carry the CFR one...
for those wierd holes that i need something to come out of an annie...

Deucey, you have to remember..not everybody has cannon mounted to their right shoulder :D

I've got a pretty good arm and my CFR Wraith's are extremely overstable. I simply can't get them to hold a nice clean line like my Cyclones or Valkyrie. They end up turning left too quickly and skipping for another 30 feet.

I haven't tried a Pro version yet.

Pro wraith, 175 broken in thrown about 100 times.
released hyzer into no wind i can get 420-460
released more hyzer into the wind still does the small S and get 400-420
CFR wraith , 173 into a head wind slight hyzer stays basicly straight slight L fade at the end.
No wind stays straight same release no S unless a tail wind, or into the wind same result's.
I prefer the PRO. Just ordered 6 more before the mold's start changing you know innova.
My 5 cent's
I have only thrown the CFR about 30 X though.
Hope this help's.
RT

I LOVE the CFR Wraiths. I've been throwing Champ Orcs for over a year now and the CFR Wraith seems to get out there just a little faster than the Orcs and are more stable and seem to glide better. Its easier for me to throw the Orcs flat and straight, so they are still my primary driver, but for long helix shots or upwind drives, the CFR WRAITH is exactly what I have been looking for.

As far as the Pro version goes, I haven't tried it very much, but it seems pretty stable although not as stable as the CFR in my opinion.

My cfr wraith is my longer orc as well. Just bought 3 more 172 pro versions cuz they are way longer for me.

I finally got a Pro Wraith today (174). It's more stable than my CFR's (both 174's) and I must say I friggin love this disc.

I initially tested my CFR's against my Cyclones and simply couldn't get them to go farther nor be as accurate. But today I took them all out to a big field and tried again, this time with my new Pro in the bag. Lot's of wind today, strong wind too.

The Wraiths (both Pro and CFR) blew away my Clones and my Firebird. I think I'm finally getting the hang of these things, or maybe the wind helped me out.

Both upwind, downwind, and crosswind the Wraith's outperformed my Clones, Valk, and Firebird.

Anyway, the Pro is more stable overall for me. A fantastic disc.

After the distance competition at USDGC, while they were letting a bunch of other pros throw some across, I grabbed one of the last pro wraiths left. I hadn't thrown a disc all day, hadn't warmed up, and had been toting an 8 pound camera around all day. My hand was severely cramped from holding the zoom lens all day. I let one go on a hyzer and it flipped over and not only did I get it across, it went 40 feet past the water! Afterward, I just about collapsed. My legs were like Jell-o.

CFR is more overstable. Period


Ding ding ding!! We have a winner...also, DiscinDeadHead was right on the money about the differences in the plastic.

I agree 100% with Deuce.

Furthest Throw w/ Pro Wraith on a hole: 412 (give or take 5) on a 425 footer (Findlay,Ohio: Riverbend #7) I've thrown one on another 400 foot hole that reached pin distance and smacked dead-on into a tree, but was showing no signs of hyzering out and looked like it had another 40-50 feet on it at least. (note: in open field I've thrown it 475, but with no control/accuracy)

It absolutely glides once it snaps out of my hand. I know when I have a great drive as soon as it leaves my hand, I can feel the snap and if I've given it the right angle I can tell by feel that it will go dead straight for a long time. I love it.

Now, you compare that with the CFR Wraith. I won't go so far as to say the Proline is better period... but the CFR definitely just doesn't have the distance for me. It flips over far too easily, and I've found that the best use for it is semi-long hyzers. It is INCREDIBLY reliable with sweeping hyzers. I learned very quickly exactly what kind of power I needed to put on it for different distances and it does it very well every time, almost without fail. But in terms of being a distance driver like the Proline... it just isn't in the same class.


-Chris.

It flips over way too easily but you say its reliable for sweeping hyzers? :confused: :confused:
I use mine for giant sweeping hyzers as well, but it is the farthest thing from flipping.

Well... think of it this way... when you throw a sweeping hyzer you aren't looking to snap the disc. You're just putting it out there on a big round line. I throw the big hyzer with the nose well down and try to put it up at the right height and the right angle, and it holds that well.

However if you try to throw it for distance and really put a snap on it it will go right far too easily.

I don't put much snap on the hyzers, so that makes all the difference for me.

I would say that instead of it being flippy, the CFR Wraith is actually really touchy.

I can put it out flat and hard and not have it turn over at all. However, just the slightest bit of break in my wrist and that thing flies the banana route.

I have tried throwing it into a left to right headwind and it held up really good.

I would say that instead of it being flippy, the CFR Wraith is actually really touchy.

I can put it out flat and hard and not have it turn over at all. However, just the slightest bit of break in my wrist and that thing flies the banana route.

I have tried throwing it into a left to right headwind and it held up really good.



You know, that probably is a better way than I said it. It isn't necessarily flippy, but if I even BARELY put the nose above my intended release angle... flip city.

-Chris.