I just got back into DG recently. I used to play alot in the early '90's. So I've bought a lot of new plastic and today I decided to take them all to a local soccer field and put 'em to the test.

This isn't very scientific. I just wanted to see for myself if these new discs are really worth the hype that they generate.

The new stuff:

2 CFR Wraiths (174's)
DX Orc (175)
DX Teebird (150)
Quarter K (171)

The old stuff (these discs are about 10 years old and pretty well beat in)

Cyclone 2 (174)
X Clone (175)
Roc (175)

Again, not very scientific but assuming I had pretty consistant form on every drive here's what I got after about 10 drives upwind and 10 drives back downwind. The center of each soccer goal was my target area.

Upwind my Wraiths, Cyclone, and QK flew roughly the same distance on my best drives. The Wraith won for max distance but only by a few feet. The Clones hold a better line.

Downwind my 150 Teebird flew farthest by about 20 feet and my Orc came in second. The Wraiths, QK, and Clones were basically even +/- a few feet. The Wraiths are a little too overstable for me so far, as is the QK, maybe I need to get used to them and try throwing them out a little flatter. My Orc I've learned is understable, which is good to know.

My Clones still win for holding a line, they do what I want them to do everytime.

So in the end this leads me to believe less in the hype of new disc technology and more in my own technique and form. Still, discs being as inexpensive as they are it's hard for me not to buy the latest and greatest and see what it's all about.

I forgot to mention my Roc which didn't get quite as far as my distance drivers on average but was still a contender.

Maybe as my form improves I'll find the Wraiths and the QK's to be all that they're hyped up to be. I like them but they haven't proven to be any more reliable or better overall than my old bag of Clones.

At any rate it's nice to get in a wide open field and learn how your plastic fly's.

There you have it. What do you think?

JA

Except for the roc whcih you should keep as a midrange disc get rid of all those old ones. There is a ton of plastic that missed that flyes better than what you got. You should try the champions and z plastic lines they last longer and there is about 20-30 discs that are out that you should try. If you are just getting back into to it get some valkiries, vikings, xs, flashes, starfires. This will help catch up with everyone else.

Indeed. I've thought aboud trying some Valkyrie's and Firebirds and some new Discraft plastic as well but my disc collection is already getting rather large.

My only point is that I'm not so sure it's all in the plastic that you choose to throw but rather in your raw talent with any given mold of the same general weight.

Every mold was better than the others on certain drives. No mold held any clear superiority over another.

I'm going to try this again sometime, paying particular attention to form and technique. Alot of this probably also has to do with the Clone's being more "a part of me" since I'm so used to them. If I play with any given mold long enough it may become my best disc.

If I play with any given mold long enough it may become my best disc.



Might have a point there.

Is that you Bob?

Good to know. I was still throwing my cyclone until I lost it. I still enjoy learning new discs, but I find myself gravitating to the older stuff.

Some stuff you missed that may be worth trying is the wild cat and avenger. XS also gets good distance for me.

Keep the cyclone. I've heard good things about if from knowledgable people, and right now I totally agree with you that it flies how you want it. Too many discgolfers get sucked in to the new discs (the high speed ones) and thats not what distance and disc golf is about. (record is still held by the valk, followed by the teebird, and xs, not champion or elite z ones. For people who have 450ft power consistently and want to take the time to learn to throw a new high speed disc, they can try. But the older discs is what I've noticed the top rated players throw. Stick with the old stuff, and you won't be falling into the "that disc is too flippy" category of so many wannabe distance throwers.

That said, the new discs do have be thrown differently than the old ones, in order to fly at their full potential. (meaning nose angles, speed, snap, spin, hyzer/anhyzer angles, and hieght : not torque).

Matter of fact I just got a new Cyclone Pro D today and it's just as reliable as my old ones!

My Wraiths and QK are definitely flippy. I've got to get a better handle on throwing them. I think there's a lot of potential there.

It's not that we get sucked in; some of us enjoy trying new stuff. If I lose my money disc, I will grab some of the newer stuff until I can replace, say a cyclone.

Incidentally, I haven't tried the z cyclone. My regular (old) cyclones were flipping a bit from hitting obstacles.

Ya, z cyclone seems like a differnt disc compared to the one I have.

I wasn't saying there is anything wrong with buying the new discs and trying them out, I do that all the time. The thing is when I'm practicing my drive, I'm throwing my older discs not the new ones.

JA, i agree with your sentiments on older plastic.

imo, discs like clones, gazelles, etc. are friendlier at holding a controlled line than alot of the newer discs. it is also much easier to make them work (especially in lower end plastics) as they have more air friction and low cruise speeds, that the majority of players can reach/exceed.

a lot of the design characteristics on the slower discs also give them a little more inherent stability and predictability in finish whereas a lot of the newer discs rely much more on speed and gyroscopics rather than wing shape.

the talon is probably the newest of the discs that still utilizes a lot of the characteristcs of discs from the 1990-1999 era.

the real draw to the newer discs for a lot of people is the distance they can fly at low heights. a starfire, wraith, orc, flash, etc. can break 400' at around 8-10' of height, where a clone will take 25'+ to carry the same distance, and generally can't carry much beyond 300' at the 8-10' of height range. however, it's also easier to get discs from that era to lift on their own as well as hold nose down with a lot of height under them.

on the overall distance end, i've found that each jump in drivers has added ~3-5% of golf D onto the previous generation. e.g. someone who can throw a pro starfire 410' can likely throw a d cyclone around 350'.

i place the distance breaks since 1993 somewhat like this:
cyclone/gazelle/cheetah
eagle/teebird/xl
valkyrie/xs
beast/wildcat
orc/starfire/crush/flash

i believe the wraith is hitting the next little distance jump.

if you dig your clones, imo, keep them in the bag. predictability and accuracy are really the things that keep discs around well beyond their era, especially discs that are inherently high speed stable by design. i know a LOT of bigger throwers that still keep a teebird/predator/firebird/etc. in their bag for when they absolutely, positively need to know exactly where it's going.

i think a lot of it nowadays is that the majority of players that started in the past few years haven't explored a lot of the lines discs are capable of flying on, and many are enamored at the ability for a disc to fly at very low height.

for me personally, i used to use height to limit my distance and so i have very mixed feelings on this as while i like a 6' high line drive to go a long ways, it also removes a lot of my ability to control the distance...

I practice with my newer stuff to break it in a bit. They seem to fly better after being slightly broken in, especially Gateway products. I was about to throw the demon in the lake (on purpose this time) until i hit a few trees; it's humming now.

the talon is probably the newest of the discs that still utilizes a lot of the characteristcs of discs from the 1990-1999 era.

That explains why I dig my talon; it has broken into a somewhat stable (to slightly overstable) flyer almost like a broken in cyclone 2. (I said almost! Don't flame me!)

Blake,
where does the avenger fit into your analysis? In with the starfire, orc, flash? <font color="blue"> </font>

i think the avenger is the closest thing to a faster teebird [especially x], which many agree to be the pinnacle of the distance/speed vs. control ratio. i actually replaced my teebirds [control] AND beasts [distance, low shots] with the avengers. it is working out very well for me not to have to make that choice.

I've gone to the avenger too, but my z avenger seems very overstable. I still carry an x avenger as well. I am gonna order a new x avenger. So I will have a very overstable, straight, and annhyzer avenger (z, beat in x, and new x).

if what i heard was true about the avenger (being a predator bottom with a wildcat top), the disc parts itself are from the 2002 beast/wildcat era.

i haven't thrown it enough to know what the max d is like, and i have only thrown the x version. was longer than a pred for me, but i don't have enough arm to throw a pred very straight unless it's very broken in.

blake-the avenger seems to have a slightly wider rim than the pred, which i use for overstable shots. the bottom of the wing is also different [less concave] than the bottom wing of the pred. i have no idea myself about the top being similar to anything

I agree that some older pastic like cyclones and XLs still serve a purpose today. I was more consistent and accurate in the 300-350 range when I was throwing clones and am considering going back to them.

Blake, I'd say the Avenger is every bit as far as the Flash and the Orc. The Avenger in the x plastic is pretty fast and has great glide. The z plastic is much more predatorish.

I've gone to the avenger too, but my z avenger seems very overstable. I still carry an x avenger as well. I am gonna order a new x avenger. So I will have a very overstable, straight, and annhyzer avenger (z, beat in x, and new x).



My X Avengers (172g first runs) flew like a faster JLS when slightly beat in. They are a touch flippier than a JLS (at the same weight), so I jumped from a 168 gram JLS to a 172 Avenger for the same line with more D.

Z Avengers are a whole different disc, it seems. They became WAY more stable than the stability ratings show because Z Plastic takes longer to beat in. I just use a Z Avenger when I want to throw a crush but question if I can get it out there (Can being potentially, not consistantly.). I'm reasonable in my guess that I max with my Talon around 325-350, my Crush(no longer throw, however) around 350-375, and my avengers in the 360-385 range. In an open field, I can get to 400 but I don't consider that a golf shot as where it's going to land is anybody's guess. Those numbers are my open field golf shot numbers where I take just a hair off to at least know I'll be near the fairway. Subtract 50 feet from those distances if we're talking about consistantly hitting fairway.

back on topic...

I put the Avenger in Z as the same class of disc as the Crush (which is prolly in there with the flash, etc). It's just a Crush that'll glide a touch more.

I put the Avenger in X as the same class as a JLS, but that's just my one corner case of throwing it.

Just wanted to chime in with my experiences on the Avenger.

The Elite X avenger is capable of some of the most sick hyzer flip shots I've ever thrown. The Elite Z avenger has almost no flip at all, at least for my power level. You can turn it over, and get some serious flex shots, but it's always going to finish left (RHBH). The difference between the two makes them almost two different discs as far as flight lines go, but the exact same feel in the hand.

I am still in love with my Beast, and my Valkyrie, but they don't get thrown half as often as they used to. The Z avenger has replaced Champion beast, and the X has replaced the Pro Valk i used to use for those shots.

I want to try the Pro Wraith, but I think it would be the exact same place in my bag as my X Avenger, so it seems redundant.

Ah someone that agrees with me ! I was laughed at for comparing the z avenger to a predator.

That's great info Pat; I never really learned the Crush because a friend wanted mine, so I traded it for a Flash.

Also, the x avenger is slightly different than the Wraith. The wraith seems to go by the rule that less is more. It took me a while (and reading forums) to learn to take a little off and let the disc do the work.

I carry both an x avenger and wraith. The wraith is relatively straight at the moment, the avenger flippy. If I didn't have the wraith, I'd get another x avenger to have a straight disc.

It's not that we get sucked in; some of us enjoy trying new stuff. If I lose my money disc, I will grab some of the newer stuff until I can replace, say a cyclone.

Incidentally, I haven't tried the z cyclone. My regular (old) cyclones were flipping a bit from hitting obstacles.



I hated the Z cyclone. Way more overstable than the 1.5 posted on it. This disc flew almost like a firebird or monster and got no yardage. The cheap cyclones with the 0 stability fly way farther and straighter.

So it turns out my new 175 DX Valkyrie is blowing them all away. Actually my Orc is the longest driver but unfortunately it doesn't seem to go where I want to put it.

So it turns out my new 175 DX Valkyrie is blowing them all away. Actually my Orc is the longest driver but unfortunately it doesn't seem to go where I want to put it.



If you're looking to try out some more discs in that stability range you can also try the Viking, Orion, Starfire, Flash and X Avenger (I find the Z is noticeably more overstable).